J & K news and discussion

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Arjun
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Arjun »

vina wrote:
Sidhant wrote: Vina since when did hoisting the national flag on Indian territory became a polarizing issue?

I already did. It happened the day when BJP made it a partisan issue and brought it's hate baggage into the issue.
Question for mods - Isn't this trolling by Vina? This guy is obviously going to bring in 'hate baggage of the BJP' in every second post whether or not it is relevant to the issue under discussion.
Sidhant
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Sidhant »

vina wrote: I saw the slogans on TV yesterday. "Jhanda Wahin Lehrayenge!" .. Doesn't it hark back to "Mandir Wahin Baneyange "? Isn't it Deja Vu ? The riot and rath politics back in a very similar form and similar verbiage?
This is better than congress actions of "Pakistaan se Jameer haar jayege"..... "China se jameen haar jaayege" and finally "Kasmiri sepretists se Jameen haar jaayege"..... Three cheers for Congress and its supporters...
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Pranav »

Rudradev wrote:
somnath wrote: Are you saying all Instruments of Acession had the same schedule? any references?
Yes.

http://www.oocities.com/capitolhill/con ... 9-211.html

This is the standard template for ALL Instruments of Accession that princely states had to sign when acceding to India, per the Indian Independence Act of the UK Parliament, 1947.

...

Which, again, is a far cry from your assertion:

The one signed by Hari Singh "agreed to accede to the Dominion of India on condition that the state retain its own constitution and autonomy in all matters except defense, currency and foreign affairs"


Which, apart from being completely factually inaccurate, gives the impression that there were very many different "ones." :D
Excellent work, Rudradev ji.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^Guys, chillax.

Vina garu and Theo sahib are gr8 posters with awesome contributions in other threads of a more technical bent.

I'd humor their positions, disagree with civility etc, rather than get worked up, emotional, antagonize them over any single issue and risk losing their splendid contributions to the forum only.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Arjun »

vina wrote:I saw the slogans on TV yesterday. "Jhanda Wahin Lehrayenge!" .. Doesn't it hark back to "Mandir Wahin Baneyange "?
Jhanda wahin lahrayenge == mandir wahin banwayenge !!!!!!
Jhanda and Mandir are equally sectarian symbols !!

Divine logic :rotfl:
SwamyG
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by SwamyG »

arnab wrote:Flag waving patriotism has its moments I’m sure, but it also has its dark side. In the US a flag waving patriot murdered a Sikh gas station attendant after 9/11. In Australia – flag waving drunks terrified immigrant families in Sydney on ‘Australia day’ in 2009. The underlying motive in all these cases was similar to one being espoused here viz. – to ‘take back’ the country from the people who were (perceived) a threat to their way of life (shades of take back J&K and stop its sellout). I’m sure they were being patriotic in their way though I would be surprised if any mature government would sanction such behavior.
Yes everything has a dark side, and I agree flag waving can be seen as dark based on the context. Your analogy is bad here. BJP is not waving or raising flag to say drive out "illegal Bangaladeshis"; they want to hoist flag in a State that is part of the country. There is one parallel though, from your analogy, BJP wants to "take back" the State from the Separatists and Pakistan's hands.
Similarly, there are many families in the US deep south who still fly the confederate flag and dream of a Confederacy, but I doubt the government of the day tries to score a point by trying to hoist the stars and stripes on their back yard (and are not really accused of being a sell out or a joint love maker with confederate racists). This is because a government (if it is serious) has to consider substantive issues rather than emotive ones.
Another bad analogy. Would the families in "deep south" object to if USA flag is raised in, say, a public school? Say if Republicans wanted to hoist the American flag in a school or police station in deep south find objection from a ruling Democratic President? Would the President plead before the nation requesting political parties to be not divisive? You can flip the political parties; and one can easily bet one's salary that neither political parties would even think in their remotest dream to object the flying of the national flag even in "deep south".

I note that a poster had made the point that fellow kannadigas may take offence if Tamils from across the border tried to hoist the flag in their state. I endorse his point (I remember kannadigas being seriously annoyed with God when Dr Rajkumar died of ....
I thought Theo had the UPite hoisting flag in TN example. Ramana tried to put a full stop in us discussing that point. Ramana, correctly, took the gist of Theo's post and made it a simple one-liner. Theo agreed with the direction. If we Indians get mad and take offense over "outsiders" hoisting flag in the state we live in, then there is something seriously wrong with India as it exists now.

