MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

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Lalmohan
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Lalmohan » 23 Feb 2011 02:41

Mahendraji, you'd be surprised at what hardware I have operated!
perhaps over zam zam cola one day...

ramana
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby ramana » 23 Feb 2011 02:50

Malli, Stop trolling. I don't see any value in your questions. And folks learn to ignore.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 23 Feb 2011 04:27

Rs 46,000-crore for 126 MMRCA


ddm is really narrowing down on the price.. coming down from $10.4 earlier quoted to $10.2b now.

it is jittery to even think of the losers, how various agents might be changing their careers now.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Indaruta » 23 Feb 2011 06:11

Interesting video on the F35 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiNMio9zN2Q ,Wonder which one of the MMRCA competitors comes close to this,

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby nashCS » 23 Feb 2011 07:54

Was flying out of Ahmedabad yesterday and saw three gripens and a C 130 land. They were followed by three mirages. This happened at 4.30 PM. Are there any evaluations happening with the Mirages?

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Singha » 23 Feb 2011 07:59

not that we know of. were these IAF mirages or someone else?

the gripens could be enroute to thailand or such - thais first ordered 6 and then 4 more.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby nashCS » 23 Feb 2011 08:16

They had Swedish markings on them and they got parked with the Mirages. All of them were carrying a different loadout though.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby nashCS » 23 Feb 2011 08:17

The mirages were of the IAF.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby koti » 23 Feb 2011 12:31

It is funny when somebody says induct more M2ks/Mig-29 in the year 2014, without visualizing how irrelevant they will be by 2030s.. forget 2040-50!



:)
PLAAF is inducting more 4th gen Ac into its AF then anyother in the world.

It is going to be our major adversary. So, I strongly agree that 4th and 4.5gen Ac still have a formidable future till 2030(not only for IAF but in general).
With necessary upgrades, they can very well go beyond that point.
Last edited by koti on 23 Feb 2011 12:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby koti » 23 Feb 2011 12:36

nashCS wrote:They had Swedish markings on them and they got parked with the Mirages. All of them were carrying a different loadout though.


Wait.... Loadout?? And youv'e seen them being followed by mirages.
You were able to see the markings on the planes. And you also see them parked?

Were u in the airport or on the plane to see all this. :shock:

Kindly explain?

If true.. I see something cooking.. :)

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Christopher Sidor » 23 Feb 2011 12:43

Malli F-16IN is inferior to Grippen if there are restrictions and monitoring activities which come with F-16IN are absent with Grippen. F-16IN is inferior if the source code of its AESA radar is not available, unlike in the case of Grippen, where it will be available.

And your point regarding the thrust is meaningless. A TATA truck has more horsepower than a humble Alto, does that mean it is superior. Or to put it in reverse, A Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren has more horsepower than a humble Tata Truck, does that make the Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren more useful or does it make it useless.

F-16IN may be the best aircraft on offer, but the associated baggage with it is not worth it. And will America promise us that it will never ever upgrade Pakistan F-16 to the same level as F-16IN. Or will not provide Pakistan F-16 with the means to overcome F-16IN. Our enemies, Pakistan and China, already have access to this fighter. They are at ease with its capabilities and its performance. India buying the same aircraft will not give it an edge. Rather we will be sending out a very loud signal. A signal which says to American and to the world, boss you can sell Pakistan all the weapons you want, and then in turn come back and arm us with the same weapon.

And like Lalmohan said, please state your reason clearly for asking the question. I hope that you are asking a question not for rhetorical reasons.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby nashCS » 23 Feb 2011 13:52

They had the roundel with three crowns. They had a grey flag with a yellow cross in it. the c130 also had the same flag on its tail. The first one looked like it was carrying air to air and the second looked like it had a heavier payload and the third had a centerline pod. My flight was delayed and i could watch from the departure window.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby koti » 23 Feb 2011 14:12

^Where is Mr. Henrik?

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby kmkraoind » 23 Feb 2011 14:28

nashCS wrote:They had the roundel with three crowns. They had a grey flag with a yellow cross in it. the c130 also had the same flag on its tail. The first one looked like it was carrying air to air and the second looked like it had a heavier payload and the third had a centerline pod. My flight was delayed and i could watch from the departure window.


Some related information on that regard.

Swedish fighter jets make a halt at Chennai airport

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby krishnan » 23 Feb 2011 14:32

^^
"The planes came from Ahmedabad and has left for Andaman and Nicobar Islands," said a senior Airports Authority of India ( AAI) official. "We learnt that the jets came in a formation and left to either the Andamans or Sri Lanka. The fighter jets were parked on the unused secondary runway that is closed for expansion works."

