Indian Naval Discussion

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 06 Feb 2011 07:32

In some discussion earlier, question was raised about who could be considered as 'Holy Cow' of the armed forces.

Leaving the IA which is getting heavy beating now-a-days, I was thinking of the two, IAF and IN, which is more apt to receive the title 'Holy Cow'. In my opinion, it was IN. Of so many scandalous things happened, IN steered clear of those mess and protected its image. IN performed like a close knit unit and gave little space for bad press. Even in ex-adm Arun Prakash case, MoD/RM sided with the admiral and Navy. Even from war room leak case, it emerged unscathed. Not much we heard like Adarsh scam. But i guess, this episode may cost this title.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 06 Feb 2011 07:57

All that guy can be accused of is "cheating on his wife". If he did not in any way compromise his duties or his professional decisions (which seems to be the case), then his personal life should not matter that much.

Comparing this to Adarsh scam or Casket scam etc. is wrong as in this case the officer's actions did not cause any harm to India or our forces per se. It could even have happened that he refused to betray India which led to the images being leaked. It could also be the case that some of the other officers that were posted there could be in similar situation and he was simply made an example of to make the others comply....(just a conspiracy theory)

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 06 Feb 2011 07:58

IAC is not on the water while we see through Google Earth dtd. 29/01/2010 then how can Praveen take photo of it while on water

Original Date/Time = 2008:12:20 17:46:44

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 06 Feb 2011 08:41

kmc_chacko wrote:IAC is not on the water while we see through Google Earth dtd. 29/01/2010 then how can Praveen take photo of it while on water
Original Date/Time = 2008:12:20 17:46:44

can you provide the co-ordinates please...? thanks in advance

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 06 Feb 2011 09:13

Baldev, I agree that the full story should come out. And if the person has done more than "cheat on his wife" then he should have to answer for his actions. That would be irrespective of the involvement of others (who should also be put behind bars). But the plea that he should not be punished since others that were involved in the matter got away scot free does not hold. He knew what he was doing (if any wrong doing was committed by him) irrespective of the action of others. Try arguing that with a police officer here when about to get a ticket.

akimalik · Post by **akimalik** » 06 Feb 2011 09:29

prithvi wrote: can you provide the co-ordinates please...? thanks in advance

http://maps.google.co.in/maps?oe=utf-8& ... 05155&z=18

venku_Raj · Post by **venku_Raj** » 06 Feb 2011 11:38

Navy to procure nine amphibious aircraft

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Feb 2011 11:47

Is this the first sex scandal that has come to light in recent years?

I am sure that the MoD and the forces need to 'adapt' to the changing values that the society is undergoing.

The decision to sack the officer after due inquiry has been taken at the MOD level. So it might be called a political decision.

Note that the Navy conducted a CoI and forwarded the file to the MoD for necessary action.

It does leave a bad taste in the mouth that an officer had to lose his job and get a dishonorable discharge because of this. If the CoI has cleared that officer of wrongdoing and wrong towards the navy and the country, then this decision would appear harsh.

After all isn't it 'normal' naval tradition and tradition amongst sea-farers to visit women at posts of call to relieve their stresses? Why did the US naval ships dock off Chennai recently? There was one particularly colorful account that was posted here wasn't it?

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 06 Feb 2011 12:03

Vivek K wrote:Baldev, I agree that the full story should come out.

I doubt that will ever happen

Vivek K wrote:And if the person has done more than "cheat on his wife" then he should have to answer for his actions. That would be irrespective of the involvement of others (who should also be put behind bars). But the plea that he should not be punished since others that were involved in the matter got away scot free does not hold. He knew what he was doing (if any wrong doing was committed by him) irrespective of the action of others. Try arguing that with a police officer here when about to get a ticket.

He definitely have done much more. The very idea behind leaking his pics in compromising conditions is a PR tactics to make his sacking digestible for public. And must have been initiated after he would have been established guilty.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Feb 2011 12:04

Finally! Finally.....my voice, like a prophet crying in the wilderness of ignorance has been heard at last and acted upon! For about a decade+ I"ve been advocating the need for amphibs for the IN especially to monitor and safeguard our island territories and either someone heard my lamentations,it was telepathy,the dear Lord or someone in the corridors of power saw the need and has done the deed.Soner better than later ever remembering that the PLAN has already ordered 12 Beriev ASW/SAR amphibs!

kit · Post by **kit** » 06 Feb 2011 12:34

Gagan wrote:Is this the first sex scandal that has come to light in recent years?

