Indian Naval Discussion

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K_Rohit
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby K_Rohit » 01 Jun 2011 14:20

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Pratyush- good point, and I dont disagree with that at all. I just dont know what infrastructure is required to convert Viraat to STOBAR. The only thing I can come up with is arrested landing gear. And that cant be such a big deal. Will it?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 01 Jun 2011 15:13

Austin wrote:SNaik what kind of combat management system does Trikand class uses , Sigma-E ?

No, Trebovaniye.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby akimalik » 01 Jun 2011 15:16

K_Rohit wrote:The only thing I can come up with is arrested landing gear. And that cant be such a big deal. Will it?


The arrestor mechanism needs a massive steam driven piston which would be able to absorb the kinetic energy of the landing a/c. Needless to say, the heavier the a/c the more massive this arrangement.

Additionally, moving from supporting a 11 ton a/c to a 18-20 ton a/c may require re-strengthening of the deck (along with associated structural re-strengthening).

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby K_Rohit » 01 Jun 2011 15:44

akimalik wrote:
K_Rohit wrote:The only thing I can come up with is arrested landing gear. And that cant be such a big deal. Will it?


The arrestor mechanism needs a massive steam driven piston which would be able to absorb the kinetic energy of the landing a/c. Needless to say, the heavier the a/c the more massive this arrangement.

Additionally, moving from supporting a 11 ton a/c to a 18-20 ton a/c may require re-strengthening of the deck (along with associated structural re-strengthening).


Thanks. That explains it.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 01 Jun 2011 18:04

akimalik wrote:
K_Rohit wrote:The only thing I can come up with is arrested landing gear. And that cant be such a big deal. Will it?


The arrestor mechanism needs a massive steam driven piston which would be able to absorb the kinetic energy of the landing a/c. Needless to say, the heavier the a/c the more massive this arrangement.

Additionally, moving from supporting a 11 ton a/c to a 18-20 ton a/c may require re-strengthening of the deck (along with associated structural re-strengthening).

To add to that IMO the runway is not long enough to support Mig-29k plus lifts need to be replaced or upgraded to handle them.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 01 Jun 2011 18:47

Singha wrote:imo a reasonable sized 'invasion' fleet would be
1 x new LPHD of the Mistral/Juan Carlos size ie full featured TFTA type (full complement of new medium helis, LCAC, a few LCH)
2 x smaller rotterdam/trenton sized LPD (full complement of new medium helis, LCAC)
5 x LST (build no more, spend money on new ships & LCAC above)
3 x fleet tankers with POL for the ships + diesel for the embarked vehicles
1 x supply ship with ammo & food
1 x hospital ship
1 x survey ship for seabed mapping and exploration
2 x MCMV
1 x CV for air cover
2 x DDG/FFG for surface/air threats (with oto127mm and vulcano 100km shells)
3 x P28 type corvettes for ASW & screening
1 x SSK with chariot/chamber for SF insertion
1 x SSK for ASW
1 large prison ship to round up and bring back the POWs :)

the SSK/CV/DDG/FFG would reach first with one oiler and sanitize the area
MCMV and survey ship next to clear mines and map routes
LST/LPHD next with body of invasion fleet screened by a few FFG , accompanied by supply ship and oilers
hospital ship in the rear

and its not as if IJN Yamato or Bismark would emerge from the fog suddenly but IAF/IN LRMP patrols would no doubt scope things out much before the ships set sail.


Singha,

This is great but does not sound realistic. Except USN NOBODY can/has such a fleet.

K

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 01 Jun 2011 18:52

Rahul M wrote:because while the BMP can float, the tanks, whether T-90 or something else, can't...
tsarkar wrote:T-72s can swim
I don't think that's right.
It can swim when sufficiently lightened and ford up to the height of the snorkel. http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/501/9.jpg http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/716/f214.jpg/ exercise in sikkim

Rahul M wrote:now, why am I asking all these questions?...
But the navy currently only has the capacity to transport a little less than two battalions on expeditionary missions.
He's right, i'll explain

Rahul M wrote:now, we have 5 large LST's (3 shardul class and 2 similar magar class) and an LPD (jalashwa/trenton), the shardul's/magar's can transport 11 X tanks + 10 X AFV's + 500 X troops the jalashwa can transport ~ 800 troops (we have bought 4 LCM8 with 200 troop capacity each) that's 3300 troops + 30 each of tanks and AFV, about a brigade strength. what am I missing ?


