Indian Naval Discussion

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Cosmo_R
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 05 Sep 2011 18:33

@Thomas Kolarek ^^^: "Starting in Dec 2010, this is amazing efficiency." IIRC, the C-130Js are ahead of schedule too.

What? You mean no overseas trips and lengthy tea and vodka sessions to discuss latest reason for delay and 3x cost overruns? CAG is going to go out of business.

This is a devious Yankee plot to make us lower our guard and win our business. Thank God we did not fall for Boeing's F/A-18 offer, they would have delivered it early and we would have had to ground all the MiGs. :)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 05 Sep 2011 19:39

^^^

The Delhi entered service in 1996. The last ship of the extended class is to enter service by 2024. By that time the first one will be close to retirement.

What is the delivery schedule for the P 17?

The IN, if it has to have a chance of taking on the PLAN on an equal footing must have a fleet of at least 120 frigates and destroyers along with 5 flat tops by 2030. Add to that 40 to 50 subs. The IN will not have this fleet by 2050 at current rates.

Before any one comes back to me and says that PLAN has quantity and the IN will have quality. To then I say that quantity has a quality all its own.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby uddu » 05 Sep 2011 20:22

D Roy wrote:http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=75583
the three ships under P-15A are scheduled to be delivered by March 2012, March 2013 and March 2014 respectively. Contract for four P-15B ships has been signed in January 2011, with delivery schedule as July 2018, July 2020, July 2022 and July 2024 respectively.


The efficiency seems very poor. Today it takes three years for the Japanese to build a destroyer. Then why is it taking us 7 years to build the first destroyer and then two years gap in between for the follow on destroyers. This is very inefficient.
The time frame need to be cut and the number of destroyers need to be increased. The Rajput class will have to be decommissioned soon. Five decommissioned and four commissioned seem not appropriate. Need atleast 10+ destroyers of the P15B class and after the five Rajputs decommissioned, it's only an increment of 5.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby uddu » 05 Sep 2011 20:24

Thomas Kolarek wrote:Indian Navy’s first P-8I to fly this month
Looks like Boeing is right ahead of the schedule.

NO wonder they bagged an order for four more. May be further orders may be given, if they impress with delivery way ahead of schedule.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby uddu » 05 Sep 2011 20:33

The French do have a nice concept for a stealth destroyer for the future.
http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=102721

Seeing the slow pace of development of the P15B, it will be wise for us to partner France in developing in parallel the next Generation stealth destroyers.
This can build faster, and must be of equivalent cost as well as advanced in many areas. Customized for both nations to suit their requirement. But cooperation can have a lot of benefits in improving production standards and also for sharing the cost of development, latest technology etc.
{Not necessary that it must implement whatever has been shown in the video. Vertical launch capability will be enough for the missiles, India having the Brahmos or Nirbhay in it, while french having their version of missile and customizing according to their own requirement in areas of their expertise.}
With Russia, we cannot build any destroyers, there will be a lot of delays. So better try this french concept, that's very modern.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 05 Sep 2011 22:00

I agree - "go big or go home"

since the P15B #1 is not realistically going to appear before 2020, might as well try some radical concepts to scare the lizard shitless and match the CG21

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 05 Sep 2011 22:29

Cosmo_R wrote:@Thomas Kolarek ^^^: "Starting in Dec 2010, this is amazing efficiency." IIRC, the C-130Js are ahead of schedule too.

What? You mean no overseas trips and lengthy tea and vodka sessions to discuss latest reason for delay and 3x cost overruns? CAG is going to go out of business.

This is a devious Yankee plot to make us lower our guard and win our business. Thank God we did not fall for Boeing's F/A-18 offer, they would have delivered it early and we would have had to ground all the MiGs. :)


And no kickbacks o "increase" or "reduce" price" escalation. All Western countries should be banned for giving a bad image to Indian and Russian arms industry

K

tejas
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tejas » 06 Sep 2011 04:37

It takes public sector ports 80 hours on average to offload cargo that takes 8 hours in Singapore and Hong Kong. So these PSU shipbuilders are relatively efficient! Lessons learned by others centuries ago are still beyond the grasp of many in India. Don't worry someone will be willing to sell us what we need.