You guys are really clutching at straws to make your points. People are emotion, right. They riot for so many other reasons too. Chennaites rioted when MGR died. When Karunanidhi dies, there will be looting. There is an element of goondas who thrive in these climates.
So yes, while I believe that flag is a potent symbol of patriotism but I also remember that often ‘patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel’
[/quote]
That is a famous quote of Samuel Jackson. Boswell, his biographer explains it is not for general patriotism, but for pretend, fake or false patriotism. And, in this case you are accusing BJP of being scoundrels. Why? They are playing politics. Sure, I will accept that. Maybe it is to prove a point. Or maybe the want to consolidate their vote-banks. Let us, for the moment, say BJP is doing this for all the selfish and wrong reasons. Now why is INC trying to stop the flag from being raised?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Abhi_G »


In an emotive sense, IMO opposing the flag is similar to opposing hindi. They were both supposed to provide a link through our diversity. But either of these does not provide India with what Rabindranath Tagore had written so long ago - 'Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high'. Only economic freedom will help us achieve that. Which is why I would like to live in 2047 rather than 1947.
[/quote]

Behind the veil of neutrality and fake intellectual conceit through quoting Rabindranath's "where the mind is without fear...(chitta jetha bhoyshunyo, uchcha jetha shir)", the pseudo secular marxist propaganda machine works. Tagore did not live long enough to see partition. It is therefore safe to quote him out of context. The mask of neutrality falls when there is mention of one jaati of Bharat storming into Bengaluru and planting their flag - creation of divisions where none exist, injecting feelings of victimhood. After all India is not one nation but a hodge podge of multiple nations. Direct copy book adaptation of marx's thesis on India. So much for the tall claims of intellectual superiority. Pretense at best.

Unfortunately, none of the liberals survived the partition in 1947. Fake liberals surviving in 2047 is a long shot by most optimistic accounts.
Last edited by Abhi_G on 25 Jan 2011 09:26, edited 1 time in total.
Hari Seldon
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Hari Seldon »

Meanwhile, from twitter on the results of a CNN-IBN poll:
Is the BJP playing politics by its decision to hoist the Tricolour in Srinagar? Yes29% No71% (IBNLive)"they cldnt cover it up
Cynical politics or not, the issue has reverberated and found agreement, engagement and endorsement with a good section of the educated middle class, seems like.

BTW, am sure Gandhi's dandi march and namak satyagraha would have seemed cynical to chatteratti back then also, who knows? Sometimes things start cynically and soon spiral out of control as the issue becomes larger than the messengers. Sometimes. Its too early to say that has happened now. Time will tell.

I'm betting on the nation forgetting this incident and moving on like happened with the amarnath agitation. And INC-NC will reap an electoral dividend from even the Jammu and Ladakh LS seats. The politics of agitation and confrontation has typcially always benefited the INC and the communists except one time in 1989 when it benefited the heirs of the BJS.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by vina »

Arjun wrote:Question for mods - Isn't this trolling by Vina? This guy is obviously going to bring in 'hate baggage of the BJP' in every second post whether or not it is relevant to the issue under discussion.
Dude. Wake up and smell the coffee. The BJP DOES carry a terrible terrible hate baggage , and a history of baiting minorities ,especially Muslims. And if you haven't noticed, the overwhelming bulk of the population in the Kashmir valley (some 9X% ?) are Muslim.

That baggage is EXTREMELY relevant here. That hate baggage , coupled with the shock troop like threats and exchanges with the separatists is hugely combustible mixture and a tiny spark (even some stone pelting or a terrorist attack or worse) will see this escalate into a massive inferno that will burn for weeks and months.

The best thing for the BJP is to call off this cynical exercise, join the J&K govt in the flag hoisting and come back as the good guys after having made the point.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by svinayak »

Enjoy 1947 again 8)
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Sidhant »

arnab wrote:
Sidhant wrote:This is what Google Uncle Tells me "When Naveen Jindal won a court case in the Supreme Court of India to give Indians the right to unfurl the flag publicly". Can you give me one reference where the constitution of India denies an Indian Citizen to hoist the national flag on a national day in a respectful manner.
As far as I recall, Navin jindal won the right for Indian citizens to fly the flag in their own homes (which was earlier illegal).