Logistics

11 x tanks + 10 x (trucks not AFV's) + 500 x troops represents peak capacity. Where do these 500 troops dine end of day or end of tomorrow or end of day after tomorrow? Onboard the ships or messes.

When the 11 tanks exhaust their ammo+fuel end of day, then what? We replace 11 tanks with 10 tanks + ammo+fuel for 2 days.

When the 10 tanks exhaust their ammo+fuel end of tomorrow, then what? We replace 10 tanks with 9 tanks + ammo+fuel for 3 days.

For one week of sustained ops, we're down from 11 to 5 tanks+ammo+fuel for a week.

Similarly, once the 500 troops exhaust their infantry ammo+food end of day, we need to replace with 200 troops + food + ammo for a week.

Once the ships drop their initial supplies, they'll need to make resupply runs, and they'll be vulnerable to attacks from alerted enemies.

Given these logistic constraints in mind, the good Admiral's numbers are fairly accurate.

cheenum wrote:What we want is the capability to do something ala Normandy!!!
The British, for all the logistic support available to them, could not support their forces for more than a day at Dieppe. Massive US support enabled Normandy.

The British Pacific Fleet, bolstered with RN forces re-deployed from Europe to Pacific, and the strongest fleet ever put out to sea by RN, operated in the peripherals because of an insufficient logistic train http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Pacific_Fleet

From http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact.asp

The Military Sealift Command operates more than 110 ships around the world. These ships carry the designation "USNS" (United States Naval Ships) and are not commissioned ships. Also, they are crewed by civilians. Some MSC ships have small military departments assigned to carry out specialized military functions such as communications and supply operations. MSC ships carry the prefix "T" before their normal hull numbers.


Compare this with our support fleet.

So Normandy like capabilities is no joke. Do not underestimate logistics. There is a whole cadre of personnel that goes behind sustaining a navy!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 01 Jun 2011 19:22

Kersi D, except for the big LPHD and one small LPD the fleet I listed is already there within IN. ofcourse one can add a few more merchant navy type cargo ships if a pier in working order can be captured.

for independent ops even a small ground force that would be offloaded by my little invasion fleet would need a whole kitchen sink of stuff, including comprehensive POL , ARVs, repair workshops, field hospitals, ammo dumps, artillery units, fwd ground bases for helicopters, FAC/LOH type helis, C4I units, UAVs ...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 01 Jun 2011 21:39

Comparing the US logistics ships with whatever available in India -

Ammunition Ships T-AE
Combat Stores Ships - T-AFS
Fast Combat Support Ships T-AOE
Dry Cargo/Ammunition Ships - T-AKE
Army Container Ships - T-AK
Air Force Container Ships - T-AK
Maritime Prepositioning Ships - T-AK, T-AKR and T-AOT
Aviation Logistics Support Ships - T-AVB
Large, Medium-speed, Roll-on/Roll-off Ships T-AKR

we have nothing in these classes. So other than the ammo carried in Magar & Jalashva classes, our tanks don't have any other source of ammo.

Fleet Replenishment Oilers - T-AO

Of these, we now have four. However the catch is all our four ships carry aviation fuel and LSHSD for ships.

Aircraft at sea burn copious amounts of fuel. The reason why Viraat – or any other carrier, US included, carry less-than-full-aircraft-capacity is because the carrier, and its accompanying tanker cannot carry fuel for all on-board aircraft. That is why Viraat and RN carriers typically carry 4-6 SHAR, because fuel is sufficient only for sustained operations for only these birds.

I speculate two of our four tankers will carry only aviation fuel for our IAC and Vikramaditya aircraft complement respectively. The two remaining tankers will carry fuel for ships.

Do we have any specialized ships carrying fuel for tanks & trucks or kerosene + LPG for cooking dinner for troops ashore? None other than what is carried aboard Magar & Jalashva.

How does one distribution these products? Through Off-Shore Petroleum Distribution System - T-AG and Modular Cargo Distribution System – T-AK Do we have any? No.

Fleet Ocean Tugs - T-ATF We have couple for pulling ships hitting sandbars or grounded by tide.

Rescue and Salvage Ships T-ARS – None

Hospital Ships - T-AH - None other than Survey Ships masquerading as hospital ships. Can they provide medical facilities for division sized force? No.

