MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36415
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 11 Jan 2011 19:47

khan strategy is always denial (sanctions) and introduce viruses (Iran nuke plant to Boeing bugs) to programs they don't like or not part of its grand strategy. they would want everyone to be like pakis so that get all leverage.

some of it may be a genuine or likeable strategy for our doctrine, but in essence, does not bode well yindoo ones. if mrca does not go to the khans, i am sure many would be happy. unfortunately khans carry a bunch of potent and advanced weapons that makes our mil drool and have our babooze succumb to various political strategies, especially considering a blind khan friendly ruling GoI.

khan can be friendly in defensive system as long as we have total control over the use and integration of stores for other types we may want to have in the future.

hillary c has clearly said what things are going to be per their strategy and it can't be ours alone even with gov-gov deals. so, our mil folks need to think a lot before they sign up for such a large handle on our most important purchase.

--

ps: and ddm folks especially those nasty ToIlet ones need to note this, and support indigenous programs rather blast them at every chance they get. these ddm folks are numero uno traitors for the country.

shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby shukla » 11 Jan 2011 20:10


Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4383
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Cain Marko » 11 Jan 2011 23:34

It was not too long ago that the EADS chaps were marketing the Captor for the Tejas. IIRC, the colonel had some report on this on his blog. So, if LRDE can't come up with the AESA on its own or if the Israeli option is not a certainty, perhaps EADS will come forth. Especially, if their bird wins the race.

CM

shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby shukla » 12 Jan 2011 00:00

Rafael pitches Litening pod for India's fighter contest
Flightglobal

Israel's Rafael has intensified a marketing push to get its Litening G-4 targeting pod on board whichever aircraft eventually wins the Indian air force's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition

The companies are now working together in the Indian market to brief defence establishment figures on the Litening G-4 and how it would interface with the various aircraft bidding for the MMRCA contract.

Separately, Rafael says several air forces are negotiating to buy its Reccelite real-time intelligence and reconnaissance system, following its recent operational performance in Afghanistan.

"The forces there learned that the capabilities of this system and its ground station enable them to detect ambushes and other threats, like improvised explosive devices in almost real time by a fast comparison of the images captured by the system," says Rafael executive vice-president marketing Lova Drori.

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Viv S » 12 Jan 2011 00:27

Amitabh wrote:Flightglobal: Israel blocks AESA radar export to India (due US pressure)

Washington's position is driven by an assumption that exporting IAI's advanced radar would undermine the sale of US-made systems on the international stage, sources say.


Despite the fact that this comes from a reputed source, I wouldn't take the news at face value.

For one, to the best of my knowledge the US isn't offering any AESA options for the Tejas. And the EL/M-2052 has no other customers. Blocking it for the Gripen to get a leg up in the MRCA competition is understandable, but doing so for the Tejas makes little sense.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby NRao » 12 Jan 2011 06:14



ONLY if an Israeli AESA is allowed in any Indian air craft.

shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby shukla » 12 Jan 2011 10:21

With all the news of the EF and Rafale on top, US continues diplomatic push..

US bats for its fighter aircraft makers
Sify

Ahead of a high technology business development trade mission to India, US Commerce Secretary Gary Locke has advocated for US fighter aircraft manufacturers saying the US is a willing and capable defence partner. Locke, who would lead the trade mission to India from Feb 6-11, told Indian Ambassador Meera Shankar at a meeting here Tuesday that the US government views high technology defence sales as a cornerstone of the US-India strategic partnership.:rotfl:

Two US planes, Lockheed Martin's F-16 and Boeing's F/A-18 are competing with Russian MiG-RAC's MiG-35, French Dassault's Rafale, Swedish Saab's Gripen and European consortium EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon for a $10 billion deal for 126 fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force. The tendering process for the 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), initiated in August 2007, has entered its final phase after the IAF carried out the flight and weapons evaluation of the six competing aircraft for what has been described as the 'mother of all deals'.


So stop the rest of the world from making high tech sales to us & then pretend to be sincere in selling it to us.. nice.. :x SH used to be top of my fav list but its not even on the list. Go EF/Grip/Rafale..

