J & K news and discussion

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 Jan 2011 07:35

Viv S wrote
Is the question of what the BJP has done to deserve it relevant to this particular debate? Because I was informed on this thread that it was a different question that could be taken up elsewhere. Regardless -

As you can perhaps see in my post - this was a simple exploration of the logic that "If" it is claimed that flag-hoisting by BJP would be resented overwhelmingly/en-masse [because otherwise the supposed general break down of law and order cannot be claimed], and not flag-hoisting itself, then it must also logically mean that overhelmingly large/en-masse Kashmiris see their greatest enemy in the BJP.

If I try to explore possible reasons that could perhaps be advanced - I cannot find much to distinguish between the BJP and comparable in size/legislative representation/presence in national politics etc - parties such as the INC - as far as relevant for Kashmir itself! So I tried to list out the most common arguments given or implied/hinted that could still make some sense in providing some real distinguishing points between the "unwanted" party and not-so-unwanted parties. I landed up with the three as listed in (a), (b) and (c).

Do follow the -if-then sequence!

Quote:
(a) if it is said that BJP during its central gov phase maintained army presence and the army committed atrocities on "all Kashmiris" - then what frees the Congress from a similar feeling - which was in central power for much longer period and maintained army presence during their tenure for a longer period too!

Nothing of the sort is being said. Though its non-negotiable stand on the AFSPA doesn't help the government to translate the huge drop in violence into socio-political gains on the ground.

Well if this is not a valid distinction between the BJP an dthe Congress for the Kashmiris to resent BJP and not the Congress - fine! One less excuse for picking on the BJP in particular.

Quote:
(b) as far as Kashmir seems to be connected - the difference between the two parties is simply too thin to discriminate in on-ground security responses. But the big difference between the two is ofcourse the perception, rightly or wrongly - that they have significant differences on attitudes towards Islamism. While Congress appears to submit to and protect Islamism, BJP criticizes but rarely takes any concrete steps to attack Islamism's fundamental institutions.

My obvious question would have been what is 'Islamism' and what sort of threat is it, but I suspect this debate will veer off on a tangent if one pursues that line of questioning.

Quote:
(c) The much greater differences - much more than on the issue of Islamism - is of course the attitude towards the "Hindu". Whereas Congress does everything possible to bash the "Hindu" in the name of bashing "Hindutva", BJP does not bash the Hindu. Congress is ready to paint "Hindu" as the greater threat to "India" by painting Hindu "terror" as the real threat, while the BJP has not done it.

Bashing 'Hindutva' does not equal bashing 'the Hindu'. And IMHO 'Hindu terror' may indeed end up being a bigger threat than SIMI or Pak-based terror organisations because it has a vastly bigger cheer-leading squad. Well goody gumdrops, whaddya know... were already swerving off the topic. We can resume on a more appropriate thread if you'll lead the way.

I am sure many will find this together most interesting. As I mentioned before, I was simply exploring the possible hypotheses about distinctions. But at one stroke, you are confirming that you know exactly what "Hindutva" is and what "Hindu" is - and how different they are, since bashing one does not mean bashing the other for you. To claim that you have to have detailed knowledge of both, and in fact complete definition of both - because if you do not know everything about them - you may still miss out on possible similarities, right? If your knowledge is incomplete then you cannot also claim that they are "different", because how would you then know the relative proprotion of similarities and differences? What if more similarities lay in the "unknown" part than you know of differences in the parts "known" to you!

Now after such a complete knowledge of "Hindutva" and "Hindu", you cannot even hazard a guess about what "Islamism" is? Do "Hindutva" and "Hindu" fill your thoughts up so much that there is space for none other! Is it a case of naastika being the ultimate obsession with Ishwar where the latter is constantly present in denial!

Its so highly gratifying to know that while you have such complete knowledge of "Hindutva"/"Hindu" and "Hindu terror" - to even predict that the latter may yet turn out to be the greatest "threat" - and you even dont know what "Islamism" may mean and whether it could even be a "threat" at all! [Interesting - if you dont know about other potential terror/threat candiddates - how did you know that you have already found the greatest threat? ]

Quote:
(2) All Kashmiris will be enraged at the Indian national flag. Now that is a curious claim. I think anyone who has to justify this will ultimately land up in claiming Kashmiris as non-Indians, as anti-Indians, as anti-Indians because all Indians are anti-Muslims, as anti-Indians because all Indians are Hindus - or various combinations of all four.

Its a claim that's yet to made.

Well if the (1) is not true - that is the anger of "Kashmiris" was not against the BJP raising the flag -then it must be against the flag itself? Also why would then other parties not attempt to raise the national flag - they are not BJP are they? If the admin can go to such lengths to prevent raising of the national flag, and BJP was not the reason, then we are only left with this option (2).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jan 2011 07:42

ManjaM, Good call. Its like you said.The operation build new leaders turned out wrong as the ones picked were not upto mark.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 27 Jan 2011 07:43

somnath wrote: <snip>

So what should be our next steps? Provoke and bring along another round of intifada? Another round of clashes, inevitably leading to police firings, deaths? Or to continue with more of the above three?

Who started the stone pelting last year. who provoked it. what about past violence.
who treated them with kid gloves on the blood of Indians.
who will answer the young lives lost.
who created instability and fragile peace due to their pussilanimity when the need of the hour was to be firm.
law and order has to be maintained when violence is anticipated.

A few more years of status quo wil enable the govt to seriously look at diluting Art 370 (on the issue of proerty owndership)even further...Maybe start with Jammu and Ladakh, then on to Kashmir...It will make sense only when the security situation in Kashmir to be good enough for people to WANT to migrate..Currently most people will baulk, including the pandits..

How many more years. What is the guarantee. did govt tell any one about this-- may be piss trak 4. If article 370 will be diluted starting with jammu and ladakh, it would have been done earlier. The KMs are the ones having a problem ably assisted by the current govt directly or indirectly. Does anyone seriously think that security situation will improve with love making.

We would not have had this problem with the amount of love we have given them since independence.

.
By default we are helped to an extent by the soosai mentality of the jeehards in TSP which is going down the tube.

Instead of a slow, deliberate strategy of irrelvance of the issue, if we keep the pot boiling forever, the chances of us getting scalded will be a constant threat...

