Indian Naval Discussion
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Come to think of it, if we are able to pack in 8-12 Nirbhays into the P17A, then we would be having a really potent frigate. Each would have 24 Barak-8, 32 Barak-1, 8 Brahmos & 8 Nirbhays. Now this sounds too little. But look at it this way, they seldom would move alone. But a squadron of 3 would field 72 long Range SAMs, 24 land attack missiles & 24 Anti Ship missiles, still each costing less than a full fledged destroyer which should actually called a cruiser.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
With all due respect, BR forum is the only reliable source of information and opinion on our armed forces, and has readers of all age groups, awareness levels and backgrounds coming to read.NRao wrote:LD,
Perhaps you should do yourself a favor and learn to read articles. BEFORE you post things that are very well known and understood on this forum.
Some things may be very well known and understood on this forum by the regular old timers, but its okay for some of them to be repeated from time to time for all the rest of us.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Its been in the offing for a while (since last year). expect yindu's to put in our own stuff in there (weapons etc).Kersi D wrote:Vipul wrote:UK proposes building future warships with India.
Is this just a carrot-and-stick approach to get MMRCA order to Typhoon ?
K
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
bmallick wrote:Come to think of it, if we are able to pack in 8-12 Nirbhays into the P17A, then we would be having a really potent frigate. Each would have 24 Barak-8, 32 Barak-1, 8 Brahmos & 8 Nirbhays. Now this sounds too little. But look at it this way, they seldom would move alone. But a squadron of 3 would field 72 long Range SAMs, 24 land attack missiles & 24 Anti Ship missiles, still each costing less than a full fledged destroyer which should actually called a cruiser.
sir,
you read my mind... this would be a very lethal ship (if ever built)..wonder if the guru's agree with this configuration and if we are planning on doing something on this line
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
at one end we have some JMSDF Haruna/Shirane class DDGs which unusually mounted three helicopters for ASW potency.
at other end we have DDG51/PLAN ships that keep a token heli landing deck for VBSS/CSAR/emergency recovery landings and no hanger at all. this frees up quite a giant volume for aft missile silos.
methink we can try the 2nd route on a flight of 3 x P17A and see how it goes. the space freed up by helicopter hanger can be kept for 8-12 nirbhay VL tubes or inclined tubes(if lower CoG is desired). Can carry a token 6 brahmos amidships in inclined tubes pointing up at a high angle (to clear nearby ships) and 32 barak8 on foredeck. the Oto-Melara 5" ERGM type cannon is ofcourse a must to launch a hailstorm of long range shells right behind the nirbhay salvo. this should be good enough to first target fixed infra of small naval bases / coastal targets with nirbhays and follow it up from 100km away with guided shells...the kind of tools that can wipe out pirate bases for example without even entering the 15 mile territorial waters....fall of shot spotting via third party UAV feed.
at other end we have DDG51/PLAN ships that keep a token heli landing deck for VBSS/CSAR/emergency recovery landings and no hanger at all. this frees up quite a giant volume for aft missile silos.
methink we can try the 2nd route on a flight of 3 x P17A and see how it goes. the space freed up by helicopter hanger can be kept for 8-12 nirbhay VL tubes or inclined tubes(if lower CoG is desired). Can carry a token 6 brahmos amidships in inclined tubes pointing up at a high angle (to clear nearby ships) and 32 barak8 on foredeck. the Oto-Melara 5" ERGM type cannon is ofcourse a must to launch a hailstorm of long range shells right behind the nirbhay salvo. this should be good enough to first target fixed infra of small naval bases / coastal targets with nirbhays and follow it up from 100km away with guided shells...the kind of tools that can wipe out pirate bases for example without even entering the 15 mile territorial waters....fall of shot spotting via third party UAV feed.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Why not a single class of ship with 5" gun, 32 universal VLS from L&T in fore deck. 1 or 2 RBU just aft of this VLS section, just like the Shivaliks. Amid ship, twin torpedo launchers for HWT. 32 Barak-1 & 2 Ak-630. Now aft, in between the thick space between the heli-hangar, fit in 30 more Universal VLS launchers. Typically the Hangars would be 15-18 m in length. Also form pictures of shivalik you can see that there is about 3-4 m space between the two inner walls of the hangar. Hence with if each VLS is 75cmx75cm, so a 3 m by 10 m should be enough for 30 VLS.
