Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 03, 2010

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 07 Sep 2010 18:21

^^^ The refugee spillover into India is a worrying scenario indeed.

Misapplying Ricardo's theory, I'd say, since anyway all our western border states despite their prosperity have an apalling gender ratio, perhaps female refugees can be allowed to come over and granted refuge in some empty home in Haryana or Rajasthan, eh?

The paki male population would need some solid ikhwan treatment.

Indic Minorities trapped in TSP should be anyday welcome, of course.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 07 Sep 2010 18:22

RajeshA wrote:The discussion on dealing with Pakistani immigration to India can perhaps be x-posted in the "Managing Pakistan's failure Thread"!

Thank you!

That thread's title itself is oxymoron...

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 07 Sep 2010 18:24

^^^Minornitpick. Its not 'oxymoron' but 'redundancy'. 'Pakistan' and 'failure' needn't both occupy the same sentence since one implies the other, always and everytime.

thayilv · Post by **thayilv** » 07 Sep 2010 18:34

Actually, I think that Indic minorities should stay put where they are in Pakistan as much as possible. That region pre-independence had a fairly large proportion of Hindus/Sikhs (correct me if I'm wrong 20-30%). They should be supported by GOI and given incentives to make a resurgence in the region. This way we can ensure that NW India does not spin away from us again.

IMHO ofcourse....

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 07 Sep 2010 18:36

Hari Seldon wrote:^^^Minornitpick. Its not 'oxymoron' but 'redundancy'. 'Pakistan' and 'failure' needn't both occupy the same sentence since one implies the other, always and everytime.

what with reading all this B.n.s thread and what not, forgetting my english..

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 07 Sep 2010 18:37

But "managing" Pakistan is a pig-e-moron.
"Reconstructing" Pakistan using B2s and Kala Pani is more apt.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Sep 2010 19:16

Dilbu wrote:While Karachi slowly burns
It is a typically American conceit to believe that every problem has a solution. Accordingly there are still those in our foreign policy circles who believe that with the right aid and incentives, we can “fix” Pakistan. Indeed, there would be nothing better for U.S. interests than a stable and prosperous Pakistan. But this is a pipe dream. We have sunk billions of dollars in foreign aid into the country with no results. The status quo is miserable, and the trend lines are even worse. Pakistan is broken, and realistically there is nothing else for us to do but grimly watch as it unravels bit by bit along its frayed edges.

Good perspective. I was thinking same. The Predictioneer's Game-theory should have some limitations.

USA's materialistic world-view forces them to view every scenario as a equation of self-interests and try to solve it thru materialistic means (including war). I am glad that they are playing all these games with the land of pure honey, milk and raisins.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Sep 2010 19:34

Brad Goodman wrote:Just thinking out loud over the baki migration to India in case of eventual implosion of current paki state.

My thoughts...

Is Talibanization of Pakistan in Indian Interests?

Refugee Issue
There is a very high probability of a refugee crisis developing in India’s western borders during late transformation phase of ITP (2014-15). It is highly probable that the refugee population is of two types – The RAPE class and religious minorities. Based on past behavioral patterns, the RAPE class will receive overwhelming support from Indian WKK-brigade (Wagha Kandle Kissers) wile the religious minorities will be seen as an economic and social burden on India by the Indian ruling class. Taking their history, behavior, and actions in Pakistan into consideration the motives and beliefs of RAPE class will be highly detrimental to Indian values, democracy, and pluralism. The RAPE class must be denied entry and access into India against the conventional wisdom of WKK-brigade.

Based on Bangladesh freedom movement and Talibanization of Afghanistan experiences, it is safe to assume that at least 15-20 million refugees will try to cross into India thru its western borders. These people will receive significant opposition and harassment from bordering Indian states Gujarat, Rajastan, Punjab, and Haryana, whereas there is fair chance that Kashmir valley separatists welcome some of these refuges on religious grounds for future maneuvers. India’s internal political fissures will be exploited by WKKs in all the border states to enhance their vested interests.

It is in the best interests of India to seal off Indian borders and contain any future refugee situation to af-pak region. One strategy is to support internal independence movements so the refugees see little need to move to India. Balochistan and Sindh regions offer great value in this regard, provided India offers generous financial and water resources under UN auspices. An alternative yet risky strategy would be for India to use UN to occupy a small area within ITP and declare it a demilitarized zone (DMZ) for refugees.

