Indian Naval Discussion

[Pratyush]

Agreed,

I have often thought of a similar capability for the IAF. However if the IAF is reluctant to evaluate this capability then they must be having their reasons. What they may be I have no Idea.

Moreover, I am all for acquiring the Brit hariers for the fleet if they have service lives left in them.

JMT

[Philip]

Some more om Vietnam's offer.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... China.html

Vietnam offers navy base to foil China
Foreign navies are to be given access to Vietnam's Cam Ranh Bay, a naval stronghold that was a key Cold War outpost that is now emerging as a vital base to counter Chinese dominance of the South China Sea.

Nyugen Tan Dung, the Vietnamese prime minister, said Cam Ranh Bay, 180 miles north west of Ho Chi Minh city, would stand ready to service ships and submarines "from all countries".

Russia is to help rebuild the port as part of an £1.3 billion defence deal signed earlier this year.

The move is one of a series of interlocking regional arrangements that are being put in place to counter China's growing might.

In October, Vietnam signed an agreement giving Indian naval ships base facilities at its ports. India, in turn, agreed to help Hanoi expand its naval logistics capabilities, and to train its army in jungle warfare.

Russia is selling Vietnam a raft of state of the art military hardware, including six submarines and 20 Sukhoi 30 fighters.

The port was used as a naval base for the French forces in Indochina, by the Japanese navy in 1942, by the US Navy during the Vietnam war, and by the Russians during the Cold War.

Beijing and Hanoi have been locked in an increasingly bitter dispute over the oil and gas rich South China Sea.

China has laid claim to the entire 1 million square mile South China Sea, and its ships have harassed Vietnamese fishing boats and oil exploration teams.

Beijing has said it will not negotiate the overlapping claims of Vietnam, Thailand, the Philippines, Brunei and Malaysia multilaterally – a decision that critics say gives East Asia's principal power an automatic advantage.

"Multilateral talks involve too many parties and their interests," said Xu Guangyu, a Beijing-based analyst, "and have a low success rate. Look at the six party talks over North Korea."

In March, China despatched patrol boats to the Spratly Islands after saying its fishing fleet was being harassed by Vietnam's coast guard.

Vietnam responded by sending its president to visit the islands, accompanied by two destroyers. Last week, China launched live-fire naval exercise in the South China Sea to underline its strength.

"We have sent out a strong and clear signal that the strengthening of China's national power is unstoppable," said Li Jie, a strategist at the Peoples' Liberation Army Naval Research Institute.

[Juggi G]

WASS Launches Subsidiary In India For Underwater Systems

[Vinit]

Pratyush,during the Cold War,the RAF deployed Harriers in W.Germany in small clearings close to the E.German borders heavily camouflaged.Even when given hints as to the the locations,recce aircraft could not spot them.This system of dployment would be excellent in the A&N islands,where similar "clearings" could be made operational just as emergency airstrips are also put into use in times of crisis.With the reluctance of the IAF to acquire Harriers,another type to operate,these "mini-bases" could come under the command of the IN instead,which operates Harriers.

I give you an excellent example of how useful this tactic works with that of the LTTE's light aircraft concealed very well in the northern jungles of Lanka,which the SLAF could not locate,and using camouflaged containers for logistic support and small jungle tracks to launch the aircraft.It was only when the SLA overran the LTTE controlled territory did these locations and tactics became exposed.Harriers could use STOVL methods just as they are being used on the Viraat.

Add to the use of STOVL Harriers on the A&N islands the additional operation of amphibians,one would have an excellent method of sanitising the islands during any conflict,preventing them from being used by enemy inflitrators and for launching surpise strikes against enemy ships and subs transiting the Malacca Straits.With a closer cooperation with Indonesia,which seems to be in the works,we could have our own version of a "string of steel" in the eastern part of the IOR.

The West German deployment of the Harriers, as above, might not be comparable to their deployment in the Andamans. In a European cold war scenario, the West Germans would be facing a quick onslaught of massive numbers of Warsaw pact forces, and the Harriers would be able to react quickly over short ranges for ground attacks, coupled with quick turnaround and wide dispersal to avoid attacks by a numerically superior enemy.

I don't foresee such a scenario in the Andamans where we could effectively deploy the Harrier given the costs of purchasing and maintaining them, particularly in small dispersed locations. A surprise or rapid attack on the Andamans with large numbers of enemy forces is somewhat unlikely, and these Harriers might not be the best choice for island defence given their (relatively) short legs, low payload, and sub-optimal radar and avionics.

[Singha]

better is a major air and naval base in great nicobar island, which is nearest to malacca - by 320km compared to car nicobar iaf base. it also overlooks the main shipping channel used by malacca traffic.