Irrelevance is because of TSP going down the toilet with time. Due to this, its support is diminishing with India is improving by leaps and bounds.of course the jeehards amongst KMs know which side is buttered.
The current govt is keeping the pot boiling forever and hence the chances of getting scalded will be a constant threat.

This isnt about party politics, BJP understood this pretty well while in govt........

It is pretty sad that one has to stoop to this level instead of uniting India wrt terrorists.
talk about divisive politics.

talk about self goals.

Mighty disappointed.

vina · Post by **vina** » 27 Jan 2011 07:49

A sane editorial in The Hindu. The BJP wallahs would do well to reflect on it. But hey, they seem tone deaf and bent on ostrich like behavior and totally inured to not hearing or seeing anything that comes from their world view of not how things ARE mind you, but as how it should be be.

Trouble-making in Kashmir

Published: January 27, 2011 00:12 IST | Updated: January 27, 2011 00:12 IST January 27, 2011
Trouble-making in Kashmir
Share · Comment · print · T+

Making trouble, not peace and unity, was the real purpose of the Bharatiya Janata Party's Ekta Yatra to hoist the national flag at Lal Chowk in Srinagar on Republic Day. The people and the government of the troubled State of Jammu and Kashmir certainly did not need this disintegrative march by leaders of the country's principal opposition party, who seemed intent on heightening tensions and provoking violence rather than on healing wounds and restoring normality. In the face of a potentially explosive situation, the law-enforcing authorities in Jammu and Kashmir had no choice but to stop the yatra at Lakhanpur and arrest the leaders. Clearly, the BJP wanted to use the Kashmir Valley as another stage for furthering its communal agenda; the political dividends were to come from elsewhere in the country. For all its talk of making corruption and governance the key issues in its poll campaign, the Hindutva party does not seem to tire of working for a Hindu-Muslim polarisation of the vote in its favour. Kashmir, like the Babri Masjid, is seen to be a tool for political mobilisation of Hindus across the country. Kashmir is a complex issue that admits of no straight or quick solutions. The very least a responsible political party can do is to avoid disrupting the uneasy calm that prevails in the Valley after months of street protests last year.

As it neared Jammu and Kashmir, the yatra, which set off on January 12 from Kolkata, looked more like an expedition to conquer enemy territory than a march for national unity. The political target was not separatism in Kashmir but the secular foundations of India. Sushma Swaraj, one of the expeditionary leaders, outlined how the BJP intended politically to use the stopping of the yatra: while those who burnt the national flag were being given security, she said, those who held up the tricolour were being arrested. Such oft-repeated confrontational tactics offer limited purchase. An opposition party would be expected to concentrate on issues that resonate with the people. Interestingly, the BJP's own allies have seen through the latest misadventure. Bihar Chief Minister and Janata Dal (United) leader Nitish Kumar, who runs a coalition government with the BJP, saw no meaning in the yatra in view of the situation in the Valley. Surely, if the BJP turns a deaf ear to friends and foes alike, it will find itself isolated on key issues. Its interests would be served by learning to look ahead instead of repeating old discredited tricks. Any further attempt to make political capital of the travails of the people of Jammu and Kashmir would be worse than a crime — it would be a historic blunder.

Have to absolutely agree with the editorial. I had posted on every point the editorial has captured so well and succinctly. 1) It looks and feels like a expedition out to capture "enemy" territory 2)It's politics is rotten to the core and just by wrapping your self in the national flag , you can't edify it 3) It is the same one trip pony show of the BJP (Rath Yathra and Riots politics) all at the cost of the social fabric of India and finally it would be a terrible-terrible disaster and an utterly unrecoverable one at that if the BJP pushes this line of confrontation and it is allowed to even remotely succeed in that.

Kudos to Omar Abdullah's J&K govt and the Govt of India for nipping this maleficent and frankly anti-national trouble making exercise that would have had serious long term irreparable consequences if it had even marginally succeeded.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 Jan 2011 07:57

Theo_Fidel wrote:Somnath,

They need to get that Railway in there. Ordinary Kashmiri's need to travel and see India. Once they start vacationing in Goa like the rest of us this conversation will be over..

Now about that Railway, was it 2017 or 2023 completion again. It was supposed to be 2009 finish.

Theo garu,

I admire your optimism.

KSA sheks have been living goan life for >50 years and we are yet to see their attitudes change toward their own citizens, forget about non-believers. Why that far, take a look at Paki RAPEs. They live Goan life day in and day out. But it didn't change their attitudes toward India and Indians a bit.

Your, and others who support separatist sensitivities, intentions are noble. But you guys seem to miss a simple truth about human nature. Humans do not appreciate anything that comes free and without effort/hardship. Kashmiri separatists are pampered too much as India wants to win their hearts and minds. But these separatists do not have hearts and minds as their faith demands so, as a believer is required to follow the faith to the word and not allowed to have a mind of their own.

Most recent example of this phenomenon can be seen in recent VC of AMU episode. Right or wrong VC of AMU openly expressed his thoughts on Narendra Modi's governance (not the individual). He had been harassed by Islamists until he took back his statement. While doing so that gentleman made two remarks - First, that Allah will "revenge" Modi (individual), and that "Idol worshipers" are condemned (demeaning Hindu religion), both are unnecessary. But that gentleman felt that it is a necessary thing to get Islamist acceptance and was confident of immunity from prosecution for his hate speech against Hinduism under [sic] secularism followed by GOI and Indians.

I can't help but pity the optimism of Hindu liberals that a train line (or something like that) would somehow suddenly enlighten Kashmiri muslims by taking them for a train ride to rest of India or Goa (I know why you picked Goa). This shows how naive you are. Do you think Kashmirs do not know about sex or starved of sex. I can guarantee that the average sexual awareness of a Kashmiri Muslim youth will be at par with national average, if not more.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 27 Jan 2011 08:01

BJP mulls moving court over R-Day detention

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/bjp-m ... on/742384/

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 27 Jan 2011 08:02

Yatra stopped to appease separatists: Jaitley

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Yatra ... ley/742509

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 Jan 2011 08:03

ManjaM wrote: Secondly, Rahul Babas hand is showing everywhere. The hamhandedness with which this episode has been dealt with by OA and JK police means that little actual thought has gone into how to deal with the situation. Seems less to be actions of by-the-book babus and more a political action by reckless politicians misusing public machinery. Yuvrajs hatred for Hindus organising themselves is now well known. His closest advisors are largely people who have lost elections and have no mandate thereby allowing them the freedom of aggressive action without any repercussions at polls. Yuvraj himself winning is foregone conclusion from Amethi. I really doubt if PC or Pranab would have done this if they hadnt been completely short circuited out of the decision circuit running directly from Yuvraj to OA.

