Indian Naval Discussion

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Singha
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 01 Oct 2010 08:38

400 a.c ..... today IN has barely 100.... hopefully some mighty Tejas-N airwings under a IJN style combined carrier strike force shall maraud the IOR from
SA to australia.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kit » 01 Oct 2010 08:45

Singha wrote:400 a.c ..... today IN has barely 100.... hopefully some mighty Tejas-N airwings under a IJN style combined carrier strike force shall maraud the IOR from
SA to australia.


IN Airforce will be bigger than almost all the airforces in South Asia .. And coast guard numbers are projected to be bigger than RN

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vic » 01 Oct 2010 09:31

I think that even these second hand mine sweepers will cost something like US$ 200 million each

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby D Roy » 01 Oct 2010 11:40

Indonesia has suddenly decided to order some 180 Flankers. And I don't think all of them are meant for some Chicom threat. Indian and Australian planning will certainly be affected by this development.

We must remember that as part of SEATO Indonesia had overtly helped the Pukis during 1965.

According to the Indian Navy,
The total number of aircraft are 190. The details of
various aircraft in the IN inventory are as follows:-
(a) Fixed Wings - 71
(b) Helicopters - 119




Possible breakup of IN numbers by 2022:

1. 45 + Mig 29K
2. 12 + P-8I MMA ( contract had 8 more as options half of which we seem to have exercised)
3. 40 Naval Tejas
4. 60 Seaking replacement MRH
5. 6+ MRMR
6.50 + LOH
7. 15 + Dornier replacements i.e NAL Saras
8. 17 + hawks
5. 5 + IL 38 SD
6. 11 new build Dornier 228s
7. 47 + ALH replacing Chetaks
8. 30 + Helixes

That's about 350+ manned aircraft.

We also have UAV flights both fixed wing as well as rotary ( NRUAV etc)
We also have talk about another fighter in addition to the Mig 29K and Tejas. Will be interesting to see anything further on this based on Indonesia's love for the flanker.
Last edited by D Roy on 01 Oct 2010 11:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby D Roy » 01 Oct 2010 11:47

Given our plans for the Indian Ocean the rise of an Indian Naval Air Arm on the lines of the Soviet AVMF is inevitable.

I expect to see many more MPA, dedicated ASW, and navalized AEW rotary as well as fixed.

and whichever way you look at it, a dedicated naval strike AC also has to be woven in. Something that is not too 'sluggish' while carrying a bad ass supersonic/hypersonic anti-shipping capability

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SriSri » 01 Oct 2010 15:22

IN to get the K-152 Nerpa submarine from Russia

Russia to transfer K-152 Nerpa Submarine to India on Ten Year lease in March 2011

While K-152 Nerpa was undergoing sea trials in the Sea of Japan on 8 November 2008, an accident caused the deaths of some twenty sailors and injury to twenty-one others.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sum » 01 Oct 2010 15:42

Mrach 2011?? I thought a earlier article mentioned it had already sailed for India last month and would be inducted in october...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SriSri » 01 Oct 2010 15:46

sum wrote:Mrach 2011?? I thought a earlier article mentioned it had already sailed for India last month and would be inducted in october...

The only place I saw that was on an opinion posted on atimes.com...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 01 Oct 2010 15:50

the tine line keeps on sliping by 6 months at a time

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 02 Oct 2010 13:35

US Senate Clears Transfer of Two Osprey-class Minehunters to India
..:: India Strategic ::..
US Senate Clears Transfer of Two Osprey-class Minehunters to India
By Arun Kumar

(IANS)
Published: October 2010

Washington. The US Senate has cleared the transfer of two Osprey-class minehunters to India on a Grant Basis :?: to boost Indian Navy's efforts to ramp up coastal security in the wake of the November 2008 Mumbai terror attacks.

The Senate approved the transfer Sep 27 of the Osprey class minehunter coastal ships Kingfisher (MHC-56) and Cormorant (MHC-57), decommissioned in 2007, under the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961.

Touted as the world's second largest minehunters, surpassed only by the British Royal Navy's 60-metre Hunt class minehunters, the 56.5 metre Osprey class vessels are designed to find, classify, and destroy moored and bottom naval mines from vital waterways.

