Indian Naval Discussion

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 27 Jul 2011 03:45

One of their recon. planes literally buzzed the INS Delhi on one of its initial shakedown runs. I wish they had shot it down

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 27 Jul 2011 06:24

Gents doesn anybody have any more info on this RAN orion buzzing the Delhi incident...have heard abt it on multiple occassion on BR but cant find any proper reference on uncle googal...chetak saan, aspuar ji, rohitvats ji, et all?????

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 27 Jul 2011 09:01

andy B wrote:Gents doesn anybody have any more info on this RAN orion buzzing the Delhi incident...have heard abt it on multiple occassion on BR but cant find any proper reference on uncle googal...chetak saan, aspuar ji, rohitvats ji, et all?????

andy, one of the links -

The RAAF's aircraft regularly find themselves much further afield and are believed to have collected information about Indian and Pakistani missile and nuclear bomb tests.

In 1997, India formally protested to Australia that an RAAF Orion flew low over the pride of its fleet, the new destroyer INS Delhi, south of India's Andaman Islands.

The Orion photographed the ship and dropped sonar buoys near it. These would have collected enough information about noises emitted by the destroyer to paint a comprehensive picture of its power plant and propulsion system. This "signature" would be stored to enable Australia and its allies to later identify the ship by its noise alone.

http://sievx.com/articles/psdp/20010408 ... olson.html

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Jul 2011 09:06

IN in turn collected the sono bouys for 'information'.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 27 Jul 2011 09:10

The collection of sonar signatre is a common practice in the international waters. As sonar signature is one of the most important ways of identifying ships covertly.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 27 Jul 2011 09:20

My apologies if this has been posted earlier.

But a few pages back, There was a lot of discussion on corvettes. I found the following site. Quite informative. The Gowind Class seems a deadly corvette to have.

The Stilleto being a next gen corvette.

Happy browsing.

http://www.naval-technology.com/project ... llery.html

Cheers

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jul 2011 09:58

IN bears have also been spotted near darwin...

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Jul 2011 10:03

Rahul M wrote:IN in turn collected the sono bouys for 'information'.

Many of the earlier collected ones may have well formed the basis for the indigenous production of sonobouys.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 27 Jul 2011 12:15

Nihat wrote:Philip Can you PLEASE try to write in Paragraphs sometime.

Also, if possible provide a link about Western Intl. which state that 80-100 new PLAN subs are on the anvil, I would really like to give it a read.

The Sino-Pak combine will have 80-100 at least and hostile Oz who always want to match India will have at least 12
Can you also clarify if by Oz you meant Australia, in which case I wonder when they were "hostile" to India and since when have they always wanted to match Indian Navy

At the best Oz is hostile only on a cricket field. And there too they have mellowed after getting whipped by almost all the team
K

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 27 Jul 2011 20:28

Ho gaya na?

Ab sarkar nay kah diya hai ki Shivalik mein torpedo hai.

It was always there, the torpedo launchers simply angle out aft. I don't why that whole 'OMG Shivaliks don't have torpedoes", had been started.

John · Post by **John** » 27 Jul 2011 20:47

"Curiously, there are no onboard torpedo launchers. Given the flexibility of the Klub system, it is entirely possible that 91RE2 ASW missile may be employed for anti-submarine operations. "

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Ship ... ct-17.html

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 27 Jul 2011 21:31

The ship based Klub ASW system (91RE1) releases an APR-3ME torpedo. 350 mm length 76 kg warhead.

I think "DTA-53-956" implies 533 mm torpedo tubes.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 Jul 2011 09:14

was this posted ?