BTW carriers and aircraft burn so much fuel that enemy submarines try to stalk and hit carriers+tankers when they're refuelling. Another way of taking out a carrier group is by taking out the tanker.

Also, during the economic crisis of the late 80's early 90's, when Laxman Ramdas made his famous, “we have to do much more with much less” speech, Viraat in those days had operational costs of Rs 1 Crore per day at sea. We had to stop operating the ship because of reduced funding.

Reminded me of an old joke. One officer, admiring the girls dressed in party attire at the Navy Ball quipped, “this is a much better form of much more with much less”.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 01 Jun 2011 21:43

^^ Interesting insight tsarkar ... Good Post.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 01 Jun 2011 23:15

tsarkar wrote:
cheenum wrote:What we want is the capability to do something ala Normandy!!!
The British, for all the logistic support available to them, could not support their forces for more than a day at Dieppe. Massive US support enabled Normandy.

So Normandy like capabilities is no joke. Do not underestimate logistics. There is a whole cadre of personnel that goes behind sustaining a navy!

I didn't mean it as a joke, this is a capability which we should aspire to posses one day. We can't get there straight away, we need to take baby steps, but we need to start now. We need to augment our fleet tankers, oiler, resupply ships, troop carriers, hovercrafts, medium lift helos, attack helos, landing crafts etc...

In Normandy, allies operated something called PLUTO (Pipeline under the ocean) for moving Fuel from Britain to France. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pluto

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 02 Jun 2011 03:58

this is a capability which we should aspire to posses one day


Hmmmmmm...................

One could actually get a Ph. D., in logistics, at a Univ on a base. Check out dla.mil.

The closest India could have got is via the MMRCA effort.

BTW, with FMS, India will become a part of the US DLA effort.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 02 Jun 2011 07:54

I once read about former defence secretary Robert McNamara, during World War II, he was an USAF officer, he along with his team revolutionized the USAF logistics chain. After the war when he went back to civilian life, he repeated the same feat in Ford, eventually rising to become it president. He left Ford to serve as Defence Secretary under JFK and repeated the same feat during the Vietnam war... Indian Defence Forces can definitely learn from these case studies and evolve a logistics chain. We have to see it to beleive it, Indian Ordnance Corps has a phenomenal logistics chain to supply our troops. We just need to take it forward to the next level by making sound investments and quicker decisions.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sankum » 02 Jun 2011 07:59

http://mod.nic.in/reports/AR-eng-2011.pdf
MOD report 2010-2011 online.
Downloaded it but could not open as the file is damaged.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 02 Jun 2011 09:01

same here, need to check in SCRIBD etc. looks like it is deliberately done

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 02 Jun 2011 09:32

sankum wrote:http://mod.nic.in/reports/AR-eng-2011.pdf
MOD report 2010-2011 online.
Downloaded it but could not open as the file is damaged.

there is a virus in the file... hence it says corrupted. I am scanning the file as it downloads and it is taking for ever... let us see what happens

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 02 Jun 2011 09:46

chetak wrote: quote="Gaur"Update on Livefist regarding alleged Russian snub during joint Indo Russian Naval Exercise.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/05/re ... els-2.html
[UPDATE @ 12.54PM / MAY 30] The Indian Navy has sent an official report on Russia's snub, to India's Foreign Ministry. An MoD officer said the Navy was furious about the way the Russians pulled from the INDRA exercise. A senior source indicated that even the face-saving table-top exercise, referred to in the India Today piece didn't actually happen.


Miffed at the russian fighter being knocked out of the Indian contest??


^^^

The vodka seems to have addled their collective brains.

These ex commies seem to have no marketing skills. :evil:



http://www.dailypioneer.com/342912/Miffed-Russia-upsets-India.html


Miffed Russia upsets India
June 02, 2011 9:55:49 AM

PNS/PTI | New Delhi/Moscow

Longstanding defence and strategic relations between India and Russia are under strain with Moscow calling off a scheduled joint naval exercise at short notice in an apparent move to express its displeasure over New Delhi exploring global markets for weapons procurement.

The Russian decision has been slammed by country defence experts and the media while the Indian Navy is also unhappy with the development.

The incident took place late in April when five Indian Navy warships sailed for waters off Vladivostok for the joint naval exercise. The Indian contingent reached Vladivostok and made a ‘port call’ before returning home after Russians abruptly called off the exercise.

This action was sharply criticised by Russian defence experts who said calling off the exercise by Moscow was “simply stupid when several countries are waiting in queue to hold such an exercise with India.”