In the meantime the planning commission of the central govt. Should set up a panel of empowered ministers to look into the mystery of why PSUs always seem less efficient than their foreign private competitors.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Leo.Davidson » 06 Sep 2011 05:10

Question: We are seeing a flurry of new ships being inducted or on the drawing boards. What is the mainstay HELICOPTER going to be ??? The SeaKing is old and outdated, and the Dhruv is petite, without folding rotors, etc.

Which helicopter should rightfully replace the SeaKing?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 06 Sep 2011 08:06

EC725 , SH60 and NH90 have been mentioned as contestants for 40 odd units. EH101 is too big for most of our ship hangers.

we will need them soon....I dont think we have enough sea kings left to kit up the P15A class from next year. some of our current ships might be sailing with only 1 heli at present due to sea king shortage.

hopefully all 3 x P15A get allocated to the ENC. along with the 3rd Shivalik and the 3xtalwar2 FFG. we need a base as big as karwar on the eastern coast, preferably near vizag somewhere. and a fwd ops base in nicobar chain for limited repairs, fuel, weapons, supplies and replacement crews.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby aniket » 06 Sep 2011 14:48

Can Rudra and LCH be placed on ships like INS Jalashwa and other amphibious ships ?

vishnu.nv
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vishnu.nv » 06 Sep 2011 15:12

Yes we can, but optimal usage we may have to make some minor modifications such as Folded wings etc. The British recently used Apache's from the ships.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby aniket » 06 Sep 2011 15:16

Yeah that's why I was asking,I think it will be very useful not only to provide transport but also provide support.
Would love to see that

Philip
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 06 Sep 2011 18:27

Just a few quick notes.First,Adm Stan Dawson former CNS and architect of the Karwar base is reportedly critically ill after injuries suffered from a fall here in B'lore.We fondly remember his being with us as guest of honour at a BR gathering at the Blr. Club a few years ago.Let's pray that he will make a complete recovery asap.

All of Canada's British built Upholder subs are kaput! Huge problems with material failures,etc.Along with Oz's Collins class,these penguins underscore the diff. between western diesel subs and Russian subs,which are mostly double-hulled and tougher.Western submariners used to deride Russian subs because of their lesser automation (used mainly for emergencies),larger crews and cruder interiro spaces,but look at the situ today,where the ubiquitous Kilo SS,is still being manufactured -a very successful design,when its "colleagues" in time,the Upholders,Collins',etc., are giving up the ghost! Only German U-boats and a few French subs from that era still survive.Even the Agostas of that era are being pensioned off with the Pakis being the only clients for improved AIP Agostas.

A the rate of warship construction given by the timeframe for the P-15Bs,we will be very long in the tooth by the time they arrive.This timeframe is unacceptable foe the IN,which will still have to import warships and subs.French vessels are excellent quality but outrageously expensive-gold plated hulks in fact.Simply unaffordable to the IN.We will still have to buy frigates,destroyers /cruisers perhap,and corvettes and subs from Russia,which will be far cheaper ,build part of the order here in private yards to be able to keep the IN's fleet inventory healthy.One expects an order for another 3 Talwars soon once the first of the second series with B'Mos arrives.The IN shoudl increase the numbers of the various new types it is acquiring,at least 9-12 ,so that economy of scale and mainteneance and support,crews included is easier.