GeorgeWelch
BRFite
Posts: 1393
Joined: 12 Jun 2009 09:31

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby GeorgeWelch » 12 Jan 2011 11:14

shukla wrote:So stop the rest of the world from making high tech sales to us & then pretend to be sincere in selling it to us.. nice.. :x SH used to be top of my fav list but its not even on the list. Go EF/Grip/Rafale..


I guess you missed when France pulled the rug out from under the Gripen?

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,186678,00.html

Meanwhile, a spat between France and Sweden is developing. In 2007, Saab struck a deal with Thales to provide an AESA antenna for the Gripen Demo program, to be mated with the signal processor from the JAS 39C's Saab PS-05 MSA radar. The Thales AESA replaced the passive-scan antenna of Rafale's RBE2.

But three things happened: Thales and Dassault were given the go-ahead to develop and produce the AESA for Rafale; Dassault has taken a large shareholding in Thales; and the Gripen NG has emerged—in India and Brazil—as a competitor to Rafale. Thales will honor the Gripen Demo contract but its AESA will not be available for a production NG.


Of course it's a high-stakes competition, so every country will do what it can to secure an advantage.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Singha » 12 Jan 2011 13:05

is thales backing out why the production NG is a Selex front end + Ericsson-Saab back end ?
selex is a UK-Italy combine and is working for the Raven radar of NG and a new aesa for the UK eurofighters (not captor-E)
the Raven ES-05A is claimed a 100' scan angle (via swatchplate) and 1000 tr modules. should be a natural fit for LRDE partner if they are willing to play ball.

this radar should handily outperform the APG-68v9 radars on PAF F-16 which is likely to remain the best radar in pak hands for quite a while, so no worries there. ofcourse the pakis might buy the selex-galileo vixen aesa radar and fit that on their J-10s at a later date.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20711
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Philip » 12 Jan 2011 14:36

The reason why the US has "blackballed" the Elta-2-52 is because this AESA radar could very well have been an option on the MIG-35! The SU-30MKIs with a mix of French,Israeli and Indian avionics showed the US that for India it was a "win-win" situ.A Russian-Israeli offer on the MIG-35 ,using the platform for Israeli AESA radars,plus Israeli AAMs and weaponry,Litening pods,etc.,could've been unbeatable from technical and cost factors,apart from the hard lobbying of both countries.The US is using every dirty trick in the book to bend the GOI into buying a US aircraft.Dr.Singh might "sing" for Uncle Sam as is his wont,but there are others in the cabinet/GOP/MOD/IAF/MEA who are wary of a US bird for such a critical and sensitive weapon system (transports,patrol aircraft are OK),because of the US's support or Pak no matter what chicanery and devilry it perpetrates against India."Strategic partnership" with the US to these elements with the establishment has its limits.

paramyog
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 29
Joined: 04 Aug 2010 15:13

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby paramyog » 12 Jan 2011 15:42

Hi there...
Been away for a while..
Guys, something's been worrying me for a while.

http://www.defencetalk.com/chinese-j-20 ... ght-31257/

How deadly does this thing get for the India skies and how good will our beloved MRCA prove to be...?

amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby amit » 12 Jan 2011 16:01

paramyog wrote:Hi there...
Been away for a while..
Guys, something's been worrying me for a while.

http://www.defencetalk.com/chinese-j-20 ... ght-31257/

How deadly does this thing get for the India skies and how good will our beloved MRCA prove to be...?


Wow! Didn't know about this one. :eek:

Where did this come from?

Wickberg
BRFite
Posts: 255
Joined: 01 Jul 2008 18:45

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Wickberg » 12 Jan 2011 16:07

GeorgeWelch wrote:I guess you missed when France pulled the rug out from under the Gripen?

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,186678,00.html

Meanwhile, a spat between France and Sweden is developing. In 2007, Saab struck a deal with Thales to provide an AESA antenna for the Gripen Demo program, to be mated with the signal processor from the JAS 39C's Saab PS-05 MSA radar. The Thales AESA replaced the passive-scan antenna of Rafale's RBE2.

