Indian Naval Discussion

sourab_c · Post by **sourab_c** » 19 Aug 2011 16:51

nits wrote:
I meant Helis and other Naval ships... Carrier is surely out of question for them...

Without after sales support and spares, those systems will be obsolete in no time. Now, if you want to buy them in order to copy them, that is a whole different issue. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Chinese "businessmen" line up to buy that crap for "museum displays."

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Aug 2011 16:54

the english carriers with their old power plants and systems will have pretty low uptime (like Hermes) vs a newer machine like dokdo/osumi/juan carlos...

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 20 Aug 2011 02:05

MDL bats for Bigger Scorpene Submarines

MDL bats for Bigger Scorpene Submarines
S. Anandan
Kochi, August 20, 2011

Building a similar kind would leverage the technology, says official

Unfazed by mounting criticism over time and cost overruns in building six Scorpene submarines for the Navy under the beleaguered Project 75, Defence shipyard Mazagaon Dock Limited (MDL) would rather have the Navy go in for bigger Scorpenes under the proposed Project 75-I.

“The decision [to choose the type of submarine] is left to the powers-that-be in Delhi, based on their requirements and needs. I cannot really comment on that. But as a shipbuilder, I think we would be tremendously leveraging our skills and expertise attained over a period of four to five years [of building the Scorpenes] if we carry on with a similar kind of submarine. It will certainly make us happy,” Vice-Admiral (retd.) H.S. Malhi, Chairman and Managing Director of MDL told The Hindu at a recent interaction in Mumbai.

“The money shelled out for transfer of technology [ToT] for the Scorpenes currently under construction would be well worth it if you have similar submarines, the Scorpene Plus. Then you are leveraging the technology over many more submarines,” Mr. Malhi added.

With depleting submarine force levels staring it in the face, the Navy had, last year, sought information on bigger conventional submarines with improved attack and stealth features, besides endurance. A request for proposal (RFP) in this regard is awaited. While two of the P75-I submarines thus contracted would be built at the collaborators' yard, the remaining four would be split between two Indian shipyards.

Mr. Malhi said there was no official communication on the MDL being handpicked by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) to build three of these. He, however, maintained that the yard “should be the natural choice, having made six [Scorpenes].” (Reportedly, another PSU, Hindustan Shipyard Limited (HSL), Visakhapatnam, would get to build one).

It was to MDL's credit, Mr. Malhi said, that it reconfigured all German equipment and stations set up for the construction of HDW submarines in the 1980s and early 1990s to suit the French Scorpenes. So, if the Navy chose a submarine type other than Scorpene, the yard would have to reconfigure the stations all over again as different submarine types used different grades of steel and welding technology. This would also engender teething issues such as difficulty in absorbing technology.

“Since material and technology for different submarine types are different, the skill sets required to build them are varied, too. In terms of pressure hull fabrication, MDL is rated very high and our collaborators sometimes say, not entirely in jest, that they wouldn't mind sourcing pressure hull for the submarines they are going to manufacture for Brazil from us,” said Mr. Malhi.

On the Scorpenes under construction, he said, procurement of material posed a problem in the initial stages. “As we started procuring, we realised the sanctioned amount for material won't be enough to buy the entire lot. So we approached the government with revised figures and got the go-ahead in turn.”

The revised timeline envisages commissioning of the first Scorpene in 2015 following which a submarine would be delivered every nine months. “September 2018 is when the last boat would be due for delivery. The first may take a longer time than originally planned, but when the entire project is completed, the delay would be no more than nine months,” he said.

“The structural and regular outfitting [laying of pipe and cabling] of the first Scorpene has begun and the second is soon to follow suit. Now we are absolutely on track to meet the new contractual provisions. The teething issues are way behind us. Supply of material and armament is steady and the steel comes from France, but ironically, DCNS, the company originally manufacturing Scorpenes, buys it from ArcelorMittal.”