[shukla]

Michelle Obama photo churns scandal in Indian Navy
Indian Express

Vice Admiral (Western Naval Command) Sanjeev Bhasin took his wife Rajni aboard INS Shikra during President Barack Obama’s visit, she shook hands with Michelle Obama, and a photograph of the handshake appeared in a local tabloid Monday, thereby generating a controversy.
This, certain sections in the state government feel, was “an embarrassing breach of protocol”. The Navy officer, however, said taking his wife along was “standard protocol”.

Sources in the state government told Newsline they were left red-faced when Bhasin bypassed protocol by taking his wife with him before the Obamas flew to the airport on Marine One on Sunday afternoon. They said he “made available to the media” the photograph of the handshake between Rajni Bhasin and Michelle Obama, with their husbands in the background.

“This was an alarming and highly embarrassing breach of protocol, as Bhasin’s wife was not supposed to be present for the departure of the Obamas. Not only this, despite obvious displeasure and annoyance shown by the protocol minister present there, the Vice Admiral made it a point to get a photograph clicked by two captains. This was then given to the media since they were not allowed any access to the helicopter base,” said a source.

In his own defence..

“Our protocol dictates that if any visiting or our own head of state, such as a Prime Minister or a President, visits a naval base or ship alone and unaccompanied by their spouse, I have to receive them and see them off. I have done so in the past when our President has visited a naval ship here. In this case, since President Obama was accompanied by his wife, my wife too was present with me to see them off. This is standard protocol... Even when President Obama and his wife Michelle landed at Palam airport in New Delhi, they were greeted by the chief military officer there. His wife was not present, since Prime Minister Singh and his wife were personally there to greet them.”

Asked how a photograph was published by the tabloid when the media was kept out of the base, Bhasin replied, “Well, after the event, a lot of the media wanted inputs on what sort of arrangements had been put in place at INS Shikra, and whether US security personnel were involved. They were told that inside the base all security was handled exclusively by our marine commandos. When the media was asking for basic photographs of the event, I saw nothing wrong in it. I did not even think it would get any coverage.”

Navy sources said it was normal protocol for the commanding officer of a base to greet visiting heads of state with their wives if the guest was also accompanied by his wife. However, in this particular case, they were not sure whether the list of names exchanged in advance and the protocol laid down allowed for Bhasin’s wife to be present.

[Philip]

This not a "scandal" at all,merely a controversy.There has been NO financial impropriety,forgery,bribery,skullduggery,espionage,blah,blah at all.R.Adm Bhasin seems to be picked upon because he is the man who delivered the Adarsh KO! As far as I know,it was perfectly correct for him to have his wife along when a VVIP was also accompanied by his wife.Courtesy and etiquette demands that a wife is attended to by another lady,ususally the spouse of the CO.

[Surya]

Philip is right

The high and mighty are hitting back for the Adarsh scam and this is the best they could find

and Shame on Indian Express - once known for its exposes for allowing itself to be a lifafa paper

[chackojoseph]

Why India needs to opt in for Nuclear Submarines? Cmde (retd) Ranjit B. Rai

[Mukesh.Kumar]

Seems India is getting a second Akula after all.

It was only six years ago that then Defence Ministers of India Pranab Mukherjee and Sergei Ivanov of Russia, jointly acknowledged the ATV project in pubic in Moscow for the first time and wowed to complete it. India also secretly clinched the deal to take Akula nulcear submarines on lease on the lines of the INS Chakra, but with full control. Many feel Russia readily agreed, as the funding for rejuvenating the Akulas, Nerpa and Jaguar came through the advances for the 1000X 2 Kundankulam nuclear power projects, and they needed the business. A few thousand of crores has also been spent on INS Arihant which has Russian assistance and equipment makes it the next most expensive DRDO project along with the LCA. Possibly the most expensive.

http://www.bharatrakshak.com/NEWS/newsr ... wsid=13753

[Mukesh.Kumar]

Seems like the rumour I had heard from the 'chaiwala' is true. The hull number K-337, is called "Kuguar" and being built in SEVMASH, Servodoinsk.

A question to all guru's. Is there any submarine being built for India in Severodvinsk @ Sevmash.

Just back a trip from the region and was surprised to hear a rumor from a 'chaiwala' on something like this.

Mods, I know this is a shot in the dark, but was rather excited about it. So please remove comments if you feel this is not the apt.

Added Later:Most probably the name will not be Jaguar but 'Кугуар' i.e. "Cougar.

[dinesha]

^^^^ From the above link

which opened its portals and a large number of naval officers hold M(Tech) degrees in nuclear engineering from BARC. The nuclear reactor in INS Chakra was maintained by Russians on board and all activities kept secret, including those of the ATV even from other service chiefs, and senior officers of the Indian Navy.

It was only six years ago that then Defence Ministers of India Pranab Mukherjee and Sergei Ivanov of Russia, jointly acknowledged the ATV project in pubic in Moscow for the first time and wowed to complete it. India also secretly clinched the deal to take Akula nulcear submarines on lease on the lines of the INS Chakra, but with full control.