But three things happened: Thales and Dassault were given the go-ahead to develop and produce the AESA for Rafale; Dassault has taken a large shareholding in Thales; and the Gripen NG has emerged—in India and Brazil—as a competitor to Rafale. Thales will honor the Gripen Demo contract but its AESA will not be available for a production NG.


Of course it's a high-stakes competition, so every country will do what it can to secure an advantage.


Once again. The deal with Thales was just to get an prototype AESA for the Demo, and it worked. For the Gripen NG Thales was never considered, SAAB (and former Ericsson) has had decades of cooperation with Selex so the Raven project was a given (even before Thales contract was signed).
So no, France did not pull any rug away since there never were any rug from the start...

Gurinder P
BRFite
Posts: 209
Joined: 30 Oct 2010 18:11
Location: Beautiful British Columbia

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Gurinder P » 12 Jan 2011 17:00

paramyog wrote:Hi there...
Been away for a while..
Guys, something's been worrying me for a while.

http://www.defencetalk.com/chinese-j-20 ... ght-31257/

How deadly does this thing get for the India skies and how good will our beloved MRCA prove to be...?


I personally think we shouldn't be worried about this aircraft at its current state. Sources from defense mags state that this aircraft will be 50-80% cheaper than American or Russian 5th gen fighters. If this aircraft is that cheap, then features might be left out or be of knocked down versions. I think that our Chinese brothers and sisters probably are going for the [mass] effect strategy, thereby trying to create Xerxes army in effect. As for now, we can only speculate and I speculate that.

As for the MRCA, all six look like good options if the IAF plays its cards right. For worst case scenario, the Chinese make a beautiful 5th gen fighter, but by the time it comes into service the FGFA is already flying and different blocks will be in blueprints to combat new threats, like viruses and firewalls.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36415
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 12 Jan 2011 17:47

If two of them fight, the third one takes it away. Going by khan strategies, they can chew the b@lls of Gripen as well going by the AESA blocking news. So logistically, we have the Eu makers Ef2K, Rafale and the age old friend M35. Now, considering all eggs in Russkie basket, the time is near to chose between Ef2K and Rafale.

Sorry unkill, we all know you are p!ssed off at the ddm reports of the top two fighters selected by IAF. No wonder he slammed at Israel. He has to show off! and thank god we did not choose (for ddm) SH or that beefed up f16. This $10b is nothing for our rich unkill.. so let us warn him to stay away from this.

uddu
BRFite
Posts: 1862
Joined: 15 Aug 2004 17:09

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby uddu » 12 Jan 2011 19:08

Seeing that the Rusis are getting a further order for Su-30 MKI's it seems it can be either Typhoon or the Rafale. Now the competion between these two is going to increase.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36415
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 12 Jan 2011 19:33

You bet! they (the khans) have irked us quite a lot with that Elta ban.

GeorgeWelch
BRFite
Posts: 1393
Joined: 12 Jun 2009 09:31

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby GeorgeWelch » 12 Jan 2011 19:58

Wickberg wrote:Once again. The deal with Thales was just to get an prototype AESA for the Demo, and it worked.


True . . .

Wickberg wrote:For the Gripen NG Thales was never considered


From what I've read, it appears very much otherwise.

Wickberg wrote:the Raven project was a given (even before Thales contract was signed).


So then why exactly was the Elta ever a contender for the NG?

Things that make you go 'hmmm'.

GeorgeWelch
BRFite
Posts: 1393
Joined: 12 Jun 2009 09:31

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby GeorgeWelch » 12 Jan 2011 20:09

SaiK wrote:You bet! they (the khans) have irked us quite a lot with that Elta ban.



Assuming the report is true and not just a warmed-over rehashing of the earlier debunked report, it is not an unreasonable position that you can't use American data and American components to build a competitor to American products.

If you want to compete with our products, fine. Just don't expect our help to do it.

Wickberg
BRFite
Posts: 255
Joined: 01 Jul 2008 18:45

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Wickberg » 12 Jan 2011 20:34

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Wickberg wrote:Once again. The deal with Thales was just to get an prototype AESA for the Demo, and it worked.