To fastrack Scorpene construction, the yard is setting up a new workshop and a launching platform in the adjoining Alcock Yard. “From the fourth submarine onwards, construction will concurrently take place in two yards. Which means you will have two lines of construction, which will be fully operation when P75-I commences.”

Asked about the reported breach in the East Yard in July that led to submergence of components in the submarine dry dock, the CMD said the flooding would have ‘zero impact' on the course of construction. “We are making a wet basin jutting out into the sea. The basin is also connected to the dry dock of the East Yard. When it was dried up for construction, it was checked for leaks. There was a fissure and water came into the dry dock. We have now filled up the fissure and water is being pumped out. There has been zero impact of this on the Scorpene project,” he said, adding this would have no cost or time implication.

To a query, Mr. Malhi said the termination of collaboration between Spanish Navantia and French DCNS — the developers of Scorpene — had not affected the yard. “We have people from Spain here as part of the ToT agreement carrying out their contractual obligation.”

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 20 Aug 2011 06:47

Indian navy pumps up eastern muscle

:
The enhanced attention being paid to the eastern command is prompted in part by apprehensions over China's looming naval presence in the Bay of Bengal and the Indian Ocean. But it is part of India's two decades-long effort to focus its diplomatic, economic and military energies eastward as part of its "Look East" policy. Besides, the navy's new eastward orientation is also aimed at enabling India to emerge a significant player in the emerging Asia-Pacific security architecture.

The Indian Navy is the world's fifth largest. It has three commands - the western, southern and eastern commands. The eastern command, which is headquartered at Visakhapatnam in Andhra Pradesh, is home to the Indian Navy's submarine arm. A tri-services command was set up in 2001 at Port Blair in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands.

The eastern naval command has grown remarkably in recent years. In 2005, it had 30 warships under its command. Six years later, that number has grown to 50 - roughly a third of the Indian Navy's entire fleet strength. It is poised to expand further.
:

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 20 Aug 2011 09:48

Kolkata class destroyers - Broadsword

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 20 Aug 2011 10:17

Great to see three ships in one picture, the third one is on the far right(if someone missed it)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Aug 2011 10:40

The Ark is being retd. early.There's a lot of life left in her and the Harriers and helos too.Ne warships of her size would cost us a packet.She is available at a steal and is in far better shape than either the Gorshkov,or the Varyag,needing absolutely no modifications.From her history,the Ark was used for amphib/support ops too and if we acquire her ,it will be a smooth transition.The beauty of acquiring her is that we could always have one of two "Harrier carriers" available,while one is in the dockyard for routine maintenance.When the Kargil War erupted,the Viraat was unavailable to us.Once the IAC-1,new Vikrant arrives,the Ark can be used for amphib ops as a priority.The Viraat will in any case not last longer than 2020 and the Ark,which has about 20+ years of life left in her can fill her role/place.

It is v, intersting that the USMC are now wanting to acquire the conventional JSF aircraft,since the STOVL version's development will take a longer time.They still use hundreds of US built Harriers and have no intention of dumping them! The Russians too are developing a new naval version of one of their new attack helos (KA-52?) which wills ee service aboard the new Russian built French dsigned Mistrals.

Acquiring the Ark would give us an immediate boost to our naval blue-water capability as she has seen service in all theatres and supported ground ops in Iraq and Afghanistan too using her Harriers which perfomed very well.The greatest danger to the IN in the medium/long term is that of the PLAN's subs,not her carrier/s.The huge number of modern subs that China possesses and will in the future will pose a huge challenge to the IN ,because the PN sub fleet is also getting a huge boost from China with 6 new AIP Yuan class subs which will carry LR cruise missiles aaprt from other weaponry.The Ark will be extremely useful as an ASW platform for the fleet,with the ability to carry upto 12+ ASW helos,like 15t AW-101 Merlins and if need be a small detahcment of Harriers for air defence.The USN is now returning to ASW as a priority in view of the large PLAN challenge in the Asia-Pacific region.

