J & K news and discussion

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saket
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by saket »

Why are the BJP workers not even allowed to enter Jammu?

Is Jammu also a part of Lal Chowk?
Virupaksha
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Virupaksha »

vina wrote:
ravi_ku wrote:When the main opposition party leaders are not allowed to enter a state, what kind of kangaroo democracy is this?
Arun Jaitley is a hot shot lawyer. Why doesn't he challenge the gov'ts action in the supreme court. He won't coz he knows he will lose. The govt is well within the law on this.
dont worry court cases and all that jazz can come later. After all, they can only be directed against the minions.

So sticking behind this excuse,
Gujarat, Karnataka, Punjab and all such states can stop Sonia to come inside alleging some anti-national people's insecurities.

Good for you sir. I will really like to see when the Sonia's are stopped from entering Gujarat/Karnataka/Punjab alleging some future law and order business.
Last edited by Virupaksha on 25 Jan 2011 21:46, edited 1 time in total.
RamaY
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RamaY »

Pratyush wrote::(( The thread has moved 10 pages in one day. The day will not see any flag raising in the Lal Chawk on the morrow. The secular Indian govt has made sure of that. In spite of my previous beliefs that Status Quo will not be be altered in J&K. Now I am no longer sure.
Don't underestimate Bhartiyas' nationalism. During Ayodya days, the entire city was barricaded, people were stopped at various places. None of that could stop the karsevaks.
saket
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by saket »

vina wrote:
ravi_ku wrote:When the main opposition party leaders are not allowed to enter a state, what kind of kangaroo democracy is this?
Arun Jaitley is a hot shot lawyer. Why doesn't he challenge the gov'ts action in the supreme court. He won't coz he knows he will lose. The govt is well within the law on this.
Emergency was also legal and the Supreme Court upheld its imposition. I guess that completely vindicates IG for it, right?
Muppalla
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Muppalla »

saket wrote:Why are the BJP workers not even allowed to enter Jammu?

Is Jammu also a part of Lal Chowk?
This is the worst thing that they can do. Why a political party cannot conduct a rally? Why is it being condoned by the center. Other than desctruction of democracy what is the intent here?

Lal Chowk has sensitivities and other BS but WTF with Jammu?
saket
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by saket »

Excellent, Arun Jaitley refers to the underhand dealings of the MMS-Sonia traitrous cabal with Kasuri et al.

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/t ... ley/189015

BJP should not stop shy of raking the Kasuri revelations of joint love making over dead bodies of Indian soldiers.

Congress ka haath deshdrohi Yasin Malik ke saath, pakistani Kasuri ke saath.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by SwamyG »

vina wrote: Also he has a point. Why dont you raise the flag in Maoist dominated areas of Chattisgarh where more than 96 CRPF Jawans were killed in a single day if you want to prove the country's sovereignty to anyone and why are picking on lal chowk in some seriously perilous situation if not trying to fish in troubled waters to drive an agenda that is focused outside kashmir (like upcoming UP elections and trying to wrap yourself in a nationalist patina, which I agree with OA,that Indians today are not fools to fall far).
[/url]
That is distraction. J&K is not Chattisgarh. Chattisgarh is not J&K.

Cop: Sir, do you know why I stopped you?
Car Driver: No, officer.
Cop: Sir, you were going 15 miles over the speed limit.
Car Driver: (pointing to the other whizzing cars). Why don't you stop them too? Why me?
Cop: Sir, I am going to issue a citation. If you want to contest, you have an option to go to the Court. Here is the address. Have a nice day, Sir.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by BijuShet »

RamaY wrote:...
This is a hypothetical case only. The true colors come only when it materializes. Until then the standard answer of [sic] seculars would be "Moharram will be banned" because they know that the situation will never arise.
This is not hypothetical. Its happened before in 1992 when there were Maha-arti's (before RJB was reclaimed) held all over town. A polarizing issue when added to the existing political corruption (Jain Diary-Hawala and Harshad Mehta -a crore in a suitcase) brought out the majority voters to the poll booths who otherwise found it very inconvinient to go to the booth on election day.

Make no mistake friends, the current Lal Chowk issue is as much political as national (J&K territorial integrity). It is their eenth ka jawab (Saffron terror worse than Green terror accusations by Diggy Raja and Yuvraj) Pathar say BJP shtyle. Rok sakay tho rok lo par Mandir wahin banayenge aur Tiranaga wahin lehrayenge!!!
Bolo Bharat mata ki Jai!!! Jai Shri Ram!!!
Theo_Fidel

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Political parties do not think in terms of the nation winning. They think in terms of power and how to capture it.

If people can't handle the criticism of the BJP they should stop posting the BJP POV exclusively, praising its stance and projecting it as the only patriotic thing to do. BS.