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/07/ ... -20th.html

INS Satpura to be commissioned on 20th August 2011

INS Satpura: Second Shivalik class Indigenous Stealth Frigate. Conceived and designed by the Indian Naval Design team to be the mainstay frigates of Indian Navy for the first half of 21 century. The ship is scheduled to be commissioned on 20 Aug 2011 by the Raksha Mantri at Mumbai. Some leading particulars are as below:-

Guided-missile frigate
Displacement: 6200 tons that's almost as much as the delhi class !
Length: 142.5 metres (468 ft)
Beam: 16.9 metres (55 ft)
Propulsion: 2 x Pielstick 16 PA6 STC Diesel engines & 2 x GE LM2500+ boost turbines in CODOG configuration
Speed: 32 knots (59 km/h), 22 knots (41 km/h) (with Diesel Engines)
Complement: 257 (35 officers)

Sensors and processing systems:

1 x MR-760 Fregat M2EM 3-D radar
4 x MR-90 Orekh radar1 x EL/M 2238 STAR2 x EL/M 2221 STGR1 x BEL APARNAHUMSA (Hull Mounted Sonar Array)ATAS/Thales Sintra towed array systems
Electronic warfare and decoys: BEL Ajanta electronic warfare suite

Armament:

OTO Melara 76mm SRGM
2 x AK-630 30mm guns32 x Barak SAM9M317 (SA-N-12) SAM, total of 24 missiles8 x Klub cruise Missiles90R missiles (ASW)DTA-53-956 torpedoesKlub AS Missile2x RBU-6000 (RPK-8)Aircraft carried: 2 x HAL Dhruv or Sea King Mk.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jul 2011 09:18

the franco-italian horizon 'frigates' weigh in at a hefty 7500+ tons.

I wish the SAM could be upped from 24 to 48 though, by having another launcher in the back. that would make it effectively better than the Delhi class with more modern sensors.

the 76mm SRGM is said to be a superb weapon and french chose it for their own ships vs a french gun per wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otobreda_76_mm

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jul 2011 09:24

old report indicates from P17A and P15B we might up the game to the fearsome 127mm Oto gun - which has guided shells out to 100km

http://www.dnaindia.com/money/report_bh ... ly_1366309

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 Jul 2011 09:26

I do hope we get a decent naval gun for shore bombardment. would be ideal for fitting on platforms that would support marine ops.

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 28 Jul 2011 09:29

Singha wrote: I wish the SAM could be upped from 24 to 48 though, by having another launcher in the back. that would make it effectively better than the Delhi class with more modern sensors.

If we remove the SAM launcher and place VLS, maybe we should be able to pack in 36-48 SAMs. Maybe the 7 P-17A would do that and mid-life upgrade of Shivaliks would incorporate the change.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jul 2011 11:01

VL-shtil is said to exist and the chinese 054A FFG use it. they have ten of these ships in service. 32-cell vls on foredeck.

I think because of cost reason we prefer not to use it even in new ships like P17. or maybe we are just holding out on the AAW thing for the P15A/P17A ships armed with barak8 and MFSTAR.

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface ... ai_03large

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 28 Jul 2011 16:35

Singha
Don't forget the 32 x Barak on the P-17. The IN has great faith in the Barak+AK-630 combo. And with MR-SAM/LR-SAM under development, there was no justification in paying for VL Shtil. Also the current system is tried and tested in IN service.

John · Post by **John** » 28 Jul 2011 17:37

bmallick wrote:If we remove the SAM launcher and place VLS, maybe we should be able to pack in 36-48 SAMs. Maybe the 7 P-17A would do that and mid-life upgrade of Shivaliks would incorporate the change.

A 24 Cell VL-shtil launcher can be fitted in place of Shtil-1 (Barak-8 is unlikely).

But due to limitations of FCR there is not much advantage in number of targets you can engage with the VL-Shtil as opposed to an arm based Shtil-1. Plus keep in mind VL-Shtil uses cold launch mechanism if there is failed launch you will 700 kg missile smashing right back into the ship. So its not surprising IN stuck with Shtil-.

Rahul M wrote:Displacement: 6200 tons that's almost as much as the
delhi class !

Yes the displacement for P-17 has increased likely in part to changes in propulsion system and to handle two helos. No wonder its price tag was 700 million which is much more than Delhi class.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Jul 2011 03:57

Forgive the delayed reply.Kersi,I've posted several times links to reports/articles in the Chinese thread,Intl. navies thread about the "80+" new PLAN subs by 2020.I will give you exact details next time.Now,if you just calculate the number of subs being acquired in the Asia-Pacific region alone,you will find that even SoKo and Japan individually will possess equal o more subs than the IN.The Phillipines no want to acquire subs to meet Indo-China Sea tensions over the Spratlys.