Now with 62 VLS, if 12 are taken by Brahmos, we still have the following options:
1. 50 Barak-8 in AAW mission
2. 32 Barak-8 & 18 Nirbhay for Land attack mission
3. 40 Barak-8, 10 ASW Klub, for ASW mission.
4. 50 Nirbhays for out and out Land attack & amphibious support missions
Now with 62 VLS, if 12 are taken by Brahmos, we still have the following options:
1. 50 Barak-8 in AAW mission
2. 32 Barak-8 & 18 Nirbhay for Land attack mission
3. 40 Barak-8, 10 ASW Klub, for ASW mission.
4. 50 Nirbhays for out and out Land attack & amphibious support missions
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
guys, there is already a design your own ship thread, please use that one for speculative exercises.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
This article on MiG from FlightGlobal has a MiG official stating that the IN is "highly satisfied" with the MiG-29K/KUB and that they've already flown more than 1000 hours for the fleet.
Since the IN operated 4 MiG-29K/KUBs between Feb 2010 till June 2011, that means that the first 4 airframes were quite heavily used, with the IN likely raising or converting and qualifying multiple crews on these initial 4 airframes. In around 16 months they've probably each flown about 200 hours each, a lot higher than their usage will be once the fleet and crew matures and stabilizes.Korotkov said 11 MiG-29K/KUB shipborne fighters have been delivered to the Indian navy, with the remaining aircraft from a 16-aircraft launch order to be handed over by the end of this year.
A follow-on contract for 29 more aircraft was signed earlier this year, with these to be delivered from 2012.
Korotkov said India is "completely satisfied" with the performance of its MiG-29K/KUBs, after racking up more than 1,000 flight hours during operational trials over a one-year period.
The Russian navy has also shown interest in the K/KUB model, he said, with an initial order for 12-14 aircraft potentially being signed during this month's MAKS air show in Moscow.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
thats my main annoyance with the Gorshkov
By the time that arrives (if it arrives ) we would have flogged our Mig 29 Ks to death
By the time that arrives (if it arrives ) we would have flogged our Mig 29 Ks to death
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
I'm not sure if thats' going to happen Surya..the MiG-29K's have (I believe) a TTL of 4000 hours/25 years and as on the IAF's current MiG-29's, this can probably be extended if there are no major fatigue issues with them (although being naval jets, they will be more susceptible to fatigue thanks to very high stresses during carrier landings).Surya wrote:thats my main annoyance with the Gorshkov
By the time that arrives (if it arrives ) we would have flogged our Mig 29 Ks to death
There will be plenty of life left on every single MiG-29K/KUB when INS Vik joins service. And given their price, I wouldn't mind the IN placing orders for a few more to maybe raise a third MiG-29K squadron as well..that'll alleviate some of the pressure we're seeing on the IAF due to depleting squadron strength.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Good idea Kartik,if the aircraft is meeting the needs well.There was a report about the Russians transferring almost all their naval aviation fighters to the RUAF,apart from LRMP aircraft,etc.The PLAN also has a large number of land based fighters in their inventory.With the IN having several air bases around the country,nearer or on the coastline,these could be augmented with extra aircraft designated for the maritime defence/strike role,leaving more IAF front-line aircraft to do duty on our eastern,nothern and wstern borders to combat China and Pak.With an increasing role being envisaged for the IN,a permanent presence in the Indo-China Sea through the use of Vietnamese base facilities,it would be neccessary for the IN to also augment its naval aviation assets ,both LRMP and strike aircraft,in support of maritime ops and the surface fleet.A sqd. of Backfire maritime bombers,once planned,would also be most useful.esp. against PLAN carriers.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
it will also mean that navy has Hands on expereince & training of 1000 hrs on these fighters.Surya wrote:thats my main annoyance with the Gorshkov
By the time that arrives (if it arrives ) we would have flogged our Mig 29 Ks to death
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
^^ Keeping fingers crossed that Russkies don't discover the need for another round of interior painting..
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
well no disagreement with getting more 29Ks - would be better if the supply chain was partly indian.
narayana
partly true as its only a partial subsitituion for real ops from a carrier
narayana
partly true as its only a partial subsitituion for real ops from a carrier
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
^^ Times NOW heroes episode of this week had IN as the episode and 2 stories were featured:
1. A Lt.Cdr from INS Beas ( seems to be a MARCO as well) who was given Nausena medal for rescueing a merchant ship from pirates.