Yuvraj is trying to be the mirror opposite of his cousin. Their paths are separated by their fathers'. The un-liberated souls keep reincarnating.

Given the arrogance only a Mahabharat war can establish Dharma.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 Jan 2011 08:04

Viv S wrote:
brihaspati wrote:^^If Kashmiri "ethnicity" is so overriding - then how come the KP were not deemed part of that ethnicity! Ethnicity is not determined by religion, and genetically KP's and KM's are very very closely related.
The Kashmiri Pandit issue seems to be an escape valve. Sure go ahead include them. If tomorrow all of them were repatriated to their native towns and villages and given their previous possessions, its still a stretch to suggest all of them would welcome an influx of migrants. Also, since they'll still comprise of about 5% of the population, it wouldn't change the scenario.

Nothing to escape from : the key points is familial/clan/mutually acknowledged common origin-ancestry. Since you were so insistent on a Kashmiri sense of "ethnicity" - I simply asked whether the KP belonged to the "Kashmiri" ethnicity or not? You have taken it to another question altogether as to the effect on attitudes towards in-group migrations from outside "Kashmir" as and when KP return to the valley and become part of that "ethnicity".

Apart from religion - it would be most difficult to show other aspects of "ethnicity" as being commonly shared within the KM. They have quite elaborate long standing traditions of exclusivity and endogamy based on clans/regions/ etc. Most probably stemming from pre-Islamic restrictions. Interestingly, some KM have imported Bangladeshi Muslim brides. I have come across documentaries on this produced from BD side. A Kashmiri friend of mine from the valley [not a KP] had to choose a bride within a fixed pool of families, all hailing from a particular subregion. They traditionally would avoid "mixing" with some other "clans/subregions". My friends family also happen to be non-beef-eaters. We still joke about DN Jha's famous tome on the "myth of the holy cow".

The degree of differences within - intra-group differences as in social identity theory - among KM need not be vastly different from intra-group differences existing among other populations in other parst of India.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 27 Jan 2011 08:06

ShauryaT wrote: 1. To stop treating KM with kid gloves
2. Provide the Kashmiris with real democratic choices, which I believe paved the way for future higher rates of participation by the population in elections and an increasing focus on bread and butter issues, rather than their perceived subjugation
3. Deal with Pakistan in a manner that has a material effect on the security situation of the state. It is the deft policy management of the BJP, which increased the stakes against TSP, resulting in a meaningful reduction in the political violence rates in Kashmir, since 2002.

1. ABV became the first PM (?) to declare that talks with separatists would be "insaaniyat ke daayre mein", and NOT the standard "in the ambit of the Indian constitution"..PErsonally I thought it was a good move, trying to break away from the hackneyed, but a lot of people then thought it was "kid gloves"!

2. And the UPA govt continues the same approach towards elections..This has been a conscious approach since PVNR's time (When he annouced elections in J&K from BurkinaFaso!)..

3. the decline in violence has been a secular trend through the entire decade gone by...See here..

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?270168

A variety of international factors and Indian moves are responsible - but whatever the reasons, there is consensus in the political establishment on it...

Its quite astounding how "symbolism", "let show them their place" sort of actions now become more important than deliberate policy!

Someone earlier said that "this" yatra nonsense had the support of the "people", especially "middle class"...Well, barring the BJP, the entire political spectrum of the country opposd the yatra - that is (by last election) about 82% of vox pop..(About middle class, again as per last elections, BJP lost an overwhelming majority of urban seats..)....Why wrap political opportunism in the flag and a notion of "national" emotion?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 Jan 2011 08:07

About Hindu editorial - I guess we should modify RM's favourite phrase - "All wise men think alike", to include "All fools think that they think alike".

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 27 Jan 2011 08:10

Jurisdiction rights: NHRC, J&K govt at loggerheads

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Jurisdict ... 55053.aspx

he National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) and Jammu and Kashmir Government are at loggerheads over the right's body's jurisdiction in the trouble-torn state. Putting aside the J&K's contention that the NHRC does not have jurisdiction to issue recommendations in a case of death due to police atrocities in the state, the rights body has asserted that it does have powers to deal with such cases as its "recommendations do not interfere with any of the heads of legislation."
The controversy related to the commission's August 19, 2009 direction to the state to pay Rs5 lakh to the kin of a rickshaw puller, Mohan Lal, a victim of police atrocity. Suspected of burglaries in Jammu, Lal was picked up on June 21, 2003 by Jammu Police from Amritsar and taken to Jammu for interrogation and died after 11 days.

According to the NHRC, there was evidence to indicate that he was subjected to third degree torture during interrogation leading to his death.

Asian Centre for Human Rights Director Suhas Chakma had brought the incident to the notice of the NHRC and the commission had then asked J&K to pay compensation.

The state instead contended that the commission had failed to realise the statutory limitation in exercising its jurisdiction as Section (2) of the Protection of Human Rights Act, 1993 specifically excluded the operation of the Act to J&K in so far as it pertained to matters relatable to the entries enumerated in List II (state list) of the VII Schedule (in the instant case public law and order) of the Constitution of India.

But, the commission rejected J&K's contention on the ground that the List II contained the heads of legislation in respect of which a state legislature can make laws. It asked the state to comply with its directions by the end of February.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 27 Jan 2011 08:26

vina wrote:Kudos to Omar Abdullah's J&K govt and the Govt of India for nipping this maleficent and frankly anti-national trouble making exercise that would have had serious long term irreparable consequences if it had even marginally succeeded.

Vinaji, while the editorial is unexceptionable generally, Omar Abdullah's administrative response is not..As Ashok Malik wrote yesterday in HT, he is not a sounding board..He is a Chief minister..any number of creative administrative measures could have been taken to burst the BJP balloon...(For example, get the CRPF to hoist the flag in Lal Chowk and extend an invite to Arun Jeitley for Bakshi stadium)...He is an incompetent dynast - unfortunately not the type to be at the ehlm in a state like J&K..

