Indian Naval Discussion

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Surya
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Surya » 26 Oct 2010 21:06

With amphibs all you need are a few well located refuelling stations equipped with some basic maintenance provisions,while the main bases will house weapons and other required eqpt.


nice thoughts but like the using highways for fighter aircraft not that practical.

Also where would the amphibious aircraft be?? if they were in the same vicinity and some would have tobe - the tsunami would have clobbered them. (ignore advanced warning - because in that case so can the land based aircraft take off)

and real aid eventually needs large ships

BTW I have no disagreement with you larger number of helo carriers\LPD etc with ability to carry harriers.

But do note that once we run out of Harriers - we have limited choices in the future.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 27 Oct 2010 07:25

Robert Kaplan: Indian Ocean becomes battleground for India and China

“In this post-Iraq, post-Afghanistan world ... we're seeing the rise of India and China,” he says. “Think of China trying to move south toward the Indian Ocean and India moving west and east. Where they intersect will be lines of rivalry through the 21st century.”

China now has fighter jets stationed in Tibet that can reach Indian airspace. The Indian Navy now has a presence in the South China Sea. And in the Indian Ocean, both powers are racing to establish their presence.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby venku_Raj » 27 Oct 2010 07:58


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Oct 2010 08:59

port blair or some other island needs to be developed into our pearl harbour and apart from CG& IN FFG vessels, LRMP, our ambhibious assets can be based partly there including LPH/LPH, seaplanes, hovercrafts, marine infantry brigade(s) and such. the other half can be based in Karwar to reach into arabian sea/western IOR.

car nicobar needs to be a major A1 LRMP base. we also need a submarine base to fwd-deploy our subs for action in south china sea.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 27 Oct 2010 10:20

Singha,

I feel that the better idea will be to use Sing(H)apur. As it has better aridefence and fairly well developed industrial capability. Also it is located at a vital international choke point. failing which use vietnam as a logisticle base and IN fleet sils out of main land India and the fleet tankers are fueled at vietnam. This has two advantages. In fleet can operate for longer duration in South china sea and the Vietnamies can say to the PRC that we are just providing logisticle support to the IN. It is politically low cost as well as IN is not basing its assets over seas.

JMT

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Christopher Sidor » 27 Oct 2010 11:21

Surya wrote:nice thoughts but like the using highways for fighter aircraft not that practical.

I would disagree. The yanks had mandated, that the inter-state highways they build had to have atelast 3-5 kms without any curves in certain sections. They also mandated that these straight sections had to be strong enough to carry the weight of a fully laden fighter, without any obstructions what so over. Some even said that a Boeing 707/727 could land on these stretches if need arose, but I was unable to get a confirmation for the same.
The purpose was, in case of a nuclear attack, when the airfields were to become un-operational, these highway stretches can be used instead. The beauty was, due to such high standards, they were able to run more heavier freight trucks on their highways, thus giving a flip to their economic development.

This was copied by Sweden also. Which even designed Grippen with such a scenario in mind.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 27 Oct 2010 12:42

Air Arm to Highlight Neglect at Naval Conference
Daily News & Analysis
Air Arm to Highlight Neglect at Naval Conference
Published: Wednesday, Oct 27, 2010, 3:18 IST
By Suman Sharma | Place: New Delhi | Agency: PTI

The Indian navy’s air arm will make a presentation, a copy of which is with DNA, at the ongoing biannual four-day naval commanders’ conference in New Delhi, to draw the attention of the top brass to its neglect.

It will seek MidLife Upgrades, Computerisation, Additional Air Stations and Acquisitions for Sustenance.

The naval commanders will talk new acquisitions, better and upgraded infrastructure for aircraft maintenance, repair, new naval air stations and enclaves.

The navy has also proposed an auto air traffic management system, much like Indian Air Force (IAF). It has a manual system for control of air traffic, but wants a computerised one to enable auto exchange of flight data, efficient communication interface and instant sharing of flight messages.

Upgrade of naval aircraft yards (NAYs) and material organisations (MO) on the lines of IAF’s BRDs (base repair depots), repairs, maintenance and spares have been proposed, and, ministry of defence (MoD) is considering.

There are two NAYs, in Goa for eastern-origin aircraft, and in Kochi for western-origin aircraft.

MiG-29Ks, which were inducted into the navy in February and undergoing trials, will have one squadron each in Goa and Visakhapatnam.

Limited Upgrade of Sea Harriers, according to the Presentation report, has been Completed, and a Product Support Agreement Concluded with BAE Systems till 2015. A Proposal for Spares support for Five Years is expected by next month.