Article 343 of the Indian Constitution: " Official language of the Union - The official language of the Union shall be Hindi in Devanagari script. The form of numerals to be used for the official purposes of the Union shall be the international form of Indian numerals."

I'm not sure Constitution has to deny specific issues. It probably says nothing about denying freedom to distribute cocaine. Doesn't mean you can do it though. (because it comes under maintenence of law and order)
Navin jindal won the right for Indian citizens to hoist the national flag publicly. When did my home became public? This is what Wiki uncle tells me "Prior to 2002, the Flag code of India did not permit flying of the Flag of India on non governmental institutions. In 2001, a case was filed against Naveen Jindal for flying the Flag of India atop his company building. He said that he was inspired by his American friends displaying their flag during his college days in USA and he believed that flying the national flag should be the right of every Indian. He took the case to the Delhi High Court and the Supreme Court of India and won both cases. The Supreme Court ordered the Government of India to set aside a committee to look into this matter. Finally on January 26, 2002 (India's Republic Day), private citizens were allowed to fly India's flag inside and atop their buildings and institutions."

Regarding official language both Hindi and English can be used Link, and this is from Govt of India site.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

Vivek Raghuvanshi, BJP does have some KM support in Kashmir. Check the names of those arrested. Advise is good if followed by those giving.

The issue now is flag raising on Clock Tower/Ghanta Ghar in Lal Chowk. Its not any other thing. So focus.

Padgoankar was on Tiimes TV and saying BJP should mind the consequences. He doesn't spell out what they are. And also while asking for BJP to be reasonable he also accuses them in same breath. Looks like interlocutor wants them to persist.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Yayavar »

Venkarl wrote:I actually thank Vina, Somnath, Menon, Viv types....I was always neutral to both BJP and INC....but more the hate is harped against BJP...the more support is BJP gathering....knowingly or unknowingly...you have served BJP's purpose (not mine or any individual's)....bhadhaayi ho.
heh! moi? how come I'm in this "august" company? I have not posted on this issue so far :).
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by svinayak »

It is the 1947 club 8)
SwamyG
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by SwamyG »

Theo_Fidel wrote:To my mind the BJP is dividing India into 'patriotic/un-patriotic' camps. You can see the turmoil on this board with members accusing each other of supporting genocide, etc.

In the meantime the economy thread has generated a measly 20 posts in the last week. That in itself should tell you why you don't play with this particular fire. It will turn around and burn the BJP itself one day.
It is simply WRONG to accuse fellow BRFites or any other Indian of anything. I agree with you on that. Like I said earlier, in a free country people do not have to love their country, nor do they have to hate it. They can just lead their lives, be a productive or lazy citizen. I strongly denounce (as if what I say matters) any BRFite or Indian being called a supporter of genocide,

Theo saar...konjum ice more koodinga....but you do lace your posts with provocative IEDs :-)

BJP wanted the march and to hoist the flag. INC and others could have just allowed it to go.....no? I think INC added fuel to the mixture and they are into this politically as much as BJP is. So how is BJP raising a flag in J&K pushing some Indians into the un-patriotic camps, huh?

ps: I thought your grouse was this was all done by BJP, now I get it your actual problem is that the Indian Economy dhaaga is not moving fast :rotfl:
Last edited by SwamyG on 25 Jan 2011 09:53, edited 1 time in total.
Rony
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Rony »

Fitting reply to separatists
As usual, there is a needless hue and cry over the BJP's Rashtriya Ekta Yatra to unfurl the tricolour at Srinagar's Lal Chowk on Republic Day. While the other mainstream parties are describing the unity rally as a political gimmick, Jammu & Kashmir chief minister Omar Abdullah, who seldom misses a trick in playing to the separatists' gallery, has described it as 'provocative' and hence, a fitting case for imposing restrictions on the BJP activists from entering the state.