Hwever,it requites some out of the box thinking on the part of the conservative MOD and the CNS should examine the opportunity and "seize the day",otherwise the carrier might very well end up in China! Remember that China bought almost every single old carrier that was pensioned off heading for the breaking yard including the Melbourne,the sister ship of the Vikrant,so that they could study the ship for their future carrier plans. The Ark would be a superb design for them for smaller amphib flat tops just like the smaller Dodko and an excellent complement to their larger Varyag class carriers which they reportedly are planning to build.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 20 Aug 2011 11:56

http://www.samachar.com/India-commissio ... fbbdg.html

India commissions second indigenous stealth frigate

Mumbai, Aug 20 (IANS) The Indian Navy enhanced its sea warfare capabilities by commissioning the second indigenously-built multi-role stealth warship - INS Satpura - with an array of weaponry in its arsenal Saturday.

The state of the art frigate - 142.5 metres long and displacement of 6,200 tonnes - was commissioned by Naval Chief Admiral Nirmal Verma.

The stealth frigate was to be inaugurated by Defence Minister A.K. Antony but he cancelled his trip to Mumbai at the last minute.

The commissioning was marked by hoisting of the naval flag on the ship by Verma and a naval band playing the national anthem.

sum · Post by **sum** » 20 Aug 2011 13:40

“The money shelled out for transfer of technology [ToT] for the Scorpenes currently under construction would be well worth it if you have similar submarines, the Scorpene Plus. Then you are leveraging the technology over many more submarines,” Mr. Malhi added.

Makes sense since honestly, the 2nd line sub is going nowhere since sometime now and if the current GoI tendering process is to be taken as a benchmark, will go nowhere for sometime to come..

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 20 Aug 2011 14:35

Second Indian Navy Stealth Frigate 'INS Satpura' joins fleet

kit · Post by **kit** » 20 Aug 2011 15:11

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/08/ ... ifies.html

looks like the IN can sure use it !

Multatuli · Post by **Multatuli** » 20 Aug 2011 15:16

Manish Sharma wrote:

Nothing but brand new will do for our forces from now. Hopefully gorky and trenton will be the last 2nd hand ships we get.

That is the kind of thinking that will build a new India. I don't understand this obsession some people have to buy any and all junked British ship.

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 20 Aug 2011 15:27

Yay! Every day of commissioning is a day of celebration. Wish they came more often every year!

kit · Post by **kit** » 20 Aug 2011 15:51

its the apples vs oranges story ., if you want to project power you need carriers not submarines, the british carrier would be a worthwhile addition. The chinese would be damn sure to have a go for all the goodies on display !

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 20 Aug 2011 18:54

The state of conditions where the Kolkata class destroyers are berthed shows why all projects taken by MDL are under delay.

All the surrounding areas have to maintained clean. It needs lots of improvemement.

Cheers.

nithish · Post by **nithish** » 20 Aug 2011 18:57

Enhanced coordination among maritime agencies post-26/11: Navy

There has been an enhanced coordination among maritime agencies to step up coastal security after the 26/11 terror attacks, Navy Chief Admiral Nirmal Verma said today.

"The number of agencies utilised in maritime domain is very large. Earlier, there was no adequate coordination with them. It was virtually non-existent," he said, adding after the sea-borne attacks in the metropolis in November 2008, the coordination has improved.

The Navy chief was talking to reporters in Mumbai after commissioning Shivalik class stealth frigate 'INS Satpura'.

Asked if he favoured the idea of the Navy having operational control of all maritime agencies to ensure better coastal security, the Admiral said, "I think it would be too huge a task to execute with my own manpower. That is the reason I think that very wisely, the tasking has been given to different agencies who actually deal with the subject."

The responsibilities have been assigned after a great deal of thought, he maintained. "That is the reason why the Navy had been pursuing the proposal for a National Maritime Commission. When that did not happen, we were looking forward to the appointment of a maritime security advisor. Unfortunately, this also did not happen."

