Indian Naval Discussion

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bmallick
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby bmallick » 11 Aug 2011 13:25

Come to think of it, if we are able to pack in 8-12 Nirbhays into the P17A, then we would be having a really potent frigate. Each would have 24 Barak-8, 32 Barak-1, 8 Brahmos & 8 Nirbhays. Now this sounds too little. But look at it this way, they seldom would move alone. But a squadron of 3 would field 72 long Range SAMs, 24 land attack missiles & 24 Anti Ship missiles, still each costing less than a full fledged destroyer which should actually called a cruiser.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vasu » 11 Aug 2011 15:12

NRao wrote:LD,

Perhaps you should do yourself a favor and learn to read articles. BEFORE you post things that are very well known and understood on this forum.


With all due respect, BR forum is the only reliable source of information and opinion on our armed forces, and has readers of all age groups, awareness levels and backgrounds coming to read.

Some things may be very well known and understood on this forum by the regular old timers, but its okay for some of them to be repeated from time to time for all the rest of us.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shyamd » 11 Aug 2011 16:23

Kersi D wrote:
Vipul wrote:UK proposes building future warships with India.
Is this just a carrot-and-stick approach to get MMRCA order to Typhoon ?

K

Its been in the offing for a while (since last year). expect yindu's to put in our own stuff in there (weapons etc).

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby samverma » 11 Aug 2011 16:39

bmallick wrote:Come to think of it, if we are able to pack in 8-12 Nirbhays into the P17A, then we would be having a really potent frigate. Each would have 24 Barak-8, 32 Barak-1, 8 Brahmos & 8 Nirbhays. Now this sounds too little. But look at it this way, they seldom would move alone. But a squadron of 3 would field 72 long Range SAMs, 24 land attack missiles & 24 Anti Ship missiles, still each costing less than a full fledged destroyer which should actually called a cruiser.



sir,

you read my mind... this would be a very lethal ship (if ever built)..wonder if the guru's agree with this configuration and if we are planning on doing something on this line

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Aug 2011 16:43

at one end we have some JMSDF Haruna/Shirane class DDGs which unusually mounted three helicopters for ASW potency.

at other end we have DDG51/PLAN ships that keep a token heli landing deck for VBSS/CSAR/emergency recovery landings and no hanger at all. this frees up quite a giant volume for aft missile silos.

methink we can try the 2nd route on a flight of 3 x P17A and see how it goes. the space freed up by helicopter hanger can be kept for 8-12 nirbhay VL tubes or inclined tubes(if lower CoG is desired). Can carry a token 6 brahmos amidships in inclined tubes pointing up at a high angle (to clear nearby ships) and 32 barak8 on foredeck. the Oto-Melara 5" ERGM type cannon is ofcourse a must to launch a hailstorm of long range shells right behind the nirbhay salvo. this should be good enough to first target fixed infra of small naval bases / coastal targets with nirbhays and follow it up from 100km away with guided shells...the kind of tools that can wipe out pirate bases for example without even entering the 15 mile territorial waters....fall of shot spotting via third party UAV feed.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby bmallick » 11 Aug 2011 19:26

Why not a single class of ship with 5" gun, 32 universal VLS from L&T in fore deck. 1 or 2 RBU just aft of this VLS section, just like the Shivaliks. Amid ship, twin torpedo launchers for HWT. 32 Barak-1 & 2 Ak-630. Now aft, in between the thick space between the heli-hangar, fit in 30 more Universal VLS launchers. Typically the Hangars would be 15-18 m in length. Also form pictures of shivalik you can see that there is about 3-4 m space between the two inner walls of the hangar. Hence with if each VLS is 75cmx75cm, so a 3 m by 10 m should be enough for 30 VLS.