Secondly,Oz has always been extremely jealous and rsentful of Indian military power.Their reaction to the P-2 tests,their "hostile" overflying of Indian warships (INS Dehlhi incident),inaction of attacks against Indian students,the demands by some in Oz to acquire N-subs originated only after the ATV was launched nd there is a strong lobby that wants N-subs even today despite Oz's inability to even man and support its Collin class conventional subs.The mainsphere o Oz' sub op appars to b for a role far beyon he mere efenin of the continet of Oz,but long range ops into the farthest regions of the IOR and Indo-China Sea in particular,even though there is no direct threat to Oz from China,or history of any.When you examine the mercenary tendencies and past history of the land of Oz,sending its military to fight in the Crimea,the two WWs,Vietnam,Iraq,etc,etc.,you will find that Oz has arrogated to itself the role of a globocop unlike India,whose defence acquisition are for fundamentally defensive purposes having suffered several rounds of agression fron oPak and China,who are now embarked upon a joint military,diplomatic and economic (counerfeiting Indian currcny) strategy againt India.Are the new sub ambitions of Oz more of a direct response to the IN's ATVs/SSBNs thn any perceived threat from China,?

In such circumstance,the IN cannot afford to lose sight that we will have several areas to monitor/sanitise in the next decade by our subs aaprt from protecting ou strategic deterrent.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Jul 2011 05:01

Singha wrote:old report indicates from P17A and P15B we might up the game to the fearsome 127mm Oto gun - which has guided shells out to 100km

http://www.dnaindia.com/money/report_bh ... ly_1366309

yup, aroor said the same. http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/04/pr ... ndian.html

it can fire the vulcano ammo, unguided version 70km range and guided version 100km range !

if the tech can be absorbed it will have huge impact on our army arty as well.
http://defense-update.com/products/d/davide-vulcano.htm

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 29 Jul 2011 06:08

^^^ Hmmm the above link by the Bongali Breaperi does mention that its got commonality with 155mm land based artillery...but the 100km range is just mind boggling and the shell's got frigging moving canards and mircorwave fuses and the lot

I have a feeling this is something that would come straight out of GD's mind

Philip I have had the chance to interact quite a few times with some raaf and ran types and while there has been jealousy in the recent past towards Indic mil capabilities they are well aware of the significant increases in Indian capabilites and they accept those capabilites due to not being able to match the Indian expansion.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Jul 2011 07:07

andy sahab, we won't mind reading a more detailed coverage of those interactions in the appropriate thread.

btw, I know LPD's or LPH's do not usually mount big guns but I hope we make an exception for our LPD class and fit the 127/64.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 29 Jul 2011 07:27

Will do so saar!

Agree with your comment about LPD/Hs sporting the 127/64s I reckon atleast a couple of turrets more like 4

although 4 maybe overkill.

The thing this given the extraordinary range that these things can be fired out with guided munitions they can be very effective for striking lighter targets thus not wasting costlier ASMs plus ofcourse off shore arty support too...

Btw that 64 cal means it will be a fairly longish projectile right?

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 29 Jul 2011 08:58

andy B wrote: Btw that 64 cal means it will be a fairly longish projectile right?

No Andy B. The 64 cal means that its a fairly longish gun. Not projectile. Cal provides a means for providing both length & diameter of the barrel. So 127/64 means that the barrel has a internal diameter of 127 mm and the barrel length = 127 x 64 = 8128 mm.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 29 Jul 2011 09:38

^^^ Thanks for rectifying I have read that before but got confused only.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 29 Jul 2011 09:38

^^^

WRT, the 5 inch gun discussion. I distictly remember one of the DPSU floating a tender valued at 3000 crs for 30 guns of this type about 6 to 8 months ago.

This could be a confirmation of the same.

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 29 Jul 2011 09:50

andy B wrote:^^^ Thanks for rectifying I have read that before but got confused only.

You are welcome Andy B.