In all the possibility an impending refugee crisis will be a game changer vis-à-vis India. It is in India’s best interests that the Indian defense and political leadership prepares a well-rounded strategy to contain and support ITP refugee flow to serve its agenda.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 07 Sep 2010 19:35

At least 17 dead in Kohat blast

KOHAT: At least 17 people were killed and over a dozen wounded following a powerful blast in Police Line Colony of Kohat on Tuesday.

The blast was so powerful that it demolished several houses and smashed windowpanes of nearby buildings.

The death toll could rise as several people were trapped in the debris of collapsed houses.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 07 Sep 2010 19:46

^ Not even Fridin.Keep it up.You land of the impure oops pure.Let the whole world see your impurity oops purity.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 Sep 2010 19:49

we should welcome flood displaced pakistani hindus, christians and sikhs and resettle them in kashmir valley, afterall the locals will have no problem with more 'pakistanis' in their 'hood, no?

others (i.e. talibanic tendencies) can be held in camps between bikaner/jaisalmer and the border for processing

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Sep 2010 19:58

^ Why Christians if I may ask. Secondly, how do we know a person is of talibanic tendency, by the length of his beard?

I have a better idea. Welcome women and female children of all ages. Change Hindu marriage act to accommodate them. Others can remain in Pakistan and fight a holy war against the great satan!

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 07 Sep 2010 20:01

"Opinion: While Karachi slowly burns" Is totally an anti India editorial.

Its an editorial to sell out India to the Porkies. Its a sales Pitch for the Porkies. Why aren't y'all being our Biatch. We can together fk with India if only you would suck our @#$@#! (Pardon the language). That's the gist of that editorial.

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 07 Sep 2010 20:03

The easiest solution for GOI is to build more fences, electrify them and mine them if necessary. In short make it amply clear to abduls from across the border that crossing the IB is worse option than staying put in their pind.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 07 Sep 2010 20:13

At least 17 dead in Kohat blast

Moves to 21

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&source ... uTODbLEE5A

archan · Post by **archan** » 07 Sep 2010 20:18

Manny wrote:"Opinion: While Karachi slowly burns" Is totally an anti India editorial.

Its an editorial to sell out India to the Porkies. Its a sales Pitch for the Porkies. Why aren't y'all being our Biatch. We can together fk with India if only you would suck our @#$@#! (Pardon the language). That's the gist of that editorial.

You've showered them with money, aid, written off their debts, not done much about their gaining nuclear capabilities and proliferating them, and even then you've been unable to make them your proverbial "biatch". What more can you do?
Do you think "handing on a platter" a nation like India is that easy? call the porkies whatever, not all of them are stupid to fall for it.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 07 Sep 2010 20:36

Brad Goodman wrote:The easiest solution for GOI is to build more fences, electrify them and mine them if necessary. In short make it amply clear to abduls from across the border that crossing the IB is worse option than staying put in their pind.

And that is as far as GoI can safely go without opposition or its own Congress MPs crying foul. Quarantine.

Imagine a Congress-led GoI filtering refugees based on religion as suggested in some posts above - it is a clear case of religious discrimination.Period.

Immdly after that policy is announced, the likes of HRW, TI, WWF , UN, UNICEF, FCUKI , TGIF, SHTI will all make a huge issue of it.
Madame Suzanne Roy would then suggest that an armed refugee struggle is valid given this blatant discrimination and pose for a photographs.
An essay will promptly appear in the Guardian titled "Listening to the f@rT$ of grasshoppers - the case for PAkistani refugees ".
MMS will then say that PAkistani refugees have priority over Indian resources and go back to sleep.
B.Dutt will make a trip to the refugee camp an make a passionate appeal with a malnourished kid in the background.

.....but I digress.