Repairs to a damaged Kamov-31 helicopter are on the anvil and six Kamov-28 choppers are due for overhauling and midlife upgrade, which includes fitting multi-function displays in cockpits and a complete change of avionics and sensors.


The navy has also proposed setting up five additional air stations in Belgaum (Karnataka), Ratnagiri (Maharashtra), Porbandar (Gujarat), Campbell Bay (Great Nicobar) and Shibpur (Bengal) for maritime reconnaissance by choppers.

The navy has seven air stations in Goa, Visakhapatnam, Rajali, Port Blair, Shikra in Mumbai, Kochi and Ramnad in Tamil Nadu. There is a case for setting up four air enclaves.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Surya » 27 Oct 2010 16:40

would disagree. The yanks had mandated, that the inter-state highways they build had to have atelast 3-5 kms without any curves in certain sections. They also mandated that these straight sections had to be strong enough to carry the weight of a fully laden fighter, without any obstructions what so over


Understand Sweden's use of it

This has been discussed in the past - the IAF evaluated it and did not find it very worthwhile.

Am sure in some emergency it could be of limited use but notbeyond that.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nachiket » 27 Oct 2010 17:44

Pratyush wrote:Singha,

I feel that the better idea will be to use Sing(H)apur. As it has better aridefence and fairly well developed industrial capability. Also it is located at a vital international choke point. failing which use vietnam as a logisticle base and IN fleet sils out of main land India and the fleet tankers are fueled at vietnam. This has two advantages. In fleet can operate for longer duration in South china sea and the Vietnamies can say to the PRC that we are just providing logisticle support to the IN. It is politically low cost as well as IN is not basing its assets over seas.

JMT

Yes but such bases will be subject to the whims of a foreign government. We need something which is completely under our control. A&N naval and air bases need to be developed to the full extent possible.


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Oct 2010 18:56

at present singapore is firmly in US camp and need not "choose" between india/china - it is benefitting from economic growth in both and would like to keep it that way. chinese have never overtly threatened singapore in public.

so there is no chance that we can gain a permanent base there , but ofcourse we can ask for refueling and food facilities for IN ships patrolling in that region, just as the USN does. submarines its anyway preferable not to use foreign ports.

there is no option but to make a pearl harbour somewhere in the A&N chain.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby venku_Raj » 28 Oct 2010 09:11


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 28 Oct 2010 10:20

Naval bases to come up at Thoothukudi & Paradip
Thoothukudi and Paradip would be developed into forward operating bases by the Navy as it seeks to strengthen its position on the eastern coast.

The move is aimed at reducing the turn-around time of the eastern fleet that depended only on Visakhapatnam and Chennai for replenishments.

The west coast is already packed with the navy having forward operating bases at Porbandar and Mangalore apart from major hubs at Mumbai, Kochi and Karwar.

The issue of their development plan was discussed at the naval commanders’ conference that got underway in New Delhi.

It would not be a difficult task as Paradip and Thoothukudi are already major ports and would be able to meet navy’s logistical demands, said officials.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 28 Oct 2010 11:18

Singha,

The issue I have with Port blair is that it is not so far from the main land that its existance as a forward base will make too great a diffrence to the deployment patterns of the IN.

The only way Port Blair makes sense is as a base for OPVs for fishery protection.

For the IAF it is a seperate matter alltogeter. They must have a presence in the A&N Islands.

When I look at the IN operating in the east. The Area of operation for me is automatically the South China Sea. For that purpose Port blair if it exists as a base will add not more then 3 to 5 days to a naval patrol. If we are thinking of fixed duration patrols and the vessels are staging from Vizag. In that event the Advantage offered is not that great. More over the absence of Industrial facilities along with skilled personnel in Port bair also negates its locational advantages.

Having said that, if the fleet can use Singapur or Vietnam as a base from where the Fleet tankers are relenished for the patrolling combat vessels. It will give us all the advantages of having a base in the forward areas without the adverse political consequences of an overseas base.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 28 Oct 2010 14:21

Two Naval Bases Okayed in Orissa, Tamil Nadu
The Tribune, Chandigarh, India
ImageImage
Two Naval Bases Okayed in Orissa, Tamil Nadu

* New naval bases to come up on the Eastern sea board at Paradip and Tuticorin
* These will be the first major naval bases other that Vizag on the eastern coast

Ajay Banerjee
/TNS
New Delhi, October 27

In an apparent bid to counter China’s growing presence in the Bay of Bengal, especially its new forays in Bangladesh and Myanmar, the Indian Government has okayed two new naval bases on the Eastern sea board - Paradip and Tuticorin in Orissa and Tamil Nadu, respectively.