In our efforts to sound politically correct or be pragmatic, we more than often end up appeasing the Kashmiri separatists only to the detriment of our national interests. Kashmir is an integral part of India and the Constitution of India allows every citizen to hoist the national flag throughout the length and breadth of the country. In fact, the successful holding of the ceremony at Lal Chowk, in the heart of Srinagar, would be a fitting reply to the separatists, who are again boycotting Republic Day. By not allowing the BJP to hoist the tricolour, we are just strengthening the hands of those who challenge the unity of India.

Equally ominous is the suggestion that the BJP should attend the state's official function. Clearly, it ignores the crux of the matter. More than political parties and their cadres, it is about the right of every Indian to hoist the national flag in the state. Why do we need official ceremonies to do that? One fails to understand the logic behind this exceptionalism in relation to the state. Instead of imposing restrictions on BJP activists, the state government should take seriously its responsibility to protect citizens in exercising their constitutional rights.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Rudradev »

vina wrote:
Dude. Wake up and smell the coffee. The BJP DOES carry a terrible terrible hate baggage , and a history of baiting minorities ,especially Muslims. And if you haven't noticed, the overwhelming bulk of the population in the Kashmir valley (some 9X% ?) are Muslim.

.

Oh yes, I'm smelling it, and it smells wonderful.

For you see it's not just the BJP who carries "hate baggage". The Maino-Manmohan Cabal, after the murder of Laxmanananda Saraswati, after the framing and torture of Swami Assemanand, after Pigvijay's utterances on Karkare, Samjhauta and "Hindu terrorism as the greatest threat to the country"... is hefting some pretty heavy hate baggage of their own.

The Maino-Manmohan Cabal has a history of baiting Hindus. Who are the majority.

I will relish the compounding of this hate baggage the Cabal carries, when they team up with jihadi terrorists and secessionists to put a stop to the hoisting of the Indian flag on Indian territory by Indian citizens.

I look forward to the identification of Pigvijay and Rahul... that whisperer of anti-Hindu slander into the ears of his foreign masters... with the sort of scenes we are going to see tomorrow.

It smells damn good to me. The rank, putrid fear of the Maino-Manmohan Cabal, oozing out across the landscape of public provenance when they know that with the CWG Scam, Adarsh Scam, 2G Scam, Malegaon frame-up, Samjhauta frame-up, pro-Missionary muscle flexing, and rampant Hindu-baiting... they have come to a point of no return. They must face the consequences of their promises on J&K to Pakistan and the US one way or another. The precipice is steep. And they are rushing towards it, moving too fast to stop.
Last edited by Rudradev on 25 Jan 2011 09:41, edited 1 time in total.
Rudradev
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Rudradev »

Acharya wrote:It is the 1947 club 8)
Acharya, the Hindu of today is not the Hindu of 1947. That is what they should have realized in 1992. I am looking forward to another lesson being taught.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by nachiket »

viv wrote:
Venkarl wrote:I actually thank Vina, Somnath, Menon, Viv types....I was always neutral to both BJP and INC....but more the hate is harped against BJP...the more support is BJP gathering....knowingly or unknowingly...you have served BJP's purpose (not mine or any individual's)....bhadhaayi ho.
heh! moi? how come I'm in this "august" company? I have not posted on this issue so far :).
There's another poster "Viv S". Maybe you two should change usernames to avoid confusion. :)
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by arnab »

SwamyG wrote:they want to hoist flag in a State that is part of the country. There is one parallel though, from your analogy, BJP wants to "take back" the State from the Separatists and Pakistan's hands.

Another bad analogy. Would the families in "deep south" object to if USA flag is raised in, say, a public school? Say if Republicans wanted to hoist the American flag in a school or police station in deep south find objection from a ruling Democratic President?

People are emotion, right. They riot for so many other reasons too. Chennaites rioted when MGR died. When Karunanidhi dies, there will be looting. There is an element of goondas who thrive in these climates.

They are playing politics. Sure, I will accept that. Maybe it is to prove a point. Or maybe the want to consolidate their vote-banks. Let us, for the moment, say BJP is doing this for all the selfish and wrong reasons. Now why is INC trying to stop the flag from being raised?
Oh yes I'm not faulting the BJP when it tries to fly the flag on lal chowk - I'm faulting the fact that it is being ascribed as a patriotic act on BRF (and any contrary views are jumped upon as 'anti-national'). Here we are supposed to be analytical. As long as we all know that it is political act and so is the UPA's attempt to stop it. But if dispassionately analysed, I find hoisting the flag to be not particularly useful and will not achieve anything (best case) or increase the imagined (just clarfying otherwise people will again start wailing that I'm supporting terrorists) sense of grievence of a set of people (worst case).

