Indian Naval Discussion

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SNaik
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 27 Apr 2011 16:57

sum wrote:
indranilroy wrote:I have a newbie question here ... I have always read about how the propellers of a sub are never exposed. If a US sub calls into a foreign shipyard, how is this achieved? Or is this compromised based on trust? I mean the Russians ofcourse know the signature of our subs.

When one of the Russian ships ( cant remember which) was berthed in London in the 60s, British tried to steal a lookie at the prop to figure out why it was the fastest of its time. They sent in a MI-6 frogman to collect some pics of the propeller. The poor guy turned up headless the next day.

So, am assuming that this interest in prop design might be there to the present day and navies might be employing max security when berthed in foreign ports?


That was Elizabeth II Coronation Review and the ship was Sverdlov cruiser.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby andy B » 27 Apr 2011 18:21

SNaik wrote:
sum wrote:When one of the Russian ships ( cant remember which) was berthed in London in the 60s, British tried to steal a lookie at the prop to figure out why it was the fastest of its time. They sent in a MI-6 frogman to collect some pics of the propeller. The poor guy turned up headless the next day.

So, am assuming that this interest in prop design might be there to the present day and navies might be employing max security when berthed in foreign ports?


That was Elizabeth II Coronation Review and the ship was Sverdlov cruiser.


OT but an interesting read just in case

http://www.submerged.co.uk/buster-crabb.php

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Apr 2011 18:47

erm I suspect the system running feral and filling and emptying ballast tanks - would be a life threatening condition when dived.

just our luck that our Akula had to have this new system. after all these glitches are fixed at our cost , Rus will happily make a few more for herself.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 27 Apr 2011 19:15

SNaik wrote:New reason for delays of Nerpa has surfaced. Software glitches in Molibden-I central command console of ship systems. Month ago the system started to fill and empty ballast tanks without operator's input and had to be switched off. Apparently the glitches are of a floating character, therefore harder to remedy.

I bet that Arihant II will be in the Bay of Bengal before the Nerpa!!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 27 Apr 2011 19:37

Singha wrote:erm I suspect the system running feral and filling and emptying ballast tanks - would be a life threatening condition when dived.

just our luck that our Akula had to have this new system. after all these glitches are fixed at our cost , Rus will happily make a few more for herself.


Don't worry, they've already had their share of fun with Dolgorukiy

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby koti » 27 Apr 2011 20:30

Austin wrote:That was just a stop gap measure ( and a desperate one ) during Kargil war since Viraat as usual was in refit. Since SHAR could take off and land vertically but that was a desperate solution for desperate moments to make use of Harrier.

Viraat is like Lipstick on a Pig , it does not have a strong air component , most of the time its in docks for maintenance or refit and when it was badly needed during Kargil and 26/11 it was in refit , frankly speaking we are no better with Viraat then we are without it.


It is understood that it was a stop gap measure. And also that Viraat is in bad shape.
The point I inted to convey was the potential of the Harrier(VTOL jet in general).

That ability actually gives amazing pain in the neck for the enemy naval strategists. We can form kind of a denial zone of the Harrier range in more then one location.

Consider an example: We have say 10 container vessels that we can nationalize during emergencies and some 20 Harriers at our disposal. We deploy two armed Harriers per eace cargo vessel and deploy the vessels in calculated positions(with some sort of frigate level escort or some kind of adhoc radar sonar arrangement).
What the enemy gets is the very very credible threat to its vessels in these 10 locations, Not just the ones covered be our Viraat, Vikramaditya IAC (counting only 3 but fat more competent).

Looking at something like this, I believe we have a lot to gain if we can get our hands on the decomissioned Harriers from UK.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Apr 2011 21:36

what you are suggesting is a defensive picket line of ships each with two harriers and basically just a means to refuel them and load a few AAMs and nothing more. I am afraid these would hardly be able to generate four sorties each / day and can easily be overwhelmed piecemeal.

concentration of force and mobility is what gives carriers their true power.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby koti » 27 Apr 2011 22:45

^Few AAMs or an Exocet or few depth charges or a torpedo sir. What you said about vulnerability of these platforms is true. Equally true is the strength of a Flotilla with nuclear subs and carriers.