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 08 Sep 2011 21:08


Thomas Kolarek
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Thomas Kolarek » 08 Sep 2011 22:00

Interesting Study..Pak wont make much with $140+ millions Somali pirates loot. Its an Pure White Insurance business that is making this continue.
Who is really gettin rich from Somali Piracy
Image

Singha
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Sep 2011 22:25

kind of like the weekly health scare industry in the US and the sale of products and services to mitigate these new threats ... home anthrax detection kits , white isolation germ warfare suits, gas monitors, breathing masks, water analyzers, firearms, rescue beacons, GPS locator watches for kids, industrial strength paper shredders that cut 0.05mm pieces .... :P

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 10 Sep 2011 02:54


VinodTK
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 10 Sep 2011 04:22

Amphibious vessels to strengthen Navy
:
With additional airstrips, OTR (operational turn around) bases and jetties, ANC is slowly being transformed into a major amphibious warfare hub. A strong military presence in the 572-island archipelago is considered imperative to counter China's strategic moves in the Indian Ocean as well as ensure security of the sea lanes converging towards Malacca Strait.
:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 10 Sep 2011 12:31

I read an article in TOI today that cabinet had cleared a 2000 cr project for 4 x LST in GRSE and was on verge of clearing a 16,000cr proj for 4 x LPD of the same size as Trenton to be built at HSL Vizag and pvt shipyards.

the projected cost of 4000cr looks like we can afford to have a fully functional ship not a austere semi-commercial rig of the rotterdam class.

it also mentions we have 3 amphib brigades now - one in west, one in south and one in AN.

using commercial cruise ship stds the french built the first two mistral class for a total of around $850 mil which comes to $400 mil per ship and is 25% cost of the more khanate type LPD-17 san antonio ship
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Fra ... LHD-05384/

if we build the hull to mistral std some headroom exists for kitting up its mission gear to a TFTA std.
Last edited by Singha on 10 Sep 2011 13:25, edited 1 time in total.

rohitvats
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 10 Sep 2011 12:43

Guess, the GOI is serious towards development of amphib. projection capability.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby suryag » 10 Sep 2011 14:59

Thats your manokaamna Rohit ji, what is the use in building up all these capabilities if you dont have the intention to use them(hope there is some C. reasoning behind developing all these capabilites)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 10 Sep 2011 17:58

suryag wrote:Thats your manokaamna Rohit ji, what is the use in building up all these capabilities if you dont have the intention to use them(hope there is some C. reasoning behind developing all these capabilites)
We need force projection capabilities in the IOR. These capabilities will be essential to protect a growing Indian economy with Indian investments in this region. The intent here would be to protect our economic, geo-political and strategic interests.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 10 Sep 2011 19:27

capability gives us better leverage and deterrence value.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Eric Leiderman » 10 Sep 2011 20:41

lots of island chains in south china sea too, with multiple states claiming ownership, all except one, would love to have us in their corner, Who knows we might start wearing wollen dhotis and the shivering might stop.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 10 Sep 2011 23:20

8 GRSE LCUs will replace the 8 GSL built LCUs in the 80s

Lets see if HSL is up to the task for 4 LPD. In the 40's to 60's it was the best shipyard in India before nationalization rendered it ineffective.

They were true patriots -

Walchand Hirachand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walchand_Hirachand
Mirza Ismail http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirza_Ismail

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Sep 2011 07:24

my spider sense says by 2030 the security of eastern half of africa and arabian & IOR sea will have to be underwritten not by nato (fading away due to funds crunch) or Llyods but by indian navy. perhaps this amphib buildout is oriented to that.

the ability to go in and rampage through some coastal areas as punishment to regimes is a useful tool in hand.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 11 Sep 2011 10:20

Singha wrote:I read an article in TOI today that cabinet had cleared a 2000 cr project for 4 x LST in GRSE and was on verge of clearing a 16,000cr proj for 4 x LPD of the same size as Trenton to be built at HSL Vizag and pvt shipyards.
it also mentions we have 3 amphib brigades now - one in west, one in south and one in AN.