True . . .

Wickberg wrote:For the Gripen NG Thales was never considered


From what I've read, it appears very much otherwise.

Wickberg wrote:the Raven project was a given (even before Thales contract was signed).


So then why exactly was the Elta ever a contender for the NG?

Things that make you go 'hmmm'.


Then please guide me to an official source that claims that Thales was considered the radar for Gripen NG.
When it comes to Elta (if) there were some talks of installing it into Gripen IN, not the NG. It was probably a request from India and SAAB tries to make the Gripen "the customers choice". For years now the Raven ES-05 is the radar offered in Gripen IN. In the future we will see the SAAB NORA radar.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Singha » 12 Jan 2011 21:22

in what ways would be NORA be superior to Raven to drive this shift?

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36415
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 12 Jan 2011 21:33

G Welch, someone said it was American funding. Now you are saying the 2052 has American data and components. Could you please substantiate these? links?

GeorgeWelch
BRFite
Posts: 1393
Joined: 12 Jun 2009 09:31

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby GeorgeWelch » 12 Jan 2011 21:36

Wickberg wrote:Then please guide me to an official source that claims that Thales was considered the radar for Gripen NG.


Of course it was never 'considered' because Thales told them it wasn't going to happen.

Wickberg wrote:When it comes to Elta (if) there were some talks of installing it into Gripen IN, not the NG.


http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/07/fl ... -much.html

Saab spokesperson Anne Lewis-Olsson has announced, "Israel was one of several options for the Gripen NG radar over a year ago but we decided to continue with other alternatives."


So again, if they were willing to consider the Elta, why wouldn't they consider the Thales, especially since it was already, you know, working on the plane?

It was probably a request from India and SAAB tries to make the Gripen "the customers choice".


And you have an official source for this piece of speculation I presume . . .

Gurneesh
BRFite
Posts: 465
Joined: 14 Feb 2010 21:21
Location: Troposphere

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Gurneesh » 12 Jan 2011 22:08

Even if 2052 is completely Israeli, the US has considerable leverage since not only does it gives around 2 - 3 billion USD each year to Israel but also provide Israel with much needed political protection for what it does in Gaza Strip. Ex. The Israeli's will get their F-35's free.

Looking at the current MMRCA field, only the teens have a working ASEA while the EF (the grapevine favorite) may well be the last to get one. So, all US is doing is making sure that it's products remain competitive, though not by making them better but by ensuring that the others look weak (atleast on paper). 10 billlion USD is just too small to ignore.

It could be said that this does not have anything to do with LCA as US now has a very important card if it wants to delay it. But then one could also argue that blocking the engine will directly be Khan's fault while the radar blocking does not put the blame directly on khan (as they can say that the radar is not American and it's upto the Israeli's to decide but simultaneously apply pressure on the Israeli's). And LCA delay will surely mean more MMRCA orders.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36415
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 12 Jan 2011 23:00

Perhaps the teens will lose the niche and they have to spend much more on raptor and jsf to keep only their forces having the best in everything. now, if tejas gets elta 2052, that might have troubles since the learning from mki's lpi radar must have given them to such positioning. It also proves the point that their next gen raytheon t/r modules are not ready yet [algan].

GeorgeWelch
BRFite
Posts: 1393
Joined: 12 Jun 2009 09:31

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby GeorgeWelch » 12 Jan 2011 23:50

Don't forget the US allowed the EL/M-2075 Phalcon (which is arguably more advanced than the 2052) to be sold to India.

And then their restrictions worked in India's favor by prohibiting export of the same to China.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8161
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Indranil » 12 Jan 2011 23:54

Lets cross the bridge when we come to it.

Don't know if we would need 2052 frontend!
If we need it, let the US object to the 2052 front end and Indian backend marriage.

So no point jumping the gun on a report IMHO :)

Wickberg
BRFite
Posts: 255
Joined: 01 Jul 2008 18:45

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Wickberg » 13 Jan 2011 00:28

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Wickberg wrote:Then please guide me to an official source that claims that Thales was considered the radar for Gripen NG.