I will put on a different perspective.
Scenario: If a navy has excess helicopters capable of launching AShM's, torpedoes and having some sonar or radar, it would be of use to it to put these on vessels at calculated points and collect sonar, radar and other data. And to do some opportunistic fishing.
Now lets replace the helos with Harriers. These can give Radar updates and also attack or stalk a non CBG naval group consisting of subs, destroyers or corvettes. :twisted:
I am not advising this kind of a setup when alone dealing with our adversaries with a naval strength of say PN. But, this type of an asymmetric capability can boost the defensive setup when faced with a bigger threat.

Singha ji, the setup I am suggesting is not to position 10 cargo vessels in a line against an approaching Carrier battle group. It is to distribute these 10 vessels so as to free up our CBGs to deal with the approaching CBGs.

It could be like a container vessel with 2-4 Harrier's being part of some 3-4 frigate formation taking on a similar sized of slightly larger Non CBG formation.

The approach may appear silly when we think of such a setup to deal with smaller navies. But it actually makes sense to me when we will be faced with a combined naval strength some three times that of ours equipped with multiple CBGs.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 27 Apr 2011 23:49

koti wrote:The approach may appear silly when we think of such a setup to deal with smaller navies. But it actually makes sense to me when we will be faced with a combined naval strength some three times that of ours equipped with multiple CBGs.


I agree with your "silly" confession and submission , as Singha has rightly mentioned the reason and there is the logistics and protection/viability/sustainability of such cargo fleet in question. ( heck the enemy would just start sinking all the commercial cargo ship in event of war thinking of such a possibility )

If that was possible and as you say as an add on over CBG the Admirals of America would have build a tanker fleet of 100 ships for jsf and cut their CBG force to half , not a bad idea in the era of defense cuts ;)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby koti » 28 Apr 2011 00:07

I was not keen on building a fleet of cargo ships sir. :)

I was keen on pointing a unique potential of Harriers. And that we will not lose this if we invest in Harriers from UK.

I would be glad if you may address a few points I have made(prev post) in defense of this capability.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby koti » 28 Apr 2011 00:17

heck the enemy would just start sinking all the commercial cargo ship in event of war thinking of such a possibility


If a situation arises where in IN would be considering use of Cargo ships to host Ac, I do not think there will be any commercial shipping activity in IOR. So, the enemy taking down our Cargo ships fleet is not a threat.

Even if it is the case, it will add more pressure on them to take out both IN ships and the cargo vessels which might probably housing Aircraft that can upset their large destroyers.

That caused a Deja vu to the original intent of housing Harriers over Cargo vessels.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby koti » 28 Apr 2011 00:24

sum wrote:
SNaik wrote:New reason for delays of Nerpa has surfaced. Software glitches in Molibden-I central command console of ship systems. Month ago the system started to fill and empty ballast tanks without operator's input and had to be switched off. Apparently the glitches are of a floating character, therefore harder to remedy.

Holy $#%^...think the Arihant will arrive before this Nerpa beast. ( Have already kissed chances of ever seeing 2 Russki SSNs in IN service goodbye after this repainting saga of a 80% complete SSN)


To be honest, most of the critical systems we have in place in Arihant are developed by studying what the previous generation Russian NSubs had.
Nepra on the other hand should be using enhanced and new systems that are better then previous systems in place.
It is all but obvious that they will have teething problems. As time goes on(can't avoid this unfortunately), better systems will prevail.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 28 Apr 2011 07:32


SSridhar
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 28 Apr 2011 08:02

Craig, please post the above in Piracy thread.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 28 Apr 2011 08:07

Meanwhile, some naval exercise, unlike Malabar, Indradanush etc. off Nagapattinam coast.

Simulated Homeland Naval Exercise on
Dispersal of enemy resources through pinching movement marked one of the few military tactics drilled here in a simulated homeland security exercise, by the Kodiakkarai Naval detachment here in Kodiakarai in Vedaranyam on Wednesday. The exercise, as part of ‘Operation Sachet', the three-day coastal security exercise under way under the Eastern Naval Command for the entire Eastern coast and its units, sought to simulate challenges to homeland security through a ‘terror attack' along with the security reinforcement on the high seas.

