J & K news and discussion

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abhishek_sharma
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J & K news and discussion

Postby abhishek_sharma » 15 Sep 2010 02:52

Link to last thread:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4268&start=4000


Background

Jammu & Kashmir: Self-Determination, Demands for a Plebiscite and Secession:
Examining the Contradictions

by Dr. Maharaj Kaul (b. Srinagar, Kashmir)

http://india_resource.tripod.com/kashmir.html
Last edited by abhishek_sharma on 15 Sep 2010 02:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby abhishek_sharma » 15 Sep 2010 02:52

Omar to skip all-party meet

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article642899.ece

Party will not keep mum if decision was averse to our demands'

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby kittoo » 15 Sep 2010 03:03

While discussing AFSPA at my college forum, today I encountered this same age old- 'Whats the difference between you and them?' (after i said that the only deficit in valley was 'tolerance deficit' for other faiths and hard stance, even one with bullets, should be taken.). While I dont mind personal attacks all that much, it disturbs me that people refuse to see whats obvious, that there is indeed a religious problem too. While I must say that slowly people have started taking interest in what I say on that forum and my support has increased, but why is it so that to say that Kashmir is a religious problem, people say that I want to get them killed cause they dont believe in the God I do? How are these two connected? If such is our attitude that we shoot the one who tries to point the obvious that the problem is religious, how are we ever going to solve any problem that is religious? Its even more disturbing that these people wont see facts, even when studying in such prestigious institutes etc, and will keep harping the same old line that I am extremist, hater of other faiths etc and even this that our Armymen are no saints and they rape, kill, murder etc, especially when empowered with the 'draconian' AFSPA etc. Sure they are no saints but hell lot better than others. Still we should tie their hands not of others? Of those who actually kill our own soldiers?
I posted a reply there but this just wont go out of my mind.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby VikramS » 15 Sep 2010 03:08

kittoo:

Where is this college?

Any time they say that "you want them to get killed" make sure you let the know that anyone who lets 8-10 year old kids throw stones, is motivated by a hate ideology which is beyond normal behavior. It is deviant behavior only designed to exacerbate the anger. An eight year old knows very little to make a judgement about right and wrong.

Also ask them, who do they think the Army people are? Very likely there are their former school friends or neighbors.

Ask them why they have started assaulting Sikhs and asking them to recite the Kalima? Or why do the protests happen on Friday and why do they carry Pakistani or Islamic flags...

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby RajeshA » 15 Sep 2010 03:09

kittoo,

try using the word "Kashmir Valley Wahhabis" instead of Kashmiri Muslims!

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby kittoo » 15 Sep 2010 03:17

VikramS wrote:kittoo:

Where is this college?

Any time they say that "you want them to get killed" make sure you let the know that anyone who lets 8-10 year old kids throw stones, is motivated by a hate ideology which is beyond normal behavior. It is deviant behavior only designed to exacerbate the anger. An eight year old knows very little to make a judgement about right and wrong.

Also ask them, who do they think the Army people are? Very likely there are their former school friends or neighbors.

Ask them why they have started assaulting Sikhs and asking them to recite the Kalima? Or why do the protests happen on Friday and why do they carry Pakistani or Islamic flags...


Its IIT Bombay, unfortunately I guess. Earlier too here we had a little discussion about that and Gurus had given me quite a few tips to encounter such persons.
VikramS sir the problem isnt that I dont give them a healthy dose of facts or history. I totally do. The problem is that all they write in reply, though rather eloquently sometimes, is that I am an extremist who hates Muslims, I want to get them killed, I am an extremists, demagogue, army is no saint, army not above civilian govt in any condition, hate wont solve anything....and finally, they start telling me to read some history, to read some political science and what not, no matter if it was me who was pointing facts. I also posted about deganga riots 2-3 days back there. So a new argument has been bought that the forum should not be 'politicized' and people like me should take my hate elsewhere.

RajeshA wrote:kittoo,

try using the word "Kashmir Valley Wahhabis" instead of Kashmiri Muslims!


I use kashmiri sunni muslims, reminding them that others like Gujjars or Shias or Buddhists are not revolting. But I dont really think it matters for those who have made their mind that I want to kill all Muslims anyway. An interesting sentence they used- 'you want an utopia that you think is only for a few specific communities'.

As of now I I have left it to other mods to decide, even though I am a mod too there, that whether I should keep posting or stop the 'politicization' of that forum.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby RajeshA » 15 Sep 2010 04:04

Kittoo,

Don't use the word Sunni or Muslim. That would get you nowhere in India. Use 'Wahhabi' instead. That way you can make any assertion you want, and the others are compelled to prove that those who are rioting there are not Wahhabis. That would be difficult for them.