Now with 62 VLS, if 12 are taken by Brahmos, we still have the following options:
1. 50 Barak-8 in AAW mission
2. 32 Barak-8 & 18 Nirbhay for Land attack mission
3. 40 Barak-8, 10 ASW Klub, for ASW mission.
4. 50 Nirbhays for out and out Land attack & amphibious support missions

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 11 Aug 2011 19:31

guys, there is already a design your own ship thread, please use that one for speculative exercises.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 11 Aug 2011 23:37

This article on MiG from FlightGlobal has a MiG official stating that the IN is "highly satisfied" with the MiG-29K/KUB and that they've already flown more than 1000 hours for the fleet.

Korotkov said 11 MiG-29K/KUB shipborne fighters have been delivered to the Indian navy, with the remaining aircraft from a 16-aircraft launch order to be handed over by the end of this year.

A follow-on contract for 29 more aircraft was signed earlier this year, with these to be delivered from 2012.

Korotkov said India is "completely satisfied" with the performance of its MiG-29K/KUBs, after racking up more than 1,000 flight hours during operational trials over a one-year period.

The Russian navy has also shown interest in the K/KUB model, he said, with an initial order for 12-14 aircraft potentially being signed during this month's MAKS air show in Moscow.


Since the IN operated 4 MiG-29K/KUBs between Feb 2010 till June 2011, that means that the first 4 airframes were quite heavily used, with the IN likely raising or converting and qualifying multiple crews on these initial 4 airframes. In around 16 months they've probably each flown about 200 hours each, a lot higher than their usage will be once the fleet and crew matures and stabilizes.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Surya » 12 Aug 2011 00:46

thats my main annoyance with the Gorshkov

By the time that arrives (if it arrives ) we would have flogged our Mig 29 Ks to death

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 12 Aug 2011 02:25

Surya wrote:thats my main annoyance with the Gorshkov

By the time that arrives (if it arrives ) we would have flogged our Mig 29 Ks to death


I'm not sure if thats' going to happen Surya..the MiG-29K's have (I believe) a TTL of 4000 hours/25 years and as on the IAF's current MiG-29's, this can probably be extended if there are no major fatigue issues with them (although being naval jets, they will be more susceptible to fatigue thanks to very high stresses during carrier landings).

There will be plenty of life left on every single MiG-29K/KUB when INS Vik joins service. And given their price, I wouldn't mind the IN placing orders for a few more to maybe raise a third MiG-29K squadron as well..that'll alleviate some of the pressure we're seeing on the IAF due to depleting squadron strength.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 12 Aug 2011 12:37

Good idea Kartik,if the aircraft is meeting the needs well.There was a report about the Russians transferring almost all their naval aviation fighters to the RUAF,apart from LRMP aircraft,etc.The PLAN also has a large number of land based fighters in their inventory.With the IN having several air bases around the country,nearer or on the coastline,these could be augmented with extra aircraft designated for the maritime defence/strike role,leaving more IAF front-line aircraft to do duty on our eastern,nothern and wstern borders to combat China and Pak.With an increasing role being envisaged for the IN,a permanent presence in the Indo-China Sea through the use of Vietnamese base facilities,it would be neccessary for the IN to also augment its naval aviation assets ,both LRMP and strike aircraft,in support of maritime ops and the surface fleet.A sqd. of Backfire maritime bombers,once planned,would also be most useful.esp. against PLAN carriers.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby narayana » 12 Aug 2011 13:02

Surya wrote:thats my main annoyance with the Gorshkov

By the time that arrives (if it arrives ) we would have flogged our Mig 29 Ks to death


it will also mean that navy has Hands on expereince & training of 1000 hrs on these fighters.


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sum » 13 Aug 2011 13:02

^^ Keeping fingers crossed that Russkies don't discover the need for another round of interior painting..