While the Russians later said the exercise was called off due to the nuclear disaster in Japan following the tsunami, sources here said on Wednesday that several Russian warships were later seen carrying out combat drills in the waters off Vladivostok.

Peeved at the snub, the Indian Navy lodged a protest along with a detailed report to the Indian Defence Ministry, sources said adding the External Affairs Ministry was also apprised of the facts. Incidentally, the schedule for the joint exercise was planned months in advance, they said.

The development has put a question mark over the joint Army exercise ‘Indra’ between the two countries later this year. Focussed on honing anti-terrorism drills in urban and rural scenario, the two sides have held some preliminary meetings to plan the exercise but the dates are yet to be finalised.

It was learnt that Russia, which is the biggest arms supplier to India, is unhappy with New Delhi now exploring the Western world for procuring weapons and critical spare parts. Regular supply of spare parts from Russia has been a problem for the last one decade since the disintegration of Soviet Union and the issue has cropped up many times in talks between top political leadership of both countries.

Moreover, Russia now prefers to pitch for its equipment and the Indian security establishment decided some years back to expand its vendor base to inject more competition and get a better deal for lesser money, sources said.

A top Russian defence expert has said Moscow is not taking defence interaction with India seriously and described the cancellation of a naval drill recently with it as “simply stupid.”

“While other nations wait in the queue to develop military interaction with India, Russia is not behaving seriously. There is no need to be surprised that India is more and more turning towards western partners —- at least more serious and stable,” said Mikhail Barabanov, editor of Moscow Defence Brief monthly, was quoted as saying by financial daily ‘Vedomosti.’

He said: “The Russian decision to cancel war games with the main military-technical partner is simply stupid.”

Barabanov also noted the Russian and Indian Air forces have never carried out joint drills, “probably because the Indian pilots on their Russian built SU-30MKI fighters will easily win over the Russian pilots, with inferior aircraft and less flying experience.”

“It is noteworthy that Indian pilots with SU-30MKI fighters have participated several times in joint drills with USAF and other major Western nations,” he said.

Another major daily Nezavisimaya Gazeta notes the Russian decision to cancel a war drill at the last moment is believed as Moscow’s “snub” to India for rejection of MiG-35 fighters in the IAF’s tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), in which French Rafale and European Eurofighter Typhoon have been shortlisted.

Tatiana Shaumyan, director of Centre for Indian Studies of the Science Academy’s Oriental Institute, said the “poor planning” of the Russian side may be detrimental to the defence cooperation.

“Russia and India have several decade-long traditions of geopolitical, trade, economic and defence co-operation. The military-technical cooperation had been the one of the main pillars of the Russian-Indian relations. And now in this crucial sphere a ‘snag’ has occurred probably due to bad planning by the Russian side,” Shaumyan said.

She cautioned that it could affect the interaction of armed forces of the two “friendly States.”

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 02 Jun 2011 11:03

Russian press criticizing like this is indeed a new development, hope our political leader take it up at appropriate levels. It looks like ruskies want to throw a tantrum and get something else from us, all along didn't they know that India was going to go for a western plane?!? this is juvenile behavior to say the least, this behavior is the exclusive domain of our friend neighbor to the west i thought?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 02 Jun 2011 13:00

K_Rohit wrote:I just dont know what infrastructure is required to convert Viraat to STOBAR. The only thing I can come up with is arrested landing gear. And that cant be such a big deal. Will it?


Angled deck


K_Rohit wrote:- Why cant we use the Viraat as a through-deck carrier? We can fit lesser number of aircraft and potentially limit the number of parallel operations, but we have more capable aircraft.


because then you lose the ski-jump which you need to launch the planes in the first place
Last edited by GeorgeWelch on 02 Jun 2011 13:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 02 Jun 2011 13:05

akimalik wrote:The arrestor mechanism needs a massive steam driven piston which would be able to absorb the kinetic energy of the landing a/c. Needless to say, the heavier the a/c the more massive this arrangement.


That's the catapult that has the steam-driven piston.