If you use the word 'Wahhabi', neither Muslims nor Hindus would get agitated, because most would not identify themselves with the word.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Muppalla » 15 Sep 2010 06:05

x-posting the Telegraph article link from previous thread as this article is real summary of "vats govin on " .

viewtopic.php?p=940745#p940745

I want to reiterate that in the CCS (Armed Forces chiefs are part of it),the team has take a very hawkish posture and the doves are drowned. Hope they stick to their guns for indefinite period. Its just 80 dead and that is not even a pigeon drop in the ocean.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby VikramS » 15 Sep 2010 06:32

Kittoo:

Bud hang in there. But do not get overwhelmed. Spend a fixed amount of time each day (say 30 minutes) and then forget about it.

(1) When someone asks you to read History/PS: Tell them that you have learnt about history and political sciences from gurus who have a real understanding of the issue 10x times what they have. Call their bluff directly; challenge them to debates about SPECIFIC issues instead of general hand-waving. You will enough material to counter their "depth of knowledge" (sic).

(2) When they label you "want utopia for one community" ask them which community are they referring to: The Hindu Pandits who have been driven out from the valley, the Sikhs whose hair is being cut and and who are being forced to recite the Kalima, or the Muslim Gujjars who have been declared non-Muslims by Geelani or the Buddhists whose ancient centers of learning in Taxila etc lie in ruins.

(3) Whenever they call you extremists, call them low-self-esteem, self-loathing losers, who feel intellectually superior by dissing the people who are dying to defend them. Ridicule their lack of knowledge about the history of India, and let them know that those who forget history are condemned to repeat it. Challenge them repeatedly to argue about specific facts instead of steam-rolling you by calling you an extremist.

(4) Irrespective, post links to profiles of bravery of IA folks who die while trying to reduce collateral damage. Post links to how the TSPA deals with the Taleban (using F-16s, artillery) or how the Chinese deal with dissidents (Tinnamen square tank pictures are worth more than a million worlds) or how Americans dealt with Fallujah. Contrast the rules of engagement as practiced by the Indian Army with other forces and highlight how professional and compassionate it is.

(5) Whenever you make an argument post links to different web-sites around the web to substantiate your claim. Make a link with what is happening in AfPak and Kashmir; send traffic to Zaid-Hamid's Gazwa-e-Hind videos etc. Even if the low-esteem losers diss you, there will be many others who will quietly learn what is happening.

Remember your objective is not to convince the self-loating losers, but to educate the quiet guy who minds his or her own business. The losers live in a self-congratulatory wonderland and will not change.

This video by Salman Rushdie is a good starting point where he clearly points out the there is no tolerant Kashmiri Islam anymore but Saudi-Wahabbi Islam in Kashmir
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7uhNYu7 ... re=related

Most of the losers when confronted with facts, will try to change the subject. Force them to stick to it or ask them if it is P2C2E for them.
Last edited by VikramS on 15 Sep 2010 06:56, edited 3 times in total.

Sanjay M
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Sanjay M » 15 Sep 2010 06:47

Where's Islamic Rage Boy in all this?

I think he's been replaced by his little brother:

Image


Little jihadi looks a lot like Little Superstar:

Last edited by Sanjay M on 15 Sep 2010 06:50, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Dipanker » 15 Sep 2010 06:49

Govt wants all parties to okay Kashmir package

The government will try to get as many political parties as possible to agree on measures to be taken to restore normalcy in Jammu and Kashmir at Wednesday's all party meeting. High on the agenda is diluti-on or partial withdrawal of the controversial Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA), to which the BJP remains opposed. A discussion on ways in which to restart the political process in the strife torn state will also figure prominently.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Pranav » 15 Sep 2010 07:40

kittoo wrote:I use kashmiri sunni muslims, reminding them that others like Gujjars or Shias or Buddhists are not revolting. But I dont really think it matters for those who have made their mind that I want to kill all Muslims anyway. An interesting sentence they used- 'you want an utopia that you think is only for a few specific communities'.

As of now I I have left it to other mods to decide, even though I am a mod too there, that whether I should keep posting or stop the 'politicization' of that forum.


When anybody makes such ad-hominem accusations, it is good to ask them to point out the precise sentence in which you have advocated "killing of all Muslims" or "utopia only for specific communities".

Usually that shuts them up, because they are just talking out of their musharrafs.

Also, I would suggest you not get cowed or intimidated, hang on in there in the forum, replying incisively and logically.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Muppalla » 15 Sep 2010 07:44

Changing AFSPA: Air chief cautions against dilution

NEW DELHI: The Centre’s attempt to script a political package for Jammu and Kashmir is proving to be difficult, with the security forces cautioning the government against any step that would dispirit men in uniform and undermine their efforts.

Air Chief Marshal P V Naik, also chairman of Chiefs of Staff Committee, sent out a clear message that the forces consider Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) critical to their operations in troubled spots.

His comments came in the backdrop of demands for its repeal and a proposal before the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) to partially revoke it in Jammu and Kashmir. The differences within the CCS — defence minister A K Antony expressed his reservations over the proposal at Monday’s meeting — prompted the prime minister to take it up after the all-party meeting on Wednesday.