I am sure that the MoD and the forces need to 'adapt' to the changing values that the society is undergoing.

The decision to sack the officer after due inquiry has been taken at the MOD level. So it might be called a political decision.

Note that the Navy conducted a CoI and forwarded the file to the MoD for necessary action.

It does leave a bad taste in the mouth that an officer had to lose his job and get a dishonorable discharge because of this. If the CoI has cleared that officer of wrongdoing and wrong towards the navy and the country, then this decision would appear harsh.

After all isn't it 'normal' naval tradition and tradition amongst sea-farers to visit women at posts of call to relieve their stresses? Why did the US naval ships dock off Chennai recently? There was one particularly colorful account that was posted here wasn't it?

It doesn't have to be a scandal.But the officer concerned has to prove that this 'liaison' did not affect his official duties in any way., and most probably MOD felt that it has and has ample proof in the affirmative.How exactly the public wont know , at least for some time .The word would be 'treason' but 'scandal' would be more appropriate judging the political sensitivities involved.Any way it was something the RM did not like one bit !! It is his way of making an example out of him.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Feb 2011 13:56

SNaik wrote:Is this the first P-28 in Vizag?

Sir,
That is NOT a P-28.
It looks like a Talwar class, but then again there are things in that view that are not typically talwar class. The size is a good 10 m smaller than a talwar class. It is more likely a Sukanya Class, but slightly modified than the standard pics. (Probably P-55 INS Sharada or P-56 INS Sujata)

The P-28 was launched from Garden Reach on 19th April 2010.
This image is dated 10th April, 2010 (a good 9 days before launch).

I don't know what type this is, looks like a Sukanya Class. They were built at Hindustan Shipyards.

This is the P-28:

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Feb 2011 14:15

behind the main gun seems like 2 units of VL arrays . perhaps they have put barak1 or Klub-ASW on Sukanya for experiments...

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Feb 2011 14:21

Yes that looks like a VLS there.
This is probably P-55 INS Sharada or P-56 INS Sujata. But again it doesn't look like a Sukanya Class.

This is NOT either of the two Dhanush missile carrying Sukanyas (INS Subhadra and INS Suvarna). They look 'different' than this one. And neither is this the Ex INS Sarayu (SLNS Sayura) in Sri Lankan Navy.

HSL has done minor design modifications on the exterior of these ships which makes them identifiable on satellite photos. NOT A GOOD THING AT ALL IMHO.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Feb 2011 14:29

does the mast atop the bridge look MFSTAR/APARish 4-faced thing? could be a designated test vehicle for Barak8 and later maitri-N to replace the Barak1s.

where the gun turret is had nothing on the original sukanya class.
where the original sukanya gun was (a semi automatic exposed type thing) is where the two VL units are now

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Feb 2011 15:00

Zee news

Home » Nation
India captures another pirate ship, 52 arrested
Updated on Sunday, February 06, 2011, 15:09

Mumbai: In the second major anti-piracy operation off Lakshadweep in 10 days, the Indian Navy and the Coast Guard Sunday apprehended 52 men including 28 suspected Somali pirates on board a ship after a brief gun-battle near the islands.

The forces foiled a pirate plan to attack a Greek-flagged merchant ship and apprehended Prantalay-11, the sister vessel of fishing trawler Prantalay-14 that was also being used as the mother ship by the sea brigands and was sunk by the Navy in the Arabian Sea earlier.

"Naval ship INS Tir and Coast Guard ship ICGS Samar intercepted the pirates' mother ship Prantalay-11 within Indian waters after a gun-battle and forced the brigands to surrender. A total of 52 men have been apprehended of which 28 are suspected to be Somali pirates," Navy spokesperson Captain M Nambiar said.

Officials said the operation had started last evening when the Navy learnt that MV Chios was being attacked by two pirate skiffs some 100 kms off the Kavaratti island.

