Indian Naval Discussion

saurav.jha · Post by **saurav.jha** » 23 Oct 2010 18:45

Austin wrote:Gagan Sir , All good questions but I promised not to spill the bean , wait for another day and you will find about it in latest issue of India Today which should hit the stand by tomorrow, plus interesting stuff on C-17

There is nothing much related to AKULA or, C-17 in India Today sirjee. Great teasing.

This is what is there in the article for the eleventh Plan (2007-2012) regarding SSN ::

"One nuclear-powered attack submarine or, SSN (AKULA-2 / INS Chakra being leased from Russia in 2011. Second SSN in the twelfth Plan )."

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Oct 2010 19:36

Philip,

If India lacks the industrial capability for fulfiling the needs of its navy then the capability must be built up in the next 5 to 10 years. In order to meet the needs of its navy. As a nation with the maritime interests that India has cannot be dependent on foriegn suppliers.

JMT

arun · Post by **arun** » 24 Oct 2010 20:42

I thought the acquisition of a nuclear submarine by India from Russia was an “officially” acknowledged fact.

So what is behind the Russian Federation Ambassador to India Alexander M Kadakin saying this ? :

"Akula, I do not know anything about it. Lets talk about any other submarine, I do not know anything about this particular submarine. India, I know, is also constructing a (nuclear-powered) submarine. About this submarine (Akula), do not ask me anything, I do not know anything,"

From PTI via IBN:

''Delays in Indo-Russian defence projects must be excused''

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Oct 2010 01:31

India's Poseidon adventure begins

Indian Navy Re-Floats Bid For Medium Range Maritime Aircraft

Indian Navy Begins Search For HALE UAVs With Optional Weapons

India’s Navy Picks Its Future Maritime Patrol Aircraft

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Going by these articles, IN's air-based MPA fleet is coming along nicely and would look something like this around 2020:

15 P-8I LR-MPA (8 + 4 options + likely 3 reserves) -> replace TU-142 (blue water operations)

15 MR-MPA (6 + 6 options + likely 3 reserves) -> replace IL-38 (green water operations)

15 Dornier-228 SR-MPA (15 units as of 2002) -> replacement likely (brown water operations)

15?? HALE UAV MPA (12 units + likely 3 reserves) -> support LR/MR operations (blue/green)

15 MALE UAV SR-MPA (12 Searcher II and Heron + 3 reserves?) -> support SR operations (brown)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total (including reserves): 45 Manned MPA + 30 UAV MPA

Note: 3 reserves (for attrition) are my estimates based on having one per naval command (WNC, SNC and ENC).

If the above MPA assets are divided equally among the three naval commands, it would look something like this:

Western Naval Command (WNC)
4 (+1 reserve) P-8I LR-MPA
4 (+1 reserve) MR-MPA
4 (+1 reserve) Dornier-228 SR-MPA
4 (+1 reserve) HALE UAV
4 (+1 reserve) MALE UAV
-----------------------------
Total: 20 MPAs + 5 reserves

Southern Naval Command (SNC)
4 (+1 reserve) P-8I LR-MPA
4 (+1 reserve) MR-MPA
4 (+1 reserve) Dornier-228 SR-MPA
4 (+1 reserve) HALE UAV
4 (+1 reserve) MALE UAV
-----------------------------
Total: 20 MPAs + 5 reserves

Eastern Naval Command (ENC)
4 (+1 reserve) P-8I LR-MPA
4 (+1 reserve) MR-MPA
4 (+1 reserve) Dornier-228 SR-MPA
4 (+1 reserve) HALE UAV
4 (+1 reserve) MALE UAV
-----------------------------
Total: 20 MPAs + 5 reserves

With this kind of distribution, each naval command would be able to conduct 24-hours Maritime patrols in the blue, green and brown waters simultaneously for an indefinite period of time. One in air and three aircrafts on rotation per blue, green and brown waters. Plus, one each of HALE and MALE UAV in support.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 Oct 2010 04:50

Singha wrote:from media reports - the QE2 will not have catapults , not sure if they were ever intended for the VSTOL JSF originally intended, but now the plan is not to have them for sure.
2nd ship will get the powerful catapults needed to loft the USN version of JSF.

Apparently, the ships (QE2 and PW both belong to the same class) were designed to accept a CATOBAR system without intending to have one fitted out. Of course now plans have changed - the F-35B is being scrapped in favour of the F-35C and the Royal Navy/MoD brass are looking into the US Navy's EMCAT system in development for the new Gerald Ford class carrier.