[sum]

Seems like the rumour I had heard from the 'chaiwala' is true. The hull number K-337, is called "Kuguar" and being built in SEVMASH, Servodoinsk.

A new nuke sub being built just for the SDREs?

All i can say is wow ( cant show actual emotions on reading this news using PhP)

[Philip]

Since we are on the discussion of subs for the IN,here is an insight into an Oz analyst who says that Oz requires "12 subs,with LR cruise missiles" to met the PLAN threat.By 2030,China will have "100subs"!
Inbdia too must as the Oz prof. says ,study carefully its "strategic geography" well and evolve a plan to equip the IN with a variety of assets to counter the PLAN gameplan.The key deficiency right now in the IN's strength is the rapidly decline in numbers of our subs.

The GOI has to act very,very fast if we are not to be outnumbered and outclassed by the Sino-Pak-NoKo axis.I posted elsewhere a report that NoKo have developed a 2500km sub-launched ballistic missile.The GOI/IN should take very seriously the offer made by a Russian analyst that Russia should provide India with Oscar class SSGNs and Tupolev Backfire strategic/LRMP bombers.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/na ... 5950362509

"Too much of the defence debate in this country is preoccupied with the short term. There is a blindness in Australia towards the need to do our utmost to shape our own strategic future.

"We need to return to the fundamental importance of our strategic geography and focus on the potentially threatening historical changes that are about to occur to the geopolitical landscape in our part of the world."

Professor Dibb will stress that Australia needs a larger submarine force and a potent air force and he will deride the purchase for the navy of two giant military transports.

"We do not require two 27,000-tonne amphibious assault ships that will require protection by most of our surface, sub-surface and combat air patrol forces so they can put a token land force ashore."

By 2030, China could have 100 quiet, modern submarines.

Australia needs a submarine force to protect its interests at sea against increasingly credible adversaries, he will say.

The boats need to be able to fight in a region extending from the eastern Indian Ocean to the South Pacific and from Southeast Asian waters, including the South China Sea, to the Southern ocean. They need to be able to work with allied navies in high-intensity combat.

The US has only 26 attack submarines in the Pacific compared with China's 62.

PS:The Greeks have finally decided to acquire the German U-boats contracted for.This is due to the German bail-out of the Greek economy.It also almost ends the prospect of India getting a "quick-fix" to our sub inventory crisis by acquiring the Greek order for U-214s.

[darshhan]

Check out the following article.According to the author Chinese are justified in expanding their presence in Indian Ocean as Indians are not aggresive enough.

http://www.informationdissemination.net ... qus_thread

I've been thinking about some commentary I've been reading regarding the way China and India view each other. I wouldn't call this a Chinese Proverb per se, but there is a viewpoint in China that India isn't a very mature nation because they lack maturity in governance. Some might say that is like the pot calling the kettle black - and some might be right.

One of the more interesting arguments I have read for increased PLA Navy presence in the Indian Ocean is the argument India has such a high threshold for action that they won't police their own front lawn (The Indian Ocean).

I might be starting to believe that argument, and I'll give an example. That reported hijacking of MV Hannibal II took place along a major sea lane between Mumbai and the Suez canal, somewhere around 530 nautical miles from Mumbai. There have been attacks in the same area a few other times this year. This isn't just any city in the world, we are talking about Mumbai - the fifth largest municipality in the world. In the 2007-2008 shipping year, the Port of Mumbai handled a total of over 57 million tons of cargo, including 32.4 million tons of imports and 24.7 million tons of exports. The Port of Mumbai handled 1.4 million tons of containerized cargo in 117.6 thousand TEUs. The Port of Mumbai is also the gateway for more than half of India's sea-going passengers.

I think about piracy so near India and ask myself, what would any supposed major military power other than India do? Seriously, India has the worlds 4th largest Navy and even when considering the most optimistic Navy plans for every nation, India will operate more aircraft carriers than any nation besides the United States, will operate the third largest submarine force, and operate the fourth largest surface combatant force compared to every other Navy in the world by 2020.

But pirates can operate motherships and hijack vessels in late 2010 only 530 nautical miles off one of India's busiest ports? Apparently - YES.

Think about it like this. How many attacks, nevermind hijackings, would the United States tolerate from pirates 530 nautical miles off New York City in the main transit lane to London?
Can anyone imagine a single pirate attack, much less hijacking, being tolerated beyond a single time on a major sea lane 530nm from any major European, South American, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, or South Korean port? When the ARCTIC SEA was reportedly hijacked in 2009 near France, it was considered such a major international incident that NATO got involved - and ultimately half the deployed Russian surface Navy at the time was deployed to take care of it.