These will be the first major naval bases other that Vizag on the eastern coast. The Navy has smaller stations but no big bases that typically provide all logistics support like supplies, replenishment, repair and maintenance.

Paradip has a commercial port. Though the east coast as a host of Coast Guard stations, the decision was taken to ramp up Naval presence, sources said.

China has announced its intention to build a deep sea port at Sonadia near Cox Bazar Bangladesh. It is also building ports in Myanmar. All these are in the Bay of Bengal and face India.

Most of country’s missile tests are conducted off the east coast. India’s “look east” policy aims at engaging smaller navies that are east of India. For them this will be a huge morale booster as all of them regularly conduct exercises with India, said sources.

Defence Minister AK Antony today told top Naval Commanders that “due priority” will be given to creation of new operational and administrative infrastructure in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands and Lakshadweep & Minicoy Islands.

Antony, while addressing the top brass of the Navy at the bi-annual commanders conference, asked the Navy to further strengthen professional ties, mutual trust and streamline capacity to inter-operate with the navies of countries of the Indian Ocean.

China’s main oil supply routes pass through these waters and it is very fidgety about India’s control over the Indian Ocean.

Antony called for “…a state of perpetual operational readiness”.

The Defence Minister said Navy’s responsibilities in the Indian Ocean Region are crucial as well as sensitive from the point of view of economic prosperity and security of the nation.

Antony told the Navy commanders “…engage like-minded African states in the western Indian Ocean Region, such as Mozambique, South Africa, Tanzania and Kenya, to enhance strengths and stability”.

He made specific reference to Sri Lanka saying there was a need to sustain the momentum of cooperation with Sri Lanka to ensure peaceful fishing on either side of the International Maritime Boundary Line and to prevent a possible resurgence of the LTTE.

Earlier, Naval Chief Admiral Nirmal Verma commended the Naval commands for integrating coastal population into the coastal security architecture through widespread campaigns — 33 in this year alone.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gagan » 29 Oct 2010 01:54

The Andaman Islands are a good 3-4 day sailing distance from the mainland, the Nicobar group are about 1 more day away.

What advantage is gained by having the IN get replenishment from a neighbouring foriegn port where the IN ship movements, communications, supplies etc can be easily monitored? The same can be done stealthily from the A&N islands.

India needs to start using the islands as a big supply and replenishment base, and keep the area well stocked. There are plenty of natural harbours there (other than port blair) that can be developed.

The channel between Great Nicobar and Sumatra is one of the biggest shipping lanes in the world, and this is just off shore off the IN and Airforce base at car nicobar. The only problem that area has is that there have been regular earthquakes there, and the great indian ocean tsunamis that have resulted from the earth's plates movements.

I feel that uptill a few years back, patrolling across the straights of malacca was not such a big priority for the IN. But things are changing.

Having a big daddy base there will cause some of the SE asia nations uneasy, and also the pakees down south of the equator will holler bloody moider for no reason.


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gagan » 29 Oct 2010 03:54

Which is the third?
1: INS Vikramaditya
2. INS Vikrant - building in kochi.
3. There is no carrier building in India that'll join the fleet in 5-7 years.

Looks like QE == INS Viraat/Vishaal

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nachiket » 29 Oct 2010 04:03

Is it possible that Mananiya Raksha mantri is talking through his hat? Unless we figure out how to grow A/Cs on trees, the IN will not have 3 A/Cs in 5-7 years. Or maybe they are not planning on decommissioning the Viraat just yet.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gagan » 29 Oct 2010 05:31

It can only mean two things,
1. He meant another foreign aquisition of a carrier. (Which I very much doubt, given that the IN will have two carriers, and not enough pilots or aircraft to equip 3)
2. He goofed up on the english, (which he does often) or the reporter deliberately twisted the headline (DDM onlee). He meant that the IN will be operating upto 3 carriers in 5-7 years (when the ADS will be commissioned).

What ever, the reason, clarifications need to be tendered. Or we are heading into another round of
Will it be the QE class carrier
Will it be the retired british flattop?
Will it be the retired USN carrier?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Anurag » 29 Oct 2010 06:33

Boys..the IAC-II. Possibly of a displacement of 65,000 T. Target commissioning around '17-'18 time frame...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 29 Oct 2010 10:35

But for that the start wil have to be made now, with all aspects of the design the funding the pre order of the raw materials plus the airgroup.