In his interaction with reporters here, Air Chief Marshal, the seniormost armed forces officer in the country, said the defence forces needed all the legal help while discharging their duties in the disturbed areas. “I believe that a soldier involved in performing his duty deserves all the legal protection that he can get. I am sure the government is sensitised to this particular problem and whatever decision they take, I am sure it will be the correct one,” said the Air Chief Marshal.

It is also a tough political call for the government as parties like the Bharatiya Janata Party have been vehemently opposing the proposal. A section of the Congress is also not too sure about the profitability in expending its political capital through this controversial move.

That the government would weigh its pros and cons before taking a decision on the issue was clear when Mr Antony said that a final call would be taken only after taking all major parties on board. “Important decisions have to be taken after carefully assessing all aspects. The CCS had a long meeting on Monday. We felt that we should take all major parties into confidence before taking a decision,” Mr Antony told reporters. {what kind of lemon can be sold to BJP (unless BJP is sold out for money) to convince the dilution of AFSPA }

The Centre cannot be unmindful of the continuing violence in the Valley. The state government on Tuesday placed entire Valley under curfew after the spiral of violence left 17 people dead and over 70 injured on Monday. There have also been reports about protesters defying curfew in Baramulla where two people were injured in clashes with the police. For the first time since the Kargil War 11 years ago, air services to and from Srinagar have been suspended. There will be no flights for the next three days.

{There is no need for concern. Let the valley burn forever as long as armed forces are not losing their men in uniform, this is actually a no issue anymore. GOI should start doing reverse and start reducing goodies. }



It will be really interesting to see if a section of the Government can go against its own party, main opposition party, a large section of babus and mainly the entire Armed forces. It will be a new precedence and hopefully better sense will prevail. Otherwise there is a potential of many unforseen events in India.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Jarita » 15 Sep 2010 08:08

The latest is that the remaining Sikhs in the Kashmir valley are being killed/bullied as well. Their shops are being boycotted, some are missing for days, mosques are making announcements to go after the Kafirs.
For those who can read punjabi

http://newspaper.ajitjalandhar.com/

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby abhishek_sharma » 15 Sep 2010 08:08

V R Raghavan on AFSPA
Don’t blame the law

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Don-t-blame-the-law/681580

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Pranav » 15 Sep 2010 08:25

Sanjay M wrote:Where's Islamic Rage Boy in all this?

I think he's been replaced by his little brother:



Some other beauties:

Image

http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2010/ ... ransom.htm

Observe how the faces are contorted with seething rage. Imagine the brainwashing.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Prem » 15 Sep 2010 08:34

="Muppalla
{There is no need for concern. Let the valley burn forever as long as armed forces are not losing their men in uniform, this is actually a no issue anymore. GOI should start doing reverse and start reducing goodies. }
It will be really interesting to see if a section of the Government can go against its own party, main opposition party, a large section of babus and mainly the entire Armed forces. It will be a new precedence and hopefully better sense will prevail. Otherwise there is a potential of many unforseen events in India

This is the key to getting Valley Wahabi Jihadi Balls in tight vise grip. Let it burn to ashes and let these lazy buggers work hard, earn and make it if they can . Just the fact that Army Chiefs have to make public statement should be enough for the sold out part of GOI to shut up. If they dont ,then their betrayal of country would be open for all Indians to see. Valley Wahabi Jihadi activites can provide perefect pretex to prioritize and neutralize internal threats and weaknesses.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby rajum » 15 Sep 2010 08:42

Kitoo ,

The leftist media in the country , through their coverage of the recent events in Kashmir , have ensured that the blame falls on our security forces rather than the leadership in Kashmir which was sleeping when Kashmir was burning. The media harping has given us the classic case of a 100 lies which will be taken up over a single truth .

Coming back to Kashmir , Where were our Intelligent agencies / RAW / IB / HM sources who should have picked up signals on the eve of ID. They should have nipped it in the bud . I would have to give it to the Pakis who have been more Chanakian than Indians and have ensured that this has become a people's uprising ( atleast the way the media is potraying it )

Anyway , would have to wait for the outcome of the All party meeting on Kashmir .....................

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Thomas Kolarek » 15 Sep 2010 09:03

How foolish ? Indians can settle in any part of the World but not in J&K. Break that wall first - Article 370 must go.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby shiv » 15 Sep 2010 09:07

Replying to a post in the old thread:
viewtopic.php?p=940558#p940558
SwamyG wrote:That is because Gujarat is not considered a disputed territory like J&K. Gujarat does not get a special status in the Indian Union. It is just another evil regular state like the scores of others.


Saar - I put it to you that this is an own goal. I someone starts disputing something that belongs to you (say your house or car), would you then go ahead and accept that its ownership is disputed?