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 27 Jan 2011 08:28

vina wrote:A sane editorial in The Hindu.
... troubled State of Jammu and Kashmir certainly did not need this disintegrative march by leaders of the country's principal opposition party, who seemed intent on heightening tensions and provoking violence rather than on healing wounds and restoring normality.

.... a Hindu-Muslim polarisation of the vote in its favour.

...conquer enemy territory than a march for national unity. The political target was not separatism in Kashmir but the secular foundations of India[/b].
Have to absolutely agree with the editorial. I had posted on every point the editorial has captured so well and succinctly.

Yes, at first look I thought you wrote it (all italics above are mine). I recognize the catch-phrases but do not understand the reasoning behind it. Maybe you can explain.

1) why is it disintegrative? The only people troubled are some BRFites, OA's govt and DDM. Did the LeT tone down or increase its fervour as a result? Did it reduce it's fervour last year when Tiranga was not unfurled? Apparently it was not unfurled on the clock-tower after 19 years by this govt and that Paki flag was plastered around it. That is disruptive and return to status quo of flying the flag seems integrative to me.

2) Provoking violence? Was there any other than by OA's police? Did the separatists lay down their arms in absence of the yatra? or did they still slit 9 year olds or kill 1 year olds as before? why does The Hindu think they will become pacifists if one gives in to them?

3) Hindu-Muslim polarization? just because the separatists are Islamists??? Is 'The Hindu' implying every muslim supports the separatists or is against the Tiranga at the clock tower?

4) Why the imagery of enemy territory? is it because The Hindu also senses that there is too much ground being given to the separatist?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 27 Jan 2011 08:31

RamaY wrote: Most recent example of this phenomenon can be seen in recent VC of AMU episode. Right or wrong VC of AMU openly expressed his thoughts on Narendra Modi's governance (not the individual). He had been harassed by Islamists until he took back his statement.

Ramayji, its not the VC of AMU, but the head of Deoband, Vastanvi...BJP was planning a "photo op" of Narendra Modi with the chap..Isnt it ironic that "muslim certificates" need o be from the most regressive and reactionary sections of the society? and the practitioners of "true secularism", "dharma" et al need tokenisms of the worst sort that those they acuse of "pseudo secularism" do?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 27 Jan 2011 08:39

Theo_Fidel wrote:No foreign flag is allowed. It is always taken down. Note the others arrested as well.

Others were cordially arrested but only the nationalists were brutally thrashed.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jan 2011 08:42

Pranav, Wait for pictures and reports before making charges.

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 27 Jan 2011 08:44

Making trouble, not peace and unity, was the real purpose of the Bharatiya Janata Party's Ekta Yatra to hoist the national flag at Lal Chowk in Srinagar on Republic Day. The people and the government of the troubled State of Jammu and Kashmir certainly did not need this disintegrative march by leaders of the country's principal opposition party, who seemed intent on heightening tensions and provoking violence rather than on healing wounds and restoring normality.

The Writer of the article fails to explain how the flag bearers were the trouble makers and not the ones opposing it were the trouble makers, also I haven't heard the author or his/her supporter criticizing the hoisting of Paki flag and humiliation of Indian flag at the very same place when it took place. Its absurd to say that raising the national flag will be disintegrative.

Hindutva party does not seem to tire of working for a Hindu-Muslim polarisation of the vote in its favour. Kashmir, like the Babri Masjid, is seen to be a tool for political mobilisation of Hindus across the country. Kashmir is a complex issue that admits of no straight or quick solutions. The very least a responsible political party can do is to avoid disrupting the uneasy calm that prevails in the Valley after months of street protests last year.

This statement fails to explain how flag hoisting would have created Hindu-Muslim polarization, unless the author is suggesting that somehow IMs are against the unfurling of the flag at lal chowk. Why will only the Hindus be mobilized with the flag hoisting ceremony and why patriotic IMs might not share the same sentiment. The question for the author and his/her supporter is if its not their personal bias then why is it being perceived that Hindus and Muslims will get divided over this issue. It is certainly possible that this might have brought lots of patriotic Hindus and Muslims together which might have been the purpose of this Ekta yatra, to bring patriotic Indians closer and make them aware of whats going on in J&K. I fail to understand the underlying logic behind the statement that this was only to garner Hindu votes, won't lots of patriotic Indians from all faiths be agreeing with the concept of this Ekta yatra. Similarly lots of patriotic Indians are against also this yatra. But the way the author suggests that only Hindu's will like this idea and support BJP shows malice and hidden agenda. Also, how does bending over our back for separatist's demands show the Govt as a responsible Govt or any party as a responsible political party. Again the assumption seems to be that every resident of the valley would have protested this move or would have protested against the flag hoisting.

looked more like an expedition to conquer enemy territory than a march for national unity. The political target was not separatism in Kashmir but the secular foundations of India.

Thousands of people galvanized against separatist's threats, when did they threated the people of Kashmir.

Sushma Swaraj, one of the expeditionary leaders, outlined how the BJP intended politically to use the stopping of the yatra: while those who burnt the national flag were being given security, she said, those who held up the tricolour were being arrested. Such oft-repeated confrontational tactics offer limited purchase. An opposition party would be expected to concentrate on issues that resonate with the people.

The author is claiming that the burning of flag did not impacted Indians or this idea does not resonates with Indians. What is the basis of this claim, it resonates with me and I am sure I can find many other Indians sharing the same sentiment. There is no way to tell right now what majority of Indians think or feel about it, again a biased opinion pulled out from the Mussharaff of the author.

Interestingly, the BJP's own allies have seen through the latest misadventure. Bihar Chief Minister and Janata Dal (United) leader Nitish Kumar, who runs a coalition government with the BJP, saw no meaning in the yatra in view of the situation in the Valley. Surely, if the BJP turns a deaf ear to friends and foes alike, it will find itself isolated on key issues. Its interests would be served by learning to look ahead instead of repeating old discredited tricks. Any further attempt to make political capital of the travails of the people of Jammu and Kashmir would be worse than a crime — it would be a historic blunder.

The same allies seem to agree when the PM says that the first right of the resources of this country goes to only one community, should BJP also tow that line. How about any further attempt by the ruling party to play against the sentiments and national interests of this country would be a historic blunder.

