Indian Naval Discussion

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Rupak
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rupak » 09 Apr 2011 00:06

Let's be clear that the Swallow class of the 1980s and what the IN are purchasing are different ships. The design that the IN has bought is larger than the Gaeta class. It is based on the Yang Yang-class in service with the ROKN. At 60 m and 900t is significantly larger. As with all modern MCMV they are expected to be capable of both hunting and sweeping.

In any event most countries use electronic gear which is a combination of local technologies and those supplied by established internationals suppliers.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby akshay » 09 Apr 2011 01:27

Shipyards are already up to the brim so I thought it would be great to have some Original Italian equipment other than the otoMelara gun

well i take heart in the fact that we get to build 6 MCMVs here ...so maybe we can 'study'

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby paultd » 09 Apr 2011 22:21

Eye on China, Navy boosts Eastern Command
http://iafnews.nuvodev.com/posts/eye-on ... n-command/

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby putnanja » 10 Apr 2011 00:14

paultd wrote:Eye on China, Navy boosts Eastern Command
http://iafnews.nuvodev.com/posts/eye-on ... n-command/


Please check before posting. This article has already been posted twice on this same page!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby JTull » 10 Apr 2011 00:57

putnanja wrote:
paultd wrote:Eye on China, Navy boosts Eastern Command
http://iafnews.nuvodev.com/posts/eye-on ... n-command/


Please check before posting. This article has already been posted twice on this same page!


Everyone these days is promoting his own website by serial copy of the PTI articles. Perhaps BR should subscribe to the newswire directly.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby akshay » 10 Apr 2011 14:54

ok one more query .....Shivalik class ...why are the second and third ship delayed? instead of ship building catching synergy it seems like the second/third ship has taken an entire extra year. we should be building ships faster rate rather than loosing steam
Shivalik took 6 years by that rate the second should have been commissioned this year looking at launch dates

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pranav » 11 Apr 2011 18:02

Pak adding submarine muscle as India dithers - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 938834.cms

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby P Chitkara » 11 Apr 2011 18:15

A question to gurus - how capable are the chinese subs being acquired by pak?

This is wrt to the augosta 90 that they already have - how much of a capability boost do they offer over the augosta?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 11 Apr 2011 19:53

Chinese Sub giving capability boost over Augusta 90 ??? They may not have such a good boats. Any gurus about the capability of Chinese Subs ? Particularly their large no of convestional ones.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 11 Apr 2011 20:04

The Yuan class subs are new types built by china and has lot of Kilo influence on them ( almost a Kilo clone ) , it certainly is a large conventional sub and AIP would help it improve its underwater endurance , with sub launched anti-ship missile adding to its lethality.

During peacetime these subs could also be used by PN to gather acoustic signature of IN ships and subs and something China would greatly benefit from since PN would have no qualms sharing with them.

Its a bad news for IN planner that our neighbour is adding quality sub in numbers which should give PN sea denial capability at the least and our dwindling submarine force along with delays in Scorpene construction just doesn't make it any better for us.

PN is gradually building its force where it would hurt IN the most , make no mistake the Yuan can go on the offensive drive if called to do so and it wont be surprising if PN follows the 6 built with follow on order of advanced Yaun types , the Chinese are also known to be working on advanced Pumpjet variant of Yuan.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby rahulm » 11 Apr 2011 20:34

The article mentions a total of 3 Arihants. The Chakra is additional.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Khalsa » 12 Apr 2011 08:13

Ha Ha ha guess who I found on the deck of Baku aka Gorshkov aka Vik
Note I said Baku. I can't believe its him. Unless I am seeing things.

https://picasaweb.google.com/R.Igor.W/TfZPFJ#5262179780537919842

Hint: He may have been present at the Mig-29 Baz induction ceremony

Cross posting in Misc Pics as well

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Apr 2011 09:39

for those not in know, who is this powerful gentleman ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ManishH » 12 Apr 2011 10:55

KC Pant ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Khalsa » 12 Apr 2011 12:27

and Manish takes the cake away. 8)

Yes it is KC Pant and unless I have got it wrong, this must be a very old pic.
Now what on earth was he doing on Baku and does our interest in VIK_A go back to the days of Baku ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Khalsa » 12 Apr 2011 12:39

KC Pant from the Mig-29 ceremony (for comparasion)
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Special/Features/Baaz/007.jpg.html
CAS ACM La Fontaine (RIP) also in the pic.