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Henrik » 23 Feb 2011 14:41

koti wrote:^Where is Mr. Henrik?

I'm here. What's on your mind? :)

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Singha » 23 Feb 2011 14:42

I can understand swedish gripens enroute to some demo or exercise in far east.

but IAF mirages parked in a civilian a/c beats me....unless they had formed up together for some kinda indo-swedish exercise in secret or a photo op.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Henrik » 23 Feb 2011 14:48

Image
Image

Gripens on route to Thailand lands for a fuel-stop on Crete, setting of car alarms.
[youtube]1du3zlKfDyg&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Pilots itching to fly latest Gripens, seen as a new force in the region
By The Nation
Published on February 23, 2011

After a long wait for the much-heralded Swedish-made Gripen jet fighters to be commissioned, Royal Thai Air Force pilots are now itching to fly the new aircraft that will replace vintage F-5 fighters.
The Gripen, with the designated code of JAS-39 C/D, has technological advantages 30 years ahead of even the US-made F-16 fighters, the newest aircraft in the RTAF, according to Wing Cmdr Natthawut Duangsoongnern.

One of six pilots who underwent the basic flight course on the Gripen, Natthawut said: "The RTAF's addition of Gripen is a significant addition to air power in the region."

With full use of its support systems, including weaponry and air defence, Gripen is regarded as a fighter of the future, said Natthawut, who with five other pilots was selected from more than 20 with F-5 and F-16 flying experience.

Wing Cmdr Jakkrit Thammawichai is commander of Wing 701 in Surat Thani where the first six Gripen will be stationed. He said another six Gripen jets and their support systems would be handed to Thailand later.

Four of the fighters are two-seaters for training, while the other eight, the C model, are one-seaters.The RTAF purchase of Gripens provides not only the fighter jets, but also an entire support system that includes technology transfer and scholarship and supplementary training in advanced technology.

With real-time data links through encryption among all jets, the Gripen is superior to other fighters that have equivalent technology, meaning that the Gripen can fight or defeat enemy fighters at a ratio of one to four, or even one to eight.

"This well explains why we don't need to employ them in large numbers," he said.

Unlike deployment of mainly US-made fighters, in which technology regarding electronics warfare has been classified, Gripen offers open training including electronic countermeasures.

"This means we can stand on our own in terms of mastering difficult and advanced technologies. This is a great leap forward for the RTAF," he said.

The six pilots will train another four after they fully complete entire courses.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/02/23/national/Pilots-itching-to-fly-latest-Gripens-seen-as-a-new-30149300.html
6 Gripen jets land, await official handover
Six Gripen jet fighters have landed in Surat Thani where they will wait to be officially handed over by the Swedish manufacturer.

The fighters, flown by Swedish pilots, made a smooth touchdown on the runway of the Wing 7 air force base about 7.30pm yesterday after leaving Sweden on Feb 18 and stopping over in Hungary, Greece, Egypt and India en route to Thailand.

They are the first batch of 12 Gripen 39 C/D jet fighters that will replace the ageing F-5A/B jets. They will become the pride of the air force which was allocated almost 40 billion baht to acquire the state-of-the-art planes.

Air force commander Itthaporn Subhawong, who earlier said he wanted to conduct test flights of the planes, led executives of Gripen manufacturer, Saab, to welcome the six jets in Surat Thani yesterday.

Two air force pilots who have undergone training on the Gripens in Sweden flew with the six jets. However, they took the back seat in the planes commanded by Swedish pilots because the jets technically still belong to Sweden.

The jets will be inspected and officially handed over to the air force next month.

Thailand is the first country in Asean to own Gripen jets, said Gp Capt Putthipong Phonchiwin, who completed Gripen training and returned home earlier.

He said his experience with the fighter was unforgettable.

"The Gripen is very cool indeed. For me, it's the number one fighter," he said.

"It's different from the F5 jet I've flown before. It's like a sedan and a sports car. Thailand is the only country in Asean to operate the Gripen."

The jet can also be fitted with weapons which are now used on the US-made F16 jets, Gp Capt Putthipong said.

The air force is sending 10 more pilots to train on the aircraft as the other six jets are due to arrive in Thailand next year. Gp Capt Putthipong said F5 and F16 pilots were extremely keen to become Gripen pilots.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/2 ... l-handover

As for the markings on the planes, they have both Thai AF and Sw AF markings on them because on route to Thailand they're still "Swedish" for political reasons. But the Swedish markings are just stickers and once they arrived and all the final paperwork is done they're pulled of and underneath are Thai markings.
Last edited by Henrik on 23 Feb 2011 15:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby kmkraoind » 23 Feb 2011 14:54

Henrik wrote:As for the markings on the planes, they have both Thai AF and Sw AF markings on them because on route to Thailand they're still "Swedish" for political reasons. But the Swedish markings are just stickers and once they arrived and all the final paperwork is done they're pulled of and underneath are Thai markings.