When China starts sending 4 surface combatants to protect commerce in the Indian Ocean instead of two, the only people the Indian government can blame is themselves. The Indian government threshold for caring about maritime security in their sphere of influence does not appear to be significantly greater than China's threshold when it comes to piracy - and may actually be lower in the future.

We Americans may think of it as "just piracy" but it also isn't our commerce. The irony here is that India is heavily dependent upon the maritime industry - Indians make up a huge percentage of the total global sea merchant workforce and their are some rather impressive mariner unions in India - but it doesn't seem to matter. It is European and Asian commerce and both the European and Asian Navies operate a rather large number of ships compared to India. With the problem not slowing down any in 2010, and this imagery is the record, I suspect the size of the international force will grow even larger next year.

Complaining China is being too aggressive in India's sphere of influence sounds hollow to me when India refuses to commit the resources necessary to keep the trash off their own lawn. No other major power in the world tolerates maritime insecurity like piracy within their major sea trade lanes. While India may desire to own the naval equipment of a major power, their inability to exercise the use of naval equipment like a major power leaves me thinking China is exactly right to be concerned - and exactly right to be thinking about how they will have to project power into the Indian Ocean in the future.

While I do not agree with the complete article , the author does have a valid point or two.India has to be more aggresive(including in terms of resource deployment) in Indian Ocean Region if it wants to be respected.

[krisna]

PHOTOS: Indian Navy Foils Pirates, Again
Photos are present

At about 6 AM on 11 Nov, about 450 nautical miles West of Mumbai, a merchant ship MV BBC Orinoco with a crew of 14 (5 Ukraine and 9 Philippino) reported being attacked by pirates. The crew locked themselves in the ships Engine room and the Steering compartment and communicated with their agents, UK MTO Dubai, on e-mail. Dubai, in turn, intimated the Indian Navy for assistance.

On receipt of this information, the Indian Navy promptly detached one of its missile corvettes, INS Veer, to intercept the distressed vessel and also sailed a destroyer INS Delhi with a team of Marine Commandos (MARCOS) embarked. One of the Navy's long range maritime ratrol aircraft (Ilyushin-38) was extensively deployed for aerial surveillance. The Indian Coast Guard, too, responded with alacrity adjusting all routine deployments to keep one or more Dornier aircraft on hot standby, besides asking their ships on assigned mission to be also on stand-by.

At daybreak, the naval forces, which had arrived at the scene, commenced their actions. MARCOS slithered onto the merchant ship from a Sea King helicopter and took the crew, who were locked in compartments, to safety, while the helicopter provided air borne fire support. The merchantman was boarded by naval personnel and a thorough search is currently in progress. The ship will set course for its destination once the boarding party reports all clear. Although no pirates remain onboard, implements such as crow bar, knives etc., were found aboard the ship.

MV BBC Orinoco is a General Cargo Carrier and is registered in Antigua and Barbuda.

Photos Courtesy Indian Navy

[Singha]

450 miles west off mumbai is way off the pirates haunt in SW corner of IOR. its not a good sign they are able to sail 1000 km out and cause problems.
I am sure pakis are exploring option of keeping such a band of 'pirates' on the payroll in makran coast to disrupt indian shipping and raise costs - imagine the operating cost of sending a patrol craft, a DDG and two a.c to the scene 500km from base....create 5 such incidents and anyone would be stretched.

this could be a paki scheme to test indian response and scope out their plans. we must make sure any pirates found are mercilessly put in davy jones locker with no trial or offloading to land. the message has to be loud and clear - mess with us but you will pay heavily if we catch you.

[dinesha]

DCNS, Navantia End Scorpene Cooperation
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =EUR&s=SEA

Paris - DCNS and Navantia of Spain have agreed to drop cooperation on the Scorpene conventional diesel-electric attack submarine and go their own ways in undersea warfare, the French naval company company said in a terse statement Nov. 12.

"DCNS and Navantia have put an end to their disagreement concerning their submarine collaboration," DCNS said in a statement. "As a result, the arbitration procedure between them will be terminated."

DCNS will take over sole rights to build and sell the Scorpene, while Navantia will work on its S80 submarine.

"Scorpene submarines will from now on be built and marketed by DCNS. Similarly, S80 submarines will be built and marketed by Navantia," DCNS said. "Neither party will make any further comments."

Under a partnership agreement, DCNS and Navantia shared development and construction of the Scorpene submarine. The two former partners built large subsections in their respective yards in Cherbourg, northern France, and Cartegna, Spain, which were then assembled and delivered to export customers.

But relations between DCNS and Navantia deteriorated after the Spanish company launched its program to build the S80 submarine, which is equipped with a combat management system from Lockheed Martin. The larger S80 is based on an all-new design, which includes air independent propulsion and a land-attack cruise missile.

France has sold Scorpene boats to Brazil, Chile, India and Malaysia.