2. A IN senior aviator who managed to incredibly save a Il-38-SD and its crew from certain crash when ALL electrical systems on board failed ( an apparent 4th level of mechanical redundancy helped in braking the craft on landing since even brakes require electric power and everything was dead on the Il-38SD).
One thing which he mentioned was that he used his mobile phone( if i heard him right) to contact ATC when near Dabolim since even Radio was dead on the craft. Do we get mobile signals in the air at such distances from land?
1. A Lt.Cdr from INS Beas ( seems to be a MARCO as well) who was given Nausena medal for rescueing a merchant ship from pirates.
2. A IN senior aviator who managed to incredibly save a Il-38-SD and its crew from certain crash when ALL electrical systems on board failed ( an apparent 4th level of mechanical redundancy helped in braking the craft on landing since even brakes require electric power and everything was dead on the Il-38SD).
One thing which he mentioned was that he used his mobile phone( if i heard him right) to contact ATC when near Dabolim since even Radio was dead on the craft. Do we get mobile signals in the air at such distances from land?
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
^^ Sum ji, is it online? Wasn't able to find it.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Actually saw it on the channel itself ~2 hrs back ( 9:30PM every sat)...even i couldnt locate the online link yet and so put up the gist.
Hope that the channel puts it up online. Already missed last week episode on the 21SF officer!!
Hope that the channel puts it up online. Already missed last week episode on the 21SF officer!!
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Link to two min promo of Times Now 'Heroes' series -
Heroes: The defiant marines - talks about the IL -38 failure referred by Sum sir above.
http://www.timesnow.tv/Heroes-The-defia ... 381126.cms
Heroes: The defiant marines - talks about the IL -38 failure referred by Sum sir above.
http://www.timesnow.tv/Heroes-The-defia ... 381126.cms
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
India to get 5 MiG-29K fighters from Russia
Russian makers of MiG aircraft will hand over remaining five MiG-29K/KUB carrier-based fighters to the Indian Navy by the end of this year.
"We will fulfil the 2004 contract by the end of this year. We have already delivered 11 out of 16 aircraft," MiG CEO Sergei Korotkov said.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
11 aircrafts in 7 years! Go Russia go!!!
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
that is bcause it has to coincide (be relative) with the delivery of gorky.Katare wrote:11 aircrafts in 7 years!
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
indranilroy wrote:Should India sap up as many as possible:
Buy aircraft carrier for just Pound 3.5 million
Didn't we do just that? Snap up a cheap aircraft carrier. India led the way.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
^^^ Got me .
I was too anxious to post I guess. I was never for getting the Ark Royal.
But the frigates, destroyers and helis are at junk prices. There was a report that the Navy was short on vessels carrying out CGs job. Could these be bought to serve us for 10 years while the latest ones come aboard?
I was too anxious to post I guess. I was never for getting the Ark Royal.
But the frigates, destroyers and helis are at junk prices. There was a report that the Navy was short on vessels carrying out CGs job. Could these be bought to serve us for 10 years while the latest ones come aboard?
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
CG job should be done by CG vessels - far cheaper than retired obsolete ex-RN vessels whose opex and refit will be much much costlier.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
I agree with Shiv,the carrier is a steal! I remember how an ACNS recounting to his superior,the excellent state of the Hermes which India had acquired,that too even after the Falklands campaign.The Ark,with its complement of Sea Harriers/GR could serve us for another decade+ and give us a replacement for the Viraat when she is eventually retd. We would effectively then operate three carriers by the time the IAC-1 arrives and is fully commissioned.The Virat could then become a training ship/support amphib ops for the remainder of her service life.
The Ark could also serve as an amhphib ops vessel,carrying a fleet of Sea Kings/EH-101s.I would advise cash-strpped Britain,to offer the carrier + aircraft,spares,weaponry,etc.,as a package deal to the IN saap.I also predict that there might be a quick buy from a Chinese "casino" operator,who might want another flaoting casino like the varyag/Shi Lang-whatever! Some S.American nations might also like to explore this option,perhaps Argentina,who want to retake the Falklands/Malvinas? That would be hilarious!
The Ark could also serve as an amhphib ops vessel,carrying a fleet of Sea Kings/EH-101s.I would advise cash-strpped Britain,to offer the carrier + aircraft,spares,weaponry,etc.,as a package deal to the IN saap.I also predict that there might be a quick buy from a Chinese "casino" operator,who might want another flaoting casino like the varyag/Shi Lang-whatever! Some S.American nations might also like to explore this option,perhaps Argentina,who want to retake the Falklands/Malvinas? That would be hilarious!