Re US - South Carolina flies the confederate flag to this day. Neither Democrats nor Republicans want to take it down. Isn't it akin to alowing J&K state assembly to fly their own flag on 15th august? Is south Carolina seceding anytime soon?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/3 ... 95256.html
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by saket »

vina wrote:
Arjun wrote:Question for mods - Isn't this trolling by Vina? This guy is obviously going to bring in 'hate baggage of the BJP' in every second post whether or not it is relevant to the issue under discussion.
Dude. Wake up and smell the coffee. The BJP DOES carry a terrible terrible hate baggage , and a history of baiting minorities ,especially Muslims. And if you haven't noticed, the overwhelming bulk of the population in the Kashmir valley (some 9X% ?) are Muslim.

That baggage is EXTREMELY relevant here. That hate baggage , coupled with the shock troop like threats and exchanges with the separatists is hugely combustible mixture and a tiny spark (even some stone pelting or a terrorist attack or worse) will see this escalate into a massive inferno that will burn for weeks and months.

The best thing for the BJP is to call off this cynical exercise, join the J&K govt in the flag hoisting and come back as the good guys after having made the point.
This is not about the BJP. Its about the rights of the people to hoist the national flag in their own country. Being members of the BJP does not make them lesser citizens.

BJP workers are not even allowed to enter Jammu, let alone the Valley.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Arjun »

vina wrote:
Arjun wrote:Question for mods - Isn't this trolling by Vina? This guy is obviously going to bring in 'hate baggage of the BJP' in every second post whether or not it is relevant to the issue under discussion.
Dude. Wake up and smell the coffee. The BJP DOES carry a terrible terrible hate baggage , and a history of baiting minorities ,especially Muslims. And if you haven't noticed, the overwhelming bulk of the population in the Kashmir valley (some 9X% ?) are Muslim.

That baggage is EXTREMELY relevant here. That hate baggage , coupled with the shock troop like threats and exchanges with the separatists is hugely combustible mixture and a tiny spark (even some stone pelting or a terrorist attack or worse) will see this escalate into a massive inferno that will burn for weeks and months.

The best thing for the BJP is to call off this cynical exercise, join the J&K govt in the flag hoisting and come back as the good guys after having made the point.
Dude / Dudette (not clear from your name)-

1) Lets leave aside the question of whether you are true about the 'hate baggage' stuff - which is NOT relevant to this thread. I am happy to debate with you on a separate thread why INC is the #1 communal and divisive party in the country, but the point is this is OT here.

2) If you had taken a position on freedom of speech on the same basis (glad guys / gals like you don't get to make the constitution) - you would have probably made a very strong case for why freedom of expression should be allowed to only for some and not for others (obviously the BJP with its HATE baggage is not deserving of freedom of expression, right?).

3) Can you get it into your head that this is 100% NOT about any hate baggage of the past or otherwise? This is about a fundamental right that is very deservingly held above any other for some basic reasons ? The rest of the stuff is OT, and it would be of value if you could focus on the larger issue relating to the hoisting of the flag and what restrictions you think need to be based on such activity - we can then have a meaningful discussion on the consequences and benefits of your thinking?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by SandeepA »

Rudradev wrote:The rank, putrid fear of the Maino-Manmohan Cabal, oozing out across the landscape of public provenance when they know that with the CWG Scam, Adarsh Scam, 2G Scam, Malegaon frame-up, Samjhauta frame-up, pro-Missionary muscle flexing, and rampant Hindu-baiting... they have come to a point of no return. They must face the consequences of their promises on J&K to Pakistan and the US one way or another. The precipice is steep. And they are rushing towards it, moving too fast to stop.
Please add the Telangana mess to this list. For no matter which side we are on this issue the mess itself is a Kangress creation..the fires of which still threaten to douse a heartland state and economic hub of the country and handover another area on a platter to Marxists.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by SwamyG »

Hari Seldon wrote:^^Guys, chillax.

Vina garu and Theo sahib are gr8 posters with awesome contributions in other threads of a more technical bent.