If someone does not want to fly the national flag it is perfectly within their rights not to. If someone fly's the TSP flag, the flag should be brought down, they should be arrested and charged with sedition.
Last edited by Theo_Fidel on 25 Jan 2011 22:05, edited 1 time in total.
ramana
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

chaanakya wrote:
ramana wrote:So its like exiled. The law allows that?
Yes , under CrPC it can be done, not called "exiled" though. DMs have powers.
So it is true that India got only Independence and not Freedom in 1947.
CRamS
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by CRamS »

I am disappointed with PC, for a while he seemed to be the one of the few nationalists under MMS, but he seems to have crossed over. If I hear what Jaitly says, BJP is not going to push it if MMS cracks down. I say its a wise move. Reason being that if the security forces crack down on BJP, we could very well have a civil war that is in nobody's interests. Its not just Kashmir, the whole of India is finished.
Last edited by CRamS on 25 Jan 2011 22:15, edited 1 time in total.
CRamS
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by CRamS »

RamaY wrote:Don't underestimate Bhartiyas' nationalism. During Ayodya days, the entire city was barricaded, people were stopped at various places. None of that could stop the karsevaks.
I doubt it boss, in this day and age of IT, "globalization" crap, Oscar season, there is no nationalism left. We are witnessing the sell out of India in broad daylight by MMS, and there doesn't seem to be any street level revolt. Jaitly & Co are waging a valiant albeit lone battle. Unfortunatley, against the might of the Indian state, might that is when it comes to cracking down on its own people, not external enemies, Jaitly cannot do a VVS Laxman and achieve victory in the final day.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Bhaskar »

If we as citizens can't hoist our flag in our own land while separatists can unfurl the Pakistani flag in our land with no fear, I leads me to ask to why J&K is in India. We should give it away if our citizens can't even cross the border of J&K and are stopped by the security forces.

Shame on this government.
CRamS
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by CRamS »

vina wrote:
RamaY wrote:I want India to win, and I think that is what BJP wants too.
I dont think so. What BJP wants is very different. I saw this interview with Omar Abdullah on this Yatra business and I agree with his reasoning of why the BJP is doing this in response to a question and why it is not the time or season to pushing such kind of agendas on Kashmir.

Also he has a point. Why dont you raise the flag in Maoist dominated areas of Chattisgarh where more than 96 CRPF Jawans were killed in a single day if you want to prove the country's sovereignty to anyone and why are picking on lal chowk in some seriously perilous situation if not trying to fish in troubled waters to drive an agenda that is focused outside kashmir (like upcoming UP elections and trying to wrap yourself in a nationalist patina, which I agree with OA,that Indians today are not fools to fall far).

Watch the video here. Omar slams BJP for using tricolour for politica gains
Absolute unadulterated rubbish. Maosit area sure is troubled, but its not in danger of seceeding anytime soon. While MMS wants to gift Kashmir to TSP and its around the corner as AfPak unfolds.
chaanakya
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by chaanakya »

ramana wrote:
So it is true that India got only Independence and not Freedom in 1947.
I don't want to get into the crossfire that is going on here , Ramana garu. But one thing I know is that we have inherited all laws and same administrative system, way of policing and few parasites who are claimant to the riches bestowed by Independent India and a born success anytime we need one emperor.Britishers don't use many of the laws that they gave us. And we call us free.

Where is the freedom if we can't hoist tiranga where we want to ,when we want to ( despite SC judgement and a Statute to boot). This is the same tiranga for which our countrymen lay down their life without flinching. Why do we ask our armed forces to defend it?

Shame on those who bring all sorts of argument into this . Have some self respect.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Raja Ram »

Hoisting the national flag on Republic Day in any part of India can never be an illegal, divisive or provactive act....what is being attempted in J&K is just that....it is not anti national, it is not provacative, it is not anti muslim or anti kashmiri....if anyone gets provoked and angry about it, then the might of the state should be felt by him/her!.... and not by those who want to hoist the flag!

Period.

Arguments against this is just BS and intellectual mastrubation!

Tommorow is the 62 Republic Day of our Sovereign Republic.......Long may the Republic Live and prosper!. Jai Hind!
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Sanku »

Theo_Fidel wrote:Political parties do not think in terms of the nation winning. They think in terms of power and how to capture it.
Really now? That really confirms which party you understand closely and well.

:lol:
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by SwamyG »

Theo_Fidel wrote:Political parties do not think in terms of the nation winning. They think in terms of power and how to capture it.
True to an extent. Once a party grabs the power, if it is not perceived or does not really work for national interests - a.k.a welfare of the people, it will be shown the door or revolution breaks down. When people are let down, they get angry. And rogues step in. Two classic example are the Maoists in India and North-Easter separatist movements. Once the party forms the government, the government will (and has ) fought for national interests. INC has done it in the past. Kamal Nath, WTO ityadi still comes to mind. So in their own selfish interests all political parties will eventually be forced to take care of the people a.k.a the nation.