The arresting mechanism is hydro-pneumatic (no steam)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 02 Jun 2011 13:07

^^^

Virat already has one. Back from the days when she was a CTOBAR ship.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby akimalik » 02 Jun 2011 14:18

GeorgeWelch wrote:The arresting mechanism is hydro-pneumatic (no steam)


Hi George, thanks for the correction. That is what I intended to say, however, I guess you can call it a slip-up at my end.
At the same time, I do believe that this is not a simple mechanism to add within the ship. I tried (unsuccessfully) to find a reference of its size.
It would have appreciable weight & space penalties.
Hence, I still doubt that it would have been retained post the ski-jump refit of Viraat.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 02 Jun 2011 15:45

tsarkar sahab, you are confusing between the carrier strike group and expeditionary strike group. the later is the amphib group operated by USMC and the support ships you have listed operate with the former, i.e the carrier fleet and in some cases as part of strategic sealift capability of USN. those are not deployed directly as part of amphib assault forces.
the LHD's and LPD's usually carry enough supplies for their troops and are replenished when needed. clearly, if each and every item on that list was really absolutely necessary for an amphib force, the good admiral won't have claimed that we have ability to move 2 battalions worth of troops, would he ? because, as you pointed out, we have none of the items in the list.
here's a typical composition of an expeditionary strike group of USMC. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... px-Esg.jpg

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 Jun 2011 16:37

provided we get ourself a couple of Mistral ships and one trenton type new ship, the MEU above is achieveable. easier said than done I suppose - LHDs cost time and money...

and we'd need some serious helicopter power of the LCH-N and EC725/CH47 variety embarked on the airwings.

a decade away - at best, more reasonably 2025.

first we must fix the SSK, SSN and AAW problems.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 02 Jun 2011 16:39

the problem is that MEU is only one battalion + support elements. since we can't afford the huge amount of air support that khan does, anything less than brigade strength is unsustainable for us. may be useful for island policing in A&N but little besides.

in our case, a reasonably robust amphib force wrt TSP has to include a carrier, both for air cover and for helo's.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 03 Jun 2011 10:48

Warship Technology has good write up on P-17 Frigate and P-28 Corvette Program read it before it vanishes.

P-17 Stealth Frigate Herald step change for Indian Navy

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 03 Jun 2011 11:15

Austin wrote:Warship Technology has good write up on P-17 Frigate and P-28 Corvette Program read it before it vanishes.

P-17 Stealth Frigate Herald step change for Indian Navy

Guys, I have uploaded this article as a PDF on Scribd. Enjoy.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/56991175

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 03 Jun 2011 15:30

India regrets cancellation of naval drills with Russia - admiral

The Indian Navy is disappointed with Russia's last- minute cancellation of joint naval drills in the Pacific Ocean in April, Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Nirmal Verma said.

The Indian Navy task force consisting of three destroyers - INS Delhi, INS Ranvir, and INS Ranvijay, corvette INS Kirch, and tanker INS Jyoti called at Pacific Fleet's main base in Vladivostok on April 18-23.

Russia reported the arrival of Indian warships as a friendly visit, but the Indian side claims the program of the visit originally included joint drills, which were cancelled by the Russians at the last moment.

"Vladivostok is nearly 5,000 miles away from here [India]. So for us to plan a deployment of ships all the way there takes a lot of planning and costs lots of money to deploy ships at such distances," Verma said in an exclusive interview with RIA Novosti.

"So to that extent, there was an element of disappointment where exercises were not held at the final stages," he added.

According to the Indian admiral, the Russian authorities explained that the cancellation was made in view of the incidents that had taken place in Japan at the time: the double natural disaster and the following nuclear crisis.

However, a source at the New Delhi-based Institute for Defense Studies and Analyses said the cancellation was a "bad sign" in the bilateral relations and both sides should take "corrective steps."

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Avid » 03 Jun 2011 17:00

If anyone wants the P-17 article from Warship Technology -- here's a download link of the 2 pages in PDF format
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3346049/P-17-Article.pdf

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 03 Jun 2011 17:17

pretty fascinating and unknown to us details about the stealth measures taken.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Boreas » 04 Jun 2011 08:57

The shadow of a Mig
In late April the Indian destroyers Delhi, Ranvir and Ranvijay arrived at Vladivostok for joint exercises with ships from Russia’s Pacific Fleet. The exercises were planned a year ago. But according to the Times of India, the Indian ships were not welcomed with open arms. No, all the proper customs on such an occasion were observed — the honor guard, the orchestra playing hymns and marches, the meetings with admirals and senior officers. Even so the exercises did not take place. The hosts excused themselves saying they did not have enough ships. Supposedly the ships had all been sent to Japan to help control the situation around the crippled nuclear power station at Fukushima.