I'd humor their positions, disagree with civility etc, rather than get worked up, emotional, antagonize them over any single issue and risk losing their splendid contributions to the forum only.
So you are saying one must always bow to them or any gurus all the time? Just because they are valuable in other threads? Come on Hari garu, it is unfair. Have you see Vina's tone in BRF? If some one disagrees with him, anthe. He will mock, ridicule or insult. He is bright and talented and will use all word power to assault the poster. It reminds me of another brilliant former member/admin with similar tactics. And funnily he is involved in a discussion that is highly emotive.

It is the way he argues with people that causes others to react. Did you remember the Telanga monitor thread? I think Vina and I were mostly on the same side of the camp; but the language he used there pretty much riled up members. That is no way to debate. Then he is as good or bad as BJP onlee :rotfl:

Theo saar is different, he is always calm and collected. He never hurls insults or mocks others. Yes, he does offer provocative thoughts, and I welcome them. But one can sit and talk with him. And agree to disagree.

Vina deserves what he gets - fire will evoke fiery repsonse, Not Theo, Arnab, Somnath, Menon S, Amit......these members have written well and debated well. And we should never call anyone anti-patriotic, scoundrel ityadi.

The responsibility is as much with him as others. I wonder why did not make a request to him as well? Sorry to put you on the spot. Don't bow to arrogance and intolerance please. Do not reward the bullies. They might be entertaining and pull in crowd, though.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by nachiket »

Rudradev wrote:The rank, putrid fear of the Maino-Manmohan Cabal, oozing out across the landscape of public provenance when they know that with the CWG Scam, Adarsh Scam, 2G Scam, Malegaon frame-up, Samjhauta frame-up, pro-Missionary muscle flexing, and rampant Hindu-baiting... they have come to a point of no return. They must face the consequences of their promises on J&K to Pakistan and the US one way or another. The precipice is steep. And they are rushing towards it, moving too fast to stop.
You forgot the anti-Sikh riots. Funny how the Congress is never accused of carrying anti-Sikh "hate baggage".
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by vera_k »

arnab wrote:Re US - South Carolina flies the confederate flag to this day. Neither Democrats nor Republicans want to take it down. Isn't it akin to alowing J&K state assembly to fly their own flag on 15th august? Is south Carolina seceding anytime soon?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/3 ... 95256.html
Wrong analogy IMO. South Carolina did secede at one point, but the secession was put down with use of force. The right analogy is letting the existing Pakistan flag fly in Srinagar after Pakistan no longer exists as a separate entity alongside India.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by vina »

Can you get it into your head that this is 100% NOT about any hate baggage of the past or otherwise?

Sorry. Is majorly about the hate baggage of the BJP. You cannot separate the BJP's persona from the specific message here.
This is about a fundamental right that is very deservingly held above any other for some basic reasons
Hmm, last I saw,the Indian constitution listed fundamental rights as freedom of speech, religion, property , life and other I don't remember, but I distinctly do remember that the right to hoist the flag anywhere was not listed as one .. :lol:

Even if it were, all fundamental rights are subject to reasonable restrictions (Subject to Public Health, Morality, law and order.. etc.. as stated I think) and I do think the threat of violence and disorder is a very valid ground to curb the exercise of such a right. 8)
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Muppalla »

nachiket wrote: You forgot the anti-Sikh riots. Funny how the Congress is never accused of carrying anti-Sikh "hate baggage".
Sikhs - who the hell are they. They also deserve the same as Kashmir Pandits deserve. Their main Golden Temple can be razed down to parking lot. Don't you understand simple logic. If it is INC then it is statemanship, national interest and everything. If BJP does then it is hate-baggage, facism, !@#@$@#$@#$
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by disha »

vina wrote:That baggage is EXTREMELY relevant here. That hate baggage , coupled with the shock troop like threats and exchanges with the separatists is hugely combustible mixture and a tiny spark (even some stone pelting or a terrorist attack or worse) will see this escalate into a massive inferno that will burn for weeks and months.
So what is OA and the CONgressis doing? Twiddling around with their thumbs? The wind could have been taken out of BJP's sail easily by OA calling for an all-party attendance to hoist the national flag (even at Lal-Chowk) and being the first one to hoist it and the rest sharing the mithai.