It depends on the prevailing system, on the approach and compromises. The Democratic and Republican parties for all their in fighting, are known to take care of American Interests foremost in the international arena. I might venture to say, they take care of their Corporations interest....well that is totally OT. But they take care of American interests. Any doubt in that?
If people can't handle the criticism of the BJP they should stop posting the BJP POV exclusively, praising its stance and projecting it as the only patriotic thing to do. BS.
I agree.
If someone does not want to fly the national flag it is perfectly within their rights not to. If someone fly's the TSP flag, the flag should be brought down, they should be arrested and charged with sedition.
Agreed, wearing patriotism on the sleeves is a recipe for takleef. But then I thought you wanted Kashmiris to be induced to fly our national flag no? But if someone wants to fly the national flag, then it is their rights to do so, no?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by BijuShet »

Just wanted to illustrate an apples to apples comparison. Those who are aligned with the UPA agenda see the current actions of BJP as making a bad situation worse and also as being very politically motivated. I think about a year ago Shiv Sena was showing its regional chauvinism against north Indians residing in Maharashtra. There were reports of targetted violence against North Indians in and around Mumbai. Situation on the ground in and around Mumbai was tense and elections to Bihar were yet to be contested. Adding fuel to that fire would have been bad for all of India yet the Yuvraj decided to taunt the Shiv Sena. He undertook his local train joy ride in Mumbai all the while daring Shiv Sena to try to stop him. This was seen as the just cause by all and celebrated by UPA supporters inside and outside the media. A similar exercise for the rights of Indians to fly their flag at Lal Chowk (still considered as Indian soil by many Indians) by the BJP has the same people critizing these actions as provacative, dangerous and politically insenstive. This my friends is the new India where Tum kare tho Chamatkar aur Hum kare tho Balatkar (If you perform then it's a miracle poetic license for a consensual satisfying experience and If I repeat then its rape).

From Rediff: What Rahul told US envoy about Hindu terrorism
December 17, 2010 15:33 IST

Congress General Secretary Rahul Gandhi had told United States ambassador Timothy Roemer that the growth of 'radicalised Hindu groups', which create religious tensions in India, could pose a bigger threat to the country than activities of groups like Lashkar-e-Tayiba.

According to a secret US diplomatic cable from New Delhi released by WikiLeaks, the Congress leader shared his views with Roemer on a range of political topics, social challenges and electoral issues for the Congress party in the next five years.

The cable contained details of Gandhi's conversation with the envoy at a luncheon hosted by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh at his residence in July 2009 in honour of visiting Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

"Responding to the ambassador's query about Lashkar-e-Tayiba's activities in the region and immediate threat to India, Gandhi said there was evidence of some support for the group among certain elements in India's indigenous Muslim community," the cable notes.


"However, Gandhi warned that the bigger threat may be the growth of radicalised Hindu groups, which create religious tensions and political confrontations with the Muslim community," it said.

The cable dated August 3, 2009, which described Roemer's luncheon encounter with Gandhi on July 20, 2009, noted that Gandhi was referring to the tensions created by some of the more polarising figures in the Bharatiya Janata Party such as Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi.

"The risk of a 'home-grown' extremist front, reacting to terror attacks coming from Pakistan or from Islamist groups in India, was a growing concern and one that demanded constant attention," it said.

The cable signed off by Roemer says that Gandhi, who was seated next to the ambassador, was forthright in describing the challenges faced by the Congress party and the UPA government in the months ahead.

The United States, which has accused WikiLeaks of stealing its secret cables, has refused to either deny or confirm the authenticity of these cables.

"Over the past four years, he was an elusive contact, but he could be interested in reaching out to the United States, given a thoughtful, politically sensitive and strategic approach on our part," it said.

Roemer spoke about the need to reach out to the young leaders of the country. "We will seek other opportunities to engage with him and with other promising young members of the new generation of parliamentarians," he said.

"Gandhi mentioned that in the recent election, 60 members of the new Parliament were 45 or younger. In a system long viewed as relatively static, the influx of new faces and the rising profile of young leaders like Rahul Gandhi provides us an opening to expand the constituency in support of the strategic partnership with a long term horizon," Roemer said.

According to the cable, Gandhi stressed that his focus in the upcoming months would be on state assembly elections in Maharashtra and party building efforts at the local level. "He was busy trying to recruit more appealing candidates to run for Member of Legislative Assembly positions nationwide," Roemer said.

"Gandhi's focus was on finding younger party members who would not carry some of the baggage of older Congress candidates. He aimed at rebuilding party structures in small towns and rural areas to attract voters and believed the main opposition BJP was vulnerable there," stated the cable.

The cable noted that Gandhi did not seem to be as focused on electoral efforts in bigger cities, such as Delhi and Mumbai.

"Noting that the Congress party's victory in this past spring's parliamentary elections had put the United Progressive Alliance government in a comfortable position, Gandhi still expressed concerns about the numerous challenges regarding the UPA's ability to implement its programmes in Parliament," the cable said.