Of course it was never 'considered' because Thales told them it wasn't going to happen.

Wickberg wrote:When it comes to Elta (if) there were some talks of installing it into Gripen IN, not the NG.


http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/07/fl ... -much.html

Saab spokesperson Anne Lewis-Olsson has announced, "Israel was one of several options for the Gripen NG radar over a year ago but we decided to continue with other alternatives."


So again, if they were willing to consider the Elta, why wouldn't they consider the Thales, especially since it was already, you know, working on the plane?

It was probably a request from India and SAAB tries to make the Gripen "the customers choice".


And you have an official source for this piece of speculation I presume . . .


You kind of contradict yourself. If SAAB wanted a Thales/SAAB radar for the Gripen NG and
Thales told them "it was´nt going to happen". Why did they continue to make a radar to
the Demo aircraft? The answer is, cause it was just gonna be in the Demo, nothing more.
A way to get a radar fast and more experience easy.
Peter Andersson, product manager at Saab Microwave Systems, said at the time;
"Our collaboration is for the Gripen demo. We will have to see what happens in the
future.” (http://forum.pakistanidefence.com/lofiv ... 75091.html)

The contract with Thales was signed in 2008 while the contract with Selex dates back to
2006. So it´s not like SAAB "had" to turn to Selex because of someone pulled the rug
away, which you seem to think.

Elta came in light mostly (only) because of the Indian tender. This solution was never
offered for Norway for instance and certainly not for Sweden. And why would they go Elta
when they were already working with Selex, a company SAAB/Ericsson have worked with for
decades.

You make it sound like a bad thing to have many choices and work with many companys.
I think it´s pretty good. If SAAB had decided in an early stage to stick with only with Elta,
or only Thales there would not be an existing AESA-radar ready for the tender to India
today.
And by working with these companies, plus Raytheon, SAAB sure has gained some valuable
experience to add to its own knowledge when it comes to AESA to put into the NORA and
other projects.

>>Singha
NORA (Not-only-a-radar)

http://www.janes.com/info/idr/articles/ ... cures.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS-05/A

GeorgeWelch
BRFite
Posts: 1393
Joined: 12 Jun 2009 09:31

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby GeorgeWelch » 13 Jan 2011 00:54

Wickberg wrote:You kind of contradict yourself. If SAAB wanted a Thales/SAAB radar for the Gripen NG and
Thales told them "it was´nt going to happen". Why did they continue to make a radar to
the Demo aircraft?


Because they had already signed the contract for the demo aircraft. They couldn't just drop out at that point.

Wickberg wrote:Elta came in light mostly (only) because of the Indian tender. This solution was never
offered for Norway for instance and certainly not for Sweden.


It was never offered to anyone because they decided to go with Selex instead.

Nevertheless, you cannot possibly explain how they could evaluate Elta but refuse to even consider Thales.

The only reason they didn't consider Thales was because it wasn't available to them.

Why wasn't it available? Because France wanted to hurt Gripen's chances of competing against the Rafale.

Wickberg
BRFite
Posts: 255
Joined: 01 Jul 2008 18:45

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Wickberg » 13 Jan 2011 01:47

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Wickberg wrote:You kind of contradict yourself. If SAAB wanted a Thales/SAAB radar for the Gripen NG and
Thales told them "it was´nt going to happen". Why did they continue to make a radar to
the Demo aircraft?


Because they had already signed the contract for the demo aircraft. They couldn't just drop out at that point.

Wickberg wrote:Elta came in light mostly (only) because of the Indian tender. This solution was never
offered for Norway for instance and certainly not for Sweden.


It was never offered to anyone because they decided to go with Selex instead.

Nevertheless, you cannot possibly explain how they could evaluate Elta but refuse to even consider Thales.

The only reason they didn't consider Thales was because it wasn't available to them.

Why wasn't it available? Because France wanted to hurt Gripen's chances of competing against the Rafale.


But I still don´t understand your logic.
SAAB teamed up with Selex in 2006. Thales and Elta was contacted a couple of years later. They have already decided for the Selex long before.