Back the KC Pant pic on the Baku. The Indian Brass on KC Pant's left seems to be IAF and the Army man looks to be the Army Chief General Rodrigues which means the pic must be dated 90 to 93 if General Rodrigues was army chief at that moment. Anyone remember if KC Pant was defense minister at that time ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Apr 2011 13:05

maybe he was leading a defence delegation to Russia and touring the important factories and airbase/ports with the hosts.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ManishH » 12 Apr 2011 13:12

KC Pant held defence portfolio during Rajeev govt. He had a fallout when Narasimha Rao took over. The pic must be '87-'89

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby narmad » 12 Apr 2011 15:18

Indian navy ponders new minesweepers

A cost negotiation committee remains in discussion for a final price for two vessels with the Kangnam Corp. Shipyard in Busan, South Korea. More ships would be built in India under technology transfer deals.
The deal with KCS could be worth up to $1.02 billion, a report in The Hindu newspaper said.

The Indian navy still is considering an option to buy two decommissioned Osprey Class minesweepers from the U.S. Navy.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby narayana » 12 Apr 2011 15:36

Pranav wrote:Pak adding submarine muscle as India dithers - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 938834.cms


The best option now would be to go for another 3 scorpenes as the P-75I will take another 10 years atleast to join,we have a option of 6+6 at same price,with mazagaon docks already gaining expertise in this,this would be most feasible option

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 12 Apr 2011 15:54

Launch of Trikand schduled for late May, will be 65% ready at launch. Still waiting for delivery of weapon systems to be installed.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ManishH » 13 Apr 2011 13:38

The Indian Navy is all set to get its first batch of all women Observers

Would love to see one of our BR stories involving them. Maybe even a futuristic one where an woman navy observer operating an N-UCAS to takes out Hafiz Saeed.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sum » 13 Apr 2011 13:39


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby andy B » 14 Apr 2011 17:41


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Christopher Sidor » 14 Apr 2011 20:12



It is interesting to note the place where they are conducting the exercise, in Luzon Strait. To fully appreciate the significance of the Luzon Strait, I have given two maps over here. First of all see where Luzon Strait sits, between Taiwan and Philippines. Observe where India and Japan, specifically Okinawa is. I have highlighted both in red boxes.
Image


The second is the map showing major sea transportation routes between Western Pacific and Indian Ocean.
I have highlighted the route which will fall under the guns of PLAAN/PLAAF in red. The remaining routes can be used by Indian ships or ships carrying Indian cargo, like oil and gas from Russian far east without too much trouble.
Image
The original image showing sea transportation routes can be viewed over here

If we super-impose the images we see the significance of the place where India is holding this exercise. Also note that the Luzon Strait is one of the choke points, part of the first island chain and second island chain which have the PLAAN/PLA strategic experts have identified. The points which prevent, PLAAN ships from reaching the Western Pacific Ocean. Marinetine and anti-submarine aircrafts flying from northern Philippines and/or southern Taiwan can easily cleanse the whole strait of any lurking submarines. They also can provide choke points and disrupting the flow of ships. After all the strait is only 250 kms across.

With quite a significant chunk of oil and gas for India, from Russian far east, travelling these sea transportation routes, we find the Indian navy being positioned over here.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratik_S » 14 Apr 2011 21:05

Its interesting to see IN practicing smack in the middle of a trade route which is most likely to be attacked by China. Its a good statement for IN to make. But still IN on its own won't be able to stop the PLAN in South China Sea just the same way PLAN can't do anything in IOR.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 14 Apr 2011 21:38

IN used to fly from Rajali to SCS in the mid 80s to monitor the PLAN subs. Maybe they do it still.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby akshay » 15 Apr 2011 01:01

Pratik_S wrote:Its interesting to see IN practicing smack in the middle of a trade route which is most likely to be attacked by China. Its a good statement for IN to make. But still IN on its own won't be able to stop the PLAN in South China Sea just the same way PLAN can't do anything in IOR.