A mock drill for combating a rear-end terror strike on a building was staged by the Kodiakkarai Naval detachment here in a bid to simulate a land-oriented strike.

The combat exercise involved dispersal of an attacking team in a pincer movement along extreme flanks with no direct frontal attack in order to engage with the enemy.

The exercise involved a simulation of off-shore interception and checking of fishing boats and security in the high seas, including checking for the structural soundness of fishing boats by the Navy.

According to an official, every battle was unique, throwing up its own challenges, and there was no perfect simulation of a combat front. A de-brief from the frontline units on the ‘tangible, achievable and possible' interventions to the existing operations and logistics would be prepared at the conclusion of the exercise on Thursday.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 28 Apr 2011 11:40


JE Menon
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby JE Menon » 28 Apr 2011 13:27

Thanks Chacko. I love reading these dry fact stories which may have been missed if someone did not link it. Some interesting stuff there. Marcos in Baglihar Dam area for example :)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 28 Apr 2011 13:53

^^^^^ I added Commander Gangupomu Murali's image for your viewing pleasure. I will post such stories when it comes.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sum » 28 Apr 2011 14:08

IN doctors in Orrisa in anti-Naxal ops?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 30 Apr 2011 11:05


Kapil
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kapil » 30 Apr 2011 15:45

Doctors of all 3 services cross-train and cross-post to get experieinces which they would otherwise not get in their own service.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 03 May 2011 01:38

Second indigenous carrier a long way off
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article1819080.ece

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 07 May 2011 09:22


Akshay Kapoor
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 07 May 2011 15:39

Any news on INS Satpura's commissioning? Wiki showed it being 2010 Nov, then this March.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pranav » 08 May 2011 07:56

x-post from Armored vehicle thread:

Pranav wrote:Israel's Trophy tank defense system:

"Trophy is design[ed] to form a 'beam' of fragments, which will intercept any incoming HEAT threat, including RPG rockets at a range of 10 – 30 meters from the protected platform."

An alternative/competitor to the U.S. designed Raytheon’s Quick Kill.

http://militaryanalysis.blogspot.com/20 ... eaker.html


See also:

http://www.israelsituation.com/2011/03/ ... ves-lives/

http://quitenormal.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... errorists/

Seems to be an important new development.


It appears that this system involves a shooting out a broad beam or a cloud of pellets into the flight path of the incoming missile. Such "shotguns" would be mounted at various angles to cover the armoured vehicle. One wonders whether it would be capable of stopping a fast missile like the A2G Brimstone.

This principle would also apply to defending ships against anti-ship missiles.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shalav » 08 May 2011 19:03

Pranav wrote:
This principle would also apply to defending ships against anti-ship missiles.


Hence the CIWS you find on warships. :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 11 May 2011 10:20


jai
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby jai » 11 May 2011 12:27

Kapil wrote:Doctors of all 3 services cross-train and cross-post to get experieinces which they would otherwise not get in their own service.


Armed forces medical services is a common service to all three forces and it is not uncommon to have the same officer operate across army, air force and navy. They put on the ranks and uniform of the corresponding service.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Anuj A » 11 May 2011 15:27

Does anyone know where I can watch/buy the full series of Nat Geo's "mission navy"? Preferably free online! Would really like a watch apparently they even show MARCOs at work.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 12 May 2011 00:47

Good article on coastal security post 26/11:

http://forcenewsmagazine.blogspot.com/2 ... t-sea.html

...