Admiral Verma chief cited these factors as "the reason each one of us was operating in isolation. That could be one of the many factors which led to 26/11."

"Today, fishermen are giving information (on suspicious movements in sea). This information is very accurate in the sense that trawlers and boats always carry GPS with them. When you get such inputs you are able to deploy the forces that Navy and Coast Guard have got."

Technical measures like smart cards for fishermen are progressing well. The coastal belt is well covered by mobile telecom operators and there are toll-free numbers in operation virtually along the entire coast, the Navy chief said.

"With transponders and identification aids to be installed on our fishing craft, there would be an element of identification."

"We have been hearing about the fishermen being the eyes and ears of the (coastal) security network. I have said that this is a very important aspect of the coastal security matrix," Admiral Verma maintained.

The Navy and Coast Guard have put in a tremendous amount of effort to carry out the coastal security awareness campaign, he said. "The objective being that over a period, you visit each coastal village and every possible landing site and make fishermen aware of the situation that prevails at sea."

On piracy incidents, the Navy chief said the menace was initially contained within 500 to 700 miles off Somalia coast. "They (pirates) later ventured into areas that came 200 to 300 miles off the Lakshdweep islands."

On China's exploration of a 10,000 sq km polymetallic sulphide ore deposit in an international seabed area in the Indian Ocean region, he said, "Firstly, for whatever reasons, we did not stake claim (to the area), otherwise we could have been owners of that site. There are complex issues involved here because you have to prove that you have the technology to carry out (seabed) mining."

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Aug 2011 19:01

^^ Elta 2248 + RAWL + OTO 127 mm gun clearly visible. The fit is way superior to what the Chinese have.

John · Post by **John** » 20 Aug 2011 19:16

Nice to see the radar mounted on the mast rather than superstructure (like 052C or aegis ddgs' ) should improve radar range against low flying targets.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Aug 2011 20:31

looking at the kolkatta class ships, I feel if we had added around 7m to the foredeck, could have cheaply accomodated another 32 SAMs in the same design for more shakinah SAM loadout.

even its kept empty, helps to deal with future needs and long construction period in our ships during which threat levels tend to escalate.

John · Post by **John** » 21 Aug 2011 02:00

Don't think you can stretch that design any more adding 7 more meters will make it even bigger the Sovremenny, as it stands i won't be surprised when it is fitted P-15A tops the scale at 7000+ tons.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 21 Aug 2011 05:51

'Need an electronic screen along coast'
Hindustan Times

A national committee on coastal security, chaired by a cabinet secretary, conducts regular review meetings to ensure the proposed schemes are on course. “While a slew of measures have been taken to improve coastal security, some of them have not moved at the desired pace,” said Admiral Verma.

It requires tremendous effort to bring the large number of state agencies, and also the 18 lakh-strong fishing community into the integrated coastal security system, Admiral Verma added. The Navy chief said that the country proposes to have an electronic screen along its coastline. A massive plan has been drawn out to reinforce lighthouses across coastal states with radars, and electro-optical equipment, which will not only spot a vessel but would also provide visuals to the command center.

“We will equip the Gujarat coast with state-of-the-art systems by the year end. We will then implement the same in other states,” said Admiral Verma.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Aug 2011 07:23

big or small than sovremeniy doesnt really matter - it must be future proof. our jetties can handle the length.

if we could build ships as fast as korea or japan, this would not be an issue ofcourse, as changing threat perceptions could be quickly addressed with new-build ships.

I am not sure what was the design philopsophy of the Spruance class ASW ships but @8000t they were truly obese for a ASW ship that normally 3000t FFG do? some of them had only 8-cell sea sparrow and 8-cell asroc launcher but later replaced with a 61-cell asroc/tomahawk launcher !! US seems to build ships of wide beam which means the length needs to be good for high top speed, leading to a elegant battleship type long tapering section ahead of the main gun. our ships front end looks more tightly packed and stubbier.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 21 Aug 2011 08:19

Singha wrote:looking at the kolkatta class ships, I feel if we had added around 7m to the foredeck, could have cheaply accomodated another 32 SAMs in the same design for more shakinah SAM loadout.

even its kept empty, helps to deal with future needs and long construction period in our ships during which threat levels tend to escalate.