Self Edited... Added few more thoughts

arjunm · Post by **arjunm** » 27 Jan 2011 08:55

SwamyG wrote:
Viv S wrote:Bashing 'Hindutva' does not equal bashing 'the Hindu'. And IMHO 'Hindu terror' may indeed end up being a bigger threat than SIMI or Pak-based terror organisations because it has a vastly bigger cheer-leading squad. Well goody gumdrops, whaddya know... were already swerving off the topic. We can resume on a more appropriate thread if you'll lead the way.
Classic. Since you bring this here anyway.....why don't you lead the way by listing why you think so? You did it either here, or can write in the off-topic thread.

Viv S, my man you need to experience in person before your prophetic generalisation about the Hindus tha keep frothing through out your mouth. Since probably you are educated enough about our ancestral history, how many times you find out that even, as majority, Hindus use barbaric force to overpower any other non-Hindus or subjugate them in oblivious way to accept their legion of faith. Do not forget that Hindus in India are the majority those who were repeatedly persecuted by the minorities, even though majority Hindus gave equal space in the society, unlike any other countries in the world. When people like you make such comments it shows your perversive mind set and your deliberate attempt to ignore history and our evolution as of now. It is our legendary Hindu tolerance empowered you to believe that you can get away with such outrageous comments and probably feel good about it. As I started to know some history of the contemporary world and human survival, we exactly know where it is coming from to squeeze more space. We, my ancestors, represent many Hindus who happened to be subjected under ruthless Isalmic terror, and ultimately had to flee,like the KP, to save the human dignity for a better beginning. Problem with India that the real History is too dark and bloody unlike other nation Hindus never put their history right , we started to belive the fraud as we let it hijackedhijacked by paid criminal historians who worked for the non-Hindus to hide the real ugly historical facts to look after the interest of the minorities to legalise their un-apologetic acceptance in our society. Now I am a US citizen , this would be my third country of residence in my such a young age but I want to assure you, I am no more a Hindu without a country, and want to sponsor your family to go to leave any such places like Karachi or in Chittagong or may be in Degnaga in West Bengal and experience in reality how the Hindu interest and their right of living being repeatedly violated even in India, a so called majority Hindu nation.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 Jan 2011 08:59

vina wrote:Kudos to Omar Abdullah's J&K govt and the Govt of India for nipping this maleficent and frankly anti-national trouble making exercise that would have had serious long term irreparable consequences if it had even marginally succeeded.

Omar Abdullah Zindabad!

Man Mohan Singh Zindabad!!!!

Rahul Gandhi ZINDABAD!!!!!

Now that OA and MMS successfully defeated anti-national, fascist, hindu-terror outfit BJP's attempt to create long term irreparable consequences, we can expect them to

- Win hearts and minds of Kashmiri Muslims in summer as soon as the snow melts 2011
- Achieve J&K integration with rest of India by next year 2012
- Make India member of Organization of Islamic Countries and leader of Ummah by 2013
- Make India next super power by next general elections in 2014

and vina-saar will be our next interior minister

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 27 Jan 2011 09:03

Trouble-making in Kashmir

Making trouble, not peace and unity, was the real purpose of the Bharatiya Janata Party's Ekta Yatra to hoist the national flag at Lal Chowk in Srinagar on Republic Day.

How does the editor know this. Did anyone come and tell him!

Hoisting national flag causes trouble means the editor is battling for anti nationals. shame on the editor.

The people and the government of the troubled State of Jammu and Kashmir certainly did not need this disintegrative march by leaders of the country's principal opposition party, who seemed intent on heightening tensions and provoking violence rather than on healing wounds and restoring normality.

Is he the spokesperson of the separatists. only the separatists did not like Indian flag in lal chowk. Really disgusting that he supports separatists. No sane Indian will oppose hoisting of Indian flag.

In the face of a potentially explosive situation, the law-enforcing authorities in Jammu and Kashmir had no choice but to stop the yatra at Lakhanpur and arrest the leaders.

Note the key word- Potentially explosive situation- who are the contestants- nationalists and separatists. who is backing the separatists. The editor is supporting the separatists.

Clearly, the BJP wanted to use the Kashmir Valley as another stage for furthering its communal agenda; the political dividends were to come from elsewhere in the country.

Hoisting a national flag is communal agenda to these worthies.

when some one wears red glasses everything looks red.

For all its talk of making corruption and governance the key issues in its poll campaign, the Hindutva party does not seem to tire of working for a Hindu-Muslim polarisation of the vote in its favour. Kashmir, like the Babri Masjid, is seen to be a tool for political mobilisation of Hindus across the country.

Disgusting way of doing == between kashmir and Ayodhya issue which is not connected. l Note how he uses babri masjid instead of Ram Janmabhoomi. he could have used BM-RJM or Ayodhya issue.Look how the editorial brings his divisiveness to the fore.

Kashmir is a complex issue that admits of no straight or quick solutions. The very least a responsible political party can do is to avoid disrupting the uneasy calm that prevails in the Valley after months of street protests last year.

kashmir is complex because of mishandling by the govt. who helped the street protests last year. Even now uneasy calm prevails means that separatists have their nests inside the govt with love making in full flow.peace will be disturbed if nationalists will unfurl the flag.The editor side tracks this question. how convenient to shift the blame. Does the editor speak for the real Indian?

As it neared Jammu and Kashmir, the yatra, which set off on January 12 from Kolkata, looked more like an expedition to conquer enemy territory than a march for national unity.

How neatly the editor says that J&K is an enemy territory. The editor is confused- he says earlier that kashmir = ayodhya, communal, now he says a march to national unity.

The political target was not separatism in Kashmir but the secular foundations of India. Sushma Swaraj, one of the expeditionary leaders, outlined how the BJP intended politically to use the stopping of the yatra: while those who burnt the national flag were being given security, she said, those who held up the tricolour were being arrested.

seriously the editor is getting all confused using terms like communal enemy territory secular foundations , expedition. wanting to throw all terms hoping something will stick on the opposition party. pathetic.
It is a serious question -- separatists who burnt the national flag were given security and those who wanted to hoist the flag were beaten and arrested-- shows the divisive nature of the govt. also communal bent. really sad state of affairs.

An opposition party would be expected to concentrate on issues that resonate with the people.

That is what the oppostion party is doing. It was a resounding success that Indians came to know about the divisive politics of the govt. The govt will not be able to do things on the sly. It is on the spot. Great move to help the nationalism irrespective of what editor says.