[Philip]

The Spanish are building a larger AIP version of the Scorpene for Brazil given Brazil's requirement for an "80 day patrol".The IN's Scorpene design has not been studied in detail as the first boats will not have any AIP at all,making them inferior to Pak's AIP Agosta's (quieter with AIP) even though they are of an earlier French design.China is also reportedly building AIP subs with the Stirling AIP system.Pak is to get at least 3 Chinese new design subs apart from its building French Agosta-90s.China may even build/transfer to Pak a nuclear sub or conventional AIP subs with LR cruise missiles that have N-warheads.

[Gurinder P]

450 miles west off mumbai is way off the pirates haunt in SW corner of IOR. its not a good sign they are able to sail 1000 km out and cause problems.
I am sure pakis are exploring option of keeping such a band of 'pirates' on the payroll in makran coast to disrupt indian shipping and raise costs - imagine the operating cost of sending a patrol craft, a DDG and two a.c to the scene 500km from base....create 5 such incidents and anyone would be stretched.

this could be a paki scheme to test indian response and scope out their plans. we must make sure any pirates found are mercilessly put in davy jones locker with no trial or offloading to land. the message has to be loud and clear - mess with us but you will pay heavily if we catch you.

I think you judge to fast. If you do not capture and interrogate the pirates, how would you know if they are Pakistani or not. It is to my knowledge that there are many rotten eggs along the Indian coastline too. You only need to have a few chaps down on their luck and have a ocean going dingy with less than desirable intentions to become pirates right?

As for sending the accused down to Davy Jones locker; well that can only be said if the IN has to react in self defense. Last time I checked, India was a democracy (well on paper at least), and their is such things as constitutional rights for fair and just trials to all accused. Remember, Justice is not a sin but Vengeance is.

[Pratyush]

Gurinder,

Please don't use words such as "(well on paper at least)", it is scoring an own goal.

The suspision raised by Singha cannot be rejected out of hand. Because if it hurts India then the TSP will jump at a chance to take it. This act does. Also there have been reports of the ISI trying to link up with the Somali pirates to hunt Indian trade. We dont know at the moment how sucessfull the endaevour was.

JMT

[Gurinder P]

Gurinder,

Please don't use words such as "(well on paper at least)", it is scoring an own goal.

The suspision raised by Singha cannot be rejected out of hand. Because if it hurts India then the TSP will jump at a chance to take it. This act does. Also there have been reports of the ISI trying to link up with the Somali pirates to hunt Indian trade. We dont know at the moment how sucessfull the endaevour was.

JMT

Well, like Mr. Singha stated; that when the pirates are found, that they be taken out mercilessly. If such acts were to be committed, then India would definitely be on a path towards an authoritarian state. I just stated that their is a paper in some beautiful public building for all people to see that India is a democracy with a constitution that protects every living human soul that enters it sovereign territory; that includes pirates.

Plus, their is a saying that I have heard time and time again: reckless assumptions (assume) make an ass of u and me. As for the ISI, their are countless terrorist actions happening within Pakistan itself. Isn't it counter-intuitive for play with fire while ones house is burning down? Plus, I cannot see Somali motherships making a trek across the Arabian sea to lurk on Indian sea lanes, when they could access the choke points at the horn of Africa and the ISI funding that plus funding the Jihadist groups and pirates in Indonesia to cut off the shipping choke points at that end. But, then again the ISI would be playing with fire again.

[Pratyush]

In the international waters the law of the seas applies and the pirates cannot be prosecuted by India unless they have committed an act of piracy. On the high seas it is very difficult to prove it.

In that situation in the views of some, it may be the best that these individuals are taken out. To prevent them from taking the next available boat and trying to hijack a ship again.

As for India being a democracy, it is for the citizens of India only. For foreigners who have the intent to commit an act piracy don't deserve the protection granted by the Indian constitution. If they are intending to commit such an act against Indian shipping or ships employing Indian crews.

WRT the TSP the situation is simple they are having a civil war between pure and the less pure. I request you to study the threads on the Strat fora to understand the Issues better. Having said that the “Loyal Jihadies” are still targeting India. In this regard I am afraid that you have fallen for the TSP propoganda. That we are a victim of terror just like India is.

In that respect, if the ISI and affiliates manages to get the pirates to target Indian shiping then they would have scored a major coup against India.

Just because they have not been successful dose not mean that they have not tried.

JMT

[Gurinder P]

Mr. Pratyush

Majority of the civilized world can already see that Somalia has succumbed to anarchy because a few fanatics were not challenged by the educated moderates. But that's a whole other issue. I just had a issue with the Indian constitution not being granted to the prisoners. I mean in 1971 there were 90 000 prisoners that were treated quite hospitably by India, under the Geneva Convention. I say if an Indian team captures a group of Pirates the Indian constitution must apply, and if another country, their rules apply.