What is disputed in Kashmir? Not J&K. Only POK and Aksai Chin are disputed. I think this is something that even Indians are not clear about.

If Pakistan disputes Gujarat tomorrow, as it disputes Kutch, would you be as eager to say Gujarat is disputed as you seem to be in calling J&K "disputed". I am sorry to see this confusion saar.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby ramana » 15 Sep 2010 09:52

Knock it off. Enough dragging Indian topics as self-goals.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Sachin » 15 Sep 2010 10:14

kittoo, I can very much understand your predicament as I have been through this myself. Most of the folks who I had such debates had a few things in common (so much so I could find a pattern in them).
1. Most of the folks had studied in good schools, and were academically good too. Their friends also remained were of the similar type. I have seen more political insight from the so called "dumbos", who still can judge what a spade is, and call a spade; a spade.
2. They also came from families of communist sympathisers or were part of commie student unions. For them what their family members told, or their union leaders told were God's words.
3. Many of them did not have any connection with anybody in uniform (be it from an NCC cadet, to the Police and to the Army). They were also mainly from areas which have not seen any major wars or insurgency. Obviously they were clueless on how armed forces and other security agencies worked ;).
4. Most of them had one thing in common. They were hard-core idealists :). At times, I felt that I am moving around with a large group of Mahatma Gandhis firmly believing that non-violence, and various other measures which would get you killed/maimed was some kind of great quality to have.

Off late, I generally keep a ready reckoner of events (in Kashmir, or parts of West Bengal) ready and just point out them to these Mahatma Gandhis and leave it at that. As they say "you cannot awaken a man who is acting as if he is asleep, you can only wake up a person who is actually sleeping".

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Anindya » 15 Sep 2010 12:31

The latest is that the remaining Sikhs in the Kashmir valley are being killed/bullied as well. Their shops are being boycotted, some are missing for days, mosques are making announcements to go after the Kafirs.
For those who can read punjabi

http://newspaper.ajitjalandhar.com/


Jarita - can somebody create specific translations of the articles on the link above...

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Sanku » 15 Sep 2010 14:13

There is one advantage of having a babu as PM, when he decides to do chai-biskoot, he does chai-biskoot like no ones business...

http://news.rediff.com/news/live-commtry.html

September 15, 2010, 13:57:
Top 5 takes from the PM's address at the all-party meet:
1. The only path for lasting peace and prosperity in Jammu and Kashmir is that of dialogue and discussion.
2. I was shocked and distressed to see young men and women -- even children -- joining the protests on the streets. While some of these protests may have been impulsive or spontaneous, it cannot be denied that some incidents were orchestrated by certain groups.
3. Meaningful dialogue can happen only in an atmosphere free from violence and confrontation. Discussions can take place only if we have calm and public order.
4. We are ready for dialogue with anybody or any group that does not espouse or practice violence.
5. We have told the state government to restore peace and public order in order to create conditions congenial to a dialogue process. The central government will provide all possible assistance in this task.

:mrgreen:

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby shiv » 15 Sep 2010 15:14

kittoo wrote:but why is it so that to say that Kashmir is a religious problem, people say that I want to get them killed cause they dont believe in the God I do? How are these two connected? If such is our attitude that we shoot the one who tries to point the obvious that the problem is religious, how are we ever going to solve any problem that is religious?


Kittoo you are facing a problem that many of us have done in the past.

I have a very rarely updated blog that has two articles relevant to your question. I have found that it is better to take the attitude that you are an antitheist and hate god. Then nobody can accuse you of promoting your own god, removing one argument that is always thrown at you in such cases. The other article deals with the reasons for the takleef that Hindus have in being critical of Islam

I will merely link my earlier thoughts, well known on this forum on here
Organized Religion is fascism
The "Dhimmi-Liberal"

Sorry this is OT for the thread - it only constitutes my reply to your query.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Sachin » 15 Sep 2010 16:16

Sanku wrote:Top 5 takes from the PM's address at the all-party meet

Wow !!! So there is nothing new, and no changes planned for. And as per MMS the trouble makers have to stop rioting, get a semblance of peace before we start the discussions (again) ;). Let us see how the trouble mongers react to this proposal.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby krisna » 15 Sep 2010 18:18

^^^^
In addition to what Sanku mentioned from the rediff article
1) They agreed that the Constitution of India provides ample scope to accommodate any legitimate political demand through dialogue, civil discourse and peaceful negotiations.
2) The visit of the all-party delegation would be facilitated by the Ministry of Home Affairs and the Government of Jammu and Kashmir.likely chai biskoot sessions after the violence ends onlee- AFSPA to continue till then :wink:
3) The feedback received from the all-party delegation would form an important input into the Government's evolving response on various issues relating to Jammu and Kashmir.. economic package on hold till then