Regarding the hate part, you have garnered more by your off the cuff remark on the plight of the Kashmiri pandits. As for the BJP., any islamo-fascist or pseudo-sicular farts ., it is ther fault. So what's new there?
The best thing for the BJP is to call off this cynical exercise, join the J&K govt in the flag hoisting and come back as the good guys after having made the point.
Here is the logic as an 18 year old explained to me. In 2010., OA allows Pakistani flag to be hoisted up in Lal Chowk. In 2011, people are prevented from hoisting Indian Tri-colour at the same place. Ergo., Lal-Chowk belongs to Pakistan.

So what is INC doing to reassure Indians that J&K is indeed part and parcel of India? Beating up BJP to score political points? What a shame.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by nachiket »

vina wrote: I do think the threat of violence and disorder is a very valid ground to curb the exercise of such a right. 8)
Do you realize the inherent contradiction here? The "violence and disorder" in this case would be caused by people trying to stop those who are exercising their constitutional right to hoist the national flag. Not by the ones exercising the right.
And you are saying the correct response is to stop the people from exercising their right? Ridiculous.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by svinayak »

The Union Cabinet of India then amended the Indian Flag Code with effect from 26 January 2002, allowing private citizens to hoist the flag on any day of the year, subject to their safeguarding the dignity, honour and respect of the flag. It is also held that the code was not a statute and restrictions under the code ought to be followed; also, the right to fly the flag is a qualified right, unlike the absolute rights guaranteed to citizens, and should be interpreted in the context of Article 19 of the Constitution of India.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by saket »

vina wrote:
Can you get it into your head that this is 100% NOT about any hate baggage of the past or otherwise?

Sorry. Is majorly about the hate baggage of the BJP. You cannot separate the BJP's persona from the specific message here.
This is about a fundamental right that is very deservingly held above any other for some basic reasons
Hmm, last I saw,the Indian constitution listed fundamental rights as freedom of speech, religion, property , life and other I don't remember, but I distinctly do remember that the right to hoist the flag anywhere was not listed as one .. :lol:

Even if it were, all fundamental rights are subject to reasonable restrictions (Subject to Public Health, Morality, law and order.. etc.. as stated I think) and I do think the threat of violence and disorder is a very valid ground to curb the exercise of such a right. 8)
Who is threatening violence? The BJP/BJYM or the separatists? Instead of rounding up Yasin Malik and his cohorts and deporting them from Kashmir the BJP is being victimized.

All this while the threatening party, Yasin Malik is sitting pretty, grinning from ear to ear as he witnesses the abject surrender of the State and Centre and their bid to implement the threat issued by himself.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by disha »

arnab,

Regarding your Aus goon analogy., I was there when it really happened.

A real analogy to be compared to the above will be bunch of people on Aug 15 or Jan 26 land up in Goa and kick the "russians" around under the pretext of tri-colour.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Gagan »

Just for completion, I am sure this was posted here before:
A stone-pelter in Kashmir gets paid Rs 400 a week

I wonder how much a Pakistani Flag Hoister makes?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

The crisis got precipitated by Omar Abdullah panicking and claiming that raising the Indian national flag on Clock Tower in Lal Chowk will hurt the sentiments of the separatists and hence should not be done. He then went to Delhi and conferred with the cherub and here we are now. No one is telling how the separatists will feel bad if Indian flag is raised. Its not a symbol of conquest. Its a symbol of the nation to which Kashmir belongs. If the separatists feel hurt they have to say how does it hurt them so we can understand. Even the wise interlocutors don't tell us how this will hurt separatists. Aren't the interlocutors supposed to interlocute that is talk to both sides and not carry the briefs for the separatists? I am not going to tell the separatists to got TSP as that is curse which no one should bear.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by negi »

Vina ji has already digressed from the topic for as far as 'yatra' is concerned where does hating Muslim part come into picture ? As I see it he has clearly bought into the idea of those who argue on the lines of since BJP is involved lets add words 'communal', 'divisive' to every sentence we utter for it sells.