Whatever be the case, the IN/MoD should thoroughly evaluate a potential purchase, if indeed one of the QE class carriers is up for sale. Also, we should look into the EMCAT system ourselves for the IAC-2 if not the IAC-1.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 25 Oct 2010 05:56

TOI
Navy to shop for maritime patrol aircraft, spy drones

After finalizing the acquisition of 12 P-8I Poseidon long-range maritime reconnaissance (LRMR) aircraft for $3.1 billion, the Navy has now re-launched the hunt for six to eight new medium-range surveillance (MRMR) planes and additional spy drones. The defence ministry floated global RFIs (request for information) for the MRMR aircraft, with an operating range of over 350 nautical miles, and HALE (high-altitude, long-endurance) unmanned aerial vehicles, with a service ceiling above 40,000 feet and endurance over 25 hours, earlier this month.

The radar-packed LRMR and MRMR planes, both of which will also be equipped with anti-ship and submarine warfare capabilities in the shape of deadly missiles, as well as the UAVs form part of Navy`s plan for an effective three-tier aerial surveillance grid in the IOR. This comes at a time when the government, jolted out of its slumber by the 26/11 terror strikes in Mumbai, is also going in for a major upgrade of the Coast Guard`s air wing.

In addition to the existing 24 Dorniers and 21 helicopters, the government has approved 42 new aircraft for the Coast Guard, which is also holding trials for six MRMR aircraft with Beriev-200 and Bombardier-Q400 being the contenders in the Rs 1,100 crore project. Then, Navy is all set to get its communication and surveillance satellite, with an around 1,000 nautical mile footprint over IOR, in what will be India`s first dedicated military satellite.

To be launched by ISRO soon, the geo-stationary satellite will ensure a quantum jump in Navy`s C4ISR (command, control, communication, computer, intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance) capabilities. By networking all its warships, submarines and aircraft among themselves as well as with operational centres ashore through high-speed data links, the Navy hopes to detect maritime threats in real-time to ensure swift retaliatory action.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Oct 2010 17:06

Beriev's being evaluated! Mannah from heaven.Thank you dear Lord,wonders will never cease and my prayers for years are being answered/heard!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Oct 2010 17:09

you owe us a large bottle of the good stuff the day INs first seaplane and first new LPD inducts

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Oct 2010 17:39

Philip wrote:Beriev's being evaluated! Mannah from heaven.Thank you dear Lord,wonders will never cease and my prayers for years are being answered/heard!

So you are vouching for Be-200 why ?

May be if IN selects Beriev they might just allow you to fly the bird like he did link

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Oct 2010 17:54

seaplanes can operate from sheltered bays in A&N & Laccadives where airfields are thin on the ground. useful for small bases and useful for emergencies too. for casevac and relief to small outposts like godforsaken islands in A&N occupied by platoons of police/BSF - its much cheaper and faster than a CG vessel.
eg there is one such hellish place called narcondam island around 245km due NE of port blair you can see on the map. outlook traveller had a piece on it.

http://kalyanvarma.net/images/blog/outl ... condam.pdf

these small islands are useful as future radar and ELINT stations.

I bet most of you had no idea we had such a outpost of rome almost halfway to myanmar from port blair

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 25 Oct 2010 19:13

Last year I was advocating testing N bums in one of these remote islands in the 'Pokharan mein H-bum nahi phata rona-dhona thread'

One of these remote islands is Narcondum, the other is barren island both with extinct volcanos.

Unfortunately these islands are also rich in natural beauty and who knows some species of life still unknown to man.

Barren Island is more barren, but narcondum is teeming with life.

The few years that I spent in the A&N islands left me with a lasting impact of the beauty and isolation of these islands.

Yes seaplanes are a dire need for better communication between these islands. Both civilian and military ones are needed.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 25 Oct 2010 19:30

I can understand the capability that a seaplane (e.g., Be-200) can bring to Coast Guard. But do we know anything beyond that that Be-200 brings to the table as a MRMR? There are tons of seaplanes around the world. In our neighbourhood, in Maldives most of the tourism to far-off islands is by sea planes. Perhaps we need such smaller seaplanes with 200-300 nm range rather than Be-200. I don;t have too much confidence in Russian ability to put together cutting edge electronics. Maybe we're just shopping for aircraft and sourcing equipment from elsewhere.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 25 Oct 2010 19:35

Austin saar, still waiting with bated breath for some news on the 2nd Akula.
please don't tease the jingos, give out some more info.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 25 Oct 2010 19:54

http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2010/ ... oppers.htm

Navy has refused to disclose any details about procurement of six phased-out helicopters from the US worth Rs 182 crore for which it recently received a rap from the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Did not know that we had procured these. Wonder why?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Oct 2010 19:57

Was watching at some youtube video of Be-200 link , its huge wing span makes me believe they have been borrowed from M-55

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Oct 2010 20:00

Gagan wrote:Austin saar, still waiting with bated breath for some news on the 2nd Akula.
please don't tease the jingos, give out some more info.