Interestingly, the BJP's own allies have seen through the latest misadventure. Bihar Chief Minister and Janata Dal (United) leader Nitish Kumar, who runs a coalition government with the BJP, saw no meaning in the yatra in view of the situation in the Valley. Surely, if the BJP turns a deaf ear to friends and foes alike, it will find itself isolated on key issues

This is pure politicking. Allies did not prevent or create obstacles to the yatra. many participated and govt of the states looked benignly on these people. there was indirect support. the reason was the allies would be mercilessly massacred in front of the muslims/christains etc as anti minorities. they would be painted as anti minorities. OTOH it was a masterstroke because if allies had joined surely lumpen elements from the oldest party would attempted violence. this would have been carried by partisan media and communal fights would have erupted due to it. Thanks to allies this did not occur.

Its interests would be served by learning to look ahead instead of repeating old discredited tricks.

the oppostion party is trying to look ahead and prevent any dilation of hold on J&K irrespective of holding onto power. it knows this may get negative publicity and negative votes but still it did what did as any nationalist would have done. it brought the kashmir piss talk in front. the govt would be hard pressed not to dilute the hold on J&K. nationalist voice have been strenghtened. thanks to the yatra.

Any further attempt to make political capital of the travails of the people of Jammu and Kashmir would be worse than a crime — it would be a historic blunder.

editor should kindly read the history, not from marxist sources but the real one.

Overall a hatchet job with no real content. he clearly shows sides when a newspaper should write objectively and dispassionately about the country. he should see India as one and united not divided. If only he had the b@lls. :sigh:
These editors have no self respect as Indians. No wonder there are SLIME/DIE or RANDI whatever you want to call them.

India

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Jan 2011 09:04

R-day passes off peacefully in Srinagar

SRINAGAR: Amid a virtual lockdown of Srinagar, Republic Day celebrations passed off peacefully throughout the Kashmir Valley. Police arrested Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) chairman Yasin Malik and 17 supporters, and detained seven Bharatiya Janata Party activists.

With the move by the BJP to culminate its Ekta Yatra by hoisting the tricolour at Lal Chowk here, and the counter-move by the JKLF to hoist its own flag, authorities sealed the city centre from all sides and did not allow even mediapersons to enter the area.

Barricades with sharp concertina wire were erected on Tuesday evening and all entry routes to Lal Chowk sealed. The clock tower was the main point of attraction for the BJP and the JKLF to show their strength.

Even as Mr. Malik, Hurriyat leader Bilal Lone, and 16 others appeared from a corner at Lal Chowk chanting pro-freedom slogans, the police stopped them and bundled them into their vehicles. Mr. Malik and others had been hiding in the area.

Police also detained seven BJP activists who tried to break the cordon with the tricolour in their hands. They were severely thrashed and taken to the police station.

Only the local unit of the CRPF stationed at Lal Chowk unfurled the tricolour, which officials said was a routine practice.

Ramana-garu, the bolded part confirms the worst fears of Pranav and other BRFites here...

Am still curious as to why is it that even the 1-2 odd persons who made it to Lal Chowk were not allowed to even display the flag? Will even a display of the flag cause the KMs to go beserk ( as per GoI logic)?

The GoI/ OA could have sent a meassage across by allowing the single person to hoist the flag for 2 mins and then get back but even that was not allowed and the visuals showing the flag being snatched from him as if it were a Paki flag!!!

Really disheartening ( of course, reading the supporting reasons ebing given is even more depressing but hey, this is the same forum where we had atleast 4-5 guys even defend SeS as Chankian when even the INC wasnt able to do so)

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 27 Jan 2011 09:07

-deleted-
OT

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 Jan 2011 09:13

somnath wrote:
RamaY wrote: Most recent example of this phenomenon can be seen in recent VC of Deoband episode. Right or wrong VC of Deoband openly expressed his thoughts on Narendra Modi's governance (not the individual). He had been harassed by Islamists until he took back his statement.
Ramayji, its not the VC of AMU, but the head of Deoband, Vastanvi...BJP was planning a "photo op" of Narendra Modi with the chap..Isnt it ironic that "muslim certificates" need o be from the most regressive and reactionary sections of the society? and the practitioners of "true secularism", "dharma" et al need tokenisms of the worst sort that those they acuse of "pseudo secularism" do?

Thanks for the correction! It is not tokenism though as you think.

Mr. Vastanvi is not accepted in to the fold even after surrendering his mind to the ideology. He will not be left alone even after he quits his post.

I presume you are talking about this.

Reports in some Urdu newspapers said the vice-chancellor had been officially invited by the Gujarat government to attend the Republic Day parade as a special guest and also the BJP minority cell of Gujarat had plans to felicitate him further antagonized the students' union.

Of course BJP minority cell would felicitate him as they are a political party and they would invite any individual who shows a mind of his own. You are stretching it too far.

There is nothing wrong in you disliking BJP. But is this dignified?

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Jan 2011 09:16

Omar Abdullah Zindabad!

Man Mohan Singh Zindabad!!!!

Rahul Gandhi ZINDABAD!!!!!

Now that OA and MMS successfully defeated anti-national, fascist, hindu-terror outfit BJP's attempt to create long term irreparable consequences, we can expect them to

- Win hearts and minds of Kashmiri Muslims in summer as soon as the snow melts 2011
- Achieve J&K integration with rest of India by next year 2012
- Make India member of Organization of Islamic Countries and leader of Ummah by 2013
- Make India next super power by next general elections in 2014

Also designing a new flag for J&K since the junta in Srinagar seem to have Khujli at the sight of the tricolour? Or maybe as long as non-loony, non-fascists like the CPM/INC/IUML/MiM ( of secular Owaisi saab)/ PFI do a similar tricolour march after winning over the "hearts and minds", it should be Ok.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 Jan 2011 09:17

^ Sum garu,

That would require changing INC flag also

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 27 Jan 2011 09:19

@Vina

Have to absolutely agree with the editorial. I had posted on every point the editorial has captured so well and succinctly. 1) It looks and feels like a expedition out to capture "enemy" territory 2)It's politics is rotten to the core and just by wrapping your self in the national flag , you can't edify it 3) It is the same one trip pony show of the BJP (Rath Yathra and Riots politics) all at the cost of the social fabric of India and finally it would be a terrible-terrible disaster and an utterly unrecoverable one at that if the BJP pushes this line of confrontation and it is allowed to even remotely succeed in that.