So the indipendent coroboration for this will come in the nearfuture if the above mentioned items will are acquired by the shipyard and the MOD / Navy.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Nihat » 29 Oct 2010 11:49

Assuming an upper limit of 7 years according to Shri AKA and 2 more years of planning for IAC-II uptill late 2012 . Is it not safe to assume that a carrier can be built in a furthur 5 years.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby VikB » 29 Oct 2010 18:19

^^^ No need to jump up and down on this junta. There will be a slight overlap when we will have IAC and Vikramaditya both commissioned and Viraat still around. That is how we get figure of 3. Then few years ( I think 2016ish) it will be back to 2.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 29 Oct 2010 23:04

Austin saab is this the Article in IndiaToday you were refering to regarding the Second SSN Akula-2 :?:

Cross - Post

Image
India Today » The Big Story
The ChiPak Threat
Image Sandeep Unnithan
This is What the Eleventh Plan Outlines for Meeting this New Threat :-

One Mountain Strike Corps Headquarters with 4,000 Support Troops.

Two Mountain Divisions with 32,000 Troops.

One Armoured Brigade with 3,000 Troops and 135 Tanks.

One Amphibious Brigade with 3,500 Soldiers.

Raising a Third Artillery Division with around 180 Guns.

Prepare the Indian Army for High Intensity War against a Nuclear-Biological-Chemical (NBC) Backdrop by Developing Capabilities to Withstand NBC Attacks and Remain Battleworthy to Fight Efficiently in a Contaminated Environment.

One Nuclear-Powered Attack Submarine or SSN (Akula-2 INS Chakra being leased from Russia in 2011. Second SSN in the Twelfth Plan).

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 30 Oct 2010 04:28


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 30 Oct 2010 04:47

Would be great to get the Ark Royal for peanuts and add the Harriers that the RN is retiring. Insurance policy at low cost.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 30 Oct 2010 10:32

and what capability would they add to our needs ? a toothless old carrier with very limited SAM or ASW capability and a aeging harrier thats useless for long range fleet air defence? all at high cost in british pounds and unique set of equipment.

far better we settle on a new LPH design and do a mix of buy and build with the vendor - japan/soko/spain/italy/france/netherland.

the british illustrious/ark royal/invincible types were meant to do ASW in GIUK gap and limited degree of patrols against LRMP....protected against backfire attacks by CVNs launching F-14s and F-18s for extended CAPs and Keflavik type bases in Iceland hosting wings of NATO fighters....these lil ships cannot survive along against a serious air attack for sure.

to play in the south china sea we need 'strike carriers' with atleast 60 fighters each - PLANAF has a AF all its own + PLAAF will come out. to do ASW properly we need LPH-cum-ASW ships packed to the gunwales with EC725/SH60/EH101 type helis ...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vic » 30 Oct 2010 10:52

Cosmo_R wrote:Would be great to get the Ark Royal for peanuts and add the Harriers that the RN is retiring. Insurance policy at low cost.



Cost of spares, upgradation etc can be sometimes more than the cost of a new Aircraft. Look at Mirage upgradation costs

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 30 Oct 2010 11:12

IF we can get the Ark Royal on the cheap,she would be an ideal interim amphiob ops platform,with Sea King Commando helos or equiv operating from her deck.Plus,the Harriers would peform close air suppport for marines,just as they are doing strike ops in Iraq and Af-Pak.The acquisiition costs would be far less than building a new amphib vessel and equipping it with aircraft 5-6 years from now! WE would have the capability immediately not 5 years hence.If we could buy that ol;d rust bucket,Trenton 30+ yrs old and her dilapidated Sea Kings,why not the far newer Ark Royal and her aircraft? We earlier bought both Vikrant and Viraat,ex-RN carriers and used them for decades very well.WE have excellent excperience in operating ex.RN carriers and can do so again.Acquiring the Ark Royal will also put less strain on the Viraat's ops,as she and the Ark can conduct missions alternatively.Having a second Harrier carrier with about 40+ Harriers in service will serve us well until 2020,when we will have the Gorky/Vik,IAC 1&2 (or QE-2?) in service.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 30 Oct 2010 12:58

I think old ships are best avoided we can learn from Gorshkov and Jalashwa experience , they tend to be unique & expensive to maintain and cannot put high times at sea and will age much faster.