All news item that I have been able to dig up is that BHEL already license produces the Oto 76 mm naval gun and Finmeccanica is promoting the similar agreement for the 127mm gun. Couldn't find any news that agreement has been done. However somehow I too distinctly remember reading that the agreement has been done and BHEL would provide 127mm guns for P15B, P17A class of vessels.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jul 2011 10:27

longer the barrel they can use more consumable charge and attain higher muzzle velocity for greater range I think. thats why naval guns tend to not less than 55cal these days while land howitzers are not more than 52cal usual. the Leopard2A5+ does have a L55 cannon.

http://machinist.in/index.php?option=co ... 2&Itemid=1

Finmeccanica scouts for industrial partnerships with Indian companies Print E-mail
Written by Arjun
Friday, 11 February 2011
Bangalore: Finmeccanica, an Italian group with companies in aerospace, defence, security, energy and transport, is looking at establishing new partnerships with government and private players to expand its base in India.

As a part of the growth strategy for the Indian market, Finmeccanica wants to adapt the approach of anticipating new programs and then seeking early involvement through transfer of technology and capabilities by creating strong synergies with the partners.

"Indian Ministry of defence’s current agenda to expand the defence industrial base, encourage indigenous defence production and reduce defence imports is commendable as that will ensure India faster approaching towards indigenisation. India is a key country for us, we seek preferred partnership and we want to expand our presence by showing our technologies with the capabilities of local partners," said Giorgio Zappa, COO, Finmeccanica.

Finmeccanica has been present in India for over 40 years operating in the Indian region.

In the last four decades Finmeccanica has developed long term relationships with Indian partners and participated in many pioneering projects, including supplying radar and communications systems, military and civil helicopters, civil aircrafts and naval systems.

Finmeccanica currently has significant partnerships with key public companies such as Bharat Electronic Limited (BEL), Bharat Heavy Electrical Limited (BHEL), Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) as well as with private companies such as Tata Sons and HCL. It continues to strengthen existing partnerships by value additions and constant upgradation and establishing new partnerships thereby contributing to increasing self reliance of the defence industry. Finmeccanica is also looking forward to joint development projects with DRDO and other R&D labs.

Oto Melara, a company of the Finmeccanica group, involved in the design and production of small and medium calibre naval guns, and BHEL are producing a 76 mm naval gun. The Indian Navy has appointed Bhel as the production agency the 127 mm large calibre gun.

Ansaldo STS India, a company of the Finmeccanica group, employs close to 280 people in India and provides signalling and control technology for the railways.

Finmeccanica also has an important collaboration with BDL for torpedo counter-measure technology.

Last year the company received orders exceeding $ 700 million from India. This includes an order for 12 VVIP helicopters.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jul 2011 10:30

we do not follow that website, but looking at the other news items there, http://machinist.in/ seems to be a good source of info for the brick-n-mortar steel fist side of the indian economy.

Will · Post by **Will** » 29 Jul 2011 12:33

Oto Melara, a company of the Finmeccanica group, involved in the design and production of small and medium calibre naval guns, and BHEL are producing a 76 mm naval gun. The Indian Navy has appointed Bhel as the production agency the 127 mm large calibre gun.

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The only part of that gun that BHEL will be developing will be the packaging

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Jul 2011 12:40

We should start thinking beyond a conventional gun and start research into an electric rail-gun firing kinetic projectiles which can be fitted onto larger N-powered destroyers/cruisers.Their range in hundreds of km and kinetic power would be virtually unstoppable.For the moment we also need a 155mm main gun too for gunfire support for amphib ops on larger surface warships.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 29 Jul 2011 13:07

incidentally 30 sets of the 127 mm will be built. giving you an indication of the number of large vessels we are gonna bring in the next 15-20 years.

http://profit.ndtv.com/news/show/bhel-h ... ctor-26568

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Jul 2011 13:10

Finally,at the 11th hour...!

http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/mo ... 22742.html

Moraes appointed Assistant Chief of Naval Staff

New Delhi: Seeking to enhance its fleet of nuclear and conventional submarines through several multi-billion dollar deals, the Navy has appointed an officer to look after the acquisition and planning of its underwater vessels.

"Rear Admiral M T Moraes will take over as the Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Submarines) at the Naval headquarters here tomorrow," the Navy said in a release.

The appointment assumes significance as the post was not being filled for the last many years and comes at a time when the Navy is planning to induct Russian Akula Class nuclear submarines, indigenously-built Arihant Class nuclear submarines and is looking to procure six Project-75I conventional submarines in the near future.