Get real guys. Not happening.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 07 Sep 2010 20:39

Dilbu wrote:While Karachi slowly burns

As the Doctor and others have mentioned, this article clearly lays out that USA uses TSP to counterbalance India. But one thing the guy doesn't say, or misses is that TSP is willing to gubo to any length provided US delivers India. Now if one looks at US-CIA/TSP-ISI terrorist mischief in Punjab and Kashmir, and in general, US diplomatic stance of equal equal even in the face of brazen TSP terror, it is clear that US is prepared to deliver India, no skin off its back, but it has not happened. That means one of 2 things: 1) USA will not go the full length in delivering India and this pains TSP no end, or 2) USA tried its very level best through subgterfuge, indirect sponsorship of terror through its TSP and Khalistani proxies, but the resilience of mother India won the day.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 07 Sep 2010 20:51

Can people ease up on the naked bigotry? Its kinda sad and distasteful.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 Sep 2010 20:53

^^^ the US tried, but probably not wholeheartedly. it tried much harder with Cuba, et al. they would have delivered us as collateral damage in the great anti-soviet offensive. however, since that finished, they dont prize delivering us to porkies as being more beneficial than twisting porkie gon@ds harder to get what they want. porkies are still milking the old recipe for as long as foggy bottomers still know it by heart. soon the old timers will retire, and india's trading relevance will be more important than keeping porkies happy

long game under way

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 07 Sep 2010 21:01

Rishi wrote:Can people ease up on the naked bigotry? Its kinda sad and distasteful.

What are you talking about? Please elaborate?

biswas · Post by **biswas** » 07 Sep 2010 21:06

CRamS wrote:
Rishi wrote:Can people ease up on the naked bigotry? Its kinda sad and distasteful.
What are you talking about? Please elaborate?

I know right, there's certain lines which people are crossing here.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 07 Sep 2010 21:15

Hari Seldon wrote:^^^ The refugee spillover into India is a worrying scenario indeed.

Misapplying Ricardo's theory, I'd say, since anyway all our western border states despite their prosperity have an apalling gender ratio, perhaps female refugees can be allowed to come over and granted refuge in some empty home in Haryana or Rajasthan, eh?

The paki male population would need some solid ikhwan treatment.

Indic Minorities trapped in TSP should be anyday welcome, of course.

You are right Hari ji.Indians can take care of pakjabi females.Pashtuns will take care of their males(for which they are famous).

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Sep 2010 21:18

wrt the psycology that the people of Pakistan seem to be going through these days.
The people of Pakistan are either illiterate or illeducated - I refuse to believe that there is actually an educated section in that society, and if there is, it is in small enough numbers to be elevated to the status of an 'endangered species'.

Pakistanis seem to be highly depressed by the way the powers that be in Pakistan have let them down at each step. They seem to be depressed by the economic hardships, the corruption, lack of basic amenities - electricity, water, food, hospitals, lifesaving drugs etc.

They seem to be going through with the usual phases of the grief reaction that I think Dr Shiv saar would know about (Denial, rage, bargaining, ultimate acceptance). They have a mixture of denial and rage that is plain for everyone to see. I think that H&D forces them to not see the obvious at this point-that the powers that be, the elites, the army and its agencies, and the feudals, have royally screwed the mango paki. They indulge in outrageous conspiracy theories (Bargaining + Denial) to somehow explain the going ons and pin it all on external forces. The theories get even more colurful, mixing all possible nemesis and events in one single mish-mash, until they seem laughable to the outsider, but plausible to the grief striken pakistanis. The thing to note here is that the pakistanis know in their hearts of hearts, that the nations whom they consider their nemesis or enemies, have a valid reason to hold a grudge against Pakistan because of the actions of the pakistani leadership

This psychological state is one or two or even three steps up the ladder to ultimate acceptance. It would be interesting to see what the mango abdul does when there is ultimate acceptance. I personally think there will be a revolt, that'll be triggered by some seemingly trivial event.

Now there are several groups - politicians, intel agencies, jihadis, who are playing to position themselves as the leaders when the revolution comes. Each has put forward their format - the Netas curse the army - even openly, but in coded language; the agencies are busy showing that the army is the only cohesive institution left in that country, and the jihadis are selling them the islamist dope, talking of the khilafat and sharia. But it seems that the powers that be probably realize that revolution is inevitable.

Revolution will also be associated with secessionist movements, because the other provinces blame the punjabis for all the problems. There is a very valid reason for that belief considering that the punjabis have moved in to corner all the resources, development, and jobs for themselves, and are using the other provinces as sources for raw material without giving back enough in retrun. NWFP provides the pashtun cannon fodder soldiers, Balochistan the oil and the gas, and now gawadar, Sindh is the traditional gateway to the world via Port Qasim in karachi, and the mohajir intellectuals there. Now they have discovered that POK, gilgit and balistan has mineral wealth, so that area has been virtually handed over to the chinese to mine and use as they please so that their army can make some more money.