Citing Rahul Gandhi's move to take on Shiv Sena's 'xenophobic agenda', a secret memo from the US embassy in New Delhi in February this year said the young Congress leader appears to be becoming increasingly sure-footed in his political instincts.

The secret cable released by WikiLeaks is dated February 22, 2010 and is a diary of the political events in the country from January 30 to February 19. The document said Gandhi's blunt words against the 'Maharashtra chauvinist' party, followed by his visit to Mumbai that came with a local train ride was a public relations bonanza for him.

"He (Gandhi) first hurled some blunt words at the Thackerays and Shiv Sena's xenophobic agenda. These were widely and sympathetically reported around the country," said the cable.

"He then took it a step further when the Shiv Sena issued 'Keep Off Maharashtra' threats by going to the Thackerays' home ground of Mumbai, where he continued to take shots at them," the cable says, referring to the political events of those days.


"He (Gandhi) topped it off by showing the common touch when he made a last minute change in his itinerary to travel across town in a second-class train compartment," said the cable.

"All in all, a public relations bonanza for Rahul as the press gave wide coverage to his Shiv Sena bashing and his train ride. Forty Shiv Sena activists were detained by the police for Rahul's visit," the cable observed.

Not to be outdone, the Shiv Sena has been grabbing headlines in recent days with its attacks on Rahul, Reliance Group's Mukesh Ambani and Bollywood icon Shah Rukh Khan, the cable said. It adds that the Shiv Sena has also been in a tussle with the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, the parent organisation of its ally the BJP, over the rights of north Indian migrants in Mumbai.

"Media reports a rift between the RSS and the Shiv Sena over the Sena's verbal attacks on migrants from Bihar and Uttar Pradesh," says the cable.

"Rahul Gandhi came to the defence of north Indians living and working in Mumbai during an ongoing visit to Bihar by telling the press that the Sena was irrelevant and that all Indians had a right to reside freely in India," it said.

The document noted that Shiv Sena supremo Bal Thackeray responded by launching an attack on Rahul Gandhi's 'Italian Mummy', referring to UPA chief Sonia Gandhi.

The cable also gives its comment on the appointment of Rajiv Satav as the new Youth Congress chief by Rahul, which indicated that the Congress leader was interested in enhancing the party's position in Maharashtra from where Satav came.

"Party General Secretary Rahul Gandhi hand picked Satav for the job, surprising political observers who had expected an election for the top IYC post as per Gandhi's previous statements about making the party 'more democratic,'" it said.
...
sum
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by sum »

Just wanted to illustrate an apples to apples comparison. Those who are aligned with the UPA agenda see the current actions of BJP as making a bad situation worse and also as being very politically motivated. I think about a year ago Shiv Sena was showing its regional chauvinism against north Indians residing in Maharashtra. There were reports of targetted violence against North Indians in and around Mumbai. Situation on the ground in and around Mumbai was tense and elections to Bihar were yet to be contested. Adding fuel to that fire would have been bad for all of India yet the Yuvraj decided to taunt the Shiv Sena. He undertook his local train joy ride in Mumbai all the while daring Shiv Sena to try to stop him. This was seen as the just cause by all and celebrated by UPA supporters inside and outside the media.
Interesting example...guess the "sensitivities" of the few Shiv Sainiks didn't matter in that case onlee unlike the "few seperatists sensitivities" in the current drama...
chaanakya
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by chaanakya »

"Rahul Gandhi came to the defence of north Indians living and working in Mumbai during an ongoing visit to Bihar by telling the press that the Sena was irrelevant and that all Indians had a right to reside freely in India," it said. [/b]
Antics of born success did not cut ice with Bihar. CON party was routed as was laloo.
Muppalla
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Muppalla »

sum wrote: Interesting example...guess the "sensitivities" of the few Shiv Sainiks didn't matter in that case onlee unlike the "few seperatists sensitivities" in the current drama...
I will not put it that way. Sensitivities of few Maharashtrians whom the Shiv Sena represents did not matter for Rahul. They are just few and not all Maharashtrians.

Is this not the way the bile about alienated KMs is being cooked?
Last edited by Muppalla on 25 Jan 2011 23:35, edited 1 time in total.
BijuShet
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by BijuShet »

Another reason why it is important for the BJP to fly the flag on Republic day tomorrow at Lal Chowk. It is also the time for the Indian citizen to ponder if this UPA govt and the J&K state govt are right in prosecuting the BJP nationlists to the full extent of the law for these acts.

When Arundhati Roy incited the people to rebellion against Indian state by saying that Kashmir was never a part of India look at how the same govt reacted to her actions.

From Zee News : Sedition charge against Arundhati Roy?
Updated on Saturday, November 27, 2010, 09:47

New Delhi: A Delhi court is likely to decide on Saturday whether criminal proceedings can be initiated against hardline Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani and writer-activist Arundhati Roy on charge of sedition for their alleged anti-India statements.