Gagan its there in this week IT , 2nd Akula-2 is planned for 12th plan i.e. 2012-17.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 25 Oct 2010 20:02

Thanks Austin saar,
Is it possible to have a scan of the article? IT will update its site with the current edition after a week I think.

Tanaji wrote:http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2010/ ... oppers.htm
Navy has refused to disclose any details about procurement of six phased-out helicopters from the US worth Rs 182 crore for which it recently received a rap from the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Did not know that we had procured these. Wonder why?

Those would be the Seakings that came with the USS Trenton - INS Jalashwa.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Oct 2010 20:05

JTull wrote:Perhaps we need such smaller seaplanes with 200-300 nm range rather than Be-200. I don;t have too much confidence in Russian ability to put together cutting edge electronics. Maybe we're just shopping for aircraft and sourcing equipment from elsewhere.

A bigger plane will mean longer range and/or greater persistence , if you are on a remote island as A&N or some of its small island you will need greater persistance.

What cutting edge electronics do you expect , you can integrate a SD suite if the navy decides so and add some indian systems into it.

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 25 Oct 2010 20:05

Tanaji wrote:http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2010/ ... oppers.htm
Navy has refused to disclose any details about procurement of six phased-out helicopters from the US worth Rs 182 crore for which it recently received a rap from the Comptroller and Auditor General

Did not know that we had procured these. Wonder why?

The Trenton was ok- to develop concepts and obtain experience operating an LPD. But choppers that could fall out of the sky at any moment:?:

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 25 Oct 2010 20:06

Philip wrote:Beriev's being evaluated! Mannah from heaven.Thank you dear Lord,wonders will never cease and my prayers for years are being answered/heard!

Philip. You sound like YOU have designed the Be 200 specifically for the IN !!!!!! Ha ha ha

K

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 25 Oct 2010 20:09

the Be200 appears to be a hollow shell that can be fitted out for various needs... it has been leased extensively for firefighting purposes, but no one has bought it as yet (although they have distribution agreements in place with EADS, etc.)
the system integration challenge would appear to be fairly substantial, not sure its worth procuring the airframe unless we have a doctrine that goes with the use of sea planes...

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 25 Oct 2010 20:10

Singha wrote:seaplanes can operate from sheltered bays in A&N & Laccadives where airfields are thin on the ground. useful for small bases and useful for emergencies too. for casevac and relief to small outposts like godforsaken islands in A&N occupied by platoons of police/BSF - its much cheaper and faster than a CG vessel.
eg there is one such hellish place called narcondam island around 245km due NE of port blair you can see on the map. outlook traveller had a piece on it.

http://kalyanvarma.net/images/blog/outl ... condam.pdf

these small islands are useful as future radar and ELINT stations.

I bet most of you had no idea we had such a outpost of rome almost halfway to myanmar from port blair

Once we get a hang of operating amphib aircraft, its time we develop one into am AWACAS.

K

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 25 Oct 2010 20:15

Kersi D wrote:
Singha wrote:seaplanes can operate from sheltered bays in A&N & Laccadives where airfields are thin on the ground. useful for small bases and useful for emergencies too. for casevac and relief to small outposts like godforsaken islands in A&N occupied by platoons of police/BSF - its much cheaper and faster than a CG vessel.
eg there is one such hellish place called narcondam island around 245km due NE of port blair you can see on the map. outlook traveller had a piece on it.

http://kalyanvarma.net/images/blog/outl ... condam.pdf

these small islands are useful as future radar and ELINT stations.

I bet most of you had no idea we had such a outpost of rome almost halfway to myanmar from port blair

Once we get a hang of operating amphib aircraft, its time we develop one into am AWACAS.

K

The IN was operating amphibians in the earlier days.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 25 Oct 2010 20:18

Gagan wrote: Barren Island is more barren, but narcondum is teeming with life.

Do not forget even a desert is teeming with life. It is often below the surface to beat the heat and surfaces when it is coolm after sunset.

Narcondam island is perhaps the only home to the Narcondam hornbill, a rather rare bird.