It'll be an overkill. Greater number of ships can provide wider areas of sanitized seas and airspace above them, unless we get missiles of longer range. 32 SAMs are enough to saturate one circle in the sea, for another circle we need another ship.

Also, its already a 6000+ ton boat. What will we classify as destroyers then?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Aug 2011 08:27

it will have another 32cell barak2 in the back or just 32 barak2 in total? if its 64 then its fine, else 32 is even less than the 48 shtils of P15 and clearly inadequate given the ships size and importance.

btw Maz's drawing is now fully outdated.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/P15b.jpg

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Aug 2011 08:59

Stealth warship INS Satpura joins navy

nash · Post by **nash** » 21 Aug 2011 10:52

The Satpura carries 24 Russian Klub missiles, which can hit ground targets more than two hundred kilometres away with pinpoint precision. The Indian Navy would have liked the Satpura to carry the more capable and lethal Brahmos missile, but that is too heavy for the frigate.

24 cruise missile is that right or a typo ....

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 21 Aug 2011 16:23

nash wrote:
The Satpura carries 24 Russian Klub missiles, which can hit ground targets more than two hundred kilometres away with pinpoint precision. The Indian Navy would have liked the Satpura to carry the more capable and lethal Brahmos missile, but that is too heavy for the frigate.
24 cruise missile is that right or a typo ....

It's a typo.

That's a great picture from MDL, just two observations - It looks that Kochi has something different instead of RAWL (Revati?), don't like the looks of the ELTA radar housing, looks more like a temporary shack (like white canvas stretched over some base structure, part of that structure sticking out), compare to pictures of APAR on Dutch and German frigates.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Aug 2011 21:30

> don't like the looks of the ELTA radar housing, looks more like a temporary shack (like white canvas stretched over some base structure

the underlying metal structure is covered by white canvas because they would be holes right now, with no radar fitted. maybe a few IFF/ESM/VHF type antennas would be mounted high up just below these 4 faced radar to take advantage of height, but otherwise why do you think it would look any different than APAR?

the verandah on the middle ship around the radar is likely a temporary thing for workers as the right ship lacks it.

if you look at de zeven pronvincien, two prongs are sticking out sideways from base of apar area.
http://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/pic/img5113.jpg

maz · Post by **maz** » 21 Aug 2011 22:06

SATPURA commissioning pictures by our Kapil C.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/56159120@N ... 360351295/

Enjoy!

maz · Post by **maz** » 21 Aug 2011 22:16

TSarkar, nice to see you here. One point of correction: if I am not mistaken, the P-15A are not getting the 127mm OTO. What we see on these ships are the same gun mounts as Satpura - stealth Oto 76mm SRGM. A bit underarmed for such a large DDG. Of course, I could be wrong and once the covers come off, they may turn out to be 127mm mounts.

John · Post by **John** » 21 Aug 2011 23:30

Hmm looking at the mount it doesn't resemble Oto 76mm, could be an optical illusion will know soon enough.

wig · Post by **wig** » 23 Aug 2011 09:30

a write up in the tribune on the submarine delivery schedules of Scorpene submarines

Faced with a reality of an ageing fleet of submarines, India has set a tight schedule for the state-owned shipyard Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL) for the delivery of six diesel-electric Scorpene submarines to the Indian Navy. MDL has been asked to deliver one submarine every six months starting August 2015. All the six have to be commissioned by September 2018.

All the six submersible machines are in various stages of construction and each one is hidden behind a covered building yard in Mumbai that is heavily guarded from snooping eyes. This is the first time in decades that India is building the potent submarines on its soil. French Naval engineering company DCNS is the foreign partner.