Constructed entirely of fibre-glass and designed to survive the shock of underwater explosions, they use sonar and video systems, cable cutters and a mine detonating device that can be released and detonated by remote control.

The Indian Navy, which presently Deploys Czech-Made Pondicherry and Mahe-class minesweepers, is highly deficient in this class of warships. It has been on the lookout for such highly mobile coastal warships and minehunters and minesweepers since the 26/11 attacks.

The ships are equipped with a high definition, variable-depth sonar and a remotely-operated, robotic submarine used to neutralise mines.

The Osprey Class ships are the World's Largest Glass-Reinforced Plastic (GRP) Ships and are the First US Navy Ships Designed Solely for Minehunting.

The platform has been designed with exceptionally low magnetic and acoustic signatures to protect against mine detonations during minehunting operations.

The computer-aided detection techniques include marking of mine-like sonar contacts with track buckets for further detailed search. Classification of targets is carried out using higher frequency narrow beam acoustics to provide high-resolution echo and shadow imagery.

Twelve minehunter ships were built for the US Navy by Northrop Grumman Ship Systems (formerly Litton Avondale Industries) of New Orleans and Intermarine of Savannah. The ships were commissioned between 1993 and 1999 and decommissioned from the US Navy between 2006 and 2007.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shukla » 02 Oct 2010 17:03

"a company called 'M Ship, based mere blocks away from the San Diego harbour, is a small, but very innovative naval architecture and technology firm that recently conceived of and developed the M80 Stiletto, an experimental Navy craft with a patented M-shaped hull," he said.

The 'M hull' is designed to limit wake and ensure a calm ride, even at high rates of speed, often critical for sensitive military missions.

"M Ship has reached out to begin 'preliminary work' with a Hyderabad-based company to find new building materials. M Ship's CEO Bill Burns notes could enable further US-India collaboration in M Ship's building and design endeavours," Blake said.


http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 669983.cms

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Nihat » 02 Oct 2010 17:58

the last date for RFI for the second line of subs must have expired on 30th sep. Or has the deadline been extended.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vic » 02 Oct 2010 18:05

D Roy wrote:Indonesia has suddenly decided to order some 180 Flankers. And I don't think all of them are meant for some Chicom threat. Indian and Australian planning will certainly be affected by this development.

We must remember that as part of SEATO Indonesia had overtly helped the Pukis during 1965.

According to the Indian Navy,
The total number of aircraft are 190. The details of
various aircraft in the IN inventory are as follows:-
(a) Fixed Wings - 71
(b) Helicopters - 119




Possible breakup of IN numbers by 2022:

1. 45 + Mig 29K (losses 10?)
2. 12 + P-8I MMA ( contract had 8 more as options half of which we seem to have exercised)
3. 40 Naval Tejas
4. 60 Seaking replacement MRH
5. 6+ MRMR
6.50 + LOH
7. 15 + Dornier replacements i.e NAL Saras
8. 17 + hawks
5. 5 + IL 38 SD (I think that T-142s will still be around)
6. 11 new build Dornier 228s
7. 47 + ALH replacing Chetaks
8. 30 + Helixes

That's about 350+ manned aircraft.

We also have UAV flights both fixed wing as well as rotary ( NRUAV etc)
We also have talk about another fighter in addition to the Mig 29K and Tejas. Will be interesting to see anything further on this based on Indonesia's love for the flanker.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 03 Oct 2010 17:37


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby srai » 04 Oct 2010 06:45

D Roy wrote:...
According to the Indian Navy,
The total number of aircraft are 190. The details of
various aircraft in the IN inventory are as follows:-
...
(b) Helicopters - 119




Possible breakup of IN numbers by 2022:

...
4. 60 Seaking replacement MRH
...
6.50 + LOH
...
7. 47 + ALH replacing Chetaks
8. 30 + Helixes

...


I think the above numbers are not quite accurate regarding the 47 ALHs and 30 Helixes. ALH did not meet Navy's requirements and 30 Helixes are too many (IN would want to standardize on Medium ASW Helos).

If we look at the number of IN surface combatants for the Medium ASW Helicopters, the full capacity will be around 60 helos.

40 - capacity to carry 2 helos (3 P-15, 3 P-15A, 4 P-15B, 3 P-17, 7 P-17A)
8 - capacity for 1 helo (4 P-28, 4 P-28A)
12 - assuming 4 helos per aircraft (1 Kiev-mod, 1 P-71, 1 P-71A)
------------------------------------------
60 Total Medium ASW Helo "capacity"

But it is likely only about 70% would be needed as not all ships are in sea at the same time and there are V-UAVs available as well. So likely around 45 Medium ASW helicopters would be inducted. [Rest could be SAR variants (6-15 units.]

50 - Light Helicopters (as per news reports) to replace Chetaks ... no ALH (did not meet requirements)

12 - Ka-31 AEW (assuming 4 per aircraft carrier)

6 - Ka-28 (3 Kirvak III, 3 Kirvak IIIA) ... although could be retired by 2022+.

24 - Heavy/Medium-lift Helicopters (4 indigenous LPD - 6 per LPD)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby dinesha » 04 Oct 2010 08:20

With no govt deals L&T's defence unit may face loss
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 681021.cms

Larsen & Toubro (L&T), which has invested Rs 2,500 crore to manufacture ships for the defence sector in Kattupalli in Tamil Nadu, faces the prospect of loss on its investments in the absence of orders, says a senior executive. The government is placing the order for manufacturing warships to public sector firms and importing submarines from foreign countries.

"If the government does not buy products of our shipyard, we will have to look at options for capacity utilisation of our new facility and also think on deploying manpower at other operations," said senior executive vice-president (heavy engineering) MV Kotwal.

The Kattupalli facility is scheduled to start commercial operations by December this year. The facility, which will have a total investment of Rs 3,000 crore, has 3,500 employees.


The Indian defence sector opened up for private participation in 2001 with the FDI limit capped at 26%, prompting companies like L&T, Tata, Ashok Leyland , Mahindra and Mahindra and Bharat Forge to enter the sector. However, L&T and Tata are among the few, which have developed capabilities to manufacture strategic equipment and acquired standard qualifications.

L&T's heavy engineering division had received licences for manufacturing submarines, warships and some of the strategic equipment in 2002.

It had also supported government agencies in manufacturing India's first indigenous nuclear powered submarine, INS Arihant, in June last year. But it is yet to get any government order for submarine. "It came as a rude shock," said Mr Kotwal. "Our facility at Hazira was evaluated and cleared for this purpose way back in 2001," he added.

Industry bodies - Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry (Ficci) and Confederation of Indian Industry (CII) - have proposed restructuring the defence procurement policy to encourage greater private sector participation.

"Similar to other sectors, defence sector, too, needs more private participation. It will help the country to bring down expenses," said Vivek Pandit, director for energy and defence at FICCI. According to a latest report released by CII and KPMG, the defence ministry does not provide long-term equipment procurement plans to even big private companies, thereby denying the private players the lead-time to develop the equipment needed in the future.

The Indian defence sector has planned to spend Rs 4,50,000 crore on military equipment in the next 10 years. India imports 70% of its defence requirements, while the remaining is produced by Defence Public Sector Undertakings (DPSU) or its collaboration entities.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Brando » 04 Oct 2010 08:53

^^ What an utter shame! If a huge and capable company like L&T is struggling to break into the naval market, what hope does it give to other companies or the future of private naval defense contractors in India ?

In America the government is simply placing orders even without requirement just to maintain competencies in private companies while in India, private enterprises are treated like illegitimate children asking for inheritance.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 04 Oct 2010 09:02

same mentality which gives preference to PSU banks in terms of Govt money deposits and salary accounts. SBI holds most of the central govt accounts and a lot at state level also...and this continues regardless of pvt banks in a position to offer better terms sometimes. these are hidden subsidies passed on to keep the PSU units in the kommanding heights.

you be the cinderalla and wait for scraps while our inbred, pampered fat boys have their fill of the feeding trough!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Neshant » 04 Oct 2010 09:43

Brando wrote:^^ What an utter shame! If a huge and capable company like L&T is struggling to break into the naval market, what hope does it give to other companies or the future of private naval defense contractors in India ?


By the time the Indian govt clues in, not a single local company will want to ever enter the defence sector and those in it would be bankrupt.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 04 Oct 2010 10:39

Neshant wrote:
Brando wrote:^^ What an utter shame! If a huge and capable company like L&T is struggling to break into the naval market, what hope does it give to other companies or the future of private naval defense contractors in India ?


By the time the Indian govt clues in, not a single local company will want to ever enter the defence sector and those in it would be bankrupt.


Nothing new;

When we say indegenisation, some concepts have become terribly outdated. For example the Rubberised tracks for Arjun. MRF set up a special factory for it. Its not just MRF, the industry is littered with Arjun Parts stories. Gen. (Retd.) Shankar Roychowdhury himself had scouted around for manufacturers. What happened? Army attitude killed all those investments. Wo will manufacture for army in such cases? The DPSU’s are forced to manufacture in piece meal fashion, where the qualities associated with serial manufacturing is absent. What was the result? Rubberised tracks are now being imported

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 04 Oct 2010 12:25

And the forces say taht there is no domestic supplier who cna meet their needs.

What BS !!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 04 Oct 2010 13:34

Pratyush wrote:And the forces say taht there is no domestic supplier who cna meet their needs.

What BS !!


And what is the reason to drag Services into this debate?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 04 Oct 2010 13:43

the lack of orders to a yard that has been build by the own resources of an investor. Hoping that it will get orders. But is not likey to get one. Then when the yard is dismantled, the service will lament that no pvt capability to do XYZ exists in the country so we must Import.

The whine is about giving orders to the people who have demosntrated the comitment to meeting the Indian defence requirement at home.

Its about nurturing pvt sector domestic capability.

PIPAV is a good start, but we need more.

JMT

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 04 Oct 2010 14:12

If your beef is with respect to the issue at hand (of Submarine production under P75I Project), then the blame lies at the footstep of MOD. It is MOD which decides who builds what and not Services. Services have given their requirement and urgency - the MOD decided to give 3 to MDL and 1 to HSL+2 from vendor. Ask them why are they pumping in money into MDL to create additional manufacturing line - when one at L&T will sit idle.

So, please stop blaming Services for the issue they have no part in.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 04 Oct 2010 14:24

while its nice to copy other navies who are farther up the curve, I still feel a shore bombardment platform
will be needed for island protection/anti-rogue-regime duties in the IOR. in WW2 the US kept around a fleet of old battleships and screening destroyers who'd support each invasion by a couple days of steady bombardment while "bull halsey" fast battleships + fleet carriers would be in open sea waiting for any IJN fleet.

the 76mm/100m pea shooters we have these days on DDG/FFG will barely scare the flies off a water buffalo's hide, let alone make a quick impression on any island territory staffed with well educated pirates and regime changers clutching their inmarsat terminals and blackberrys with a direct 1-800 line to Pindi.

I would imagine a 5,000t platform built to a modified commercial standard and plugged in with modular
weapons magazines and topside weapons is the cheapest way from Point(A) -> Point(B). no need for costly
radars or AAA - just basic navigational radar, a medium range search radar(rohini?) and two good WLR to track outgoing shells and a control room to plot the fire missions. two for redundancy because it might have
to sit for a couple days around an area and fire steadily.

2 x 155mm heavy duty cannons with virtually unlimited reloads
2 X Pinaka-N system with automatic reload from a big magazine below decks
kashtan cannons+EO for self-defence against FAC/speedboats on each beam
a strong troop of marine infantry (two platoons)

workshop and spare parts onboard to effect wear and tear repairs like changing worn out barrels
using folding cranes etc.

and ofcourse a high freq mine avoidance and bottom mapping sonar to operate in shallow reef strewn waters
and bow thrusters to manouver into confined areas.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 04 Oct 2010 14:58

Singha, you are thinking a modern implementation of the Costal monitor. A nice concept just am not sure of its viability in the era of coastal antiship missiles.

If it can me made stealthy then perhaps it could work. Else it is just a nice target in the absence of Kashtan type capability.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 04 Oct 2010 14:59

Rohit,

The services are a part of the MOD system. So where the MOD is open to blame the same also opens the services to blame by extension as none of the three services has an existence independent of the MOD in the Indian context.

If a tender was floated which was open to participation of L&T. The yard not getting any contract due to commercial reasons would be understandable. But I understand that this is not the case.

JMT

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 04 Oct 2010 15:15

Pratyush,

If you want to argue for sake of it, then there is no way forward.

For your kind information, Service HQs are not part of MOD.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 04 Oct 2010 15:18

navy was eager to have L&T build for it AFAIK. mr clean was not ready to risk the shouts of sell-out though.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 04 Oct 2010 15:21

Rohit,

Thanks and peace

Rahul,

That is truly unfortunate for the defence preparedness of the nation.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 04 Oct 2010 16:10


Willy
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Willy » 04 Oct 2010 17:01

Rahul M wrote:navy was eager to have L&T build for it AFAIK. mr clean was not ready to risk the shouts of sell-out though.



Seeing the sorry state of affairs what we need is someone corrupt who will take money but get the job done. Being to clean has its disadvantages to. Sigghhh but thats the way things work here :( :( :( :(

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 04 Oct 2010 17:08

You know, MoD does not act in vacuum. It acts in tandem of the armed forces.

RahuM,

See the situation is like this.

The current delay in Maz is for absorption of tech and other stuff. even if they delay the first delivery, they can match the final delivery time frame. Once they absorb the techniques, then they can build most of the subs and learning curve will not be steep.

P-75I is expected to be produced 2 in vendors place, 2 in maz and 2 in eastern. All the 3 are more adept in sub manufacturing and repairs.

L&T building just 2 subs will be prohibitively costly and unwarranted.

L&T "may" be rewarded somewhere else or some way. The facility for sub making can be used for other things. No expertice will be lost.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Suresh S » 04 Oct 2010 20:15

Rahul M wrote:navy was eager to have L&T build for it AFAIK. mr clean was not ready to risk the shouts of sell-out though.


Knowing India that is the most likely thing that has happened. But who cares if they nation suffers in the long term.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 04 Oct 2010 22:37

Pratyush wrote:Singha, you are thinking a modern implementation of the Costal monitor. A nice concept just am not sure of its viability in the era of coastal antiship missiles.
.

Speaking of that in GW 1.0 Iraq actually fired a couple Silkworm AshM at the Iowa class (in spite of extensive air superiority and ECM in that region), Royal navy vessels shot them down.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 04 Oct 2010 23:10

Willy wrote:
Rahul M wrote:navy was eager to have L&T build for it AFAIK. mr clean was not ready to risk the shouts of sell-out though.



Seeing the sorry state of affairs what we need is someone corrupt who will take money but get the job done. Being to clean has its disadvantages to. Sigghhh but thats the way things work here :( :( :( :(


How about a Lalit Modi to get things done ?

K


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Willy » 05 Oct 2010 08:54

Seeing the sorry state of affairs what we need is someone corrupt who will take money but get the job done. Being to clean has its disadvantages to. Sigghhh but thats the way things work here :( :( :( :([/quote]

How about a Lalit Modi to get things done ?

K[/quote]


Well dude he would have been doing fine if he had not decided to rub people up the wrong way :D

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 05 Oct 2010 09:49

not to mention making money for the MOD. :P

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 05 Oct 2010 13:05

Just compare how the US establishment is going all out to armtwist India into buying 10+ C-17s that we really do not need,just because Bpeing's C-17 production will have to be closed,as the US Def.Sec.Gates wants no more under any circumstance.The component manufacturers are scattered over 40+ US states and their politicos are crying hoarse for continued production.So "strategic partner" India,"strategic" only where US interests are concerned,with a pro-US PM of ours,whose "tilt" is almost horizontal,is picking up the tab of Billions simply to keep the US workforce employed!

Now compare what L&T are getting in return for all their committment to the ATV project,etc.Shafted royally by the GOI/Congres led govt.It is shameful how the Indian govt, actually punishes and penalises the best known and most capable Indian industrial giant in manufacturing subs in India indigenously,after having proven its worth with the ATV project.That is the sort of scum we have who are our leaders today and the CWG fiasco showwed them up in their true light.No govt. in the world would've let down L&T as the GOI has done.Boeing,Airbus,etc. are so protected by their govts. and are given huge subsidies too in order that they keep their employes busy and happy,but in India,the return of the imperial masters has been welcomed by the likes of Dr.Singh and his cronies,behaving like marionettes to the tune of the robber barons from abroad.


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