Gagan, Have you seen it ?

K

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Oct 2010 20:20

maker and type ? a modernized PBY Catalina would be great.

A&N is also home to perhaps the country's oldest tropical hardwood 'old growth' forests....such timber cannot anymore be found on the mainland me thinks.

the aussies cut them down as fast as they could in queensland and tasmania and paid the price later.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 25 Oct 2010 20:21

Lalmohan wrote:the Be200 appears to be a hollow shell that can be fitted out for various needs...

not sure its worth procuring the airframe unless we have a doctrine that goes with the use of sea planes...

Why not ?P We "fill" the shell and develop the doctrines.

K

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 25 Oct 2010 20:24

arun wrote:I thought the acquisition of a nuclear submarine by India from Russia was an “officially” acknowledged fact.

So what is behind the Russian Federation Ambassador to India Alexander M Kadakin saying this ? :

"Akula, I do not know anything about it. Lets talk about any other submarine, I do not know anything about this particular submarine. India, I know, is also constructing a (nuclear-powered) submarine. About this submarine (Akula), do not ask me anything, I do not know anything,"
From PTI via IBN:

''Delays in Indo-Russian defence projects must be excused''

In simple words it is BLACKMAIL

K

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Oct 2010 20:25

I get the feeling more $$ is being asked for akula-1 under the guise of needing to fix 'problems' found in its sea trials etc.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 25 Oct 2010 20:33

Hi Austin, I expect the same cutting edge electronics that differentiate the Poseidon suite from SD and for the same reasons IN went for Poseidon instead of more of the IL 38 airframes upgraded to SD standard!

Jokes aside, this is for CG, so I suppose the requirements (and budget) will not be as extensive as IN's new MRMR requirements. But, have never heard of any electronics suite on BE-200 for MRMR purposes. I hope they don't buy it for the shell.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 25 Oct 2010 20:43

Kesri saar,
I have seen some of the local wildlife at port blair, even visited one snake farm and the crocodile farm there.
I don't remember the narcondum hornbill specifically.
Interesting incident on the snake farm on how they raise the small snakes. These are fiesty little beasts which bite at you with their venemous teeth even as you try to feed them. They got injured by the netting covering their snake pens. The guys had small sticks with cotton buds at the end dipped in tincture iodine that they pointed at the little snakes. Everytime the snakes struck at the stick, they would have the tincture iodine coat their wounds - only way they could be treated.

But the pakistanis already know about this considering how they have been raising the Jihadis, right?

OT OT OT

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Oct 2010 21:06

JTull wrote:Hi Austin, I expect the same cutting edge electronics that differentiate the Poseidon suite from SD and for the same reasons IN went for Poseidon instead of more of the IL 38 airframes upgraded to SD standard!

One of the key reason why IN went for Poseidon was that it was based on commercial platform and operating and maintenance cost was lower and it was all new built , I do not think Russia is actually manufacturing new IL-38 frames , one of the key reason industry lobby in Russia is pushing for new ASW built on commercial Tu-204 platform designated as Tu-204P

As far cutting edge electronics goes that is debatable , SD was an export version of Novella Suite which is downgraded in few ways , though IN has indicated that it was satisfied with SD performance.

But I do agree overall the Posedian based on commercial 737 platform is a better deal and not because it has better ASW suite.

I hope they don't buy it for the shell.

If IN indeed buys it , it would certainly customise the electronic suite as per its requirement , they even did that with P-8I , i think we have stopped buying just off the shelf stuff couple of decades back

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 25 Oct 2010 21:24

http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2010/ ... oppers.htm

Why is Navy mum on use of junk US choppers?
Last updated on: October 25, 2010 16:49 IST

Navy has refused to disclose any details about procurement of six phased-out helicopters from the US worth Rs 182 crore for which it recently received a rap from the Comptroller and Auditor General.

The Navy, which was criticised by the country's top auditor for a deal "which would ultimately compromise operational effectiveness", has cited national security to withhold information about it.

In reply to an RTI application seeking details about the deal which came under fire from the CAG, the Navy cited section 8(1)(a) of the transparency law to deny the information.

.........

