Indian Naval Discussion

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 03 Aug 2011 00:55

This does not looks like a professional Navy!! The whole Paki Navy, Air Force and Army is sort of rag-tag mujahideen.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 03 Aug 2011 03:37

This incident is so provocative!! You can make out that the Babur had made up its mind to brush the Godavari. I bet our disciplined and professional sailors were just amused at PN's childishness (including the senior officers on the boat , who can be heard on the radio speaking in Punjabi).

Bet you one thing, in case of war, that Babur is not leaving its port, let alone coming in close to an IN ship. Also bet, there is a Brahmos stowed away somewhere in one of IN's ships with "bye-bye-babur" painted on it.

vijyeta · Post by **vijyeta** » 03 Aug 2011 03:44

Abuses hurled in Punjabi(apparently a reaction to a waving Indian sailor @2:30) and someone shouting "Ram it from the side..."
If this is how their Naval staff behaves, imagine the average bashinda from NWFP......

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 03 Aug 2011 04:48

The IN Navy Chief indicated on NDTV that helicopter nets on INS Godavari was damaged in the incident

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/p ... ief/203400

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 03 Aug 2011 06:53

And we didn't fire a warning shot over their bow to tell them to keep a km or two distance ? Damn, we need new protocol in place. Everything should be treated as hostile.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 03 Aug 2011 06:54

^^^^ Exactly..

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Aug 2011 07:30

Authorities to probe how m.v. Pavit escaped radar

Authorities will look into how m.v. Pavit, the unmanned, adrift vessel found grounded off the city's Juhu-Versova beach, evaded the radars of all the three agencies taking care of coastal security — the Navy, the Coast Guard and the marine police.

“We will see in our inquiry why in the 100 hours the ship was in Indian waters, the detection did not happen. The agencies concerned will have to look into it,” Satish Agnihotri, Director-General, Shipping, said at a press conference here on Tuesday.

Mr. Agnihotri said that though the DG Shipping was informed in the beginning of July that Indian crew members were rescued from the ship in the Oman Gulf, the western media and the UKMTO (UK Maritime Trade Operations) later reported that the ship had sunk. “Thus we were not very alert about it. We don't monitor the movement of ships in the Oman Gulf. We monitor it only in the Indian waters,” he said.

Ghost ship sinks India's coastal defence claim

The Navy, responsible for security beyond 12 nautical miles, the Coast Guard, which patrols the zone between 5 and 12 nautical miles, and the newly created maritime police, all failed to detect it.

In its report for 2010-2011, the Ministry of Home Affairs records that 183 interceptor boats had been provided to the States of Gujarat, Maharashtra, Goa, Karnataka and Kerala, and the Union Territories of Lakshadweep and Daman and Diu since April 2009. These States and Union Territories, the report says, have also benefitted from Rs. 4 billion spent on 73 coastal police stations, 97 checkpoints and 58 barracks, as well as an annual grant of Rs. 1.51 billion for their operation. In addition, the Ministry of Home Affairs gave Rs. 627.75 million to the Ministry of Defence for 15 additional coast guard patrol ships with specialised capabilities.

Sources in the State government said Maharashtra had so far received 40 patrol boats and was waiting for the delivery of 17 more. The sources, however, said the boats were not in use because of the monsoon. Police sources said the boats, delivered to an accelerated timetable, also suffered from chronic mechanical failures, and trained crew were in short supply.

Sources in the police and the Coast Guard said the boats would be of limited use until India's fishing boats were fitted with specialised transponders, which would allow unidentified and potentially hostile vessels to be intercepted with precision.

Highly placed defence sources, however, said the trial of the three systems —satellite-based tracking, Very High Frequency and Automatic Identification System — were just beginning, and would take over a year to complete.

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 03 Aug 2011 08:29

vijyeta wrote:Abuses hurled in Punjabi(apparently a reaction to a waving Indian sailor @2:30) and someone shouting "Ram it from the side..."
If this is how their Naval staff behaves, imagine the average bashinda from NWFP......