It is better we build such ships in India by Public/Private yard and if that is too much we can just let SoKo build such ships for us.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Surya » 30 Oct 2010 19:05

Philip

still do not get you

why would you compound one mistake or 2 mistakes with a third one???

Agree with Austin and Singha - we have to be careful with these old boats

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 30 Oct 2010 19:44

The emphasis was on "Insurance" in the event that Vikramaditya gets delayed yet again beyond 2012, the IAC 1 delayed until 2016 and the Viraat finally expires in 2015. Even if 1 carrier is operational, the IN has little air cover for its growing fleet.

From Wikipedia:

"On 22 March 2007, HMS Ark Royal was returned to the Royal Navy Fleet after a two-year refit worth £18 million." The ship was launched in 1981 and commissioned in 1985. The Viraat OTOH was launched in 1953 and commissioned in 1959 and we're still using the damn thing.

Of course, it would be better to get new boats but...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Nirmal » 30 Oct 2010 20:38

Austin wrote:I think old ships are best avoided we can learn from Gorshkov and Jalashwa experience , they tend to be unique & expensive to maintain and cannot put high times at sea and will age much faster.

It is better we build such ships in India by Public/Private yard and if that is too much we can just let SoKo build such ships for us.

Austin,
Would it not be prudent to buy the Ark Roal (If it is going very cheap) and modernise with indegenous spares and manpower in a L&T or Adani shipyard which will not impact our current on going projects? It will provide a learning curve and still surprise our current shipards. No timelines should be set for its modernisation. Something like what chinese are doing with variyag? Just thingking aloud.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 30 Oct 2010 22:34

Nirmal wrote:Would it not be prudent to buy the Ark Roal (If it is going very cheap) and modernise with indegenous spares and manpower in a L&T or Adani shipyard which will not impact our current on going projects? It will provide a learning curve and still surprise our current shipards. No timelines should be set for its modernisation. Something like what chinese are doing with variyag? Just thingking aloud.


Ark Royal may be cheap to buy but may end up being expensive to operate at 2010 she is already 25 years old ship , I do not know where do you get the idea of indigenous spares , the spares will have to come from OEM and as time passes by it will just get difficult and expensive to get spares , she will end up with expensive refit and will spend more time at docks in a year then at sea much like the old Viraat.

We are better of spending that money for IAC-2 or get a new tanker/amphibious ship from Indian or SoKo SY.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby putnanja » 31 Oct 2010 10:08

Navy to buy anti-submarine bombs for aviation fleet

...
To strengthen its anti-submarine warfare capability, the Indian Navy will soon buy bombs that can be air-dropped to hit enemy vessels lurking in the dark underwaters.

The defence ministry has issued a request to original equipment manufacturers and vendors for information on such bombs, which could be USED by Navy's fixed-wing aircraft.

....
...
The navy is searching for bombs that are effective in sinking submarines in tropical conditions that prevail in the Indian Ocean region in depths up to 1,000m.

"The bombs should have sufficient high explosive to destroy target submarine at proximity distance. The conventional warheads' shelf-life should be about 30 years," the officer said.

Apart from the bombs for war-time deployment, the navy will buy its practice version too, but it will be an operational bomb in all respects except the warhead, which would be replaced by inert material.

..
...


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SaiK » 01 Nov 2010 02:00

http://www.bharatrakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=13705
Such platforms come equipped with C4ISR (Command, Control, Communications, Computer, Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance)..



On the table
India will be buying four more P8I planes for $1 billion (Rs 4,500 crore). It also ordered six C-130J Super Hercules aircraft from the US for $1 billion (Rs 4,500 crore) in 2008.
Talks are in final stages for buying 10 Boeing C-17 Globemaster III military transport aircraft worth $5.8 billion (Rs 26,100 crore).
Team Obama will also be batting for US aerospace and defence giants Boeing and Lockheed Martin who are locked in competition with European and Russian rivals eyeing the $10.2 billion (Rs 45,900 crore) contract to supply 126 fighter planes to the Indian Air Force.


How much of these planes are worth that money without CISMOA controlled equipments. Are the tax payer money correctly used? where is CAG?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 01 Nov 2010 15:47

Teg will start harbour trials only in late November. Delivery of weapon systems has been delayed 3-6 months, Shtil SAM was delivered only in October, A-190 main gun will be delivered in November.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 01 Nov 2010 15:51

Any news (Paanwala/ Chaiwala/ Vodkawala) how much extra money is being asked by the Russians for the latest delays for the Chakra.


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