Actually you know what this over analysis of every issue on the lines of 'How would IMs percieve it' actually tells a lot more about the ones who blindly label everything BJP as 'communal and 'divisive' than the BJP itself.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by SwamyG »

arnab wrote: Oh yes I'm not faulting the BJP when it tries to fly the flag on lal chowk - I'm faulting the fact that it is being ascribed as a patriotic act on BRF (and any contrary views are jumped upon as 'anti-national'). Here we are supposed to be analytical. As long as we all know that it is political act and so is the UPA's attempt to stop it. But if dispassionately analysed, I find hoisting the flag to be not particularly useful and will not achieve anything (best case) or increase the imagined (just clarfying otherwise people will again start wailing that I'm supporting terrorists) sense of grievence of a set of people (worst case).

Re US - South Carolina flies the confederate flag to this day. Neither Democrats nor Republicans want to take it down. Isn't it akin to alowing J&K state assembly to fly their own flag on 15th august? Is south Carolina seceding anytime soon?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/3 ... 95256.html
1. You have the right to fault BJP, hopefully you provide good points supporting your case.

2. I do not agree it ALONE is a patriotic act. I am of the view that one can disregard national anthem, flag and other symbolic gestures and yet love the country. I used the simpler term "love" rather than the complex term "patriotic" as it is easier to understand and explain (if necessary). Some consider these symbolic gestures as a sign of love towards one's country; while others do not think one needs to express such love. I am fine with both. Each to his own. I am extremely liberal, when then I will conduct myself based on the situation on the ground. Though I do not think flag hoisting is necessary to express love towards the country, hoisting the flag in J&K has an added symbolic gesture. It is marking J&K as part of India. It is like animals urinating to mark their territories. India has to do everything in its means to hold on to J&K.

3. I do not think it is apolitical act. I do not have it being called politics or gimmicks either. This are vehicles through which democracy runs. INC and BJP both are playing politics. They are politicians, and that is what they do and ought to do. INC has taken unprecedented measures to halt the yatra and the flag hoisting. It is disturbing. Like I said, BJP is not throwing pork into mosques here.

4. Hoisting the flag is an important symbolic gesture. For people who do not care, it might not mean much. It is like people who are in non-ritualistic modes of worshiping gods thinking the rituals are just a waste. But the rituals means something to performers. And the external actors will see this ritual and realize a thing or two.

5. I am not sure, if it is any solace to you; but I do not think you are others do not love the country. To be honest, it would not bother me if you did not; as long as we are civil and have a good discussion. And my gut feeling is that most of the members think similarly too; it is just an emotional thingie and words get exchanged.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Gagan »

One thing that Congress I needs to understand here:

Omar Abdullah is actually going to become the winner in this. His ratings will only increase in the valley because he stood up against the "Hindooz" "The RSS", "The BJP".
Congress I is going to lose its electorate because of the emotions of nationalism coming into play here. The congress is trapped! They have to see this through and each statement and speech by the BJP leadership is resulting in losing electorate. BTW the BJP wallahs are 'martyrs' by now.

Now the only thing that can save the Congress is if massa pulls a bunny out of the wikileaks swiss bank accounts hat. And that list shows only the right wingers as bribe takers. A few low level congressi and leftists will be collateral damage onlee.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by nachiket »

ramana wrote: No one is telling how the separatists will feel bad if Indian flag is raised. Its not a symbol of conquest. Its a symbol of the nation to which Kashmir belongs. If the separatists feel hurt they have to say how does it hurt them so we can understand. Even the wise interlocutors don't tell us how this will hurt separatists.
Ramana ji, what is worse is that no one is asking why we should give a damn if the separatists feel bad about the Tricolour being hoisted.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Sidhant »

vina wrote: Hmm, last I saw,the Indian constitution listed fundamental rights as freedom of speech, religion, property , life and other I don't remember, but I distinctly do remember that the right to hoist the flag anywhere was not listed as one .. :lol:
Even if it were, all fundamental rights are subject to reasonable restrictions (Subject to Public Health, Morality, law and order.. etc.. as stated I think) and I do think the threat of violence and disorder is a very valid ground to curb the exercise of such a right. 8)
What did this govt did to to curb the rights of Dhatereki Roy and others. Just being BJP does not makes them the threat to violence and disorder. What did this govt did when Paki flag was unfurled.... Which fundamental rights were curbed that time.... And since when should we be afraid of threat from separatists, has the govt machinery become so mute in front of terrorists?
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