Indian Naval Discussion

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Baldev
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Baldev » 15 Sep 2011 02:21


Nikhil T
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Nikhil T » 15 Sep 2011 03:28

nash wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/business/article2447626.ece


Sigh.
Pipavav-MDL deal: Pvt sector rivals raise a stink, write to NSA

Some private shipyards, including Larsen & Toubro (L&T) and ABG Shipyard, will write a letter to the ministry of defence and the National Security Advisor (NSA), alleging “lack of transparency and arbitrary decision-making,” by MDL.
At stake are defence contracts that could go up to a whopping Rs 1 lakh crore.

When contacted, MDL chairman and managing director Vice Admiral S H Malhi said, “I am in London, but what I can tell you is these allegations are baseless and Pipavav was selected after a thorough and fair selection process.”

Nikhil Gandhi, chairman of Pipavav Shipyard, rubbished these claims and told Business Standard “the selection was done after a thorough due diligence process, taking into account our execution capabilities and world class infrastructure.”

L&T, Bharati Shipyard and ABG officials did not want to comment on the issue.

Burdened with capacity bottlenecks, the Indian government had decided to opt for public-private partnerships (PPP) for four government shipyards with their private sector peers.

MDL, being the largest, was the first to go off the block. The three other government yards are Cochin Shipyard, Hindustan Shipyard and Garden Reach Works in Kolkata. In March, MDL issued an expression of interest (EOI), seeking to form a strategic partnership with Indian private sector shipyards to meet the challenging timelines for liquidating their order book.

Eight private yards had submitted the EoI, following which visits were made to these yards by a senior delegation that included MDL’s board members and a working level team of officers, with the aim of evaluating the strengths and capabilities of each of the private yards. After the initial screening, four players —Pipavav, L&T, Bharati and ABG Shipyards —were shorlisted.

Sources in these shipbuilding companies said on August 23, these four shortlisted candidates made detailed presentations to MDL on their manufacturing capabilities. The business plan and joint collaborative strategy proposed by each were also discussed.

Two days later, on August 25, the MDL management through a letter sought further details of the JV and the business plans. But even then, no evaluation criteria for the selection of the partner were either included in the EoI document or discussed with the potential partners at any stage of the selection process, the sources added.

It is being alleged that at the board meeting of MDL on September 9, the decision to form a joint venture with Pipavav was taken, though the formal minutes of the board meeting are yet to be issued and an official clearance from the government given. More, the officer in charge of procurement of warships and defence equipment, a regular invitee member on the board of directors of MDL, was not invited for the board meeting or consulted on the issue.

The war of words intensified over Pipavav’s execution capabilities. "We would like to know on what basis was Pipavav selected," said another executive in a shipyard. “Pipavav has not yet executed a single order and is yet to deliver its first vessel; it lacks design capabilities and manpower,” he said.

To strengthen their case, the aggrieved shipyards highlighted Pipavav was yet to commence an order of 12 ships (OSVs) from ONGC, bagged in January 2009. “Even in 2005-06, Pipavav had suggested a JV with MDL with a Rs 100 crore investment. But the proposal was shot down. Also, the then CMD of MDL is now an executive director of Pipavav,” pointed out another executive.

Gandhi rebuffs each of the allegations. “We have already put in a billion dollars to build a global scale facility, a first in India. Ours is the second largest dry dock in the world. Our yard is modular and so we can deliver ships at least four to five times faster. We have sufficient land in Pipavav to take care of any expansion in the location. And finally, our infrastructure is new,” he added.

Gandhi also said Pipavav had already delivered two Panamax ships in record time. “If we were so incompetent, why would we get global partners like SAAB, Babcock, Northrope and a host of others? These are large, specialised players,” he said. “After thorough diligence of our capabilities, MDL decided to go with us. Every yard was given ample time to respond to MDL. This is a baseless campaign against us.”

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vic » 15 Sep 2011 11:19

L&T is getting short end of the stick in their ship building and power manufactering lines. I think that L&T are less capable in bribing arena

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 15 Sep 2011 14:08

Is it a case of sour grapes?

PS; what prevents the Pvt yards from entering into a JV with out her PSU yards.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vipul » 15 Sep 2011 19:32

If i remember correctly, SKIL (Nikhil Gandhi's holding company) has a small stake with Mukesh Ambani in a tie-up for some infra related venture in Navi Mumbai.
ABG and Bharti shipyards inspite of being old players never showed any big initiative in getting invloved in the defence sector. It took Nikhil Gandhi to come in and shake things up.
L&T though is getting a raw deal.The Babus are sure of not getting any kick-backs from this company.They are more comfortable with the johnny come lately ambititious types.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 15 Sep 2011 22:16

L&T will likely corner the sub deal, including some nukes.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby hnair » 15 Sep 2011 23:04