Metropolitan magistrate Navita Kumari Bagha, who pulled up the police for failing to submit proper status report on the complaint filed with them in October 38 by Sushil Pandit {Sushil Pandit is a private citizen who filed this complaint and not the GoI who should have prosecuted in the first place.} seeking registration of FIR against Roy and Geelani, reserved the order on the complaint filed with the court after hearing arguments of Pandit's counsel.

Besides Geelani and Roy, the complaint sought prosecution of five others, including Delhi University professor SAR Geelani, who was acquitted in Parliament attack case, and Sheikh Showkat Hussain, a professor of Jammu and Kashmir University.

"The accused had crossed all the limits of freedom of expression and incited the people to rebellion against Indian state by saying that Kashmir was never a part of India. Their conduct fell within the definition of offences described under the IPC and Unlawful Activities Prevention Act," advocate Vikas Pador, who represented Pandit, submitted before the court.


According to the complaint, the accused made the comments at a convention here in October on 'Azadi--The Only Way'. Hurriyat leader Geelani shared the dais with Roy and pro-Maoist leader Vara Vara Rao among others. Geelani was heckled by the audience.

During the proceedings today, the court said, "You (Police) were not supposed to file reply on the complaint. You were asked to file the status report as to what action has been taken on complaint filed with you with regard to cognisable offences," the court said.

The counsel pointed out to the court that the police had simply denied the occurrence of any offence and just admitted that a seminar was organised. "The SHO is not even present in the court. They are sleeping over the matter and did not give any answer to our complaint," Padora alleged.

Taking the counsel's plea into consideration, the court allowed him to advance arguments in the matter and reserved its order.

The complaint filed under Section 156 (3) of the Criminal Procedure Code with the court on November 1 alleged that the government had miserably failed to initiate any action against the "culprits of the anti-India seminar so a private complaint against them has been filed".
This is how the Home Minister decided to prosecute in the Arundhati case.
Chidambaram on Arundhati: Not taking action is also an action
New Delhi: Home Minister P Chidambaram on Monday said Delhi Police not filing a case against noted writer Arundhati Roy for her alleged seditious speech recently was in accordance with the letter and spirit of law.

"Not taking action is also an action," he shot back when a journalist asked him why the government was not acting against her for her Azaadi (independence) remarks made at a convention on Kashmir here recently.

"Section 124(A) of the IPC (related to sedition) is for deterrence and punishment. The spirit of the law and true interpretation of law is that unless there is direct incitement to violence, the state must show tolerance and forbearance. "Delhi Police is acting in accordance with the letter and spirit of the law," he said.
{very insightful that the same tolerance and forbearance is not visible when the shoe is on the other foot and BJP wants to fly the Indian flag on Indian Republic day.}

To a question about a demonstration outside the writer's residence by BJP women cell activists, the Minister said, "I don't think there was any attack on her residence. If there is specific request, we will provide her security."

BJP has been demanding registration of police case against her and Hurriyat hardliner leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani for their speeches in the convention on Kashmir.
ramana
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

Rajaram a data point to support your take....

x-post...
Brad Goodman wrote:Pakistan warns against India nuclear support
GENEVA: Pakistan warned on Tuesday that growing international support for rival India’s nuclear programme would force Islamabad to bolster its deterrence and destabilise the region
Theo_Fidel

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Theo_Fidel »

SwamyG,

Keep in mind individuals within the party may look out for the nation, but the party itself only goes for power. In this pursuit the ends always justify the means.

Agreed that it is your right to raise flag in your home. You can't barge into your neighbors home and forcibly fly it.

Also, no matter what we may think OA is the legitimate CM. He is the one who makes the call. We have to suck it up and deal with it. In all this tamasha OA is the one who has been let off the hook. He is the one who should have been named and shamed and publicly called out for not flying the flag. If even after that he refuses, it is his right not to. He can even forcibly prevent others from entering and flying any flag if he so chooses. In this matter, the states are almost completely sovereign.
Last edited by Theo_Fidel on 25 Jan 2011 23:53, edited 1 time in total.
ramana
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

Op-Ed in Hindustan Times:

A listening post and not a bridge

By Ashok Malik
Whichever way it ends, the BJP Ekta Yatra has one clear loser: Omar Abdullah. In his political and administrative responses, his impetuous over-reaction and his absence of statecraft — which have given the BJP’s Yatra, tired idea as it was, a traction it would not otherwise have got — the Jammu and Kashmir chief minister has only weakened himself.

There is a context to this. In the past year, the Kashmir Valley has gone through a tense and troubled period. For this, it is easy to blame the All-Party Hurriyat Conference, Islamist radicals beyond the Hurriyat’s grip, masterminds across the Line of Control, wildcat ‘intellectuals’ from New Delhi and the history of the UPA government’s engagement with Kashmiri political opinion since 2004.