After receiving the input, Navy's Western Command here directed the INS Tir and the ICGS Samar, who are already deployed in the region for anti-piracy operations, to rush to the site and apprehend the pirates and their mother ship, they said.

"After locating the skiffs, the two ships asked the pirates to surrender but they fired back at us and fled to their mother ship. After the two ships tracked the mother vessel, they were fired upon again by the pirates," they said.

"The Tir and the Samar returned fire briefly after which the pirates raised white flags to surrender," they said.

The pirates and the crew of the Prantalay 11 have now been brought to Mumbai for interrogation by police and intelligence agencies.

The agencies will also probe if the apprehended pirates have any links with Pakistan-based terror groups such as Lashkar-e-Taiba.

The pirate ship apprehended today is part of the Prantalay family of ships which are distinguished from one another by their suffix numbers. Several of these trawlers are known to have been hijacked by pirates off the coast of Somalia, between four and six months ago.

After the recent spurt in piracy incidents, Indian Navy and the Coast Guard have maintained increased presence in the Central Arabian Sea to nab Somali pirates who have started moving towards the country.

India has been deploying its frigates and destroyers in the Gulf of Aden as part of anti-piracy efforts since November 2008.

PTI

arun · Post by **arun** » 06 Feb 2011 15:16

venku_Raj wrote:Navy to procure nine amphibious aircraft

The RFI for the 9 Amphibious Aircraft sought by the Navy is available here.

Check out the annexure on page 4 for the required technical parameters. Preferred a twin/ multi turboprop with a minimum range of 800 nm, pressurised cabin, minimum service altitude of 15,000 ft, NVG capable cockpit, FLIR, SLAR, Search Radar, RWR and MAWS :

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION FOR PROCUREMENT OF NINE AMPHIBIAN AIRCRAFT

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Feb 2011 15:18

This is what it looks like:

Not a known IN ship type. Though it resembles a Sukanya Class. There is another sukanya class next door but that looks entirely different.

I've checked yehudi ships, and a few russian navy ships. No match yet.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Feb 2011 15:42

the Bangladesh navy has a single heavily armed Ulsan class named BNS Bangabandhu which kind of looks similar... atleast the front part

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 06 Feb 2011 16:14

Twin/ Multi engine, FADEC with state of the art technology, preferably turboprop.

From the RFI. Hmm.

There was time when the A-40 Mermaid was being looked at ( mid -nineties) . That was a time when the Navy seemed to want a Patrol bomber and high end ASW . the A-40, by the way has a substantial bomb bay for an amphibian as well as good performance. The Russkis also needed money to further develop the mermaid.

Then Beriev offered the Be-200 which is really a chhota bhai of the mermaid, but the Navy didn't seem to bite.

Now they are talking about a turboprop. slow and low ASW may be a consideration as well.

The A-40 and Myasischev M-17/55 were two niche aircraft that the russkis had offered for further development. with high flying UAVs and balloons now becoming increasingly available I wonder if the M-55 might find use again. ( last part is off topic).

Oh just one thing ... there also used to be talk of outfitting the mermaid with a propfan at some point.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Feb 2011 17:04

Found it.

This is a Formidable Class Frigate of the Singaporean Navy. Full stealth with an AESA radar and said to be the most modern ship in SE Asia.

The VLS cells carry 8 harpoons, and 32 ASTER 15/30 SAMs

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Feb 2011 17:28

^^ Looks like the same , Nice find Gagan

arun · Post by **arun** » 06 Feb 2011 18:29

arun wrote:
venku_Raj wrote:Navy to procure nine amphibious aircraft
The RFI for the 9 Amphibious Aircraft sought by the Navy is available here.

Check out the annexure on page 4 for the required technical parameters. Preferred a twin/ multi turboprop with a minimum range of 800 nm, pressurised cabin, minimum service altitude of 15,000 ft, NVG capable cockpit, FLIR, SLAR, Search Radar, RWR and MAWS :

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION FOR PROCUREMENT OF NINE AMPHIBIAN AIRCRAFT

A comparison of the amphibian’s on the market namely the Shinmaywa US2, Bombardier CL-415 and the Beriev Be 200

Amphibians Around The World

More on them here:

Shinmaywa US-2 : US-2

Bombardier 415 MP :CL-415

Beriev Be 200: Be 200

The webpage on the Dornier Seaplane aka Seastar is dead (permanently?).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Feb 2011 20:30

pretty meaty armament for such a small ship. something for our P28 and P17 to emulate soon as the Barak8 comes online methinks. get rid of the Shtil and put in Barak8.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 06 Feb 2011 21:07

Gagan wrote:Found it.