Owing to the tragedy in Japan, which had already cost thousands of lives, and to complications to do with the Kuril Islands, to which Tokyo had responded sharply, the Russian admirals in Vladivostok had decided to calm the nerves of their southeastern neighbors and not irritate them by flying the Russian flag so close to the disputed territories. Instead of the planned naval exercises, the Russian admirals suggested trainings on maps and computers — so-called command-staff trainings.

This hardly persuasive, if not absurd explanation for the non-participation of Russian naval ships in the joint exercises became immediately obvious when the Indians learned that Pacific Fleet ships had in fact sailed out to sea and conducted trainings — only without their guests from the distant subcontinent. Then the question arose: why didn’t the Russian admirals warn their Indian colleagues about the change in plans ahead of time? One doesn’t treat friends and partners that way.

Naturally, all of this offended Delhi. The Indians were even more distressed when they discovered (though in plenty of time) that the land portion of the joint Indra 2011 exercises would also not take place. These exercises too had been planned a year ago: trainings equivalent to ones conducted in India. Again, there was no clear explanation from Moscow as to why the trainings had been cancelled.

Certain experts maintain that these actions on the part of Russia are a sort of response to the Indian government’s decision concerning the finalists in a tender to supply medium fighter aircraft. The Russian multipurpose MiG-35 had been a contender. Also taking part in this tender to deliver 126 jets for a sum in excess of $10 billion were the American F\A-18E\F Super Hornet made by Boeing and the F-16 Fating Falcon made by Lockheed Martin, the French Rafale manufactured by Dassault Aviation, the Swedish JAS-39 Grippen produced by SAAB and the European (Great Britain-Germany-Italy-Spain) Eurofighter EF-200 Typhoon.

After months of negotiations and familiarizations with the technologies at the various plants participating in the tender, of comparative trainings and tests of all the fighters in the sky over Indostan, Delhi chose only two aircraft: the French Rafale and the European Typhoon.

This choice, so they say, deeply offended Russian military and defense officials. Moreover, they learned that the Indian leadership had announced a tender to supply spare parts, radars and missiles to repair, modernize and militarize planes bought earlier from the USSR and later from Russia. In Moscow the consensus was and is that since Soviet/Russian planes are part of India’s Air Force, there can be no tender — supplies of spare parts and components should be delivered by Russia. Especially since Moscow has not transferred the intellectual property rights for building and arming the MiG and Sukhoy jet fighters sold to India earlier. Of course, there are flaws in the servicing of these Russian-made planes, but they need to be overcome; their existence does not mean that the time has come to stop all cooperation with the producers.

Then again, Russian-Indian military-technical collaborations have never been cloudless. One recalls the reconstruction of the aircraft carrier Gorshkov/ Vikramaditya, which was delayed for several years because the original price stated in the contract in no way corresponded to the amount of work done on the ship. Also not forgotten are the problems with the delivery of Talwar class frigates, with the modernization of Il-38 spy planes, and with other projects, including air-to-air missiles for multipurpose Su-30MKI jet fighters. But the contract for these fighters was a model of cooperation, like that for T-90C tanks, for the supersonic anti-ship BraMos missile, for a fifth generation jet fighter and other promising projects.

There are problems, but there always are — that’s life. India is not putting all its eggs in one basket. It is trying to diversify its military purchases, to buy not only military technology but also licenses to produce that technology in India, so as not to depend on anyone in a crisis. And that is sensible.

To take offense because you were not chosen is, of course, possible. This often happens with marriageable brides. But one needs to be able to endure those unpleasant moments in life. One needs to find the energy to go on. A contract that does not go through is not the end of the world. There are many other contracts under the sun, and much more work to be done.

Unfortunately, not all the people making these decisions realize this. Sometimes they are governed by their emotions in the moment. But those emotions will pass.

Still, there is something more nervous-making than the cancellation of the joint Indra 2011 exercises. A year ago Russian President Dmitry Medvedev met with Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari in Tashkent. A few months later they met again in Sochi, and recently for a third time in Moscow. The Kremlin press service reported that the two leaders “discussed regional security matters and the prospects for bilateral cooperation”. In what area the two sides planned to cooperate was not mentioned. One should bear in mind that up until then Moscow and Islamabad had no military-technical ties. Primarily because Delhi was opposed. But the Kremlin has greatly valued the steadily increasing export of military technology to the Indostan Peninsula. Now, after the failure of our MiG-35 in the Indian tender to supply multipurpose jet fighters, some shifts may be in store. But so far there is no hard evidence to prove this.