The Navy is the only hope incase PLAN attacks and it has to stand on its own
..considering our army/af will be distracted on the western side...Only the Navy will have to stop the oil flow to PLAN ..that's why they warming up to Burma and Malaysia.. we got 2-3 years to build up.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 15 Apr 2011 03:34

ramana wrote:IN used to fly from Rajali to SCS in the mid 80s to monitor the PLAN subs. Maybe they do it still.



Interesting data point. that far back, eh?

wonder which route they took.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Apr 2011 08:46

they could fly over the international shipping lane that passes south of singapore, ie over the malacca strait.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 15 Apr 2011 09:48


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 15 Apr 2011 10:41


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby karan_mc » 15 Apr 2011 11:23


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 15 Apr 2011 14:15

the thing with the PLAN is that any surface fleet threatening india has to come through malacca or go a long long way around... by then any serious invasion fleet will have to have come past a number of navies en route including unkil. even assuming that the others are colluding, unkil would be very unhappy with a large PLAN surface fleet on the move

subs are a different matter though

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 17 Apr 2011 13:49

India to order 8 minesweepers from S. Korea
India is all set to place an order with a South Korean shipyard for building eight minesweepers for its navy in its quest to overhaul its existing fleet of such specialised warships, defence ministry sources say.

The ministry has zeroed in on Pusan-based Kangnam Corporation as the lowest bidder that is technically qualified to execute the order for which Italian firm Intermarine was among the shortlisted companies.

"The defence ministry has initiated cost negotiations with Kangnam Corporation that is expected to be completed in a month or two, when the order will be finally placed," a senior defence ministry official told IANS.

Though the final price is yet to be fixed, it is likely to be in the region of Rs.3,000 crore ($670 million) for each of the eight warships, defence ministry sources have indicated.

As per the tenders for the Mine Counter-Measure Vessels (MCMV), Kangnam will be asked to build the first two warships, following which Goa Shipyard Limited will be commissioned to build the rest six minesweepers under licensed technology transfer.

Minesweepers are specialised warships capable of detonating sea mines.

These eight vessels will be capable of playing the roles of both minesweepers and minehunters and hence will lie somewhere in between the two in terms of its capabilities, the official said.

The contract, which was originally scheduled for signing this month, got delayed as the Kangnam's competitors went to the Central Vigilance Commission (CVC) against its selection.

But after the defence ministry and the navy explained the rationality of Kangnam's selection as the lowest bidder to the CVC, the matter was settled and the cost negotiations are now progressing well, he added.

The navy currently operates 12 minesweepers of the Pondicherry/Karwar class that are equally divided between the two operational Mumbai-based Western Naval Command and Visakhapatnam-based Eastern Naval Command for deployment.

The Pondicherry/Karwar class of warships, built in the 1970s and 1980s, are fast approaching obsolescence and need to be replaced within this decade.

Kangnam will deliver the first two MCMVs by 2016 and Goa Shipyard Limited will complete its side of the contract by 2018.

The navy is also considering buying two used Osprey-class minesweepers from the US that were decommissioned by the US Navy in 2007. The US Congress has already cleared the prospective sale of these two vessels to friendly countries.

The Obama administration had in 2010 offered these two minesweepers to India, which had expressed its interest in acquiring them in April 2005.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 17 Apr 2011 15:08

Vice Admiral DK Joshi to take over as Western Naval Command chief

ANC and WC will get his good experience on both fronts.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 17 Apr 2011 15:49

ramana wrote:IN used to fly from Rajali to SCS in the mid 80s to monitor the PLAN subs. Maybe they do it still.


Rajali was commissioned in the mid 90s and the 142 were commissioned by late 80s around 88 or 89 onlee. Before that it was the 38 and the super conies onlee. Neither had the range or the endurance to get to SCS from the main land and have a reasonable patrol time.


So I think that you wanted to say mid 90s and not the mid 80s.