Yet, the fact is the unrest in the Valley was also substantively — though admittedly not entirely — a protest movement against a clumsy chief minister, one who had to be persuaded by the Union home ministry to venture out to his embattled state capital, and was perceived as distant and aloof even by those who had elected him in 2008. Indeed, it is sometimes unclear if the junior Abdullah has a core constituency left outside the studios of English news channels.

The BJP’s Yatra catered to segments of opinion but, to be fair, was not top of the mind for the ordinary citizen. In that sense, the national mood is very different from January 1992, when an earlier Ekta Yatra had seen Murli Manohar Joshi unfurl the national flag in Srinagar. The Congress government of the time — Jammu and Kashmir was then under President’s rule — had finessed the BJP by practically air-dropping a small party team, under heavy security, to wave the flag, make a symbolic point and leave.

Abdullah could similarly have used this Yatra to his advantage. He could have allowed it under restrictive conditions — not difficult to organise on Republic Day anyway — and placed the onus on the Union government. Simultaneously, he could have sent out a message to the ‘intifada warriors’ that provocative gestures and actions on their part were bound to evoke a counter-mobilisation by the BJP and in the India beyond the Valley. All these months, Abdullah has sought space from the national polity to build his capital and credibility among those Kashmiris who need not be violent but nevertheless have sympathy for the separatist cause. Yet, he refuses to have a two-way conversation with this section, shies away from explaining to them the limits of what India can do and what compromises it can absorb. The chief minister in Srinagar cannot just be a listening point; he needs to be a bridge.

That aside, in forcing the stoppage of trains, not letting planes take off, removing BJP leaders from even Jammu and expelling them to Punjab, Abdullah has yet again adopted a Valley-centric approach. He is also the chief minister of Jammu, isn’t he? This is a region where the BJP has significant support and where the Yatra was unlikely to cause any adverse incident. Why wasn’t a public meeting possible there?

As during the Amarnath Yatra pilgrim shelter dispute, Abdullah has been extremely careful with Valley sensitivities but unmindful of Jammu’s concerns. His speech in Parliament in July 2008 — when the first UPA government faced a vote of confidence — was cheered in Valley-obsessed circles in New Delhi but went down extremely badly in Jammu.

In private conversations, UPA ministers admit Abdullah is getting carried away but are letting him make his mistakes. No doubt North Block will send him a bill after the Yatra chapter is over.

(Ashok Malik is a Delhi-based political commentator)

*The views expressed by the author are personal
All the more strange as to why Center is going hammer and tongs and evoking images of a bygone era where civil rights were suspended.
Virupaksha
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Virupaksha »

Theo,

It was MMS himself who publicly fired the first shot across the bow.
The PM was himself questioning the right of flying the national flag by the citizens. That is unfortunately the worst precedence set during these days.
anmol
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by anmol »

Poonam Mahajan(BJP leader, daughter of Pramod Mahajan) says that CRPF will be hoisting flag at Lal Chowk, hope this is true. But wouldn't this make CRPF communal/divisive ? (/sarcasm)
source: http://twitter.com/poonam_mahajan
Image
Yayavar
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Yayavar »

Theo_Fidel wrote:SwamyG,

Keep in mind individuals within the party may look out for the nation, but the party itself only goes for power. In this pursuit the ends always justify the means.

Agreed that it is your right to raise flag in your home. You can't barge into your neighbors home and forcibly fly it.

Also, no matter what we may think OA is the legitimate CM. He is the one who makes the call. We have to suck it up and deal with it. In all this tamasha OA is the one who has been let off the hook. He is the one who should have been named and shamed and publicly called out for not flying the flag. If even after that he refuses, it is his right not to. He can even forcibly prevent others from entering and flying any flag if he so chooses. In this matter, the states are almost completely sovereign.
He could have just said, "I'm unfurling the flag..you can attend and observe". All clear, right? However, from what I understand there was no plan to fly the flag after 20years of such tradition.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

Anmol There is Lal Chowk and there is lal chowk. The press reports clearly stated that BJP yatra is to hoist it on the Clock Tower/Ghanta Ghar. The very same press reports state that the CRPF is to hoist the flag on the Palladium location which is not the Clock Tower.

So till we know the reality this is like

"Aswatthama hatha, kunjera"!

or Half a lie.
Theo_Fidel

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Marten,

I've said this before we are not an empire. No 'one unit' here. We are a federation. States do strange things all the time. The other states have to restrain themselves to expressing disapproval and some heated argument maybe some advice and counsel.

The only major mechanism for intervention is presidents rule. Then we, the remaining states, can do what ever we want in Srinagar.