And NO, Thales was only considered for the Demo. In this link
http://forum.pakistanidefence.com/lofiv ... 75091.html you will see the official SAAB Pressrelease from that deal. It clearly states. Demo only. What are your sources?

Elta was contacted for a couple of reasons. The tender to India and whomever would have wanted Elta instead of Selex in any future deal. And cooperation is a good thing, don´t you think?

Edit: BTW, SAAB has also worked with Raython. It´s not like SAAB is going to sell Raython radars it´s all about working together and learn from each other.

GeorgeWelch
BRFite
Posts: 1393
Joined: 12 Jun 2009 09:31

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby GeorgeWelch » 13 Jan 2011 04:37

Wickberg wrote:And NO, Thales was only considered for the Demo.


I've never said otherwise.

In fact, that is exactly the point.

Why was it ONLY considered for the demo. WHY wasn't it considered for production when that time came?

Because France wouldn't allow it, that's why.

Wickberg wrote:Elta was contacted for a couple of reasons. The tender to India and whomever would have wanted Elta instead of Selex in any future deal. And cooperation is a good thing, don´t you think?


I think you are reaching with a nonsensical argument and you know it. What great advantage does Elta have over Thales in the Indian market? How would a false promise to cooperate (which is what it would be if Elta never had any chance of winning as you repeatedly state) foster any future agreements? Don't you think Elta would be rather annoyed if they were promised a chance to compete for the NG and then found out they never had a shot at all?

The problem with your argument is that you believe the agreement with Selex meant the Raven was pre-ordained to win the NG.

Not so.

Saab itself disagrees with your position. I don't know how to put it any plainer than their own spokesperson: "Israel was one of several options for the Gripen NG radar".

Are you saying that they're lying? That there never was any other option besides Raven? That this whole discussion is an elaborate plot to con the Israelis and Indians?
Last edited by GeorgeWelch on 13 Jan 2011 05:20, edited 1 time in total.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11209
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Gagan » 13 Jan 2011 04:59

Is the Gripen the real front leader in the MMRCA competition?

The IAF supposedly loves it, its cheaper than most, and massa and the others have been desperately trying to undercut it as best as they could.

Wickberg
BRFite
Posts: 255
Joined: 01 Jul 2008 18:45

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Wickberg » 13 Jan 2011 05:26

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Wickberg wrote:But I still don´t understand your logic.
SAAB teamed up with Selex in 2006. Thales and Elta was contacted a couple of years later. They have already decided for the Selex long before.


So?

Wickberg wrote:And NO, Thales was only considered for the Demo.


I've never said otherwise.

In fact, that is exactly the point.

Why was it ONLY considered for the demo. WHY wasn't considered for production when that time came?

Because France wouldn't allow it, that's why.

Wickberg wrote:Elta was contacted for a couple of reasons. The tender to India and whomever would have wanted Elta instead of Selex in any future deal. And cooperation is a good thing, don´t you think?


I think you are reaching with a nonsensical argument and you know it. What great advantage does Elta have over Thales in the Indian market? How would a false promise to cooperate (which is what it would be if Elta never had any chance of winning as you repeatedly state) foster any future agreements? Don't you think Elta would be rather annoyed if they were promised a chance to compete for the NG and then found out they never had a shot at all?

The problem with your argument is that you believe the agreement with Selex meant the Raven was pre-ordained to win the NG.

Not so.

Saab itself disagrees with your position. I don't know how to put it any plainer than their own spokesperson: "Israel was one of several options for the Gripen NG radar".

Are you saying that they're lying? That there never was any other option besides Raven? That this whole discussion is an elaborate plot to con the Israelis and Indians?


Thales was only meant for the Demo because it flew the same year and SAAB wanted an AESA radar fast to put in to demonstrate the capabilities to potential buyers. The Selex/SAAB was still a couple of years to go. It was never intended to go into the NG, simple as that. If Thales and Rafale wants it to sound different is just buisness, you still have´nt provided a source to prove that point.
Yes, Elta was one of the options for the Gripen NG to India, if India would have preferred that option. What advantages it would have for India? Are you kidding me? What radar is the LCA suppose to have? Which country have India in recent time have several armsdeals with?