1) Do you mean to say J&K is enemy territory.
2) Nothing prevents other parties to wrap oneself in the national flag. if they are ashamed then at least allow someone else to do it. Only proud Indians know the value of the tiranga. It is like -- what does a donkey know about the smell of sandalwood.
3) congress perfected the art of riots and communal politics. read history. latest is telangana.

Kudos to Omar Abdullah's J&K govt and the Govt of India for nipping this maleficent and frankly anti-national trouble making exercise that would have had serious long term irreparable consequences if it had even marginally succeeded.

Trying to hoisting national flag after passing thru 11 states without any violence with all sections of Indians participating in it is anti national!!. No wonder separatists are still inside India, harming us in every way.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 27 Jan 2011 09:28

RamaY wrote:Of course BJP minority cell would felicitate him as they are a political party and they would invite any individual who shows a mind of his own. You are stretching it too far.

There is nothing wrong in you disliking BJP. But is this dignified?

What is "undignified" RamaYji? I am only pointing out how BJP is one with the other political parties in India is coveting the patronisation of the most reactionary, obscurantist elements in a community..

Deoband represents the "social trough", in their ideology, outlook and everything else..Not too dissimilar to the RSS

in many ways...A bunch of semi-educated loonies holding forth on issues ranging from politics to personal laws to foreign policy! And political parties pander to these guys as if THEY represent the community...that is what is undignified, and BJP then is as hypocritical as Mulayam Yadav or INC are in talking of "progressive politics"...

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 27 Jan 2011 09:30

krisna wrote: India

Dont..Majority of Indians would be "SLIME/DIE or RANDI" - using your definitions..But we are doing very well, thank you very much..

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 27 Jan 2011 09:33

somnath wrote: Dont..Majority of Indians would be "SLIME/DIE or RANDI" - using your definitions..But we are doing very well, thank you very much..

Really? So you have results of some survey/referendum, right?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jan 2011 09:36

It was bad day for politics in India when Swatantra party was destroyed by these very media under MRs G's tutelage. They called them CIA spies etc.
What that did was remove any liberal Opposition. Having destroyed it now they are mad that others rally around nationalism which makes their own rally around Deracination an empty void.
----------------
Ssum, Note the BJP members were thrashed while the separatists led by Hurriyat were arrested without same treatment. One reason why BJP leaders wanted to be their when their members were at the flag raising was to prevent this high handed police action. It was not just grand standing.

Note the very Hindu which posted that editorial is publishing the news report.

I wonder if "Hindu" editor will change the paper to "Secular".

ajit_tr · Post by **ajit_tr** » 27 Jan 2011 09:40

No need for jihad in J&K, avers Azad Kashmir student

A feel of India:A special guest at the Republic Day celebrations at Rajouri in Jammu and Kashmir, Faisal Iqbal, a student from Azad Kashmir, is greeted by J&K Industries Minister S.S. Salathia.

SRINAGAR: A student from Azad Kashmir on Wednesday joined Republic Day celebrations at Rajouri, and was all praise for the Indian democracy.

A student of political science at Mirpur University, Faisal Iqbal, now visiting relatives in Jammu and Kashmir, expressed a desire to witness the celebrations and the administration extended a formal invitation, said G.A. Khawaja, Deputy Commissioner, Rajouri. He was introduced to Industries Minister S.S. Salathia, chief guest at the function held at the district headquarters.

Mr. Iqbal told journalists that he was highly impressed with the celebrations and wanted to see such things in Pakistan too. “We have not enjoyed any Constitution so far in our country; the question of celebrations does not arise at all,” he was quoted as saying.

August 14 is celebrated as Independence Day in Pakistan.

Rajouri journalist Shafiq Mir told The Hindu that Mr. Iqbal felt elated at being “invited as a special guest.”

Impressed with the celebrations, he suggested that more people from , especially youth, be invited to attend such functions. He said he would share his experience with his friends back home and tell them that there was no need for any “jihad” in Jammu and Kashmir, “as people enjoy democracy and liberty here.”

“I am student of political science, and I can well understand that the participation of common masses in such functions indicates that they are happy with their system,” he said.

“We were told there that Indian forces had occupied Jammu and Kashmir but the people are against it. But I am surprised to see that every child is dancing on his/her own, and they are enjoying the day like a festival.”

Mr. Iqbal said people from both sides should sit together and understand each other. Both governments “should allow free movement of Kashmiris across the LoC, and people themselves will decide which side is better.”

Every week scores of people from both sides have been crossing the LoC, between Poonch and Rawlakot and between Srinagar and Muzaffarabad, since a bus service was launched in April 2005.

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 27 Jan 2011 09:41

somnath wrote: 1. ABV became the first PM (?) to declare that talks with separatists would be "insaaniyat ke daayre mein", and NOT the standard "in the ambit of the Indian constitution"..PErsonally I thought it was a good move, trying to break away from the hackneyed, but a lot of people then thought it was "kid gloves"!

2. And the UPA govt continues the same approach towards elections..This has been a conscious approach since PVNR's time (When he annouced elections in J&K from BurkinaFaso!)..

Somnath Ji since you want to bring ABV into this and how he started all the appeasement, then let me remind you how Nehru handled the Kashmir issue, and the precursor to the insurgency in Kashmir was the mishandling of 1987 Kashmir elections by the current ruling party. So before we started discussing ABV's action we need to look who originated this whole issue.

Its quite astounding how "symbolism", "let show them their place" sort of actions now become more important than deliberate policy!

Please enlighten me what deliberate policy you are talking about. Wasn't this deliberate policy existing when the flag was getting hoisted in lal chowk earlier. How do you conclude that the same age old policy is still being followed by the current government. And if actually the so called deliberate policy is being followed then why are the back channel negotiations so opaque that even the main opposition party is raising questions about it

.

Someone earlier said that "this" yatra nonsense had the support of the "people", especially "middle class"...Well, barring the BJP, the entire political spectrum of the country opposd the yatra - that is (by last election) about 82% of vox pop..(About middle class, again as per last elections, BJP lost an overwhelming majority of urban seats..)....Why wrap political opportunism in the flag and a notion of "national" emotion?