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Surya » 13 Aug 2011 19:58

well no disagreement with getting more 29Ks - would be better if the supply chain was partly indian.

narayana

partly true as its only a partial subsitituion for real ops from a carrier

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sum » 13 Aug 2011 21:55

^^ Times NOW heroes episode of this week had IN as the episode and 2 stories were featured:

1. A Lt.Cdr from INS Beas ( seems to be a MARCO as well) who was given Nausena medal for rescueing a merchant ship from pirates.

2. A IN senior aviator who managed to incredibly save a Il-38-SD and its crew from certain crash when ALL electrical systems on board failed ( an apparent 4th level of mechanical redundancy helped in braking the craft on landing since even brakes require electric power and everything was dead on the Il-38SD).

One thing which he mentioned was that he used his mobile phone( if i heard him right) to contact ATC when near Dabolim since even Radio was dead on the craft. Do we get mobile signals in the air at such distances from land?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shyamd » 13 Aug 2011 22:29

^^ Sum ji, is it online? Wasn't able to find it.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sum » 13 Aug 2011 22:32

Actually saw it on the channel itself ~2 hrs back ( 9:30PM every sat)...even i couldnt locate the online link yet and so put up the gist.
Hope that the channel puts it up online. Already missed last week episode on the 21SF officer!! :x :x

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby aditya_d » 13 Aug 2011 22:53

Link to two min promo of Times Now 'Heroes' series -
Heroes: The defiant marines - talks about the IL -38 failure referred by Sum sir above.

http://www.timesnow.tv/Heroes-The-defia ... 381126.cms

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shukla » 14 Aug 2011 04:59

India to get 5 MiG-29K fighters from Russia

Russian makers of MiG aircraft will hand over remaining five MiG-29K/KUB carrier-based fighters to the Indian Navy by the end of this year.

"We will fulfil the 2004 contract by the end of this year. We have already delivered 11 out of 16 aircraft," MiG CEO Sergei Korotkov said.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby saip » 14 Aug 2011 06:35

Deleted


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Katare » 15 Aug 2011 22:05

11 aircrafts in 7 years! Go Russia go!!!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Boreas » 15 Aug 2011 22:51

Katare wrote:11 aircrafts in 7 years!

that is bcause it has to coincide (be relative) with the delivery of gorky.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Indranil » 16 Aug 2011 07:42

Should India sap up as many as possible:

Buy aircraft carrier for just Pound 3.5 million

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shiv » 16 Aug 2011 08:12

indranilroy wrote:Should India sap up as many as possible:

Buy aircraft carrier for just Pound 3.5 million



Didn't we do just that? Snap up a cheap aircraft carrier. India led the way.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Indranil » 16 Aug 2011 09:22

^^^ Got me :D.

I was too anxious to post I guess. I was never for getting the Ark Royal.

But the frigates, destroyers and helis are at junk prices. There was a report that the Navy was short on vessels carrying out CGs job. Could these be bought to serve us for 10 years while the latest ones come aboard?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 16 Aug 2011 10:16

CG job should be done by CG vessels - far cheaper than retired obsolete ex-RN vessels whose opex and refit will be much much costlier.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 16 Aug 2011 14:02

I agree with Shiv,the carrier is a steal! I remember how an ACNS recounting to his superior,the excellent state of the Hermes which India had acquired,that too even after the Falklands campaign.The Ark,with its complement of Sea Harriers/GR could serve us for another decade+ and give us a replacement for the Viraat when she is eventually retd. We would effectively then operate three carriers by the time the IAC-1 arrives and is fully commissioned.The Virat could then become a training ship/support amphib ops for the remainder of her service life.

The Ark could also serve as an amhphib ops vessel,carrying a fleet of Sea Kings/EH-101s.I would advise cash-strpped Britain,to offer the carrier + aircraft,spares,weaponry,etc.,as a package deal to the IN saap.I also predict that there might be a quick buy from a Chinese "casino" operator,who might want another flaoting casino like the varyag/Shi Lang-whatever! Some S.American nations might also like to explore this option,perhaps Argentina,who want to retake the Falklands/Malvinas? That would be hilarious!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sum » 16 Aug 2011 14:06

^^ Honeslty, after the "free" Gorky experience, doubt IN will ever in their lifetime touch another carrier being offered for a "steal"..