Again it is OA who should be called out here. It is his call. The BJP should have directly attacked him and his credibility and yes at that point they could even have questioned his patriotism. They have essentially given him a get out of jail free card by turning it into a law/order problem.
Last edited by Theo_Fidel on 26 Jan 2011 00:06, edited 1 time in total.
Inder Sharma
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Inder Sharma »

I found this link wherein this young kid too has claimed a stake and has expressed her opinion in this ongoing discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5phDlQIO ... re=related
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by arjunm »

vina wrote:
RamaY wrote:I want India to win, and I think that is what BJP wants too.
I dont think so. What BJP wants is very different. I saw this interview with Omar Abdullah on this Yatra business and I agree with his reasoning of why the BJP is doing this in response to a question and why it is not the time or season to pushing such kind of agendas on Kashmir.

Also he has a point. Why dont you raise the flag in Maoist dominated areas of Chattisgarh where more than 96 CRPF Jawans were killed in a single day if you want to prove the country's sovereignty to anyone and why are picking on lal chowk in some seriously perilous situation if not trying to fish in troubled waters to drive an agenda that is focused outside kashmir (like upcoming UP elections and trying to wrap yourself in a nationalist patina, which I agree with OA,that Indians today are not fools to fall far).

Watch the video here. Omar slams BJP for using tricolour for politica gains

Real brainiac. I guess Mr.OA should put his logic straight first. Chattishgarh was never illegally claimed by any rouge terrorist country neither any continuous separatist movement has been going on funded and sponsored by a neighbouring country. The continuous export of terrorism from the neighbouring country and failure to counter it which caused half a mililon KP people to flee their homes from the valley. Besides, these Paki sponsored terrorism, OA's previous remarks to bring Pakistan as part of the solution needs also to be clarified. Arunacahal Pradesh also illegally claimed buy China,that does not mean that Indians should give up their demands ,and and stop hoisting tri-color over there. The difference between OA and Arunachal CM is OA plays the double games and even plays occasional devil's advocate whereas Arunachal CM asked for more army presence and made strong argument about this. .BJP's triumph to hoist tri-colors at the Lal_chowk is a test case to see how deep GOI's involvement with the dubious back-door diplomacy to fool the aam admi in the name futile exercise of resolving Kashmir issue at the behest of US and other players. After Sharam-El-Sheik fiasco who would believe these bunch of traitors?We have seen the strategic bankruptcy of Congrss party since last 63 years, of which their share of 55 years of governance.They just missed too many opportunities for the fear of Muslim anger and end up with hotch potch cover up without any statesmanship in solving the problem. And tis is getting worst under this proxy governance by Ahemed patel and Rahul Gandhi.

Just to know the first hand experience of their level of politics and governance one just look at Congressi run states in comparison with BJP ruled states, in every parameters how messy and corrupt clueless this party has become. if their head is run by a thoroughly corrupt lady with questionable allegiance with foreign anti-national forces, you can not expect policies from these people that runs deep through the vain to protect the vital national interest.

I understand why even a national flag hoisting by BJP has become such a major issue for the Congress. Because they started to feel the loosing of grip of power because apart from riddles with scams and corrupt governance, they have failed in almost all major front whether 20 miles a day road building or major Infra- projects and glaring negelect in defence, they are now in cover up mode. So they need such futile drama of showing BJP as a spoiler. Another major discomfort is,-even though this has not much been publicised in the main stream media, BJP's Gl.secretary Nitin Gadkari;s recent successful trip to China and close talks with high profile politburo members like i Changchun, member of the standing committee of the political bureau as well as Minister for International Department Wang Jia promised support and participation in the economic development in BJP ruled state may be too much to digest.And one can imagine the battle for the political turf for India's next election in 2014 may turn out to be, a show down for the political influence of India' next elected government between Uncle and the Panda and that makes the Ruling Congress party all the more nervous. (see Gadkari visit to China:http://www.dailypioneer.com/312884/Gadk ... ficit.html) http://www.dailypioneer.com/312884/Gadk ... Expedition
Last edited by arjunm on 26 Jan 2011 00:32, edited 2 times in total.
anmol
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by anmol »

ramana wrote:Anmol There is Lal Chowk and there is lal chowk. The press reports clearly stated that BJP yatra is to hoist it on the Clock Tower/Ghanta Ghar. The very same press reports state that the CRPF is to hoist the flag on the Palladium location which is not the Clock Tower.

So till we know the reality this is like

"Aswatthama hatha, kunjera"!

or Half a lie.
Sir, you are right. That is why i wrote "I hope it is true". I have sought clarification from her regarding place in Lal Chowk where flag is going to be hoisted. Waiting for her reply.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RamaY »

[/quote]

What else can he do!