Fly in the ointment--4) PDP chief Mehbooba Mufti: "Unconditional dialogue between both separatists and the Centre. Crackdown should be stopped, curfew should be lifted. We need to sit together with the separatists; we are a democracy after all. Prisoners should be released. Central government should take a decision on AFSPA, which should be real and concrete, not cosmetic." She refused to comment on whether Omar Abdullah should step down as CM saying it was between the NC and the Congress. :(( :((
September 15, 2010, 16:55:

5) A smiling Farooq Abdullah, Senior Leader, National Conference, leaves the meeting venue: "We are not disappointed. In fact, we are satisfied with the all-party meet . We had a very good meeting. The delegation will now visit J&K to meet the people, see the situation, and then act. The PM also praised Omar."
September 15, 2010, 12:24:
6) PM puts responsibility squarely on Omar Abdullah's administration. some massaging the egos for public consumption onlee

party breakdown wrt AFSPA
BJP, Sena not in favour of AFPSA withdrawal.
NC, PDP, CPI, CPM(M), JD(U) and SP favour partial withdrawal of AFPSA.
The armed forces, meanwhile, want complete legal cover for their troops in the Valley.


7) Hardline Hurriyat Conference leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani today said the all-party meet in New Delhi is unlikely to help improve the situation in the Kashmir Valley as Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's speech did not touch on the core issue of Kashmir. sorry you are being sidelined by other hardliners. retire or kick the bucket
8 ) The meeting, attended by UPA Chairperson Sonia Gandhi, top BJP leaders L K Advani, Nitin Gadkari, Sushma Swaraj, PDP leader Mehbooba Mufti, National Conference chief Farooq Abdullah and leaders from various other parties, has been convened to discuss steps to address the situation in the state. No omar as he will be put on the spot

one reason for this, political observers say, could be because all-party meetings traditionally tend to result in a stalemate and precious time is lost, with not much to show for in the end.(rediff article statement)

relax for now and enjoy the show.

Battle now for the TSP is to keep the J&K on the boil till ombaba comes to India.
Hope the defence forces weed out more jeehards and show them the 72 asap. 8)

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby sum » 15 Sep 2010 21:27

Kashmiri Pandits meet Antony, oppose AFSPA withdrawal

Amid demands for withdrawal of Armed Forces Special Powers Act from their state, Kashmiri Pandits on Wednesday opposed any such move and asked the Centre to take the views of all shades of opinion of the state before deciding on any major issue related to the state.

A group of displaced Kashmiri Pandits met Defence Minister A K Antony to highlight their concerns over the worsening situation in the state and press their demands.

"We have requested the Defence Minister that AFSPA should not been withdrawn as there are special circumstances in the Jammu and Kashmir [ Images ]. The Act is a must for them (security forces)," said Utpal Kaul, a leader of Panun Kashmir, an organisation of the community.

The members expressed their concern over the situation in the state and asked the minister to find a solution to end the present crises. The delegation also impressed upon the Centre to consult all shades of opinion of the state, including people of Jammu, Ladakh, Kashmiri Pandits, Gujjars and Bakerwals before deciding on any major step like the AFSPA withdrawal.

"Interest of India [ Images ] is being undermined by vested interests for political reasons. The situation should be dealt with in totality," said another delegation member Ramesh Manvati.

He said Kashmiri Pandits are opposed to any kind of dilution in the powers of the armed forces who were playing a crucial role in the state for the country.

And these are the kind of people our GoI will keep at arms length while hobnobbing with snakes like the Hurri-rats etc..

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 15 Sep 2010 21:41

you have to hand it to the kashmiri wahabbis
they have been played for fools by paquistan, dragon and unkil for so long
and they still dont get it
oh well, if its cannon fodder they want to be...

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby jamwal » 15 Sep 2010 22:10

I was talking to a sadhu who lives in a Hindu math inside a heavily guarded section of Srinagar. They run a free homeopathic clinic in premises. Even with all this hyped up tamasha going on all around, Kashmiri muslims still flock to the clinic for treatment. Seems kind of funny

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby chetak » 15 Sep 2010 22:15

jamwal wrote:I was talking to a sadhu who lives in a Hindu math inside a heavily guarded section of Srinagar. They run a free homeopathic clinic in premises. Even with all this hyped up tamasha going on all around, Kashmiri muslims still flock to the clinic for treatment. Seems kind of funny



If you see any Hindu charitable hospital any where in the country, there are a lot of minorities who make use of the services.

Why? your guess is as good as mine.

jamwal
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby jamwal » 15 Sep 2010 23:03

In other places, hatred for the group running the charity work is not as naked as it is here.

chetak
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby chetak » 15 Sep 2010 23:19

jamwal wrote:In other places, hatred for the group running the charity work is not as naked as it is here.


The minorities have their own charitable institutions which they do not seem to patronize as well as they do some the Hindu charitable ones.

I am a bit puzzled as to why this should be so.

I don't thing that any hatred for any group is involved here.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Bade » 15 Sep 2010 23:40

A group of displaced Kashmiri Pandits met Defence Minister A K Antony to highlight their concerns over the worsening situation in the state and press their demands.