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nits » 16 Aug 2011 14:10

indranilroy wrote:Should India sap up as many as possible:

Buy aircraft carrier for just Pound 3.5 million


Hope TPA do not buy some of these... :|

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 16 Aug 2011 14:30

nits wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Should India sap up as many as possible:

Buy aircraft carrier for just Pound 3.5 million


Hope TPA do not buy some of these... :|


Let them, it would anther Gorshkov, aircraftcarrier is virtually free but onboard systems, aircraft etc, considering british wages would a coll $5Billion +

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nits » 16 Aug 2011 15:13

Aditya_V wrote:
nits wrote:Hope TPA do not buy some of these... :|


Let them, it would anther Gorshkov, aircraftcarrier is virtually free but onboard systems, aircraft etc, considering british wages would a coll $5Billion +


I meant Helis and other Naval ships... Carrier is surely out of question for them...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 18 Aug 2011 16:55

Guys,there is a fab garage sale on right now with the UK MOD.James Bond stuff,etc. for sale at throwaway prices.Fancy watches for agents to display at diplomatic parties-as if they were top dip0lomutts,at bucket shop prices! Helicopters,etc. at tractor prices.If I was AKA I would make a beeline for Blighty right now and get me the carrier on the cheap plus filling it fully with other assorted goodies! For any BRites in Blighty right now,make use of this one-time opportunity.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby uddu » 18 Aug 2011 18:27

Helicopters will not be needed.
Ships can be considered if and only if there is no need for any kind of upgradation or work required to make it sea worthy and also associated equipments that need to be purchased. If we can do any kind of modifications along with our own systems onboard and if the ships can be used for another 10 years (for frigates). Then it may be worth looking into it.
Since Vikramaditya will be coming in 2012, it will be better to try the frigates, especially the last four decommissioned ones.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby uddu » 18 Aug 2011 18:35

What about the Queen and the Prince? :)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 19 Aug 2011 10:25

Katare wrote:11 aircrafts in 7 years! Go Russia go!!!


keep in mind that the MiG-29K version that the IN received didn't exist back in 2004- there have been very significant changes made to the airframe and IN specified avionics were integrated as well. So in some respects, a full-spec MiG-29K is akin to a Su-30MKI Phase 3- fully developed but very different from any other version of MiG-29 or Su-30 around.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sombhat » 19 Aug 2011 12:41


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 19 Aug 2011 12:53

The flat top is the key acquisition.It can serve for another 25 years at least and whe eevr a new helo or STOVL aircraft is developed accomodate it! The SoKo Dodko is an amphib carrier in all respects.V.interstingly,these days -even though I've been saying this for over a decade+,the "carrier amphibs" lobby is growing in the US.The need ro affordable medium sized flat tops instead of massively expensive super-carriers has focusse its attention on the "cross-over" capability of LHPDs.It is what I've described before as the "swing factor".The new carrier amphibs come fully capable of conducting swing ops from amphib ops,vert. assault,special forces ops,support of amphib ops through use of attack helos,ASW, and even fleet air defence through JSF style STOVL strike aircraft.

The frigates do not have the internal flexibility and their lifespan will be far less shortlived.It is very difficult to upgrade or modernise an old surface combatant as sensors,missile siols,guns,etc. have to be replaced.That is how we still have the Viraat soldieiring on 50+ years after it was commissioned!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 19 Aug 2011 15:02

Britain is being flushed in gutter back to its bankrupted poor status, while Bharat is arising back to its "Rich Swarnim Yug". 10 years from now we may start giving them our old ships in kaudion ke daam.

Nothing but brand new will do for our forces from now. Hopefully gorky and trenton will be the last 2nd hand ships we get.


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