The unprofessional behavior displayed amply demonstrate the overall mindset of the PN and the Pakistani society being still stuck in middle ages. Such stupid actions, which could have resulted in a bigger mishap, costing many lives on both side, are being passed on as acts of bravado. With the level of mental faculty the general sailors have, its no wonder the officers have to resort to such stupid acts to ensure the morale is high. BTW have the IN sailors on board the ship rescued by PN, returned to desh?

Are our vessels on the high seas armed with missiles & torpedos. If carrying them is not possible, at least the vessels having helicopter facilities, should carry Air Launched Anti Ship Missiles. Imagine after this work is carried out by PNS babur, we let it go and disappear beyond the horizon, let it move maybe 50 km away. As the PN sailors are still rejoicing on their win over IN, IN quietly launches the helicopter, which promptly dispatches a couple of missiles and sinks those happy ones.

One question, isn't an IN vessel in International Sea's Indian territory. So if the PN vessel brushed us, isn't it akin to their army/airforce crossing our border, whereby, our shooting them down being a legitimate right.

On a serious note, the IN officers & Sailors definitely demonstrated their professional approach to work. Also I guess with the current internal turmoil in pakistan, it is looking towards provocative actions like these to start war against us.

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Aug 2011 08:42

Bet you one thing, in case of war, that Babur is not leaving its port, let alone coming in close to an IN ship. Also bet, there is a Brahmos stowed away somewhere in one of IN's ships with "bye-bye-babur" painted on it.

The Babur has definitely signed its death warrant in case of any hostilities since the IN will not forget this display of Pakistaniyat.

The more i see the Pakis ( uniformed or otherwise), the more i am amazed about their stone age mentality.

And then we have posters here doing a == between these barbarians with our officers and jawans( esp when related to handling of nukes etc)

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 03 Aug 2011 08:48

If someone is ramming you, how do you know they won't come around and attack you? It seem the INS Godavari is a faster ship and it should have come around and fired torpedoes and sunk the P(e)N(i)S Babur. Most paki sailors can't swim and they would have drowned in the sea.

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 03 Aug 2011 08:52

These idiots (aka what can be loosely called the Puki Navy) should have received the Atlantique treatment. Guess their @sses are still chapped from seeing that flaming wreck burning up in Sir Creek. On the whole though, the video is a metaphorical analysis on where India and Pukistan are headed. One can see the Godavari racing away towards a bright future, while the turd that is Pukistan is shouting as it hits the sewer pipe. Surely though, the Indian Navy has some policy in place to fire a warning shot and then dispatch the idiots to their virgins.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 03 Aug 2011 09:06

To me it looked as if Godavri did a turn right infront of the TSP ship. Like in race, you come infront of another to prevent him from going straight and force him off.

But what are the rules of engagement if a hostile rams you in the sea?

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Aug 2011 09:10

^^ Interesting to see how a IN ship will react the next time a TSPN vessel tries this ( am sure that the captain of Godavari would have been taken by surprise this time to react in time) ?

Hope that the next TSPN vessel tries this stunt against the Viraat..

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 03 Aug 2011 09:19

Protocols need to be in place and they need to be in public so the enemy knows what he is dealing with. Childish behavior is put to rest when you know the consequences of action. The actions of PN navy could have been disastrous for them, were this the US Navy. They would have fired a long time ago. This ain't no sunday float down the river boat. IN should have atleast fired off a few rounds of 76 mm canon on their super structure. Sinking them would have been not worth the media news, but a few shells would have taught them a lesson on international sailing.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 03 Aug 2011 09:23

‘Indigenous aircraft carrier launch this Dec’

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Aug 2011 09:40

SKrishna wrote:LiveFist Tweets ...

In #Parliament: India's First indigenous aircraft carrier to be launched this December. 75% of hull work complete at Kochi.
Hurrah!!!

Great news.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 03 Aug 2011 09:55

"Expected". I really doubt it will be ready before end of 2012

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Aug 2011 10:09

Nice video of Babur , shows who was trying to play tricks and break rules.

The Godavari is a faster ship then Babur as it managed to outrun PN ship when it tried to get too close.

One interesting point is IN ships had their radar shutoff almost nothing was working there , perhaps a SOP to maintain opsec ?

The Godavari captain deserves credit for keeping his cool and handling things professionally inspite of provocation by PN bandars ....