Well in India a leader is not selected by 100% vote does he. Mere 50%+ votes are enough to get him/her elected. And all those 50%+ people might not be supportive of each and every move of that elected party/representative. So quoting 82% out of thin air hain ji?? There are chances that people supporting BJPs move may be more than the entire population of Jammu and Kashmir.

vina · Post by **vina** » 27 Jan 2011 09:46

It is a serious question -- separatists who burnt the national flag were given security and those who wanted to hoist the flag were beaten and arrested-- shows the divisive nature of the govt. also communal ben

I have always maintained that the BJP is a one trick pony (Rath and Riots routine) and more bizzare, is that even the rhetoric keeps repeating endlessly in a loop like a stuck LP record.

Consider that stuff by Sushma Swaraj. Jail for people trying to hoist the "dhwaj" and Security for people burning the tri color. Where did we hear it earlier ?.

It was during the Charaar-e-Sharif (I think) stand off during the Narasimha Rao govt. The BJP and Advani flush from the inferno of the Ayodhya Rath Yatra piped up .

"Kar Sevak ke liye goli , aur Atankvadi ke like Biryani!" Just look back to see how far that line took the BJP electorally or otherwise.

People are not as dumb as the BJP thinks they are. Rao learnt from the Golden Temple action where the army was sent in (which had terrible and serious long term consequences, the effects and wounds took around 25 years to heal and many would argue can never heal for those who suffered, esp the lack of justice for the Sikh victims of the 1984 riots) and handled a similar situation well and tactfully. No Kashmiri Muslim blames the GOI for that incident! It is not even a memory now. It was a far better thing to do than send the army in and have Golden Temple like consequences. What does the BJP do ? Act responsibly ?. No sir, just like now, we got wild rhetoric back then too.

vish_mulay · Post by **vish_mulay** » 27 Jan 2011 09:49

ajit_tr did you change POK to azad? the posted link dose not mention azad any where. TIA

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 Jan 2011 09:51

somnath wrote: What is "undignified" RamaYji? I am only pointing out how BJP is one with the other political parties in India is coveting the patronisation of the most reactionary, obscurantist elements in a community..

Deoband represents the "social trough", in their ideology, outlook and everything else..Not too dissimilar to the RSS in many ways...A bunch of semi-educated loonies holding forth on issues ranging from politics to personal laws to foreign policy! And political parties pander to these guys as if THEY represent the community...that is what is undignified, and BJP then is as hypocritical as Mulayam Yadav or INC are in talking of "progressive politics"...

The undignified part is that you are comparing

BJP's invite to Vastanvi (who is opposing the "social trough" in their ideology) to attend Republic Day celebration

WITH

INC's history of making political alliances with that "social trough".

Don't you see the fallacy?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 27 Jan 2011 09:55

The BJP should go to court even if only to clarify when the "banishment" punishment can be used. It will come in handy to deal with the Karnataka governor who seems hell bent on inciting violence in that state.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 27 Jan 2011 09:55

vina wrote:It was during the Charaar-e-Sharif (I think) stand off during the Narasimha Rao govt. The BJP and Advani flush from the inferno of the Ayodhya Rath Yatra piped up

It was during the Hazratbal affair...Yes, it was handled quite well - the then guvner, Gen Krishna Rao, wrote about it in his memoirs (obviously in adulatory terms)...

ramana wrote:It was bad day for politics in India when Swatantra party was destroyed by these very media under MRs G's tutelage. They called them CIA spies etc.

+1..Swatantra Party was the only honest attempt at a non-parochial, right wing party based on liberal values...Wonder what people like Minoo Masani and Pilloo Modi and above all, Rajaji will think of the current crowd of right wingers..The same Rajaji whose views on Kahsmir would term him as a "RAPE/DIE" whatever else by some definitions!

abhishek_sharma wrote:Really? So you have results of some survey/referendum, right?

Pick up any socio-economic variable - compare numbers between 1990, 2000, 2010..Juxtapose the same numbers from the other developing nations...You will get your answer..

Sidhantji, the issue is not of comparing ABV and Nehru, MMs etc.the simple issue is that successive governments have had a reasonably consistent way to handling the Kashmir problem...and defined bottomlines...And 82% isnt out of thin air - 18%is the share of votes nationally that BJP got in the last elections..

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 Jan 2011 09:55

vish_mulay wrote:ajit_tr did you change POK to azad? the posted link dose not mention azad any where. TIA

He did and we know why. Request Admins to make note so the news paper doesn't come after BRF.

The original article says this

No need for jihad in J&K, avers PoK student

A feel of India:A special guest at the Republic Day celebrations at Rajouri in Jammu and Kashmir, Faisal Iqbal, a student from Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, is greeted by J&K Industries Minister S.S. Salathia.

SRINAGAR: A student from Pakistan-occupied Kashmir on Wednesday joined Republic Day celebrations at Rajouri, and was all praise for the Indian democracy.

A student of political science at Mirpur University, Faisal Iqbal, now visiting relatives in Jammu and Kashmir, expressed a desire to witness the celebrations and the administration extended a formal invitation, said G.A. Khawaja, Deputy Commissioner, Rajouri. He was introduced to Industries Minister S.S. Salathia, chief guest at the function held at the district headquarters.

Mr. Iqbal told journalists that he was highly impressed with the celebrations and wanted to see such things in Pakistan too. “We have not enjoyed any Constitution so far in our country; the question of celebrations does not arise at all,” he was quoted as saying.

August 14 is celebrated as Independence Day in Pakistan.

Rajouri journalist Shafiq Mir told The Hindu that Mr. Iqbal felt elated at being “invited as a special guest.”

Impressed with the celebrations, he suggested that more people from PoK, especially youth, be invited to attend such functions. He said he would share his experience with his friends back home and tell them that there was no need for any “jihad” in Jammu and Kashmir, “as people enjoy democracy and liberty here.”

“I am student of political science, and I can well understand that the participation of common masses in such functions indicates that they are happy with their system,” he said.
...

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 27 Jan 2011 09:58

somnath wrote: Pick up any socio-economic variable - compare numbers between 1990, 2000, 2010..Juxtapose the same numbers from the other developing nations...You will get your answer..

I thought you will ask me to "read more", "study more" and "go to the library". This is pretty good too. Great job! Another addition to your long list of "distinguished arguments".