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
^^ Honeslty, after the "free" Gorky experience, doubt IN will ever in their lifetime touch another carrier being offered for a "steal"..
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Hope TPA do not buy some of these...indranilroy wrote:Should India sap up as many as possible:
Buy aircraft carrier for just Pound 3.5 million
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Let them, it would anther Gorshkov, aircraftcarrier is virtually free but onboard systems, aircraft etc, considering british wages would a coll $5Billion +nits wrote:Hope TPA do not buy some of these...indranilroy wrote:Should India sap up as many as possible:
Buy aircraft carrier for just Pound 3.5 million
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
I meant Helis and other Naval ships... Carrier is surely out of question for them...Aditya_V wrote:Let them, it would anther Gorshkov, aircraftcarrier is virtually free but onboard systems, aircraft etc, considering british wages would a coll $5Billion +nits wrote:Hope TPA do not buy some of these...
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Guys,there is a fab garage sale on right now with the UK MOD.James Bond stuff,etc. for sale at throwaway prices.Fancy watches for agents to display at diplomatic parties-as if they were top dip0lomutts,at bucket shop prices! Helicopters,etc. at tractor prices.If I was AKA I would make a beeline for Blighty right now and get me the carrier on the cheap plus filling it fully with other assorted goodies! For any BRites in Blighty right now,make use of this one-time opportunity.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Helicopters will not be needed.
Ships can be considered if and only if there is no need for any kind of upgradation or work required to make it sea worthy and also associated equipments that need to be purchased. If we can do any kind of modifications along with our own systems onboard and if the ships can be used for another 10 years (for frigates). Then it may be worth looking into it.
Since Vikramaditya will be coming in 2012, it will be better to try the frigates, especially the last four decommissioned ones.
Ships can be considered if and only if there is no need for any kind of upgradation or work required to make it sea worthy and also associated equipments that need to be purchased. If we can do any kind of modifications along with our own systems onboard and if the ships can be used for another 10 years (for frigates). Then it may be worth looking into it.
Since Vikramaditya will be coming in 2012, it will be better to try the frigates, especially the last four decommissioned ones.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
What about the Queen and the Prince?
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
keep in mind that the MiG-29K version that the IN received didn't exist back in 2004- there have been very significant changes made to the airframe and IN specified avionics were integrated as well. So in some respects, a full-spec MiG-29K is akin to a Su-30MKI Phase 3- fully developed but very different from any other version of MiG-29 or Su-30 around.Katare wrote:11 aircrafts in 7 years! Go Russia go!!!
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
The flat top is the key acquisition.It can serve for another 25 years at least and whe eevr a new helo or STOVL aircraft is developed accomodate it! The SoKo Dodko is an amphib carrier in all respects.V.interstingly,these days -even though I've been saying this for over a decade+,the "carrier amphibs" lobby is growing in the US.The need ro affordable medium sized flat tops instead of massively expensive super-carriers has focusse its attention on the "cross-over" capability of LHPDs.It is what I've described before as the "swing factor".The new carrier amphibs come fully capable of conducting swing ops from amphib ops,vert. assault,special forces ops,support of amphib ops through use of attack helos,ASW, and even fleet air defence through JSF style STOVL strike aircraft.
The frigates do not have the internal flexibility and their lifespan will be far less shortlived.It is very difficult to upgrade or modernise an old surface combatant as sensors,missile siols,guns,etc. have to be replaced.That is how we still have the Viraat soldieiring on 50+ years after it was commissioned!
The frigates do not have the internal flexibility and their lifespan will be far less shortlived.It is very difficult to upgrade or modernise an old surface combatant as sensors,missile siols,guns,etc. have to be replaced.That is how we still have the Viraat soldieiring on 50+ years after it was commissioned!
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Britain is being flushed in gutter back to its bankrupted poor status, while Bharat is arising back to its "Rich Swarnim Yug". 10 years from now we may start giving them our old ships in kaudion ke daam.
Nothing but brand new will do for our forces from now. Hopefully gorky and trenton will be the last 2nd hand ships we get.
Nothing but brand new will do for our forces from now. Hopefully gorky and trenton will be the last 2nd hand ships we get.