Speculation: Goldman's interest in Pipavav *might* be because of the size of the next few flattops (either IACs or LPD/HDs). Khan is the only game in town for consultancy beyond a certain tonnage. And a yard of that size cannot be easily shutdown because Goldman missed a quarter. Counter-intel is another matter altogether and no yard is safe.

btw, any jingo notice how with minimal fanfare, the stars aligned for this giant facility? If this was China, we would have had streamers, banners, screaming drone-fanbois etc and a few photos of "the leadership" sporting phony smiles, while standing in front of a giant propeller or something.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vipul » 15 Sep 2011 23:52

I am not sure about Goldman but its JP Morgan which is buying a 20% stake in Skil.

http://www.domain-b.com/finance/institu ... early.html

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby hnair » 16 Sep 2011 00:01

typo saar, you are right - I meant JP Morgan, not Goldman. apologies

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby prithvi » 16 Sep 2011 06:33


prithvi

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby prithvi » 16 Sep 2011 09:17

Image

this is a pic of INS Jalashwa and Mysore in Malta... during Libya evaluation.. can anyone ID the ship on the other side.. it looks very similar to Shivalik...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ticky » 16 Sep 2011 09:33

Don't think that's an Indian Navy vessel. The one in foreground right is Mysore I believe

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 16 Sep 2011 10:36

Korea KDX2 destroyer

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 16 Sep 2011 11:03

the funnel and masks have distinct hallmarks of burke design, which I think kdx3 has taken to its ultimate evolution.

a grand total of 4 ASMs amidships does not indicate much of a anti-surface focus though.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 19 Sep 2011 05:29


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rupesh » 19 Sep 2011 08:49

India, China square off for sea fight

Soon after India announced its decision to go ahead with oil exploration in South China Sea with Vietnam, China on Saturday said it would expand its exploration of 10,000 sq km of seabed in southwest Indian Ocean. This was announced as part of its 2011-2015 oceanic development policy.



The Chinese intent would have security implications. India's Naval Hydrography Department, one of the best in the world, has done extensive work, mapping the bottom of the Indian Ocean. Sources said Indian hydrographers, with skills developed over the years, have perhaps the best knowledge in the world of the bottom of the ocean -- which would not only help mariners, but are invaluable resources for India's defence and strategic planning.

On July 11, the International Seabed Authority (ISA) allowed exploration for polymetallic sulphides by China Ocean Minerals Resources Research and Development Association (COMRA). The development sent shockwaves across the Indian government. The thing is, India could have done any number of such exploratory activities. India has received exploratory rights by the ISA for a large number of blocks. But Indian inaction has meant that a number of these blocks have had to be surrendered to the ISA. India still retains a number of blocks in the Indian Ocean. India cannot object to China obtaining mining rights in the Indian Ocean, particularly as India has itself neglected its concessions.

Obviously, keeping in mind China's swift moves into the Indian Ocean, the government last month released its surveys of the sea-bed on Indian territorial waters. The surveys by the Geological Survey of India (GSI) shows the presence of heavy deposits of ilmenite, rutile, zircon, sillimanite, monazite and garnet off the east coast, as well as off Kerala and Tamil Nadu. The GSI has also conducted reconnaissance surveys to identify potential areas for Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion (OTEC) off Andaman and Nicobar Islands.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 19 Sep 2011 16:28

L&T's Kattupalli Shipyard to be operational by January 2012
Engineering major Larsen and Toubro’s shipyard being set up at Kattupalli near here would become operational by coming January, a top company official said on Monday.

The shipyard would enable India to compete globally with Japan and Korea in building large-sized warships, car carriers and submarines, L&T Board Member and President (Heavy Engineering) M.V. Kotwal said.

The company in association with the Tamil Nadu Industrial Development Corporation, is setting up the Shipyard at an investment of Rs 4,000 crore for the first phase.

Addressing a session on “Consultative Meeting” “Vision 2025“- Industries, Mr. Kotwal said the company had invested Rs 4,000 crore for the first phase of the yard spread across 1,250 acres.

It is going to be a monster of facilities.. It can handle 18,000 tonne ships and right now, the (work on) ship-lift is nearing completion... it will be operational by January 2012...,” he said.

Claiming that the yard was “indigenously designed” by L&T, Mr. Kotwal later told reporters that the first ship from the Kattupalli Shipyard was expected to be rolled out by 2012-13.

“By 2012-13 it (first ship) should be rolled out” he said to a query.

According to Mr. Kotwal, the Kattupalli Shipyard, located near Ennore Port, and the company’s another facility at Hazira (in Gujarat) would be simultaneously used by Larsen and Toubro for manufacturing ships.

The company was also setting up large workshops for repairs at Kattupalli. “Chennai is blessed geographically for setting up ship repairs as currently they are done only in Singapore and Colombo”, he said.