The TOI article talks about Eight "LCUs (landing craft utility)" and not Four. apart from this it talks about the impending approval for the Four LPDs, the mention of names make me think that the RFI has yielded positive results and our GOI is moving forward to giving an approval.
The icing on the cake is indeed THREE Amphibious brigades. This is indeed a Lungi Dance Moment!!!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vishnu.nv » 11 Sep 2011 10:39

Well this is a BrahMos lungi dance moment !!! :)

Four mistral class LPD or Dokdo class LHD's??? :)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Sep 2011 15:14

what is the difference between the two? both seem to be same size and shape.
the dokdo has a good sized well deck too..and check out that fat SMART-L sized 3d radar - not skimping anything on air search for sure :eek:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bI8btu4i1HQ/T ... 0/8902.jpg

both dokdo and mistral seem to be more LPH with a secondary LPD capability as opposed to the trenton types / San antonio types which have smallish helicopter area (no through deck) and bigtime LPD assets.

the Soko have a official plan for 3-4 action groups centered on 1 Dokdo and a few KDX2 and KDX3 each as they have no proper strike carrier.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vishnu.nv » 11 Sep 2011 15:57

Both are my favorites for the competition. ;) Dokodo is smaller than mistral having 14,300 tons empty where as Mistral empty weight is around 16500 tons. Mistral can carry more helicopters almost up to 30.
Even though i think the IN will stick to the LPD may be San Antonio class through FMS.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gurinder P » 11 Sep 2011 16:44

May I ask what the differences between LPD and LHD are? I know that structural differences are that LHD has a carrier like deck and the LPD look like the old Moskva carrier design, but what are the major differences between the two?

Thank you in advance.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Sep 2011 18:10

I dont think there are major differences anymore....the LPD could have multi level parking for more land vehicles because it does not need a below-decks hanger for the airwing and hence can use the maximal space fronting into the well-deck. so more troops and vehicles could likely deploy off a similar sized LPD vs a LHD. the LHD having the advantage of more helis can launch stronger vertical deployment ops , from longer ranges and operate in sea states that make LST/LCAC usage difficult. LHD can also provide some limited air defence using VSTOL jets although folks who do amphib landings do have proper carriers or land based cover on call.

the san antonio class at 4X the cost of Mistral is unaffordable for India. I am thinking a european design like mistral or juan carlos has a 75% chance and Dokdo a 25% chance - dokdo will be cheaper and the koreans build fast and well, but we havent done a major deal with them yet, IN might not want to stake such a huge proj on a unknown partner though one can say there's always a first date in every marriage.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Jay » 11 Sep 2011 20:07

An US naval officers point of view...
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/k ... nboard_an/

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gurinder P » 11 Sep 2011 20:14

After reading the differences between the possible contenders, I personally favor the Juan Carlos class because of it's size and capacity vs. its unit cost (400 million Euro's vs $1.2 Bn for San Antonio class!).

It also has a ski jump, so maybe the IN's harrier force could be redeployed to them or maybe the Mig 29K could operate from them as well(speculation), plus it can carry nearly 1000 soldiers or up to 46 Leo II tanks (they are nearly comparable to the Arjun in size).

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gurinder P » 11 Sep 2011 20:25

Jay wrote:An US naval officers point of view...
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/k ... nboard_an/



Ouch! I would personally like to visit the INS Delhi to confirm this

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Tanaji » 11 Sep 2011 20:28

Jay wrote:An US naval officers point of view...
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/k ... nboard_an/


Not sure what to make of it... or even believe it at all.

~INS Delhi is the flagship and its a bit much. The slave comment gives it away. Perhaps tsarkar or SNaik can comment more. on the specific points he has made.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 11 Sep 2011 20:40

^^^
Just a poor response to culture shock, nothing more.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Yogi_G » 11 Sep 2011 21:00

Jay wrote:An US naval officers point of view...
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/k ... nboard_an/


Ayyo, nothing but a bit of overnight rich phenomena. Note the points on squalor. read up more on the overnight rich phenomenon here,

Overnight rich syndrome


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