Why don't we hear more from Kashmiri pandits and other hindus and their opinions ? Aren't they as resourceful in getting their views highlighted in the media on a regular basis all across the world. I have met a few who are doing well and one would think this community has deep pockets too. Am I wrong ?

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby ramana » 15 Sep 2010 23:55

Hindusthan Times report...


Problem is Delhi


The problem is Delhi
Samar Halarnkar, Hindustan Times

September 15, 2010

‘Oi, ruk ja oi! Idhar aa.’ (You there, stop! Come here.) Dawn had broken over Srinagar’s eerie, empty streets. My faulty strolley rattling along, I was trying to walk to a tourist centre, where I was told I might find a government bus bound for the airport. My confident cab driver — who claimed, the previous day, that he had seen much worse — glumly told me he couldn’t make it out of his front door. At 1 am, I heard this announcement: “Please do not move out of your houses at night. You may be shot.”

So, at 5.45 am, I stopped and watched a six-man patrol of the paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force approach me. Armed with Insas automatic rifles (cocked, I noticed), heavy anti-riot padding and helmets with grills, they looked menacing. I pride myself on not scaring easily, but I tensed just a bit.

“Where’s Rajbagh?” one asked. The patrol was lost. I wasn’t going to be detained or thrashed for violating curfew.

After bus journeys through barrages of stones, I managed to make it to the last flight out of Srinagar and reach Delhi by 6 pm that day, before all commercial operations were suspended for the first time in 11 years.

I was very lucky. The curfew hasn’t been lifted since I left on Monday, and I did not endure any of the random humiliation, slaps or beatings that most Kashmiris experience at some time. A friend’s husband, the chief of bureau of a national television channel, was recently made to get out of his car and sweep the streets — this on a day there was no curfew. Even ambulance drivers ferrying the wounded aren’t spared.

“Collective punishment” is a buzzword that every Kashmiri now uses, a strong, ever-present alienating factor, largely unrecognised in Delhi.

Wherever I went, whomever I met, I found present humiliations and past wrongs combined seamlessly to create a surge of anger more pronounced than ever before. Stone-throwers, government officials and professors; the classes and the masses, in varying degrees, are now beginning to speak the same language.

Each new death, every humiliation on the streets, each day of curfew draws in more people — and entraps the Indian government in a vicious cycle of narrowing options, making the job easier for a bunch of new radicals. Add the trumping of Kashmir’s traditional and tolerant Sufi faith by a darker, more intolerant Islam — helped in some measure by Delhi’s choking of democratic values and institutions — and it is not hard to see why the separatists India knows so well, like Mirwaiz Omar Farooq and Syed Ali Shah Geelani, are in danger of being eclipsed.

It promises to get worse. As I write this, the all-party meeting in Delhi has utterly failed to address the Valley’s realities. Yesterday’s separatist will now be a moderate, even as the day before’s hero is today’s villain.

I bring to your attention a statement that, at first glance, fits easily into the current stream of anti-India pronouncements: “It is a small matter what happens to me. But it is no small matter that the people of Jammu and Kashmir suffer poverty, humiliation and degradation… my voice may be stifled behind the prison walls, but it will continue to echo and ring for all times to come.”

Familiar? Yes, but this was a 1961 pronouncement by Sheikh Abdullah, the ‘Lion of Kashmir’. Despite being Jawaharlal Nehru’s friend, his sentiments were then regarded so extreme that he spent more than 20 years in jail. Once eulogised, Abdullah (his son is Farooq, grandson Omar) is today reviled on the street as the man who sold out to India.

So, at every opportunity, they attack his mausoleum alongside the Dal lake. “If we do not protect it round the clock,” a senior police officer observed wryly, “the Sheikh would have been dug out of his grave by now.”

Home Minister P. Chidambaram — not particularly liked by his colleagues but perhaps the only minister who recognises how quickly Kashmir is slipping away — has, in Cabinet meetings, stressed India’s history of broken promises in Kashmir. That is a rare, welcome recognition of reality, but he has little support.

It is also important to recognise that Omar Abdullah, heralded as India’s new hope for Jammu and Kashmir when he was elected the chief minister in 2008, could never connect with his people or his colleagues, and showed no indication he cared about Kashmir’s long-festering wounds.

But, in the middle of this crises, it is churlish to lay all the blame at his door. On Kashmir’s streets, Omar is not the issue. Nor is his pet theme, the controversial Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA). It doesn’t affect the current generation because the army isn’t deployed in civilian areas, as it was during the militancy of the 1990s.

If so why was he pursuing that non-issue except to score points? He has managed to make a non-issue into a major issue. I submit its all linked to the BO visit.}

Yes, demilitarisation is a very important symbolic gesture, but the underlying grouse of the Kashmiri is with unaddressed aspirations, of promises broken over 63 years, of the daily humiliations, all of which are blamed directly on Delhi.