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 03 Aug 2011 10:16

it is just launching right.. for induction it will take 3-4 years

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Aug 2011 10:37

The IAC will enter service arround the same tile as the Vik. The commissioning date for the Vik also is arround 2014. That is unless their is no problem with the internal paint job just like the rusi sub IN is expected to take possession of.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Aug 2011 11:13

I am comforted by the navy video. this band of armed sea bandits (rather than professional sailors) will fall apart under the slightest bit of combat pressure ... just the look and feel tells me so. great for beating up and threatening hapless mariners in sundry dhows and tramp steamers off the makran coast, but just watch if a real fight starts and missiles/torpedoes come out of tubes......I see visions of people running around shouting AoA and officers abandoning ship in the only serviceable liferaft at earliest opportunity.

hopefully their submariners are equally this jihadi.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Aug 2011 11:24

^^^

At least the Air wing is with fried onions of Mahran and all that.

Just one question, When a PN sub is getting in torpedo range of an IN ship. Will they shout AOA before firing the torpedo?

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 03 Aug 2011 11:27

Sorry If I missed earlier, But has there been any reporting on 'actual reasons' why the Russian Navy suddenly cancelled its game plan with IN last month?

Thanks

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 03 Aug 2011 12:26

Interesting part in RMs statement is that the govt envisions two carrier task forces deployed at two separate locations at the same time. To make this possible, we definitely need more than two carriers making IAC2 a certainty now. Hope it comes with 65K tonnage. Any higher would be a bonus

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Aug 2011 13:36

^^^

The authorisation for the IAC 2 has to be given now, if the long lead time items are to be sourced and the ship is to enter service by 2018/19. As the IAC 1 is scheduled to be launched by Dec. The keel for the IAC 2 can be launched earliest by Feb/ Mar 2012. If the approval and funding is provided for today.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Aug 2011 13:40

being a bigger design, it will need atleast a year of work to finalize. other than France-UK CVF and Kuznetsov, there are no other existing carriers in that size category of 65,000t. Fincantieri who consulted for the cavour will have to work for a design 2X size or we will need to rope in DCN for this.

the other issue will be steam catapult or EMALS...either way we are at khan's mercy there.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Aug 2011 16:50

articles from livefist.blogspot.com

Indian Parliament today was provided with details of substantial time and cost overruns in three of India's key warship building efforts: the Project 15A (Kolkata-class guided missile destroyers), Project 17 (Shivalik-class stealth frigates) and Project 28 (Kamorta-class ASW corvettes). These details have been put out for the first time. Here's what Parliament was told, in full:

The major indigenous warship building projects of the Navy running behind schedule are Project-15A, Project-17 and Project-28. The cost escalation in these projects has been about 225% for Project-15A, about 260% for Project-17 and about 157% for Project-28. The major cost escalation has been due to uncertainties associated with the complex warship building process. Project-wise reasons for cost escalations are as follows:

P-15A: The main reasons contributing towards cost escalations are: delay in supply of warship building quality steel by Russia, escalation due to increase in expenditure towards services of Russian specialists on account of inflation during the build period, impact of wage revision due from October 2003 and finalization of cost of weapons and sensors.

P-17: The main reasons contributing towards cost escalations are: delay in supply of warship building quality steel by Russia, delay in acquisition of weapon equipment from Russia, and delay in finalization of propulsion equipment in view of complex combined diesel and gas arrangement introduced for the first time in Indian Navy frigate. In case of Project-17, Air Conditioning system procured from M/s York Marine Systems, UK has been functioning satisfactorily on the first two ships. In case of Project-28, it was tendered on competitive basis and the order was placed on M/s York India.