ACNS (SM) looks after perspective planning and acquisition of submarines for the Indian Navy, the release said.

The Navy is looking forward to strengthening its under-water capabilities in view of the increasing capabilities of Pakistani Navy and the presence of Chinese vessels in the Bay of Bengal and the Indian Ocean.

The cost of the acquisition for the six P-75I submarines is expected to be more than Rs 50,000 crore.

In the recent times, the Pakistani Navy has inducted three of its Agosta 90B class submarines from Pakistan.

India currently operates a fleet of Russian-origin Kilo Class and German-origin HDW submarines and is mulling over inducting the first of its six Scorpene submarine in 2015.

Under its 30 year plan, the Navy is looking to induct 24 conventional submarines along with more than three nuclear submarines of the Arihant Class.

PTI

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=73548

Rear Admiral MT Moraes Appointed Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Submarines) : will Oversee Submarine Acquisitions

Three key appointments of the Indian Navy will see new incumbents on 29 July 2011. Rear Admiral MT Moraes will take over as the Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Submarines) at Delhi. On promotion, Rear Admiral Srikant will take over as Flag Officer Submarines (FOSM) based at Visakhapatnam and Rear Admiral G Ashok Kumar will take over as Flag Officer Sea Training (FOST) at Kochi.

ACNS (SM) looks after perspective planning and acquisition of submarines for the Indian Navy. A role that assumes critical importance as the Indian Navy is pursuing vital submarine acquistion plans.

FOSM is the class authority on submarines and is responsible for defining standards, policies and procedures for operations and maintenance of submarines in the Indian Navy.

FOST is the authority responsible for operational sea training and work up of all surface ships.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 29 Jul 2011 15:25

Will wrote:Oto Melara, a company of the Finmeccanica group, involved in the design and production of small and medium calibre naval guns, and BHEL are producing a 76 mm naval gun. The Indian Navy has appointed Bhel as the production agency the 127 mm large calibre gun.

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The only part of that gun that BHEL will be developing will be the packaging

Agreed. Sort of a BHELpuri

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Jul 2011 17:00

Will wrote: The only part of that gun that BHEL will be developing will be the packaging

and so ? you do reailze that the gun is 'already' developed and that there is no need for us to 'develop' every damn thing on the planet ? virtually every country in the world bar russia and china use a oto melara naval gun. it's enough if we get a license production agreement and are able to absorb the tech.

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 29 Jul 2011 17:58

Also it just doesn't make sense from economic point of view to design a naval gun, of which we need only 30. If we want to design a gun, invest in making an artillery gun for the army, where the real numbers are. Once that tech is mastered, its just a matter of intent to make a naval one.

Anuj A · Post by **Anuj A** » 30 Jul 2011 01:08

Anuj A wrote:
Vishal Jolapara wrote:Some more Photos of IN Sea Kings & Chetak onboard INS Jalashwa @ Malta

From looking at these pics (^^^) Is it just me or are radars mounted on the noses recent editions (they look new as well)? As I believe I have seen previous pics of IN UH-3s (note referring to Augsta Westland Sea Kings inservice with IN for a while but the UH-3 bought from US with INS Jalashwa) without these additions. Possibly a ramification of Sikorsky recently agreeing to service all IN SeaKings after scathing CAG report on their serviciblity. And Sikprsky making a bid to IN for modern helos.

+ added later:

Look at this pic of Jalashwa with its entire air wing on display:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Imag ... shwa05.jpg

None of the helos have this radar dome AKAIK.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 30 Jul 2011 02:33

Rahul M wrote:
Will wrote: The only part of that gun that BHEL will be developing will be the packaging
and so ? you do reailze that the gun is 'already' developed and that there is no need for us to 'develop' every damn thing on the planet ? virtually every country in the world bar russia and china use a oto melara naval gun. it's enough if we get a license production agreement and are able to absorb the tech.

Agreed. It makes no sense to 'develop' for a 30 unit order. Question is are they 'producing' or assembling?. For a 30 unit order it may not even make sense to manufacture. So I guess what BHEL would be doing is final assembly and servicing. Wish the reporting was more accurate.