He said the company has bagged a project from the Coast Guard to manufacture 36 highspeed “interceptor” vessels which can travel upto 45 knots per hour. “We are thinking of distributing some orders to Kattupalli shipyard (from Hazira facility) once this becomes operational,” he said.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 19 Sep 2011 20:08

The first batch of 152 Indian sailors is finishing their 6 month training program in Russia. The program consists of a theoretical part in SPB and a practicum in Severodvinsk (on board of Vikram). The second batch of 112 is currently studying in SPB and is expected to transfer to Severodvinsk in November.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby aditya.agd » 19 Sep 2011 20:45

Indian Defence planners need to be more aggressive to grab all such opportunities. China is a biggest threat and can be the best friend.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby akimalik » 20 Sep 2011 08:21

SSridhar wrote:By 2012-13 it (first ship) should be rolled out” he said to a query.


Which "first ship" are they referring to? Have they already got some orders, or are they referring to the FAC orders currently being executed at Hazria?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 20 Sep 2011 09:06


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vipul » 21 Sep 2011 01:01

L&T set to partner Hindustan Shipyard.

Larsen & Toubro is set to partner government-owned Hindustan Shipyard for shipbuilding, as the defence ministry has recommended the company as the preferred partner.

Sources familiar with the developments said L&T emerged as the strongest contender because of its experience in building submarines and its location on the same coastline as Hindustan Shipyard. The deal is yet to be formally tied up but an announcement is expected soon.

Hindustan Shipyard had received expression of interest from L&T, Pipavav, ABG Shipyard and Sembawang Shipyard for a joint venture agreement for shipbuilding activity.

If it finally manages to get the mandate, L&T will have lots to cheer about after it had expressed disappointment over the recent deal between Pipavav Shipyard and Mazagon Dock. Among others, ABG Shipyard is also believed to have raised a lot of questions about the Pipavav deal.

The L&T spokesperson refused to comment on the matter. When contacted, Hindustan Shipyard’s chairman N K Mishra did not confirm the development. Engineering major L&T is also setting up a shipyard in Kattupalli in association with Tamil Nadu Industrial Development Corporation, expected to be operational by January 2012. So, while Pipavav and Mazagon had the west coast as the common area of operation, L&T and Hindustan Shipyard have facilities on the eastern coast. L&T has invested Rs 4,000 crore for the first phase of the shipyard, spread across 1,250 acres at Kattupalli, while Hindustan Shipyard is in Visakhapatnam. The shipbuilding sector is not witnessing the best of times, with the industry facing a situation of oversupply in the market. It is for reasons like this the Shipping Corporation of India has put its plans of entering the shipbuilding sector on a slow lane. Even the initial public offer of Cochin Shipyard has been put on hold due to poor market conditions and also delays in its own projects.

The shipbuilding industry is well aware of the growing opportunities in the defence space. With commercial shipping at a low, this could be the opportunity all private players now want to tap into. “It is a unique situation of ‘over-capacity’ of one segment meeting ‘unserviced demand’ of another segment. It was a marriage waiting to be made,” said Hemant Bhattbhatt, senior director, Deloitte.

According to industry experts, public sector shipyards have full order books and it makes sense to get private sector participation in the space and increase the focus on building manufacturing efficiencies to bring down costs.

“The reservation to supply in favour of the public sector is doing more harm to the Indian Navy since public sector units have their hands full and shipyards like MDL, which is already running many years behind deadlines in delivering the first of six Scorpene submarines that it was contracted to build under Project 75, are jeopardising the country’s defence readiness,” Bhatt added.

According to a committee set up by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, the $11-billion submarine market of India must be directed towards the Indian private sector. Companies like ABG Shipyard, Bharati Shipyard and Pipavav Shipyard have been tying up with international engineering companies like Rolls Royce, Wartsila Diesel and Yanmer Marine, among others, to get a share of the Indian defence sector. “The Defence Procurement Policy in its 2011 recommendations has directed naval shipyards that as long as any naval order can be built in India it cannot be imported,” a senior executive said.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 21 Sep 2011 16:59


Pratyush
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 22 Sep 2011 09:05

INS Vikramaditya Carrier Is 85% Ready

Has any one kept for how long the ship has been 85% ready.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nits » 22 Sep 2011 09:47

Pratyush wrote:INS Vikramaditya Carrier Is 85% Ready

Has any one kept for how long the ship has been 85% ready.