P-28: Navy was using D40S/B-quality high tensile strength steel for construction of warships; however, due to high cost of import, indigenously developed DMR 249A steel was decided to be used on P-28 ships. However, there was delay in development of indigenous steel and associated complexities related to development of new weld consumables and welding techniques. The delay in identification of suitable propulsion package to meet stealth requirement of ships and delay in development of indigenous weapons and sensors also resulted in cost escalation.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Aug 2011 16:56

http://web.alkar.net/vbv/plate%20steel.htm

D40S is a russian maritime standard for steel ships, among some others.

the DMR249A probably stands for defence metallurgical research. bokaro steel plant lists it
http://www.sail.co.in/pnu.php?tag=bokaro_product

DMR 249A Grade Steel Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) for fabrication of Submarine parts (import substitution)

--
iirc even the IAC-1 had faced a delay due to Russia not being able to provide 10,000t of steel for the hull..in the end it was supplied by SAIL. makes me think even if it costs some extra, we better build up local capacity to produce these steels on demand, while dual tasking that facility to produce commercial steel when its idle.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Aug 2011 17:37

Seems like with Naval Ship building program its a worst case of bad project management and cost over runs with 157 to 260 % rise in cost of ships , it would simply mean with the same money we end up getting fewer ships and with delayed schedules.

They should have indigenised the steel needed for ship building with priority over any other program , considering a large number of ships will use the same quality steel and import option from Russia is expensive and time consuming.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Aug 2011 19:04

if we did not have the local capacity perhaps other options like tata-corus or south korea or spain or japan could have been explored. there is nothing special in the russian warship steel it just has to meet some spec that other navies likely follow too.

in any case we need to solve this problem once and for all - both for ship steel and submarine steel - there are 30+ vessels in the pipeline and we cannot afford such delays.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 03 Aug 2011 20:00

Austin wrote:Seems like with Naval Ship building program its a worst case of bad project management and cost over runs with 157 to 260 % rise in cost of ships , it would simply mean with the same money we end up getting fewer ships and with delayed schedules.

They should have indigenised the steel needed for ship building with priority over any other program , considering a large number of ships will use the same quality steel and import option from Russia is expensive and time consuming.

So we import the ships and close down MDL, GSL, GRSE etc ???

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 03 Aug 2011 20:06

Singha wrote:if we did not have the local capacity perhaps other options like tata-corus or south korea or spain or japan could have been explored. there is nothing special in the russian warship steel it just has to meet some spec that other navies likely follow too.

in any case we need to solve this problem once and for all - both for ship steel and submarine steel - there are 30+ vessels in the pipeline and we cannot afford such delays.

Tata Corus is supplying steel for RN's new aircraft carriers.

Kersi

PS Is it the same Britishers who said that someone (a hot shot in British Railways) who said that he will eat every pound of steel that India (i.e. Tata Steel) can make of British Railway Specification ????

John · Post by **John** » 03 Aug 2011 20:44

Singha wrote:The major indigenous warship building projects of the Navy running behind schedule are Project-15A, Project-17 and Project-28. The cost escalation in these projects has been about 225% for Project-15A, about 260% for Project-17 and about 157% for Project-28. The major cost escalation has been due to uncertainties associated with the complex warship building process. Project-wise reasons for cost escalations are as follows:

MOD should learn not to count chickens before they hatch, looking back at this quote and chest thumping we were spending less than those silly Aussies' is quite ironic. Of course it is going to be less when your allocated cost is awlays 200% less than final figure. That said $$$ for P-15A will be on par with Hobart class DDG and the rate MDL is going they will have us beat too.

The Project 15-A is about 90 percent indigenous by cost. And the design itself is 100 per cent Indian. The three Project 15-A Kolkata-class destroyers will each cost the navy Rs 3,800 crore (US $950 million), including the cost of long-term spare parts. Three 6,250-ton destroyers, fitted with the Aegis radar and fire control system, will set Australia back by Rs 32,000 crore (US $8 billion). At about Rs 11,000 crore per destroyer, that is almost three times the cost India is paying for its Kolkata-class destroyers.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Aug 2011 22:19

Kersi D wrote:So we import the ships and close down MDL, GSL, GRSE etc ???

No , Involve private players and provide them equal opportunity , stream line the management process and fire people who cant deliver at PSU SY , diversify supply source if there is problem and have a system of reward and penalty for PSU yards.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 04 Aug 2011 04:09

Russia delivers 11 MiG jets to India: official

MOSCOW — Russia has dispatched 11 MiG fighter jets to India to equip the aircraft carrier it will deliver next year, head of the MiG corporation Sergei Korotkov said Wednesday.