{What broken promises? The Kashmiris get more money per captia from Delhi than any state in India. That it never gets to them is their failure to elect the right leaders as those they elect siphon it off as their hafta or nazrana like the Mughals and Nizam.}

Disaffection is now so deep and wide that whatever the Cabinet announces can only be a starting point. Resolution and reconciliation cannot come from a meeting. It must be a process, which is already faltering.

Every delay drags India towards a precipice. If we fall over the edge, expect the current unarmed unrest to turn into an armed insurgency. If that happens, a bloody suppression will follow.

Kashmir, and India, will then be doomed to a future worse than the present — and the past.



Very evocative rant by a Dilli Billi.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby ramana » 16 Sep 2010 00:18

Pioneer Op-Ed

Seize the opportunity
September 16, 2010 12:42:46 AM

The Pioneer Edit Desk

All-party initiative can, and must, succeed

It is immaterial as to whether the views expressed at Wednesday’s all-party meeting in New Delhi, called by the Prime Minister to discuss ways and means of dealing with the spiralling separatist violence in the Kashmir Valley, were entirely uniform. Differences in perception are bound to be there in a democracy and, in a sense, the multiplicity of views helps in taking a considered decision after weighing all possibilities. What is important is that the meeting concluded with all parties appending their approval to a joint statement making it abundantly clear that while doors are open for disaffected individuals and organisations to sit across the table and discuss their grievances and demands, whatever they may be, within the ambit of the Constitution, no concession shall be granted to appease those who believe they can use violence to force their views on the Government.

Democracy cannot be held hostage by stone-pelters and their mentors in Srinagar and Islamabad. Second, the decision to send an all-party delegation to the Kashmir Valley for wide-ranging interaction with various sections of society and use the feedback to formulate the next step by the Government is both correct and judicious. This should have been done long ago, instead of wasting time on trying to come up with ‘out-of-the-box’ ideas and pandering to either Islamabad or Washington, DC, if not both, as this Government has been doing ever since it came to power in 2004. The Prime Minister’s efforts to strike a deal, any deal, with Pakistan at the US’s behest to ‘settle’ the ‘Kashmir issue’ without taking the nation into confidence have come a cropper and he should admit that this too-clever-by-half approach has contributed to the worrisome situation that prevails. Starting now, he must desist from traversing the path to unmitigated disaster which has been skilfully charted by the Americans in consultation with the Pakistanis.

Having said that, it merits reiteration that the commendable all-party initiative, which includes the till-now recalcitrant PDP of Mufti Mohammed Sayeed, will succeed where the UPA regime’s unilateral — and, some would say, partisan — efforts to tame the belligerent separatists failed if every participant demonstrates equal and matching sincerity. There is no percentage in trying to score political points at this stage when the most important task for the political class is to retrieve the Kashmir Valley from the brink of disaster and restore a semblance of law and order in its towns before the more substantial measures to ensure good governance can be implemented. That would be a long-drawn process and it would be futile to expect an immediate turnaround. But there is no reason to either feel frustrated or give up without exploring every possibility to make the angry young men fighting pitched battles with security forces see reason. Democracy has the capacity to absorb a lot more than what has been witnessed; that capacity is further enhanced when all stake-holders are on the same page. This is not the time for mutual recrimination; it is definitely not an occasion for self-doubt and self-flagellation. Every challenge also offers an opportunity. The challenge posed by the separatists offers an opportunity to India’s collective leadership to prove itself.



A lot said and unsaid. Very diabolical.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Prem » 16 Sep 2010 01:05

="ramana"]Pioneer Op-Ed
Seize the opportunity
This is not the time for mutual recrimination; it is definitely not an occasion for self-doubt and self-flagellation. Every challenge also offers an opportunity. The challenge posed by the separatists offers an opportunity to India’s collective leadership to prove itself.
A lot said and unsaid. Very diabolical

No diabolical but practical, this is an oppertunity to bury the K issue for ever. All it require is political strength at the centre. The weak link/s must be removed from power circle in Delhi if they undermine the security forces.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby ramana » 16 Sep 2010 01:15

No my remark on diabolical is not about the op-ed but about how things are working out.

Looks like Omar and parts of INC in Delhi had worked some gambit to be played during BO's visit. The calling for removal of non-issue AFSPA etc were to establish Omar as the new Abbot of the Messiah for the autonomous state of J&K.
TSP and others plan was to link it to the intifida movement by using stone pelters to create a East Timor situation at same time . So as to provide justification to Indian masses about how they shouldnt be using non Gandhian methods. Recall the HT johlawala article in that vein linked above.

So into the breach the PRC rushes in its personnel inot Gilgit to partake of the feast. Some one lits match and the others run away with the torch!