Originally, the first Scorpene was to be delivered in December 2012 and the other five submarines were to follow at one-year intervals till December 2017. The submarines are being built at $4 billion (approx Rs 18,000 crore).

Chairman-cum-Managing Director of the MDL Vice-Admiral HS Malhi (retd), informing a team of reporters from Delhi on the progress of the important programme, said “The fabrication of the pressure hull is moving before schedule and in line with the decision of the Cabinet Committee on Security. The first submarine will be delivered in August 2015.”

By next year, the fabrication of all six submarines will be done and the MDL will get ready to build the next lot of submarines, under the project codenamed ‘75-India’ at a projected cost of $11 billion (approx Rs 49,500 crore).

Global majors have responded to India’s bid in partnering the project. These include Russia’s Rosoboronexport, French DCNS, German HDW and Spanish Navantia.

The development of the Scorpene is critical for the Navy. At present, the Navy operates 14 diesel-electric submarines after it decommissioned two Foxtrot-class submarines last year. Of the 14 submarines, 10 are Kilo class Soviet-origin vessels and the rest are HDW German-origin vessels. Till the Scorpene comes up, the Navy has re-jigged its maintenance schedule for the existing lot.

India intends to have a 30-vessel submarine force for the Navy that should be in place by 2030. This will include three nuclear-powered submarines, the first of that lot, the INS Arihant, is already launched at sea and is being outfitted.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110823/main6.htm

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Aug 2011 10:31

New ships to boost Navy's blue-water ambitions

Even though the Indian Navy is increasingly involved with coastal security, a shipyard in southern Mumbai bears testimony to Navy's blue water ambitions, which has not been bogged down by its brown-water responsibilities.

As many as 14 ships and submarines are at various stages of construction at the Mazgaon dock here, which will be delivered to the navy before the decade ends. Contracts for three more submarines may also come to Mazgaon shipyard, which is now modernising its facilities so that the warships and submarines can be delivered on time.
Since 26/11, the navy has been brought into the coastal security network in a major way to ensure a repeat does not happen.

Some holes were plugged in the last three years but there are still many that requires the navy’s continuous intervention in the next couple of years. Overseas deployment signifying Indian Navy’s strength is one of the casualties.

This year the western deployment has been cancelled because the western naval command could not spare warships required for coastal security and anti-piracy missions.
Arrival of a string of new battleships may change the equation in the Indian Ocean.
While the first two indigenous stealth frigates, the INS Shivalik and Satpura, had been delivered to the navy, the third one INS Sahaydri will be commissioned in 2012.
Next comes a bunch of destroyers in the lines of INS Delhi. The first of the three destroyers under Project 15-A (INS Kochi) will be ready by the first half of the next year whereas the steel-cutting for the construction of four more similar ships (Project 15-B) will start around September-October, said an official of the Mazgaon Dock Ltd.
Work on six Scorpene submarines is in full swing, too. All submarines (Project 75) will be delivered between August 2015 and September 2018.

“The fabrication of the pressure hull of all the six submarines will be completed by 2012-end. The facility then could be used for three more submarines in the follow on order (Project 75-I). By early 2013 we will be ready for the future submarine project,” MDL chairman and managing director H S Malhi said here.

Under the Project 75-I that received initial approval from the defence ministry, the Centre plans to build submarines in three different shipyards including the MDL that plans to finish its modernisation by December 2011.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 24 Aug 2011 00:02

was exploring youtube for some defense related videos n came across this blast from the past post operation cactus...
can anyone identify the naval officer? damn smart chap...

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 24 Aug 2011 01:16

Faced with a reality of an ageing fleet of submarines, India has set a tight schedule for the state-owned shipyard Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL) for the delivery of six diesel-electric Scorpene submarines to the Indian Navy. MDL has been asked to deliver one submarine every six months starting August 2015. All the six have to be commissioned by September 2018.