"We have already delivered 11. Five more will be delivered by the end of the year," he told reporters as quoted by the Interfax news agency.

Russia signed a contract in 2004 to supply 16 MiG-29K/KUB jets as part of its agreement to modernise the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov for the Indian Navy.

The refurbishment contract was initially valued at 974 million dollars and stipulated the delivery of the carrier in 2008.

But the price of modernising the ship, which will have the name Vikramaditya (All-Powerful) in the Indian Navy, later grew to $1.5 billion while deadlines extended by several years.

In March 2010, the countries inked an additional $1.5 billion deal for 29 more MiG fighter jets.

Russia has started work on the order, and the first jet was presented to an Indian representative in the assembly workshop, Korotkov said Wednesday.

Delivery of the second batch of jets as well as the carrier will start in 2012, according to the contract.

Russia has been a longtime military supplier to India and still provides about 70 percent of its military equipment, although India has looked to other countries like Israel and the United States as potential suppliers.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 Aug 2011 08:17

IN seeks report on ghost ship

Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Nirmal Verma on Wednesday sought a report from the Western Command on the drifting of the Panama-flagged 1000-tonne, m.v. Pavit, which ran aground on the Juhu beach in Mumbai.

Admiral Verma's action came even as the Ministry of Defence asked the Navy to keep it updated on the incident reported by The Hindu in which it was mentioned that the country's coastal defence stood exposed as this 1,000-tonne vessel drifted into the Indian shores undetected.

Sources in the Navy said the naval authorities in Mumbai would trace the sequence of events leading to the vessel drifting some 800 to 900 nautical miles after its owner abandoned it off the coast of Oman on June 29 and two weeks later it was reported to have sunk.

The path of the vessel would have to be reconstructed on the basis of winds and tide charts especially since the ship drifted through the Indian maritime territory for more than 100 hours before being detected on Sunday.

The incident assumes importance as the Navy, which is tasked with the overall responsibility of coastal security after 26/11, has been maintaining continuous vigil and carrying out both coastal patrol and aerial surveillance in the area, along with the Coast Guard.

The question, which the report would have to answer, is how the vessel escape detection by the radar. The sources sought to reason that as the vessel was reported to have sunk, it could have been off the ‘watch-out' radar.

As for the Automatic Identification System transponders on boats, the sources said the matter was being pursued by the Director-General of Light Houses.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Aug 2011 09:37

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 317195.ece

could be trial balloons to test our responses. imagine if with a strong incoming tide, the crew of a tramp steamer loaded with explosives outbound from ormara to indonesia with a cargo of officially sand 'runs into trouble and abandons ship' , and it drifts into the middle of mumbai harbour and explodes...we could have a modern version of the halifax dock explosion here.

goa already has got its sinquerim beach (next to fort aguada) spoiled by a ship thats been aground for years. I have been there, its a total eyesore...not sure why the
GOI doesnt send a FFG to demolish it with a few torpedoes and salvage go to drag the debris away.
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/unc ... 45721.html

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 04 Aug 2011 11:35

Regarding the Godavari - Babur incident, i think IN did what was the only course of action open to it. The PN ship was carrying rescued hostages and any attack on it would have been a PR disaster. IN did the smart thing and deserve plaudits.

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 04 Aug 2011 11:52

Singha wrote:http://web.alkar.net/vbv/plate%20steel.htm

--
iirc even the IAC-1 had faced a delay due to Russia not being able to provide 10,000t of steel for the hull..in the end it was supplied by SAIL. makes me think even if it costs some extra, we better build up local capacity to produce these steels on demand, while dual tasking that facility to produce commercial steel when its idle.

Indian private sector is involved now, with Essar Steel becoming the first private steel maker to win an order from MDL. This was discussed on the forum too when it was announced two months ago.

The company has a wide-plate mill which was first audited by Directorate of Naval Architecture, Defence Metallurgical Research Lab and Director General of Quality Assurance, MoD.
The mill can produce plates with a thickness ranging from 5 to 150 mm, width of 900 to 4900 mm and length of 3 to 25 m.
The financial value of the order of 13,000 tonnes was not disclosed.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 04 Aug 2011 19:45

Good to hear