Ultimately, it is possible that no matter how much the 3.5 friends support the facade of nationhood in Pakistan, a complete collapse and revolution is around the corner.

India must understand this fact now - Pakistan is no longer a nation that can peacefully co-exist with india. Given the long border that India shares with it, and the fact that destroying India remains the raison d'etre of the pakistani armed forces, a stable and prosperous pakistan is NOT in india's best interests.

Pakistan as a nation state will have to be dismantled and made more manageable, if India (and the region and the world) ever wants to fully develop without unnecessary obstacles in the way. Pakistan is rapidly becoming a mortal threat from a security risk to India.

JMT

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 07 Sep 2010 21:26

CRS,

I'll let Rishi speak for himself, but I would surmise that liberal use of pejoratives like "ROP" or "ROPers", referring to Islam/Muslims, could be what he is referring to.

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 07 Sep 2010 21:30

How did we miss this?

Paki minister wants Obama to take the title of Amir-ul-Momineen.

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news- ... ulMomineen

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Sep 2010 21:42

Rangudu wrote:CRS,

I'll let Rishi speak for himself, but I would surmise that liberal use of pejoratives like "ROP" or "ROPers", referring to Islam/Muslims, could be what he is referring to.

Probably this:

Why Christians if I may ask

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Sep 2010 21:53

Gagan wrote:
Ultimately, it is possible that no matter how much the 3.5 friends support the facade of nationhood in Pakistan, a complete collapse and revolution is around the corner.

India must understand this fact now - Pakistan is no longer a nation that can peacefully co-exist with india. Given the long border that India shares with it, and the fact that destroying India remains the raison d'etre of the pakistani armed forces, a stable and prosperous pakistan is NOT in india's best interests.

Pakistan as a nation state will have to be dismantled and made more manageable, if India (and the region and the world) ever wants to fully develop without unnecessary obstacles in the way. Pakistan is rapidly becoming a mortal threat from a security risk to India.

JMT

Interesting analysis Gagan. One possibility as things head in that direction is a desperate attempt to provoke something. Somehow - I get the feeling that the increased infiltration attempts and "stone throwing mobs" in Kashmir are part of that - or a prelude.

This is the time to warm up the Brahmos batteries and feed the coordinates of the houses and palaces of the army brass, Dawood and the grand poobah of the Lashkar e Randi, Hafiz Saeed.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 07 Sep 2010 22:28

Gagan wrote: Pakistan as a nation state will have to be dismantled and made more manageable, if India (and the region and the world) ever wants to fully develop without unnecessary obstacles in the way. Pakistan is rapidly becoming a mortal threat from a security risk to India.
JMT

Gagan,

Good analysis. The challenge is to nail down the cost and benefit of one state versus many.
I am finishing up my short essay will post it in Manage thread. However, the key is that even
GOI at this point does not seem convinced that a multi-state solution offers benefits, the
question is really if and when the cost to support one state become too much.

Another point, when TSP finally moves to bargaining, India (due to its predisposition) may accept peace too quickly. This is the inherent risk in what is to come. What would be prudent is to let the patient fail at bargaining and come to terms with reality. That will need some very large cojones on part of the GOI leadership.
Paarkalam as periavar would say

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Sep 2010 22:31

shiv wrote: Probably this:
Why Christians if I may ask

If this is the reason, my apologies Rishi-ji. Couldn't resist saying that as I want TSP's 3.5 friends to take some responsibility for their actions in sub-continent.

On the other hand, my alternative strategy is 400% secular, just allow wimmen-folk onlee.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Sep 2010 22:34

Yes saar, the pakistani power center is getting desperate at the situation there. Things are rapidly detrioriating, and there are just no means, financially, institutionally to even stop the decline, let alone lead the path to prosperity.

I don't think there is any will remaining. None what so ever amongst the politicians who seem to be resigned to the fact that no matter what they do, the faujis are going to upsurp them. There are so many things that the faujis just can't do, and so they won't allow any one else to do either.

Pakistan is waiting for its day of deliverence, their intellectuals have said so. The troubles in J&K seem to have been re-energized this year, and infiltration is up. Pakistan is ready for another embroglio to happen with India so that six months or so might pass.

Possible major terrorist attack on the horizon at the minimum.