Best thing to do now will be to go for 6+3 Scorpenes,the deal was 6+6 at same price,use this option and go for another 3,which should be separate to p75i,this way we wont lose the expertise in sub building at the same time we can have more scorpenes at the same price.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 24 Aug 2011 02:16

Have they considered this for coastal security needs?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYFEFekPzDM

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 24 Aug 2011 03:35

not really, that gentleman is really patient

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 24 Aug 2011 07:44

Indian Ocean rivals are better served with cooperation: Teresita Schaffer

There is an article on maritime cooperation in Indian Ocean in the recent issue of Naval War College Review.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Aug 2011 14:44

Here is Ajay Shukl's take on the crisis in our indigenous sub fleet.

http://business-standard.com/india/news ... et/446636/

Ajai Shukla: Building a submarine fleet
The Indian Navy makes do with 14 old-style, diesel-electric submarines, of which just seven or eight are operational at any time

He talks of the "Anthony style" of forming a commitee to look into another committee's findings ad nauseum! I remmeber Adm.Bhagwat's plan of the IN building /acquiring 24 subs way back when he was CNS.Two decades on,we are nowhere near even pak's ability to build conventional AIP subs!

While AS recommends just two lines of sub construction,we actually require three.Two to build conventional subs and one to build N-subs.The N-sub production is straightforward.We require SSBMs and SSGNs. Until we have adequate numbers of SSBNs-we should build a min. of 3 first,local production of SSGNs should wait till the strategic detrrent SSBNs are completed,At least one more Akula-2 should be acquired from Russia,preferably two,so that one will always be at sea.

The conventional sub lines are more complicated.We need both western and Russian tech and accompanying AIP modules and weaponry.The jury is still out as to which AIP system is better,MESMA-which pak already has or the fuel-cell system.Here we are supposed to be workign on our own design,but the Germans have the best available so far.While we've been upgrading our German U-209 boats,acquiring another 4 U-214s eventually replacing the 209s,would be an excellent way in which we could stay abreast of German U-boat tech.German U-boats are the most prolific designs being built across the world,with several nations in Asia building/acquiring them like SoKo,Indonesia,Israel too.The fuel-cell tech could be also fitted to another Indo-Russian line of AIP subs that will carry Brahmos-which cannot be fitted to western subs and which is fast becoming the key common missile system for the three services.As AS says,the Scorpene line can be extended to another 2-3 with the bulk of them fitted with MESMA.Having the advantage of operating both MESMA and the German fuel-cell systems,we can then decide which is best for the Indo-Russian AIP subs.

8 Scorpenes,8 upgraded and new U-boats,8+ upgraded Kilos and new Brahmos subs to progressivley replace them will give us a total of 24+ conventional/AIP subs.With another 10-12 N-subs (SSBNs and SSGNs) and a dozen midget subs,will be a goodly number and variety to meet the challenge from China's 80-100 subs,Pak's 12-16,Oz's 12+,plus the 60+ subs possessed by Asian nations (Japan and SoKo alone will have 20+ each,apart from SPore,Malaysia,Vietnam,Indonesia and other new aspirants) not to mention S.Africa,Iran,etc.,and the US and western N-sub units stationed at Diego Garcia and other bases in the Asia-Pacific region.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 24 Aug 2011 20:47

narayana wrote:
Faced with a reality of an ageing fleet of submarines, India has set a tight schedule for the state-owned shipyard Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL) for the delivery of six diesel-electric Scorpene submarines to the Indian Navy. MDL has been asked to deliver one submarine every six months starting August 2015. All the six have to be commissioned by September 2018.
Best thing to do now will be to go for 6+3 Scorpenes,the deal was 6+6 at same price,use this option and go for another 3,which should be separate to p75i,this way we wont lose the expertise in sub building at the same time we can have more scorpenes at the same price.

Why not buy 3 submarines outright and make 6 - 12 at home ?
K