However, according to an officer of one of the Russian power structures, the most likely and obvious reason why the Navy drills were cancelled - organizational. In April, process of shifting Russian Navy headquarters from Moscow to St. Petersburg started, also restructuring is going on in the Defense Ministry departments, engaged in international cooperation.

Neshant
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Neshant » 04 Jun 2011 09:54

Boreas wrote:Now, after the failure of our MiG-35 in the Indian tender to supply multipurpose jet fighters, some shifts may be in store. But so far there is no hard evidence to prove this.


Nobody in India is going to buy into this blackmail.

The "buy our jets or else" won't work because India is emerging as a global economic power.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 04 Jun 2011 11:10


Sid
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sid » 04 Jun 2011 11:28

BS article. what about host of diff progrmms India have with Russia.

Ans US was also eliminated from race.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 04 Jun 2011 19:35

Hiccups will be there until the restructuring of the Russian military industry is complete.We have both legacy Russian weaponry and new systems.We are experiencing problems in logitic/spares support because of the RMA taking place in Russia.Putin is doing his best to achieve this and is amalgmating many competing military industries to reduce overheads.Some are relocating to new places and systems that were built in former Soviet countries are either now going to be built in Russia or new agreements with those nations will be signed.To kick start the new strategy,a huge rearamament of the Russian military is taking place,with large orders for many old/upgraded and new weapon systems.

Fortunately,the FGFA is new and on track and is the key new system receiving full backing of the state.The Russian refusal to sell China the SU-33 carrier fighter forcing it to secretly acquire an aircraft fron Ukraine and reverse-enginer it,has set back the PLAN's carrier ambitions by a few years.It abhors China's illegal cloning of Russian weaponry as will never sell Pak anything worthwhile of cutting-edge etch.Pak is going to depend more and more upon China and should now be treated as another province of the PRC.Pl. check the post/article in the Strat. Pak thread about China and the Gwadar naval base developments.

http://the-diplomat.com/2011/05/31/how- ... -dreams/2/

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ParGha » 04 Jun 2011 20:29

Philip wrote:The Russian refusal to sell China the SU-33 carrier fighter forcing it to secretly acquire an aircraft fron Ukraine and reverse-enginer it,has set back the PLAN's carrier ambitions by a few years.


Does the PLAN even have carrier ambitions? From most of the literature I have read, the PLAN is more focused on area-denial rather than area-dominance. The carrier ambitions seem to be the ambit of a small faction of the PLAN leadership and think-tanks. Understandig this correctly is all-important for the future of the IN.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 04 Jun 2011 20:43

when a lot of money is thrown to the spenders, all factions will spend and try things out. plus it keeps others guessing as to where is the real focus.

PLANs prime need at the moment is more 093 SSN to protect their own missile subs and interdict the shipping lanes of US's east asian allies.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 04 Jun 2011 20:48

ParGha wrote:Does the PLAN even have carrier ambitions? From most of the literature I have read, the PLAN is more focused on area-denial rather than area-dominance. The carrier ambitions seem to be the ambit of a small faction of the PLAN leadership and think-tanks. Understandig this correctly is all-important for the future of the IN.


Ambitions Yes but capability to make , deploy and employ a carrier would take decades , they are taking small baby steps by trying to learn from what they have and buying stuff and experimenting for carrier based aircraft , eventually we would see PLAN deploying CBG perhaps by 2025.

Philip good to see you back , is there a way to reach you via email etc ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby UBanerjee » 04 Jun 2011 21:49

It abhors China's illegal cloning of Russian weaponry


That's pretty non-credible given the volume of Russian sales to Chinese. It may not be the absolute cutting edge stuff but they're quite willing to part with advanced equipment which the Chinese can engineer- top of the line jets, tanks etc. were all acquired via this route.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 04 Jun 2011 23:33

Neshant wrote:
Boreas wrote:Now, after the failure of our MiG-35 in the Indian tender to supply multipurpose jet fighters, some shifts may be in store. But so far there is no hard evidence to prove this.


Nobody in India is going to buy into this blackmail.

The "buy our jets or else" won't work because India is emerging as a global economic power.


Not just that. Pakis are headed the other way too. Russia can supply whatever they want. Unless it is free or China pays for it Russia will have to worry about Pakis.


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