This is the diabolical thing.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby ramana » 16 Sep 2010 01:27

Omar is at a minimum incompetent if not anything more...

http://www.newsinsight.net/archivedebat ... recno=2039

C O M M E N T A R Y

Let Omar go
The country must accept that perfect peace can never come to J and K, says N.V.Subramanian.

15 September 2010: If the idea is not to unravel India by giving up Jammu and Kashmir to Pakistan, how is that state to be kept peaceful with the minimum of popular opposition? "Guided democracy" is the only option, which in truth is little different from the democracy available to and practiced by other Indian states. The prefix "guided" is still necessary because it nullifies the self-determination option for J and K which is irrelevant for the other states of the Union.

Guided democracy or for easy understanding democracy has been in practice in J and K since at least the first free and fair election in recent times was held there in 2002. Without coercion, people voted in that and a subsequent election and won their own popular governments. The last poll got a National Conference-Congress coalition to power and the chief-ministership was entrusted to a young and hopefully dynamic Omar Abdullah.

For whatever reason, Omar Abdullah has choked up on his job. He has not been able to translate the goodwill of voters into any vision for transforming the state. In very real terms, he has been a political failure. When a politician fails politically, there can be no redemption for him.

Having failed politically, Omar Abdullah is making excuses to cover up for his failure. One of his excuses is that the Armed Forces Special Powers' Act (AFSPA) is coming in the way of his political vision for the state and that it must have to be either partially or totally withdrawn or diluted. Unfortunately, Omar has found support for his specious demand from one section of the Central government (home minister P.Chidambaram supports Omar or did; defence minister A.K.Anthony and finance minister and former foreign and defence minister Pranab Mukherjee are opposed) and from a part of the so-called public intellectual community which is clueless about security matters. The military naturally is aghast at this bizarre and dangerous focus on AFSPA when the target for some tough talking and perhaps adverse action should be Omar Abdullah.

Clearly, AFSPA is not the issue in J and K. Those that argue, including anonymous Union home ministry officials, that AFSPA has not brought peace to J and K, miss the point entirely. Peace can never be brought wholly to J and K, as the first paragraph of this piece clearly says. At the most, opposition can be kept to a peaceful minimum. AFSPA is one of the enablers to keeping this minimum peace. The army knows this very well.

In the mid-nineteen nineties, when P.V.Narasimha Rao took the first solid steps to pacify J and K, the army was very clear-headed about its role, and there is nothing to suppose that it is otherwise today. The army forthrightly said that it would reduce the threshold of violence in J and K but could not guarantee one hundred per cent peace. What it could not guarantee had to be made up by politics. Like it or not, it was politics, democratic politics, guided democratic politics to be sure, that would restore as much normalcy as was ever possible in J and K.

You could consider guided democracy as an opportunity and do the best you can for J and K. Of the recent chief ministers, perhaps only Ghulam Nabi Azad appreciated the opportunities in such a constrained reality. On the other hand, the PDP pandered to the separatists while being in permanent election-campaign mode whereas Omar Abdullah tried to hide his own incompetence by pointing faults at the closed architecture of the guided democracy. Didn't he know when accepting the job that he was signing into a guided democracy which came with its appurtenances, including the AFSPA?

The hard fact is that there is no miracle solution for Jammu and Kashmir, short of letting it go, which is impossible. There has to be more of the same. Anyone who has the capability to maximize the delivery in a guided democracy would have to be found for J and K, and clearly, Omar has outlived his utility. If his father, Farooq, is willing for the job, without conditionalities, that is fine. Or else, the state should be given a spell of President's rule, until someone more able and amenable comes along.

If the idea is not to unravel India by letting J and K go, then the country has to get used to a certain amount of popular opposition in the state. If the message goes to the state that India is united and firm about keeping the peace in J and K, the current violence will die down. If the Centre does not panic and keeps its head, and finds a strong successor to Omar Abdullah, the situation will calm.

The Centre must robustly also signal that it will not go against military judgment in J and K. In nineteen-ninety, the army saved J and K from secession with all the consequences that it would have brought. It would be to our national peril to forget that and to be moved by the juvenile delinquency of Omar Abdullah.



I find PC's stance very intriguing off late. His playing to some other gallery? Which is it?

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Airavat » 16 Sep 2010 04:09

J&K Gujjars to GOI: don't ignore us
Jammu, September 15 – Eshfaq-Ur-Rehman Poswal ,President Akhil Bhartiya Gujjar Maha Sabha (ABGMS) J&K Chapter, urged upon Center & State Governments to take into confidence the Gujjar community while discussing Kashmir issue in any fora so that interest of gujjar community are not jeopardized and national interest are protected

Addressing the press conference today in Jammu Eshfaq-Ur-Rehman said that the prevailing political scenario in J&K state has intimate direct unfavourable bearing on this poor Gujjar community. They have their own distinctive language and culture. But they are forced to feel ignored and deprived of rights and justice in the present turmoil when the valley is burning due to ill conceived political vested interest of unislamic behaviour by separatists.


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