Also, you stated the Indian constitution only applies to Indian nationals. Here, in Canada, the constitution grants everyone a fair and equal trial and believe me their are a lot of people trying to get in though our coastline.

[Singha]

there is difference between economic illegal migrants and pirates/terrorists. canada has enough cover in the form of big bro next door not to worry about pirates and enough money to give 'due process' to illegal migrants.

[venkat_r]

Good one Singha - equating piracy with terrorism is quite apt, and amending any policies with respect to that would dish out happy justice.

[sanjaykumar]

Here, in Canada, the constitution grants everyone a fair and equal trial and believe me their are a lot of people trying to get in though our coastline.

Hence the haste in making sure that dirty Sri Lankan Tamils don't darken the shores like the Sikhs a century ago.

(Actually the statement itself is false and the people trying to get in may have "a fair and equal share" of the loot on mind more than justice).

[SaiK]

The problem with pakis: there is nothing like good / bad paki. If he is a paki, just fire him.

[shukla]

Ministry of Defence Comments

Measures to Check Sea-Borne Threat

Government has initiated several measures to strengthen Coastal Security in order to guard against sea-borne security threat. For this purpose, the coastal surveillance and patrolling have been enhanced. Joint and operational exercises are conducted on regular basis among the Navy, the Coast Guard, Coastal Police, Customs and others to check the effectiveness of the integrated approach adopted for security of coastal areas.

In addition, continuous review and monitoring of various mechanism are done by the Government at different levels, which include various agencies, like the State/Union Territory authorities. Further, strengthening of the Indian Navy in terms of assets, based on felt needs, is an important ongoing process.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri R. Thamaraiselvan in Lok Sabha today.

Procurement of Submarines
Government constantly reviews the security scenario and accordingly decides to induct appropriate equipment/platforms including submarines. This is a continuous process undertaken through procurement from various indigenous as well as foreign sources in accordance with the provisions laid down in Defence Procurement Procedure to keep the armed forces in a state of readiness to meet any eventuality.

Divulging further details in this regard would not be in the national interest.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Prabodh Panda in Lok Sabha today.

[Pratyush]

Mr. Pratyush

Majority of the civilized world can already see that Somalia has succumbed to anarchy because a few fanatics were not challenged by the educated moderates. But that's a whole other issue. I just had a issue with the Indian constitution not being granted to the prisoners. I mean in 1971 there were 90 000 prisoners that were treated quite hospitably by India, under the Geneva Convention. I say if an Indian team captures a group of Pirates the Indian constitution must apply, and if another country, their rules apply.

Also, you stated the Indian constitution only applies to Indian nationals. Here, in Canada, the constitution grants everyone a fair and equal trial and believe me their are a lot of people trying to get in though our coastline.

Gurinder,

You are confusing the issue of a lawful combatant recognised under the convention and an unlawful activity by a pirate. If the situation discribed by you was to happen. Then as per the international law. The pirates will be repatriated to Somalia on the next ship home. NO punishment, no killing, no consequenses.

That is unless it can be proven that they had in the past sucessfuly hijacked a merchant vessel. In this case they will be tried as per the laws of the nation whose falg the ship was carrying.

I request you again to make your self aquainted with the relevent provesions of the relevent laws.

What I would desire from India is to create a law which states that any one who set out to sea with an intent to comit an act of piracy will be executed as per the provisions of a tribunal constituted for the purposes.

JMT

[tsarkar]

During the Arnab show on CISOMA in Times NOW 2 days back, one of the panelists, a retd admiral of the IN mentioned a system name ( cant remember it and was definitely not the SOSUS) and mentioned that using this, the Americans are updating the Pakis with daily updates on the ORBAT of IN and currnt deployments of all major IN vessels and this was a more serious issue than the CISOMA etc. Anyone have a clue as to what the admiral was talking about and did anyone else see the show?

The system is CENTRIXS - Combined Enterprise Regional Information Exchange System - first installed on Brahmaputra for joint exercises, and I believe installed on other IN ships. IN didnt want to expose its own datalink to send information to US ships, and US suggested CENTRIXS.

In the Arabian Sea, CENTRIXS by all multinational ships is used to gather data on situational awareness (which ship is where), avoid friendly fire incidents (its the "common language" between ships) and coordinate response (say, which warship among the multiple task forces is closest to a piracy incident?).

The data is provided to PN as well. The solution is simple - only few ships that are engaged in multinational operations need to be "enabled" on the CENTRIXS network. Which is what IN has done, only anti piracy ops ships & joint exercise ships use CENTRIXS.

Well, like Mr. Singha stated; that when the pirates are found, that they be taken out mercilessly. If such acts were to be committed, then India would definitely be on a path towards an authoritarian state.

Your statement is INCORRECT and WRONG - constitutionally, legally (including international laws & maritime laws), morally and theologically.