The P8 will make a return to those time as it lacks the endurance of the 142s. You can argue that with IFR the range and endurance can be addressed. But, just how many IFR assets will be available with the IN for them to make a great difference. The range issue will remain even if you are based out of A&N islands. The alternative is to have a presence in Vietnam it self with Singapore and the A&N acting as a back stop.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 17 Apr 2011 18:32

India Eyes German Help on Sub Upgrade

Image
India Eyes German Help on Sub Upgrade
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI
Published: 15 Apr 2011

NEW DELHI - Construction delays to four French-designed submarines have led India to reverse an 11-year-old decision and seek German help to upgrade four older subs.

Estimated to cost about $500 million, the upgrade of the four HDW T-1500-class subs will replace their weapon control systems, data links, torpedoes and missiles. The Indian defense ministry wants the German submarines to be upgraded at Indian facilities with technical assistance from HDW Germany.

The Indian Navy has seen its fleet of usable submarines shrink from 21 in the 1980s to 14 today, while the Chinese sub fleet, including nuclear boats, grows, said a Navy official.

In 2000, when the Navy decided to buy the new Scorpene submarines, it shelved plans to upgrade the T-1500s, which have now been in disrepair for several years.

The French-designed boats, now planned or under licensed production by Mumbai-based Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL), are more than three years behind schedule, a senior defense ministry official said.

Under the $3.9 billion contract signed in 2005 with France, construction of the first three Scorpenes began in December 2006, December 2007 and August 2008. The MDL contract said the six subs were to be delivered annually beginning in December 2012. Instead, the first one is now scheduled for delivery in 2015.

Besides the Scorpene troubles, the Navy is also seeing delays in its $10 billion purchase of air-independent-propulsion submarines, the official said. The world's sub builders are expected to be invited to bid on the job, called Project 75I, in the next three months, the Navy official said.

The T-1500s were built under an $89 million deal signed in 1983. HDW's shipyard in Germany built two of the T-1500s in 56 months apiece; the other two were built under license by MDL, taking 98 months and 116 months respectively.

Later in the decade, New Delhi blacklisted HDW because of alleged bribery in the sub deal. The ban was lifted after an inquest by India's Central Bureau of Investigation ended without resolution.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby D Roy » 17 Apr 2011 21:29

so each minesweeper is coming in for 500 mil plus. this is exactly what i was pointing out in a discussion with srai many moons ago. the days of 2500 crore destroyer are over and India is not taking advantage of its cheaper manpower by keeping the productivity of its yards low ...

Also there is this school of thought in the navy that one hi-tech ship is better than 10 medium ones. which is why they are going along with huge delays and cost escalations.

if this is the philosophy we are going to adopt in the military buildup then how the hell do we expect to counter china which is churning out PSCs like pancakes using its superb shipbuilding industry?

this import raj and best tech chahiye raj is simply making a developing India procure weapons at developed country prices and not allowing the indigenous eco-system to scale up because of piecemeal orders of "very hi-tech" boats coming in at fantastic prices.

The writing is on the wall gentlemen. I'll give the weapons industry in the west another 10 maybe 20 years. After which they would have simply priced themselves out of the market and the chinese would become the new russia. India has the chance of becoming the new france or even america twenty years from now, if it only stopped subsidizing foreign weapon makers and built its own base by understanding that quantity does have a quality of its own.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Christopher Sidor » 18 Apr 2011 12:53

Lalmohan wrote:the thing with the PLAN is that any surface fleet threatening india has to come through malacca or go a long long way around... by then any serious invasion fleet will have to have come past a number of navies en route including unkil. even assuming that the others are colluding, unkil would be very unhappy with a large PLAN surface fleet on the move

subs are a different matter though


That is no longer the case. With the String of pearls reaching is logical conclusions, Chinese ships might not need to cross the Malacca straits all together. They might be already present there after this decade is over. We have already seen PLAAN ships in action off the coast of somalia. So going forward this presence will only grow.

We should not be working under the impression that chinese ships will come from their bases in south china sea. Rather we have to start planning that they will already be present in the Ocean which bears our name.


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