This is a Formidable Class Frigate of the Singaporean Navy. Full stealth with an AESA radar and said to be the most modern ship in SE Asia.

The VLS cells carry 8 harpoons, and 32 ASTER 15/30 SAMs

So the Google picture is of April 2010. SIMBEX-2010 was concluded on 15 April and Singapore navy was represented by Intrepid frigate

John · Post by **John** » 06 Feb 2011 21:08

Gagan wrote: This is a Formidable Class Frigate of the Singaporean Navy. Full stealth with an AESA radar and said to be the most modern ship in SE Asia.

Hoping the Delta class FFG is chosen as the basis for P-17A. Instead of exocet and Aster it can be fitted with 8 Brahmos, 32 Barak-8 and 32 Barak missiles.

Singha, I don't think we will ever replace Shtil since it would require replacement of Fregat radar as well.

srai · Post by **srai** » 07 Feb 2011 04:05

SNaik wrote:
Gagan wrote:Found it.

This is a Formidable Class Frigate of the Singaporean Navy. Full stealth with an AESA radar and said to be the most modern ship in SE Asia.

...
The VLS cells carry 8 harpoons, and 32 ASTER 15/30 SAMs
So the Google picture is of April 2010. SIMBEX-2010 was concluded on 15 April and Singapore navy was represented by Intrepid frigate

This site has very good 3D CGIs of the Singapore Navy RSS-68 Formidable Class.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 07 Feb 2011 06:57

John wrote: Hoping the Delta class FFG is chosen as the basis for P-17A. Instead of exocet and Aster it can be fitted with 8 Brahmos, 32 Barak-8 and 32 Barak missiles.

P17 is the basis for the P17A

Check out for more cool pics.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/04/ex ... ndias.html

John · Post by **John** » 07 Feb 2011 09:05

uddu wrote:
John wrote: Hoping the Delta class FFG is chosen as the basis for P-17A. Instead of exocet and Aster it can be fitted with 8 Brahmos, 32 Barak-8 and 32 Barak missiles.
P17 is the basis for the P17A

Check out for more cool pics.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/04/ex ... ndias.html

P17A will have nothing in common with P17 other than the name there is currently an tender for the design from various SY. IIRC the front runner is DCN.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 07 Feb 2011 10:18

John wrote: Hoping the Delta class FFG is chosen as the basis for P-17A. Instead of exocet and Aster it can be fitted with 8 Brahmos, 32 Barak-8 and 32 Barak missiles.

Delta class ?? Which one is that ?

John · Post by **John** » 07 Feb 2011 21:47

Cybaru wrote:
John wrote: Hoping the Delta class FFG is chosen as the basis for P-17A. Instead of exocet and Aster it can be fitted with 8 Brahmos, 32 Barak-8 and 32 Barak missiles.
Delta class ?? Which one is that ?

Delta class is the smaller la fayette frigate design that was used for Formidable.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Feb 2011 21:48

highly doubtful IN would go for something as small as that.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Feb 2011 22:25

france is building a lot of FREMM ships and italy some. would consider it the #1 front runner. the denmark nansen class ships are also right size. germany has a good design or two.

the UK's future Type26 ship has attracted brazilian interest from design phase. a bit too large and austere in my opinion.
http://fantasyfleet.blogspot.com/2010/1 ... -ship.html
http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/r ... -26_9b.jpg

80% imo its a FREMM-mki...with mfstar radar instead of heracles/empar and barak8
http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/i ... ept_lg.jpg

its 127mm/64cal cannon allegedly has a vulcano guided ammo out to 120km range...just the thing for pounding pirate coves when they least expect it
http://www.otomelara.it/EN/Common/image ... 7_64_b.jpg