I hope we again don't get a news saying - remaning 15% is the Paint Job :-o

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 22 Sep 2011 09:58

to me it seems:
L&T, HSL will do nuclear submarines and P17A
GRSE will do LST, FACs, P28 and P17A(maybe)
MDL, Pipapav will do scorpene2 (P75I), LPD and P15B
ABG - ??
Goa - FACs, OPVs
Kochi - aircraft carriers and perhaps LPH/LPD later as it expands.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vashishtha » 22 Sep 2011 13:58

guys any update on the nerpa?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nash » 22 Sep 2011 14:37

to me it seems:
L&T, HSL will do nuclear submarines and P17A
GRSE will do LST, FACs, P28 and P17A(maybe)
MDL, Pipapav will do scorpene2 (P75I), LPD and P15B
ABG - ??
Goa - FACs, OPVs
Kochi - aircraft carriers and perhaps LPH/LPD later as it expands.


I think P17A comes under GRSE and MDL and as Pipapava JV with MDL share of P17A will also share with Pipapava.
I would say GRSE should also make a JV with Private firm, so that we can speed up the production for P28(4) and P28A(8 or 12).
L&T and HSL should be for nuke and conventional submarine(P75 I), may they have to share P75I with MDL But future order should go to this Public-Private JV(L&T-HSL)

So it would be like:

L&T and HSL: For Subamarine including nuke and conventional-P75I & further indian design submarine.
MDL & Pipapava: mainly on Destroyer, frigate and LPD.Partially for submarine.
GRSE & ???: LCU,Corvettes.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby D Roy » 22 Sep 2011 16:51

Hindustan shipyard limited and L&T will do the LPDs. L&T had lobbied hard for it and the tie-up may be seen in that context.

GRSE and MDL are doing the P-17A.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vipul » 22 Sep 2011 19:52

With Hindustan Shipyard and MDL taken as joint partners , looks like ABG and Bharti Shipyards would get the leftovers: GRSE and Goa/Cochin Shipyards.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 22 Sep 2011 20:51

Vipul wrote:With Hindustan Shipyard and MDL taken as joint partners , looks like ABG and Bharti Shipyards would get the leftovers: GRSE and Goa/Cochin Shipyards.
Tie-up with GRSE for a shipyard based on the west coast will be painful (due to distance). Is there any shipyard (other than L&T) on the east coast? Maybe GRSE will go it alone. CSL and GSL have multiple options - ABG, Alcock-Ashdown, Bharti etc.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 22 Sep 2011 21:35

nits wrote:
Pratyush wrote:INS Vikramaditya Carrier Is 85% Ready

Has any one kept for how long the ship has been 85% ready.


I hope we again don't get a news saying - remaning 15% is the Paint Job :-o


Relax, the remaining 15% is the hull. :)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Neela » 22 Sep 2011 22:34


prahaar
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby prahaar » 22 Sep 2011 22:45

I have a query about the torpedo testing centre in Kyrgyzstadn: Why is such a facility developed in a lake (even though the weapon would mostly be used in sea conditions)? Other than legacy soviet ear technical base is there anything special about the place?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 23 Sep 2011 00:18

Maybe gives clear run for the test vehicle during development.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 23 Sep 2011 01:49

Pipapav does not have the experience that L&T does. That MDL tied up with them is interesting

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 23 Sep 2011 12:12

prahaar wrote:I have a query about the torpedo testing centre in Kyrgyzstan: Why is such a facility developed in a lake (even though the weapon would mostly be used in sea conditions)? Other than legacy soviet ear technical base is there anything special about the place?



India to develop torpedo testing centre in Kyrgyzstan

The Torpedo Testing Centre located at Issyk Kul lake in Karakul province, 250 km away from the capital Bishkek, is considered one of the best locations to launch and recover torpedoes fired during test trials.


A lot more challenging when tests are conducted in the sea.

In fact, going way back, they used to build artificial lakes to test torpedoes.

The centre has a network of sensors which can monitor the speed, velocity, homing in and direction of the torpedo once it is fired. This enables scientists to make necessary modifications in the navigation system to make the missiles more accurate and fool proof.

The torpedoes fired in the lake are also recoverable enabling the scientists to make physical verification of its structure for further study.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Neela » 23 Sep 2011 12:30

They dont have to deal with tides and waves in lakes - they are a lot calmer.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby titash » 23 Sep 2011 22:37

Can any of the gurus please elaborate on the differences in structure and purpose between the following types of amphibious assault ships? They all seem to have a well deck and a heli deck per wiki, so there is a bit of confusion as to what exactly we will be building...

LHA: Landing Helicopter Assault (Tarawa class)
LHD: Landing Helicopter Dock (Wasp class)
LPH: Landing Platform Helicopter (HMS Ocean)
LPD: Landing Platform Dock
LSD: Landing Ship Dock

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 26 Sep 2011 07:25

^^^

WRT, the link posted above

Another lethal punch will come when India's own nuclear submarine, the over 6,000-tonne INS Arihant being built at Vizag, becomes operational next year.


They seem to be quite confident of the prospect that the Arihant will be in service by next year. If the expectation bears fruit, they it will be a wonderfull accomplishment in the history of Indian ship building. As they launched and commissioned a ship on time.


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