The Navy had acquired six decommissioned UH3H helicopters under the Foreign Military Supply (FMS) programme of the United States in November 2006, along with training and support facilities at an approximate cost of Rs 182.14 crore.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 25 Oct 2010 22:00

chetak wrote:
Kersi D wrote:seaplanes can operate from sheltered bays in A&N & Laccadives where airfields are thin on the ground. useful for small bases and useful for emergencies too. for casevac and relief to small outposts like godforsaken islands in A&N occupied by platoons of police/BSF - its much cheaper and faster than a CG vessel.
eg there is one such hellish place called narcondam island around 245km due NE of port blair you can see on the map. outlook traveller had a piece on it.

http://kalyanvarma.net/images/blog/outl ... condam.pdf

these small islands are useful as future radar and ELINT stations.

I bet most of you had no idea we had such a outpost of rome almost halfway to myanmar from port blair

Once we get a hang of operating amphib aircraft, its time we develop one into am AWACAS.

K
The IN was operating amphibians in the earlier days.

Yes. But we have lost the skills we acquired several decades ago as none of the personnel (pilots, engineers, maintenence staff etc) are there today. Regret but many of them must have passed away.

Anyway the capabilities of today's BE 200 and CL 215 are far different form the Short Sealand of the 1950s. Come to think of it there is a substantial difference between the capabilities of the BE 200 and CL 215. What exactly does IN want ?

BE is big and hence would have a longer range greater payload etc. CL 215 is smaller but a proven design

One cannot really compare CL 215 with BE 200. Do we have any other choice ?

Will India / IN ever consider Shin Meiwa US 2 ? It is even bigger than BE 200

K

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 25 Oct 2010 22:46

on one post we have what is at minimum arrogance and at worse blackmail from the Russians or some part of the Russian arms industry.

Then right behind we are clamouring to buy more stuff from them

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 26 Oct 2010 00:39

Singha wrote:you owe us a large bottle of the good stuff the day INs first seaplane and first new LPD inducts

May I take this opportunity of your own promise viz-a-viz Phz-2000

shanksinha · Post by **shanksinha** » 26 Oct 2010 01:05

Photo copyright ablogin.ru via russianplanes.net

Photo copyright ablogin.ru via russianplanes.net

-A Dabolim bird at Zhukovsky (Ramenskoye) April 2010

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Oct 2010 09:15

just as SD is a downgraded version of RuN gear, the P8 we are getting will certainly lack some of the gear USN model will get including perhaps threat libraries of sonar noises built up over decades of snooping and used by USN a/c and subs.

long term we need to step up our own snooping and oceanic research esp in the andaman sea, malacca, indonesia, south china sea, east china sea area and build requisite data banks needed by our P8 and submarine fleet.

the andaman sea is for instance quite shallow in certain areas and probably tough for submarines to work in.

the next naval war must be fought in the south china sea, not the bay of bengal.

the kind of new infra USN plans for Guam, we need to do for car nicobar.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 26 Oct 2010 10:09

Gagan wrote:Kesri saar,
I have seen some of the local wildlife at port blair, even visited one snake farm and the crocodile farm there.
I don't remember the narcondum hornbill specifically.
Interesting incident on the snake farm on how they raise the small snakes. These are fiesty little beasts which bite at you with their venemous teeth even as you try to feed them. They got injured by the netting covering their snake pens. The guys had small sticks with cotton buds at the end dipped in tincture iodine that they pointed at the little snakes. Everytime the snakes struck at the stick, they would have the tincture iodine coat their wounds - only way they could be treated.

But the pakistanis already know about this considering how they have been raising the Jihadis, right?

OT OT OT

Snakes are less dangerous and less poisonous than the neighbouring jihadis.

K

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Oct 2010 10:31

illegal migrants to A&N from bd has to be stopped...infact migration to A&N from mainland india itself is a issue for such a fragile place (BDs can always work their way in via WB migrants cover)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Oct 2010 12:30

We all know what devastation the Car Nic air base suffered.It was inoperable thanks to the tsunami.Had we had amphibians in service at that time,we could've started relief efforts just hours after the event! In addition,the amphib can land both on sea and water and makes it far easier in ocean rescue ops,apart from prosecuting subs with dipping sonar as well.Just calculate the immense costs of establishing land bases and airstrips to operate LRMP aircraft.With amphibs all you need are a few well located refuelling stations equipped with some basic maintenance provisions,while the main bases will house weapons and other required eqpt.Every island and part of the coastline becomes accessible.In adition,if we can acquire some of the large 60+ string harrier fleet being retired early thanks to UK budget cuts,of which most are GR attack types,they could also be used apart from amphib support ops aboard amphib ships/carriers,in the A&N islands just as was done in Germany during the Cold War,hidden in small clearings heavily camouflaged.

The BE-200 was flown at one of the B'lore air shows and performed a water-bombing run,quite impressive.