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Feb 2011 22:31

http://defense-update.com/products/d/davide-vulcano.htm

Vulcano represents a new family of Long Range Ammunition for the 127mm naval guns. Its primary role will be in naval fire support for shore bombardments. Vulcano provides range enhancement by increasing muzzle velocity without using rocket assist, thus preserving barrel life. Vulcano will be compatible with 127/54, 127/64and 5"/54 naval guns and 155mm land based artillery. The Vulcano family will include unguided, extended range ammunition (70 km range), with multifunctional programmable proximity fuze, a precision attack, terminally guided version, with an infrared seeker for the engagement of surface naval targets at ranges beyond 70 kilometers, and an autonomous GPS/IMU guided ammunition capable of engaging land based surface targets at a range beyond 100 km, with a precision better than 20meters CEP. for long range, precision land attack missions.

John · Post by **John** » 07 Feb 2011 23:20

IMO Fremm is too big and expensive unlike European navies which seem to be doing away with their destroyers we still be procuring P-15s, so a smaller design like Delta would be cheaper since it would require a smaller complement (~90 for Formidable). Making it ideal for merchant escort or disaster relief operations.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 07 Feb 2011 23:37

one of the things that seem to standout in Shivalik is near zero plume from the stacks, even when the froth around the bow says it should be otherwise

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 08 Feb 2011 00:11

For Vulcano fans:

Recently B P Rao, chairman and managing director of BHEL said, “Talks are on for supplying certain type of equipment for the armed forces.” BHEL is working on supplying heavy duty 127-mm guns to the Navy. BHEL supplies 76-mm guns to Navy.

BHEL, along with Finnmechanica may supply as many as 30 heavy duty 127-mm naval guns. With each gun coasting around Rs 130-150 crore.

“We already supply 76-mm guns to the Navy and now the defence ministry wants us to make the 127-mm guns. So, we are the agency along with Navy to chose the right technology,” recently Rao said in a press conference. It is not just naval guns, but BHEL has big plans for other defence orders too.

bold part indicates that people are getting serious about PSC numbers.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ce/391694/

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 08 Feb 2011 06:06

John wrote:P17A will have nothing in common with P17 other than the name there is currently an tender for the design from various SY. IIRC the front runner is DCN.

lower part of ships remains same in which powerplant,residential area helicopter area and frontal area in which naval gun is housed .

but only the shaping of upper part in which combat and ship management system and sensors are located is shaped differently but even then its hard to hide a 5000 ton ship no matter what you do.

only different will be the sensors which will be israeli/european instead of russian but that launcher for shtil sucks which fires only after 12 secs everytime.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 08 Feb 2011 06:35

John wrote:P17A will have nothing in common with P17 other than the name there is currently an tender for the design from various SY. IIRC the front runner is DCN.

Are you sure? I don't like ittttttt.
From the India defence article via keypublishing.com
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?p=1572517

How does the design of Shivalik compare with other designs of her class? With the experience of Shivalik, what would be the direction for the design of the follow on class P-17A?

Shivalik design embodies many firsts in IN ships. The CODOG propulsion plant, the Ship Data network (AISDN), the new Total Atmosphere Control System (TACS) for the ship’s air-conditioning and ventilation, IMCS, APMS, the distributed PGD system using EDCs, the IVCS, etc., set her quite apart from earlier designs in terms of design concepts, automation and operational advantages. The ship compares very well with contemporary world designs in terms of capabilities packed into a class of ship of her size. The design and construction of Shivalik have produced a wealth of experience on which to further improve the P17A design. P17A will be more stealthy with covered mooring deck and flush deck mounted (VLM) weapon systems. The number of antennae on the ship will be reduced by use of a multifunction radar. The design will also explore better options for roll stabilization of the platform. In order to help cut down build periods and improve productivity, it is planned to go in for modular integrated construction for P17A. The design, project management and life cycle will be supported by a more comprehensive CAD/PLM.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 08 Feb 2011 06:41

John wrote:IMO Fremm is too big and expensive unlike European navies which seem to be doing away with their destroyers we still be procuring P-15s, so a smaller design like Delta would be cheaper since it would require a smaller complement (~90 for Formidable). Making it ideal for merchant escort or disaster relief operations.

That's where the P28 Kamorta class corvettes comes in. To be followed by the P28A.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamorta_class_corvette
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2009/08/ ... -anti.html