The laws of the sea is clear - Any ship flying an Indian flag is sovreign Indian territory. Any satellite in space with Indian roundrel is sovreign Indian territory. Anyone attacking an Indian ship can be "exterminated". Anyone with "proven hostile intent" on harming Indian soverignity on the high seas can be "exterminated". Any skiff following an Indian merchantman and begging for water can be spared. However, any skiff following an Indian merchantman with RPG/PIKA/AK can be "exterminated", irrespective of whether they fire a bullet or not, because hostile intent is proven.

I just stated that their is a paper in some beautiful public building for all people to see that India is a democracy with a constitution that protects every living human soul that enters it sovereign territory

The Indian constitution protects "every living human soul that enters it sovereign territory" only if there is innocence in that soul.

that includes pirates

No.

If the "living human soul that enters it sovereign territory" is filled with darkness and destruction, then the SAME constitution has provisions for preventing and penalizing those with hostile intent, up to and including extermination.

Added much later - So, when a Lashkar-e-Taiyyaba millitant enters Kashmir across the Line of Control with an AK-47, the security forces can "exterminate" him on detection on LORROS/BFSR even before he fires a bullet at any Indian or even before he tramples a blade of Indian grass. Because hostile intent is proven by the fact he is carrying firearms when there is no threat to him on Indian soil, and because he is sneaking in on a remote location when he could use a designated border entry, and he does not have a visa on a passport authorizing his entry in this nation.

BTW, the constition of India is forged and maintained by a legislature elected by a nation of ONE BILLION PLUS INDEPENDENT CITIZENS.

Majority of the civilized world can already see that Somalia has succumbed to anarchy because a few fanatics were not challenged by the educated moderates.

What if there are NO educated moderates remaining? What if the educated moderates were exterminated by the fanatics? To preserve and protect the rest of the civilised world, those fanatics can be exterminated by the rest of the civilized world.

I just had a issue with the Indian constitution not being granted to the prisoners.

You are incorrectly assuming the Indian constitution is not granted to prisoners. If the prisoners follow their responsibilities under the Geneva Convention, then the Indian constitution protects them under the Geneva Convention. If they are stateless combatents with a proven hostile intent, their extermination is legally/morally/theologically justified.

As the Bhagwad Gita says, Vinashayacha Dushkrita (destruction of evil). If evil is proven, it can be destroyed. However, to add a caveat, due dilligence must be taken to accurately ascertain and confirm hostile intent and guilt before any measures are taken.

It is to my knowledge that there are many rotten eggs along the Indian coastline too.

Well, Mr. Gurinder, this statement of yours sounds quite similar to Senator Joseph MacCarthy's list. Please provide some facts to substantiate this statement, otherwise your case would be thrown out of a court of law.

[Kanson]

^ Nice post tsarkar ji. While inviduals are supposed to know the laws of land, knowing laws of sea is not quite common.

[BijuShet]

Nice post Tsarkarji. Thank you for clarifying the issues concerning piracy on the high seas for Gurinderji and others (myself included).

[Gurinder P]

Tsarkarji, very well proven but you have forgotten to take one account, what if said accused were acting under duress? Plus I really hate McCarthy because as a socialist I find his policies to left wing more stylized like a fascist. I was just trying to prove a fact that every country has ill willed citizens and most of all, I am stating that if fired upon fire back. If combatant is surrendering don't fire back and take him has a prisoner. Terrorists usually fight under a fanatic banner and are willing to fight to the end therefore lethal force is almost always required. Pirates can constitute to the less fortunate trying steal to make money and are not always terrorists.

[Virupaksha]

Tsarkarji, very well proven but you have forgotten to take one account, what if said accused were acting under duress? Plus I really hate McCarthy because as a socialist I find his policies to left wing more stylized like a fascist. I was just trying to prove a fact that every country has ill willed citizens and most of all, I am stating that if fired upon fire back. If combatant is surrendering don't fire back and take him has a prisoner. Terrorists usually fight under a fanatic banner and are willing to fight to the end therefore lethal force is almost always required.

The bolded words explicitly mean you DONT have weapons.

Once you have weapons in high sea, your hostile intentions are "proven".

Remember the victims of pirates have nowhere to hide on high seas.

Pirates can constitute to the less fortunate trying steal to make money and are not always terrorists.

Where did read I same thing before?? Now I remember, it goes something on the lines of "Terrorists can constitute to the less fortunate trying to show their frustrations"

It is such a slippery slope that we are better not going on it. We will be better to show the sympathies to the victims of pirates on high sea rather than the "unfortunate" pirates

[Aditya G]

....
Added much later - So, when a Lashkar-e-Taiyyaba millitant enters Kashmir across the Line of Control with an AK-47, the security forces can "exterminate" him on detection on LORROS/BFSR even before he fires a bullet at any Indian or even before he tramples a blade of Indian grass. Because hostile intent is proven by the fact he is carrying firearms when there is no threat to him on Indian soil, and because he is sneaking in on a remote location when he could use a designated border entry, and he does not have a visa on a passport authorizing his entry in this nation.
.....