For any other country the Gripen NG have been pitched the Selex/SAAB radar have been the obvious choice.

johnny_m
BRFite
Posts: 176
Joined: 08 Dec 2008 16:12

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby johnny_m » 13 Jan 2011 06:04

Is the Gripen the real front leader in the MMRCA competition?

The IAF supposedly loves it, its cheaper than most, and massa and the others have been desperately trying to undercut it as best as they could.


Sweden's lack of politcal clout is its biggest handicap. The second problem is its engine being American, but our babus decided that is fine for the LCA as well.

I for one no longer cares who wins the MRCA even the MIG 35 is fine just get it over and done with and have them inducted. With the J 20 coming into Chicom service none of them are going to be good enough for the Chinese front and all of them are more than enough for the Paki front.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8161
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Indranil » 13 Jan 2011 06:29

^^^ Pleas don't be so reactive to a prototype in the air. Its not the end of the world. It is but just a plane.

GeorgeWelch
BRFite
Posts: 1393
Joined: 12 Jun 2009 09:31

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby GeorgeWelch » 13 Jan 2011 06:57

Wickberg wrote:Thales was only meant for the Demo because it flew the same year and SAAB wanted an AESA radar fast to put in to demonstrate the capabilities to potential buyers.


How is putting a completely different radar from the final product supposed to demonstrate anything?

Wickberg wrote:you still have´nt provided a source to prove that point.


Sure I did

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,186678,00.html

Meanwhile, a spat between France and Sweden is developing. In 2007, Saab struck a deal with Thales to provide an AESA antenna for the Gripen Demo program, to be mated with the signal processor from the JAS 39C's Saab PS-05 MSA radar. The Thales AESA replaced the passive-scan antenna of Rafale's RBE2.

But three things happened: Thales and Dassault were given the go-ahead to develop and produce the AESA for Rafale; Dassault has taken a large shareholding in Thales; and the Gripen NG has emerged—in India and Brazil—as a competitor to Rafale. Thales will honor the Gripen Demo contract but its AESA will not be available for a production NG.



Wickberg wrote:Yes, Elta was one of the options for the Gripen NG to India, if India would have preferred that option.


I have zero indication it was ever offered to India.

Wickberg wrote:What advantages it would have for India? Are you kidding me? What radar is the LCA suppose to have?


Back when this discussion was taking place? There wasn't one selected.

Wickberg wrote:Which country have India in recent time have several armsdeals with?


Russia

However, if it did indeed have so many advantages for India, why wasn't it ever offered to India?

Wickberg wrote:For any other country the Gripen NG have been pitched the Selex/SAAB radar have been the obvious choice.


For ALL countries Selex has been the obvious choice because it is the ONLY choice offered with the NG

Because Saab evaluated several units (except strangely the one unit actually flying on the plane) and determined Selex to be the best choice.

I have an article saying that Thales REFUSED to offer their radar for NG production and I have a quote from Saab saying they evaluated several radars (in other words Raven was NOT the pre-ordained winner).

You have nothing that can overcome those plain statements.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby shiv » 13 Jan 2011 07:49

johnny_m wrote: With the J 20 coming into Chicom service none of them are going to be good enough for the Chinese front and all of them are more than enough for the Paki front.



Sir please pardon me for saying that this is dhoti-shivering at its finest and purest.

Would you be able to provide a rational explanation as to why you have said this? What has changed? Were things so rosy 72 hours ago before the J-20 flew that they should have descended to such depths today?

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Singha » 13 Jan 2011 08:18

at this rate Shiv can make a small fortune opening a dhoti making textile unit in Peenya and selling it online here. innovations like the "khaki colour dhoti" , "easy-wash dhoti" can be tried out.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36415
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 13 Jan 2011 08:35

:rotfl: don't forget the stealth dhotis.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Singha » 13 Jan 2011 09:06

and even then people will crib the dhoti making machine is only 70% pindigenous and some of the dyes are made in kenya ...i.e. it will be called a langoti++ or a undie+++ only :rotfl:


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests