Indian Naval Discussion

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Kersi D
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 23 Jul 2011 09:56

Rahul M wrote:
Kersi D wrote:
The speed is given 25 knots, minimum. This works out to 45 kmph ....


:rotfl: Also 40 knots is @75 kmph., imagine a 3000 ton ship making a turn at 75 kmph ...
err, both LCS have top speeds of 44 knots and 47 knots respectively and weigh around 3000 t.


I believe that our 'Tarantul' class and the 'Delhi' class has also touched / crossed 40 knots during trials.

My understanding is that it is very difficult to touch / cross ~ 40 knots with a conventional propeller systems. It causes cavitation which permanently damages them. For speeds of 40+ knots, water jet would be the prefered option. Would appreciate 'expert' opinion

Kersi

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 23 Jul 2011 12:14

How will travelling above 40Knots "permanently damage" propellers? there are many ships which have reached speeds of 40Knots. This list includes some CVNs too, they do these sprints as a rule during trials!!! and sometimes during regular ops when needed.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gurinder P » 23 Jul 2011 13:28

^ he is talking about cavitation. The faster the propellor spins, the more bubbles it creates and those bubbles are called cavitations and they damage props. Since those props are not designed to be sustained at that intensity the faster the damage due to cavitation occurs. I am more worried about the engines overheating.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby bmallick » 23 Jul 2011 13:37

I have a few questions with regards to this new small class of ASW vessel for which RFI was issued. Certain things in this RFI are a bit intriguing.
1. Role of the Ship
The role of ASW Shallow Water Crafts is as follows: -
(a) Anti-submarine warfare operations in coastal waters.
(b) Combating the threat posed by submarines.
(c) Undertaking low intensity maritime operations.
(d) Laying of mines.
2. Area of Operation :- To operate within 200 NM of the base port.

Now of course we we can see that the Ship is to do ASW warfare as well as mine laying. But Area of operation says "with in 200 NM of base port". Now why would we be laying mines 200 NM from our own ports. We would definitely not be mining our own harbour & port entrances. This means that these ships would be tasked to go near enemy ports/harbours or trade routes and lay mines. None of the enemy harbour/ports are within 200nm of base port. Also, if laying mines around enemy coast is the case, wouldn't it be better to ask for better self protection than puny 2 x 12.7 mm guns. Somehow I see a gap in the requirements here.

(c) Weapons
(a) ASW Combat Suite
(i) Hull Mounted Sonar (HMS)
(HMS will be procured in accordance with Section B of DPP-11, Chapter 3. List of vendors would be provided by IHQ MoD(Navy). The equipment should clear FET on NC-NC basis prior fitment onboard the ships.)
(ii) 2x Indigenous Torpedo Launcher
(Three light weight torpedo tubes per launcher in pyramid configuration)
(iii) 1x Indigenous Rocket Launcher
(iv) Mine Laying Rails for Light weight mines
(v) Low Freq Variable Depth Sonar(LFVDS)
(LFVDS will be procured in accordance with Section B of DPP-11, Chapter 3. List of vendors would be provided by IHQ MoD(Navy). The equipment should clear FET on NC-NC basis prior fitment onboard the ships)
(b) Two 12.7 mm Stabilised Remote Control Gun ....................

The RFI specifically mentions indigenous torpedo launcher & indigenous rocket launcher. But for Hull mounted sonar ( HMS) & Low Freq Variable Depth Sonar(LFVDS) it says that the same can be procured from any of the vendors from an approved list. Why not it specifically says indigenous sonar. Are the HUMSA/APSOH/NAGINA etc, sonars designed by NPOL manufactured by multiple indigenous vendors? Or is it a case that even though our capital vessels would be having NPOL designed sonars, the systems are not compact enough for installation on such a small ship?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gurinder P » 23 Jul 2011 15:37

^ PNS Ghazi incident comes my mind when I see your post regarding the ASW corvette. Ghazi came really close to Vizag port in 1971 when it was hunting for INS Vikrant and it was ensnared in the Indian trap. But, these days, if the enemy subs were to have the balls to come so close, these ships would go out and find them, or put mines at strategic locations to hinder the subs movements. I would assume that these ships would mine shallow coastal area's where the subs could have a better chance masking their presence.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 23 Jul 2011 19:14

Gurinder P wrote:^ PNS Ghazi incident comes my mind when I see your post regarding the ASW corvette. Ghazi came really close to Vizag port in 1971 when it was hunting for INS Vikrant and it was ensnared in the Indian trap. But, these days, if the enemy subs were to have the balls to come so close, these ships would go out and find them, or put mines at strategic locations to hinder the subs movements. I would assume that these ships would mine shallow coastal area's where the subs could have a better chance masking their presence.

That is correct the choke points and ports will be mined in times of war and laying mines around enemy coast will be done by submarines.

Gurinder P wrote:^ he is talking about cavitation. The faster the propellor spins, the more bubbles it creates and those bubbles are called cavitations and they damage props. Since those props are not designed to be sustained at that intensity the faster the damage due to cavitation occurs. I am more worried about the engines overheating.

Would not apply to CVN which can sustain 30+ knots for its entire voyage if need be.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby bmallick » 23 Jul 2011 19:34

John wrote:
Gurinder P wrote:^ PNS Ghazi incident comes my mind when I see your post regarding the ASW corvette. Ghazi came really close to Vizag port in 1971 when it was hunting for INS Vikrant and it was ensnared in the Indian trap. But, these days, if the enemy subs were to have the balls to come so close, these ships would go out and find them, or put mines at strategic locations to hinder the subs movements. I would assume that these ships would mine shallow coastal area's where the subs could have a better chance masking their presence.

That is correct the choke points and ports will be mined in times of war and laying mines around enemy coast will be done by submarines.


John, I think Gurinder is talking about mining choke points and shallows around our ports, to prevent enemy subs from moving closer to our ports and waiting in ambush.

Gurinder, mining areas around our own ports is filled with grave dangers and is never done. It simply means that areas our own ports are no more accessible for ships, be naval or otherwise.

Thats the reason, I am loss to exactly understand the need for mine laying capability is being asked for in these coastal ASW vessels. Mines are laid around enemy ports and that would be done by subs, not this puny defenseless vessels. If the RFI called for Mine sweeping capability in these vessel, I can easily relate to that.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 23 Jul 2011 19:49

maybe he means bottom moored tethered mines that are meant to deter submarines. a wire anchors the mine to the bottom weight and the mine itself is submerged below the water depending on depth of the wire. the japanese laid of a lot of such minefields around their inland sea and northern and southern straits....a clear lane was left open but heavily guarded. a pack of american subs used the first submarine sonar sets in the world to navigate past these underground 'forest' of weaving cables and enter the sea of japan for 2 weeks of raiding before escaping.
theres also sea-bottom 'captor mines' which I think are really torpedoes released from the mine. not sure if they can made smart enough to IFF out Indian ships and go after unknown noises only.

agree that untethered floating 'sea mines' are a no-no anywhere in our waters. those things could turn up years later and sink some ship off paraguay for all we know.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby KrishG » 23 Jul 2011 20:18

L&T displayed a model of a prospective corvette design during the DefExpo-10. The pic is from jamwalji's blog.

Image

Bigger image: Link

I think I can faintly make out the displacement of 1000 tons and speed of 28+ knots from the spec sheet.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 23 Jul 2011 20:26

Interesting approach, how will the weapons be chosen by the navy, if she is to be built by the L&T.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 23 Jul 2011 22:54

L&T corvette.An interesting design,but the weapons specs aren't visible at all.All we can see are the main gun (76mm),2X 30mm ADGs,ASW helo/hangar and 2 MBUs.There appears to be some space amidships forward of the funnel where inclined missile launchers could be fitted.The interesting feature is the ship o the bow,a take from the USN's littoral warship design,the trimaran one.deiely not "Janata" though.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby bmallick » 23 Jul 2011 23:27

Philip wrote:L&T corvette.An interesting design,but the weapons specs aren't visible at all.All we can see are the main gun (76mm),2X 30mm ADGs,ASW helo/hangar and 2 MBUs.There appears to be some space amidships forward of the funnel where inclined missile launchers could be fitted.The interesting feature is the ship o the bow,a take from the USN's littoral warship design,the trimaran one.deiely not "Janata" though.


Well just aft of the radar mast, ahead of the "space amidships forward of the funnel ", once can make out 2 x Twin HWT launchers.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 23 Jul 2011 23:51

Tx.Is that what those "objects" are? It is good to see L&T coming up with an initiative of its own.The shipbuilding facility north of Madras is waiting for orders and should be encouraged.A good first step woul b o award i with several "Janatas",with subs to come as well.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby bmallick » 24 Jul 2011 00:01

Well they sure look like HWT.

L&T shouldn't have much difficulty in coming up with a design for the Janata Corvette. The only thing extra in the above design from L&T is the helicopter hangar & deck, rest everything is same as the required RFI. Hence if they remove the heli-deck and shorten the design it should work.

One design that I have in mind is similar to the Petya. Infact have similar layout as the Petya, with front gun, followed by reloadable RBU-6000 B-deck. Aft of the torpedo section, remove the second gun and put in a room for mine storage, UUV storage, further aft towed Sonar. Also how about putting a platform, just over the Torpedos, starting from the funnel all the way to aft. Such a platform can be used as a heli-deck.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 24 Jul 2011 01:12

A baby Talwar class.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 24 Jul 2011 10:32

KrishG wrote:L&T displayed a model of a prospective corvette design during the DefExpo-10. The pic is from jamwalji's blog.
I think I can faintly make out the displacement of 1000 tons and speed of 28+ knots from the spec sheet.
A good design from L&T, Kudos to them to design and display such a design well before IN releases an RFI for this class of ship. This will be a great start for L&Ts shipbuilding. We should produce atleast 2 Dozens of these babies and progressively upgrade some of our older Corvettes (and other smaller ships) with some of the Bells&Whistles from this design!!!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gurinder P » 24 Jul 2011 11:20

John wrote:
Gurinder P wrote:^ he is talking about cavitation. The faster the propellor spins, the more bubbles it creates and those bubbles are called cavitations and they damage props. Since those props are not designed to be sustained at that intensity the faster the damage due to cavitation occurs. I am more worried about the engines overheating.

Would not apply to CVN which can sustain 30+ knots for its entire voyage if need be.


I was talking about ships being pushed past their safe operating limits. The CVN's are designed to operate at 30+ knots but going to 40+ knots would be dangerous.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 24 Jul 2011 11:51

Does L&T (or any other vendor) have naval architects? (Googled and could not find any leads.)

IF they do then they need to rethink that design. From what I have read, corvettes - when properly designed - can bring a lot to the table. There seems to be a small window when more and practical innovations can be introduced and benefit everyone. It would be tiring to see old designs being dusted and given some cosmetics and presented as something great.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby RajSingh » 24 Jul 2011 11:57

L&T hires Naval architects from IIT's .. actually one of my friends who was a naval architect at IIT kgp got into Mazagaon Docks but he is disappointed as he says he does nto have any real work and most of the work is outsourced to "foreign" companies !! He had also interned at L&T's facility in Gujarat and was very impressed by it .

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 24 Jul 2011 12:07

Outsourcing in the past is to be expected ............... they had the experience and India was in a low risk client.

I expect the situation to have somewhat changed. The fact that the MoD/IN has provided a rather broad requirement for the corvette, it leads me to believe that the MoD/IN has a lot more confidence in Indian capabilities - at least when it comes to a corvette.

I feel this is a very neat challenge tossed at the India companies. IIRC they are willing to look at multiple solutions too and select the better one and have two vendors build them. ????

Hope your friend finds better hunting grounds.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 24 Jul 2011 12:18

the speed is listed as 26 knots, beam 12m and draft 3m. so it can go into plenty of shallow water.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 24 Jul 2011 14:20

bmallick wrote:Well they sure look like HWT.

L&T shouldn't have much difficulty in coming up with a design for the Janata Corvette. The only thing extra in the above design from L&T is the helicopter hangar & deck, rest everything is same as the required RFI. Hence if they remove the heli-deck and shorten the design it should work.

One design that I have in mind is similar to the Petya. Infact have similar layout as the Petya, with front gun, followed by reloadable RBU-6000 B-deck. Aft of the torpedo section, remove the second gun and put in a room for mine storage, UUV storage, further aft towed Sonar. Also how about putting a platform, just over the Torpedos, starting from the funnel all the way to aft. Such a platform can be used as a heli-deck.


In general I would not opt for a "Petya" type as they were suppose to have very poor sea keeping capabilities. On of them, INS Andaman (correct me if I am wrong) was lost in a storm, somewhere off the eastern coast.

Let us look beyond the Petya/ We can consider our Khukri class as the starting base and build on it

K

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby bmallick » 24 Jul 2011 14:26

[quote="Kersi D]
Let us look beyond the Petya/ We can consider our Khukri class as the starting base and build on it
K[/quote]

The reason for not suggesting Khukri class was because this class has a displacement of 1400 tons. The RFI specifically mentions displacement not more than 650 tons. Hence a smaller hull is required.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 24 Jul 2011 14:53

Kersi D wrote:In general I would not opt for a "Petya" type as they were suppose to have very poor sea keeping capabilities. On of them, INS Andaman (correct me if I am wrong) was lost in a storm, somewhere off the eastern coast.

K


The Petyas were OK sea keeping wise. They were not the blue water types anyway and did fairly well in their limited role.

The Andaman sank because she was not seaworthy when she sailed. The weather was not a big factor in her loss.

Our dear magsaysay ramdas was the moron who insisted and sailed her in spite of her unseaworthy condition. He was the C in C at Vizag at the time.

Any wonder why the creep figures on ISI Fai's list?

I lost a very good friend on this ship. I visited the Andaman quite by chance, the day before she sailed, to meet him. The crew were not at all happy to put to sea. :evil:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 24 Jul 2011 19:18

an excellent article in IN publication naval despatch, page 11 "Navy and research" .

http://indiannavy.nic.in/dnt_navaldespa ... 100726.pdf
Indigenous Research for Our Navy
The role of Defence Research and
Development Organisation (DRDO) is the main one
in context of research on topics relevant to the Navy.
The country is fortunate to have the organisational
set-up and the infrastructure to carry out fundamental
research for defence applications. Three laboratories
are specifically oriented for naval applications. These
are Naval Physical Oceanographic Laboratory (NPOL)
at Kochi, Naval Science & Technological Laboratory
(NSTL) at Visakhapatnam, and Naval Materials
Research Laboratory (NMRL) at Ambernath. Each of
them has made many significant contributions to the
Navy.
There can be no doubt as to the utility,
expertise and relevance of these institutions. The
question is how can they be strengthened and
complemented in finding solutions to problems for
the Navy? To many in the service, DRDO laboratories
appear as distant establishments that are unlikely to
provide quick answers, which anyway should be
cross-checked (preferably by foreign consultants)
. This
impression may be based on individual experiences,
but it does need to change, and the DRDO labs
should take the lead in changing it. The fact remains
that the scientists and facilities in our DRDO
laboratories represent the best long-term hope for
development in indigenous naval technologies


read it all, it's that good.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vasu_ray » 24 Jul 2011 20:36

Probably they are the only ones capable of developing deep diving submersibles in India for the purposes of sea bed mineral exploration, installing tidal turbines based sea bed arrays and sub rescue

site selection studies for off shore wind turbines

sea launch initiatives

but then there is no peep about the KMGT since 2009 or even follow on 25MW turbines which is where the current wind turbine ratings are heading

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 25 Jul 2011 12:10

Breach in dry dock could further delay Scorpene delivery

The Scorpene submarine project that is already three years behind schedule has received another setback after a massive breach and flooding in the Mazgaon Docks Limited (MDL) where the vessels are being constructed. Sources said the dry dock of the shipbuilding yard developed a breach, causing a massive flooding that submerged key components that were being manufactured.

A detailed assessment is awaited but initial estimates by the Navy indicate that the project could be delayed by two—three months. While efforts are being made to clear the dock and restore the working area, sea water is still accumulated, hampering work. Several components of the submarine were submerged by the intake of sea water, including sections of the hull that have already been fabricated.

“It is not a major setback. There could be a slight delay but in the long run we can make up on time lost,” an official familiar with the incident said. This is the latest in a series of setbacks for the submarine project that was inked in 2005 after a record Rs 18,000 crore deal with French firm DCNS to manufacture six vessels in India.

According to the contract, the first submarine was to be delivered by December 2012, followed by one submarine a year so that the entire fleet would be inducted by 2017. However, the project underwent a major delay due to initial teething problems in absorbing the technology and creating of infrastructure at MDL. DCNS also came under flak by the CAG that said in a report that it was given undue favour and concession for the contract by the government.

The first submarine is now scheduled to be delivered only by the second half of 2015, resulting in a three-year delay in the project. While the quantum of delay due to the flooding of the dry dock is yet to be finalised, any more delays in the project will come as bad news for the Navy that is already struggling with a depleted submarine fleet.

The effective submarine strength has drastically come down to only 14 boats after a series of boats were retired after achieving the end of their service life. However, the effective strength at any given time is estimated to be around nine due to maintenance and upgrade issues.

The Navy has already initiated a process to procure six new next generation submarines that will be equipped with Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) to give them longer endurance but a tender is yet to be issued.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby AdityaM » 25 Jul 2011 13:02

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/age-factor/819906/0

Pirate games

Always keen to showcase its achievements in tackling piracy, the Navy issued a release on Tuesday detailing a rescue mission that saved a Greek ship from pirates. The detailed release mentioned that since its deployment in 2008, the Indian Navy had escorted 1,665 ships safely in the Gulf of Aden. But an unusual coincidence deflated the Navy’s spirits. It so happened that Beijing too chose Tuesday to detail its piracy fighting efforts. While the Chinese Navy came much later on the scene, the release claimed that its ships have escorted more than 4,000 merchant vessels in the pirate-infested region.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 25 Jul 2011 13:10

AdityaM wrote:http://www.indianexpress.com/news/age-factor/819906/0

Pirate games

Always keen to showcase its achievements in tackling piracy, the Navy issued a release on Tuesday detailing a rescue mission that saved a Greek ship from pirates. The detailed release mentioned that since its deployment in 2008, the Indian Navy had escorted 1,665 ships safely in the Gulf of Aden. But an unusual coincidence deflated the Navy’s spirits. It so happened that Beijing too chose Tuesday to detail its piracy fighting efforts. While the Chinese Navy came much later on the scene, the release claimed that its ships have escorted more than 4,000 merchant vessels in the pirate-infested region.


But does not mention where, I think 75% of these escorts would be in South China Sea which might also be in the region.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 25 Jul 2011 14:24

Adit,"Indo-China Sea" if you please! Yep.it is rumoured that piracy in that Sea and the malacca Straits isa ctually controlled by the Chinese,so "combating it" should be apiece of cake for the PLAN!

IN/MOD,get your act together fast.Apart from the 80-100 new subs that the PLAN will possess by 2020,there are at least two dozen+ subs on order for the ASEAN states,SoKo and Japan.Now Oz plans a total of 12 new conventional AIP long range subs with US assistance.The pathtic fiugure of 24 subs including our N-subs,will be woefully inadequate to sanitise the IOR and other regions of interest for the IN by the next decade.The IN should order a new line of BMos AIP subs with Russian assitance,plus order extra U-boats from the family of 209/214s and no allow the two+ decades of operating German U-baots and thei etch lost to the IN.For over two decades+ we have been operating 3 types of subs,Foxtrots,Kilos and U-209/1500s.We also had the Chakra/Charlie-2 N-sub as well for a few years.Therefore operating 3 conventional classes will not be a problem for the IN.The new Indo-Russian BMos subs (Amur or whatever) will replace older Kilos,with the remaining used for training,coastal patrol and as trial subs for future weapons and sensors.The N-subs will be the cutting edge of the sub fleet.

DTI had a pic in its latest issue of a Chinese Yuan class sub with a intriguing detail.The sub,resembling a Chinese Kilo copy had a larger than normal sail,plus a distinctive bulge/hump amidships below the hull (looking like a hull-mounted sonar dome on surface warship),instead of a hump above the hull and abaft of the sail,as is usual with missile armed subs with vertcial silos, leading to speculation that it was made to house a longer missile than the sub's normal diameter possibly a version of its latest ICBM and possibly also on transfer to Pak.

Here are detais of Oz's ambitions for comparison:

Smith seeking US help to build 12 subs Brendan Nicholson
From: The Australian July 25, 2011 DEFENCE Minister Stephen Smith will seek US help with Australia's plan to build 12 big conventional submarines to replace the navy's six troubled Collins-class boats

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nationa ... 6100939528

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 25 Jul 2011 14:52

AdityaM wrote:http://www.indianexpress.com/news/age-factor/819906/0

Pirate games

Always keen to showcase its achievements in tackling piracy, the Navy issued a release on Tuesday detailing a rescue mission that saved a Greek ship from pirates. The detailed release mentioned that since its deployment in 2008, the Indian Navy had escorted 1,665 ships safely in the Gulf of Aden. But an unusual coincidence deflated the Navy’s spirits. It so happened that Beijing too chose Tuesday to detail its piracy fighting efforts. While the Chinese Navy came much later on the scene, the release claimed that its ships have escorted more than 4,000 merchant vessels in the pirate-infested region.



The IN stats are factual. The PLAN stats are out of some ones musharaff if they are talking of escorting 4000 ships in the horn of Africa.

That too in a time perios smaller then the IN with equal number of ships and similar areas of responsibility.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 25 Jul 2011 14:57

Philip,

Much as I agree with you in terms of naval building programme. The sad reality is that it is not going to happen. One of the IN chiefs is on the record that India should not worry about matching the PLAN buildup.

Perhaps he was right. But the needs of the Navy are to deter the PLAN and destroy the PN. In addition to keeping the SLCOS open. If the build up doesnot happen then how is the IN going to get the job done.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 25 Jul 2011 18:59

What is the rationality for trying to counter PLAN in quantity chances of full scale naval encounter is high unlikely and even more important we don't have the SYs to even build or maintain that many ships.

Austin wrote:Breach in dry dock could further delay Scorpene delivery

MDL complained about having its submarine line idle and know the orders have arrived has executed them very poorly. It puzzles me why we didn't have the first 3 built in France.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 25 Jul 2011 21:19

Apart from the 80-100 new subs that the PLAN will possess by 2020,there are at least two dozen+ subs on order for the ASEAN states,SoKo and Japan.Now Oz plans a total of 12 new conventional AIP long range subs with US assistance.The pathtic fiugure of 24 subs including our N-subs,will be woefully inadequate to sanitise the IOR and other regions of interest for the IN by the next decade.


80-100 are not going to be deployed in the IOR. (looks like they already have around 60 boats. Of which some 30 or more are dilapidated?)

Also, there are nations that will be equally concerned and tracking them boats. India will not be alone.

Granted MoD needs to do more.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 25 Jul 2011 22:46

depending on whom you believe, PLAN has around 27-33 modern diesel electric boats. and 4 modern nuclear ones, 2 SSN and 2 SSBN.

here's a list I made
Submarines ---- 33-41

SSK 27-33

877 EKM Kilo-I 2
P 636 Kilo-II 10 at least 8 capable of firing klub missile
039 Song 10+ possibly as many as 16
039A/041 Yuan 5 AIP equipped

Nuclear 8

SSN 5

091 Han 3
093 Shang 2

SSBN 3

092 Xia 1
094 Jin 2


the rest of the subs that make up the 80,90 zillion etc numbers are rustbucket class and can be ignored from our POV. I don't think this number is going to increase by much, 50 is the upper limit I would estimate, SSK and SSN combined. 40 is a more reasonable number.
now, I don;t think we need to match them 1 for 1 because they have far more troubles than we do, countering taiwan, japan, SoKo and now even vietnam.

I would however like to see a larger proportion of SSN's in our fleet.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shukla » 26 Jul 2011 02:20


Shrinivasan
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 26 Jul 2011 10:49

shukla wrote:Coast Guard plans to set up air base in Vizag - Times Of India
a long overdue move. The current airport in Vizag is huge but the area for Navy/ICG is fast getting gobbled up by a fast exploding civilian air-traffic. There was a move to relocate the civil airport to somewhere else but has not happened. they need to expand the airport build more apron space if they need to setup a dedicted airbase. Incase we need to have agressive patrolling by the Navy in the Central Bay og Bengal Region, launching Sorties from Vizag would be the best option (ARK would be too far to the south), Civilian traffic would come in the way. Does Desh curtail civilian air traffic in these share AFBs like Pune or Chandigarh.
Even Nagpur is becoming a Pain in the Bxxx for IAF with civilian traffic exploding.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 26 Jul 2011 18:28

No one is advocating "matching" the PLAN and western intel say that the 80-100 PLA subs will all be new construction.There are 3-4 new N-sub dsigns on the anvil plus the same number of conventional AIP subs.The PLAN are very interestingly making incremental improvements after just two or three units.Pak is also going to possess at least 12 new modern AIP subs,Agostas plus the Chinese AIP subs with Stirling AIP systems,that will be able to carry Pak's sub based N-tipped missiles.The sub mentioned with the under-hull bulge housing a longer BM than the sub's diameter,will probably see a new class of sub appear in the near future.Aaprt from the Chinese subs,add up the number of subs that ASEAN nations,Pak,Oz and US and other major western subs operating in the IOR ,not to mention Gulf states sub ambitions to match Iran and you will find that a phenomenal number of at least around 200 subs appear !The Sino-Pak combine will have 80-100 at least and hostile Oz who always want to match India will have at least 12.With the goodly aprt of our N-sub fleet devotde to securing our strategic deterrent,for IOR-Gulf,Indo-China Sea ,Pacific ops,and defending the Indian coast and isalnd territories we will need at least 24 subs most AIP,smaller ones for littoral and HUK ops and larger ones for trans-ocean patrols.I also predict that China will soon supply even Burma with subs to open another new flanking manoeuvre against india.The IOR/Indo-China Sea is going to become a deadly underwater playground in the coming years.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Nihat » 26 Jul 2011 23:32

Philip Can you PLEASE try to write in Paragraphs sometime.

Also, if possible provide a link about Western Intl. which state that 80-100 new PLAN subs are on the anvil, I would really like to give it a read.

The Sino-Pak combine will have 80-100 at least and hostile Oz who always want to match India will have at least 12


Can you also clarify if by Oz you meant Australia, in which case I wonder when they were "hostile" to India and since when have they always wanted to match Indian Navy

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 27 Jul 2011 01:24

The RAN has been fairly hostile to the Indian presence in the IO waters.


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