* He cannot win the hearts and minds of Kashmiri Muslims in line with Indian interests
* He cannot protect the interests of Kashmiri Pandits in the valley
* He cannot even cater to the interests of Jammuites and Ladakhis
* He cannot maintain law-and-order in his state in spite of whole nation's support
* He cannot manage the finances of the state to the betterment of the state
* He cannot stop separatists from burning Indian flag and raise Paki flag in the middle of Srinagar
* He cannot hoist Indian flag in Lal Chowk without the opposition parties reminding and conducting a nationwide yatra

All he can do is "slam" BJP as a sore loser :(( :(( :((
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ShyamSP »

ravi_ku wrote:Theo,

It was MMS himself who publicly fired the first shot across the bow.
The PM was himself questioning the right of flying the national flag by the citizens. That is unfortunately the worst precedence set during these days.
Nominated PM is doing a chaprasi work on what Queen or other masters want him to do. If any one fought and got elected they will know value of holding the land. Masters want to compromise on things, Prince wants to be PM. They listen and in turn get better hacking technology and no need to arrest somebody for showing that displays can be hacked.

Fast forward a few years... Media crowd vindicated by their stance comments BJP lost for raising flag issue. Master wins. Prince wins. aamadmi loses.

A few hundreds/thousands of miles from the valley, average Indian is thinking why the heck I can't hoist flag in my own country?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by svinayak »

Theo_Fidel wrote:Marten,

I've said this before we are not an empire. No 'one unit' here. We are a federation. States do strange things all the time. The other states have to restrain themselves to expressing disapproval and some heated argument maybe some advice and counsel.

The only major mechanism for intervention is presidents rule. Then we, the remaining states, can do what ever we want in Srinagar.
I think you are going to another topic here. India has a civilizational identity and the majority community has connection to every region of the country for hundreds of years. This is not a new country cobbled together if you want to believe some secular people.
Federation is just a mechanism for governance but people have deep connection in every region bot religious and civilizational. Indian people are not going to imagine their country according to some western concept of state.

With your statements you are attempting social engineering and trying to speak for others. It may be your personal experience but rest of the country does not see it that way. I have family even in Kashmir even though I am from the south.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by SwamyG »

Theo_Fidel wrote:SwamyG,

Keep in mind individuals within the party may look out for the nation, but the party itself only goes for power. In this pursuit the ends always justify the means.

Agreed that it is your right to raise flag in your home. You can't barge into your neighbors home and forcibly fly it.

Also, no matter what we may think OA is the legitimate CM. He is the one who makes the call. We have to suck it up and deal with it. In all this tamasha OA is the one who has been let off the hook. He is the one who should have been named and shamed and publicly called out for not flying the flag. If even after that he refuses, it is his right not to. He can even forcibly prevent others from entering and flying any flag if he so chooses. In this matter, the states are almost completely sovereign.
False analogy there. J&K is part of the country. Period. Until we officially let it go. It is part of India. A political party, let us say, with all miscalculations, mischief ityadi wants to hoist a national flag in the public. And the GoI is preventing it. Simple.
We are not talking about hoisting Indian flag in Pakistan. We are talking about it in India.

Just because I hail from TN, I have no right to stop some one from raising an Indian flag say in front of Central Station of Madras.

OA is not the issue here. At least not the way INC has reacted so far.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Bhaskar »

I wouldn't be very critical of Omar. After all, he got the support of the kashmiri hindus and the kashmiris in the valley.
Its hard for anyone, be that person be of any caliber, to run a state like Jammu and Kashmir. A state where the army is used to restore peace and the people are always ready for a violent revolution. Him pleasing the Indian state will drain away his support in the valley, and his support for the people in the valley will erode all support from the centre and Jammu.
J&K is honestly a hell hole. Partly to be blame is the Omar government and Central government. Laws were set by both governments to ensure that Kashmiris are not assimilated, but these laws have greater led to the alienation of the kashmiris and has ignited the voice for seperation as the constitution itself gives J&K a special status.

Integration, and not alienation is needed. Precisely why the BJP yatra was necessary to let the people know that they are Indian citizens. This will show the willingness of the rest of the country that they are accepted in the society as any other citizens...
However, letting Kashmiris, or any ethnic group decide their own fate will certainly lead to seperation. We are the world's most diverse nation, partly what makes us Indians. Kashmiris need to realize that they are like any other ethnic group in the country, not the special status that they are given. They are who we are, and they should be given the same rights and freedoms as we have.

Lets hope the TIRANGA flies high tomorrow at Lal Chowk.
Jai Hind!
Theo_Fidel

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Theo_Fidel »

SwamyG wrote:Just because I hail from TN, I have no right to stop some one from raising an Indian flag say in front of Central Station of Madras.
Yes, you do as the state administration. The constitution gives you the right. You may choose not to exercise it but that is another matter. The J&K government is not doing anything illegal. If it was, there would be a court case in a heartbeat. Public safety/order, law and enforcement of both central and state laws is a State item. The right to fly the flag for individuals is a 'may' permissive clause. The Individual may fly the flag.. It can be curtailed at any point. I believe there is a communal use clause that specifically withdraws the permission.

All this one civilization philosophy is just that, philosophy. The constitution does not recognize any of it.
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