Hi, AFAIK in India the troops always offer surrender before they shoot. I recall that this SOP was followed in initial days of Op Vijay as well - which proved disastrous - as they were not aware that the enemy was regular infantry.

[Philip]

I don't know if members saw the ET report about the JSF being offered to India.There are several points to consider before any such offer is pursued further.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 102973.cms

The sudden offer by Lockheed is two-fold.With the F-16 bringing up the rear in the MMRCA stakes,this "carrot" to the IN is an attempt to also entice the IAF.However,more importantly is the decision of the British govt. to scale down the number of JSFs they plan to acquire and drop the STOVL version altogther! This is calamitous for the JSF programme.The only likely buyers then will be perhaps the Italians and Spanish who operate med. sized carriers.Their numbers too will be very small amounting to not more than 40-50 together.The UK plans to acquire ony a dozen or two for their sole QE carrier too.This leaves only the USMC wanting to replace their Harriers as the major buyer.This will escalate the cost dramatically,with UK estimates alone,gviing JSF delivery dates aroubd 2017 onwards as beign 125m pounds per piece!

Apart from the cost factor,the development is taking extra time and the aircraft suffers from extra weight.Even if these problems are sorted out according to revised schedules,the US was most reluctant to share any tech. secrets of the aircraft with the UK,astonishing treatment for its closest ally,who gave it the Harrier and Pegasus engine tech decades ago.Thus the UK was to get only a "second class" JSF which would come without key tech.In the case of an Indian buy,we wouldn't even get an RN version,but only a Turd class" one! Moreover,with the many additional controversial terms of acquisition,including inspections,etc.,it would in effect cripple the IN should the US want to switch of supply of spares,etc.,as we would be totally dependent upon it for after-sales support as no TOT would be possible with a samll buy for the IN.

What are the IN's options then? Until 2020 the IN will be operating two new carrier acquisitions,Gorshkov/Vik and IAC-1.For both these carriers we have decided upon the MIG-29K as the aircraft which will operate from them.48+ being acquired,along with the naval LCA when it matures,around 2015-2017,around the time that IAC-1 will be commissioned.The Viraat will hopefully also be available until the decade's end,when IAC-2 will replace it.This is supposed to be a larger carrier that can operate larger aircraft than the MIG-29K.

The IN has several options for aircraft for IAC-2 other than the JSF.One,a further development of the MIG-29K,beyond MIG-35 capabilities.After experiencing the aircratf aboard two varriers,the IN might feel that more improved versions of the saame would be very cost-effective,when used in conjunction with the LCA-N.Acquiring the JSF would add a third aircraft for the IN to operate,making it a tough and expensive logistic task.

The second is a new aircraft like the SU-33,a Flanker derivative of the upgraded MKI that the IAF plans to acquire.This would have far greater capability than a MIG-29/35 variant.It is also well proven aboard the Kuznetsov.Russia is refusing to sell the same to the PLAN as well.Being somewhat similar to the IAF's large numbers of Flankers ,these could even be built in India.

The third would be a further development of the naval LCA incorporating extra stealth features.However,both the JSF and LCA-N suffer from being single-engined.Any engine trouble experienced would see the loss of the aircraft.With the JSF at the price it will come in,it would be catastrophic.In the case of a naval version of the LCA,it would be far less costly,but also comes with a penalty in being of lesser capability.

The final option is to acquire a naval variant of the FGFA,the stealth aircraft for the IAF arriving by 2017-either CATOBAR/STOBAR or STOVL.This aircraft is slightly smaller than the SU-30/33 and would come in at far lower cost than the JSF as we are acquiring 250-300 for the IAF alone.Adding an estimated extra 60+ for the IN's future carriers (IAC-2/3) would bring down costs.

If the IN is keen only on a 5gh-gen aircraft,then it must also seriously consider a naval FGFA,which will be acquired by the IAF in large numbers,include key Indian inputs and be built at home,which will ensure that support for the same will not be a problem as it will inevitably be with the JSF.The aircraft also being twin-engined will have far better survivability problems at sea than the JSF.

[Pratyush]

Philip,

Fully agree with you on the subject of the N-FGFA.

[Lalmohan]

why are americans == arabs?
during some historical periods, arabs provided war horses to indian kings
however, the arabs would not provide any means of horse care or allow the passing of veterenary skills to indians
as a result, horses often wilted in indian conditions and few breeding programmes were established
consequently, few indian kingdoms could develop strong cavalry arms, which disadvantaged them in combat against more mobile horse borne invaders under some circumstances

wind the clock forward...
when should we look gift horses in the mouth?

[Pratyush]

when it is not free.