n terms of securing this vast expanse of sea, before November 26, the ICG was responsible for, in the words of director general ICG, Vice Admiral Anil Chopra, “Continuous surveillance of over 2.2 million sqkm of India’s EEZ, and respond to distress calls in the Indian Search and Rescue Region which spans over four million square kilometers.” Territorial waters in India, which are merely the aqueous form of the country, were the responsibility of the marine police. Using the analogy of continental security to explain coastal security, a naval officer says, “Within the borders of India, the ‘dissuasive’, ‘deterrent’, ‘preventive’ and ‘curative’ functions of the State are carried out along a ‘degrade path’ upon which the principal mechanism is the police. When the police fails, the State proceeds down its ‘degrade path’ and calls upon its ‘armed police’, then its ‘Paramilitary forces’. It is only once all these mechanisms have failed that the State calls upon its military. Since the laws of the Republic of India apply in full measure to uphold the majesty of the State throughout the 12-mile limit of the territorial waters of India, the principal mechanism by which the State must carry out its ‘dissuasive’, ‘deterrent’, ‘preventive’ and ‘curative’ functions, remains the police. The degrade path here will be the same, and the paramilitary option, if required, would be exercised through the deployment of the Indian Coast Guard. Thus, for the government to proceed right to the end of its ‘degrade path’ to the navy, within its territory, can only be an interim solution and certainly not a permanent or even a long-lasting one. The mere fact of variations in the physical character of the territory (‘land’ versus ‘water’) can hardly be taken to be a valid determinant. If, for instance, a violation of the country’s laws were to have occurred in Nainital lake, should the government call in the navy, simply because the medium of the territory is water? Why then should it be any different within the sovereign-territory of India that happens to abut its coastline?”

...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 12 May 2011 10:23


Gagan
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gagan » 12 May 2011 13:10

jai wrote:
Kapil wrote:Doctors of all 3 services cross-train and cross-post to get experieinces which they would otherwise not get in their own service.


Armed forces medical services is a common service to all three forces and it is not uncommon to have the same officer operate across army, air force and navy. They put on the ranks and uniform of the corresponding service.

Very minor nitpick Jai,
The officers on deputation to the other services continue to wear their own uniform and their ranks.

For example an officer with the Army Medical Services on deputation to the airforce or the navy will continue to wear the army uniform, and the army rank.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Will » 12 May 2011 15:59

Rakesh wrote:Second indigenous carrier a long way off
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article1819080.ece


What happened to the defense ministers claim that IAC-II would be started as soon as IAC-I was at an advanced stage of construction???????????? :x :(

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 13 May 2011 02:25

Will wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Second indigenous carrier a long way off
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article1819080.ece


What happened to the defense ministers claim that IAC-II would be started as soon as IAC-I was at an advanced stage of construction???????????? :x :(

sometimes we do have to disregard the mediaphobic news. they are only meant for article consumption. OTOH projects are going on according to the plan.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 13 May 2011 23:24

Found this link that shows the MiG-29K/KUBs being built for the IN at MiG's facility. Don't remember having seen this link being posted here earlier. Found it on Keypubs forum
.
MiG-29K being built link

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby suryag » 13 May 2011 23:26

^^^ thanks Kartik ji, so strikingly similar to our SDRE LCA line, I mean the equipment and the support for the bare fuselage

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 13 May 2011 23:35

Kapil wrote:Doctors of all 3 services cross-train and cross-post to get experieinces which they would otherwise not get in their own service.


All doctors in the services are basically Army Officers. They all have Army Medical Corps personal numbers.

Some of them are then sent to the other services where they are given the personal number from that particular service.

Thus a IN or IAF doctor would have two personal numbers.

From the IN or IAF they can be deputed for a tenure or two to any other service. In this case they may or may not don the uniform of the other service, most continue to work in the uniform of their service except in forward areas.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 14 May 2011 11:09


rajatmisra
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby rajatmisra » 14 May 2011 13:57

Any idea if the navy is contemplating getting retired sea harriers at a "throwaway" price from the UK, as some reports suggest?
If they are indeed coming very cheap, would it make sense to just have them in any case and also go for an upgrade as and when required?

koti wrote:
heck the enemy would just start sinking all the commercial cargo ship in event of war thinking of such a possibility


If a situation arises where in IN would be considering use of Cargo ships to host Ac, I do not think there will be any commercial shipping activity in IOR. So, the enemy taking down our Cargo ships fleet is not a threat.

Even if it is the case, it will add more pressure on them to take out both IN ships and the cargo vessels which might probably housing Aircraft that can upset their large destroyers.

That caused a Deja vu to the original intent of housing Harriers over Cargo vessels.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gaur » 14 May 2011 14:48

^^
No chance of that happening IMO. It will be real pain in the a** to bring them to SHAR standard and that too for only a few years.


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