I think they want a convergence of troubles in J&K, the maoist attacks, other problems to keep India busy internally so that they might try and pass this current crises. They are scared that India might try and fish in the muddied waters there.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Sep 2010 22:43

Pulikeshi wrote:
Gagan wrote: Pakistan as a nation state will have to be dismantled and made more manageable, if India (and the region and the world) ever wants to fully develop without unnecessary obstacles in the way. Pakistan is rapidly becoming a mortal threat from a security risk to India.
JMT
Gagan,

Good analysis. The challenge is to nail down the cost and benefit of one state versus many.
I am finishing up my short essay will post it in Manage thread. However, the key is that even
GOI at this point does not seem convinced that a multi-state solution offers benefits, the
question is really if and when the cost to support one state become too much.

I am trying to put some numbers behind this logic for past few days. One reason why GOI is wary of a fragmented TSP could be the possibility of non-state actors crisscrossing fragmented-TSPian borders. I will do some calculations and put together my thoughts on this for peer review and comments.

Added later: The nuisance-sum of the fragmented parts could be more than the original-nuisance?

Best strategy is to conduct a controlled demolition. But that would require support from at least one of the 3.5 friends. I have a feeling that the willing candidate would be KSA

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Sep 2010 22:46

More than KSA, it could very well be the US and China as well.

All three have supported Pakistan for several years. China shares a border with it (at NWFP no less!) and with POK. China might contribute as they have done in the past by simply staying away from trouble.

The US wishes the entire anti-US jihadi problem would just disappear and vanish.

Who knows, if a momentum builds up, there might be many parties willing to join in.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 07 Sep 2010 22:49

shiv wrote:
Interesting analysis Gagan. One possibility as things head in that direction is a desperate attempt to provoke something. Somehow - I get the feeling that the increased infiltration attempts and "stone throwing mobs" in Kashmir are part of that - or a prelude.

This is the time to warm up the Brahmos batteries and feed the coordinates of the houses and palaces of the army brass, Dawood and the grand poobah of the Lashkar e Randi, Hafiz Saeed.

That Shiv Ji would be one of the best post's for today, not for any Jingoistic feeling but for deeper reason's that discerning people here can make out.
JMT

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 07 Sep 2010 22:55

Kindly indulge me for a moment. I might amuse you. Pakistan is like an ex-girl friend, a psychopathic one. Guy (India) had to break up because it was just unsustainable relationship. He married a average looking,hard working- middle class girl.She could have got the same deal but she did not take it. She had way too much ego as everyone praised her tall fair figure (36-26-38 and 176 cm tall). She was egotistic and obsessive. By Obsessive I mean she had to show everyone that she was better than the guy and prove the guy wrong. She would blame everything wrong in her life on the guy.She slept with her 3.5 boy friends who showered with lots of gifts and often tried to harm the guy. She was under the impression that she was smart and taking everyone for a ride and harming the guy. She never realized that it was her who was getting romped left right and center and will be trashed end of the day when they are done with her.
As a final act, she started to cut herself so that 3.5 BF's would come to her rescue. They did come. She was put in a hospital. She begged them to kill the guy and his family else she would commit suicide. For a moment, the 3.5 BF's thought about it. Unfortunately, they came to know that she has AIDS! They tried a couple of advanced experimental treatments spending lots of money. It was just too late. She was in a advanced stage. Doctors gave two options. Continue her in the ventilator and spend more money on untested experimental drugs,hoping for a miracle OR pull the plug.
The 3.5 BF's realized they did have lot of fun with her but it was time to put a stop. They made an arrangement with the doctor to pull the plug. It had to look as if the guy was involved. So, they ring him and invite to the hospital. When the guy comes because he is so naive and sentimental,they set him up for pulling the plug and charge him with murder. The guy ends up behind the bars.
Moral of the story: Do NOT go near the death bed of your enemy even if it is humanitarian.

If you are still reading,Thanks!
Altair

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Sep 2010 23:00

^ Good one

James B · Post by **James B** » 07 Sep 2010 23:03

^^What an Analogy Altairji

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 07 Sep 2010 23:08

Could have made more anecdotal but I am not a novelist

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 07 Sep 2010 23:15

^ Great piece of work Altair.

Vivek_A · Post by **Vivek_A** » 07 Sep 2010 23:16

Rishi wrote:Can people ease up on the naked bigotry? Its kinda sad and distasteful.

second that.

It's time someone came out and said it. Are the admins ok with this?