Probably, IAF sent three Mirages who might have played cat and mouse games en route to get more familiarization and to gain more know how about latest avionics vis a vis IAF Mirages. JMT.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Drishyaman » 23 Feb 2011 15:00

Viv S wrote:
malli wrote:lalmohan...
surprisingly i am someone who's used the socialist hardware. I am also pretty close to the field. stop ****** romantising useless hardware. you will have the blood of young pilots on your hands.
have you ever operated US and Russian/ European hardware??? you will understand what i am talking about.
you can all be influenced but i have generational memory.
love you.
no malice to you at all.


So god forbid, if a young pilot does lose his life, I guess we need collar Lalmohan and hold him accountable for his actions.

Having spent so much time discussing the MRCA, I think we've deluded ourselves into believing that BRF decides which aircraft will finally fly in IAF colours. :roll:

Malli ji, The hidden truth is, we the BRFites are going to decide the MMRCA ;)
Govt. is dependent on us.
So, we are having a mad rush, so that we can make our favourite win.
So, you should be bringing up strong points in support of the 16.
May be you and your 16 will win the deal ultimately :rotfl:

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby shiv » 23 Feb 2011 15:01

malli wrote:the original question...
are you guys all sure that the f-16in is inferior to the gripen??


Warning. Don't listen to anyone else. They are all dumb. I can answer for everyone.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Henrik » 23 Feb 2011 15:06

kmkraoind wrote:
Henrik wrote:As for the markings on the planes, they have both Thai AF and Sw AF markings on them because on route to Thailand they're still "Swedish" for political reasons. But the Swedish markings are just stickers and once they arrived and all the final paperwork is done they're pulled of and underneath are Thai markings.


Probably, IAF sent three Mirages who might have played cat and mouse games en route to get more familiarization and to gain more know how about latest avionics vis a vis IAF Mirages. JMT.

I could be, but it could also just be a formal procedure when you have foreign military aircrafts using your territory?

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Rahul M » 23 Feb 2011 15:13

I think it's just a coincidence. there have been other foreign fighters in transit that haven't been escorted.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby nashCS » 23 Feb 2011 17:31

They were parked in a bay away from the civilian aircraft. the c130 was parked near the civilian tarmac.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 23 Feb 2011 19:55

Gripen lands in chennai.. and now we have the winner for "mother"land!

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Lalmohan » 23 Feb 2011 20:06

yes yes but are you sure that white ghagra chix are inferior to the lalchix?

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby kit » 23 Feb 2011 20:42

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... -asia.html

Thailand joins the Czech Republic, Hungary, South Africa and Sweden in operating the Gripen. The type is also used by the UK Empire Test Pilots' School.

A new generation version dubbed the Gripen NG is also involved in fighter competitions in nations including Brazil, India and Switzerland.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby kit » 23 Feb 2011 20:54

Indaruta wrote:Interesting video on the F35 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiNMio9zN2Q ,Wonder which one of the MMRCA competitors comes close to this,



Why compare a 4th Gen fighter (4+ or 4++ or whatever) with the 5th ? Apples and oranges. MRCA deal is about numbers and preferably a plane that would be viable for the next decade.If IAF is not able to induct them in numbers in the next 5 years, this whole 'deal' would not be a deal at all ! If such a situation comes , ideally it would make sense to go for the next generation.But India's volatile neighbourhood will not give it that kind of luxury.So devil and the deep sea, whichever way you turn, it would cost billions and lets hope some sense and sensibility prevail in the 'strategic' sense :P

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 23 Feb 2011 23:45

We should be aware that with the current globalization and economic situation, the money can't be for ever available.. hence it is extremely important to give into home grown technologies whichever generation it may kick/jump start to. Now, we can always do a ++.

MRCA's major objective from MoD perspective is which line of production transfers or allow us to gain more that satisfies our self reliance and no-choke at all level strategy., and this is truth unless there is a hijack by shenanigans at top level and at the core level.

Rafale, EF2K and Gripen are all promising on the DDM world, and what remains to be seen is how MoD reacts to all those promises, and which it considers realistic to our needs. We all sincerely hope, there is no corruption at all here.

God bless the strategists.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby shukla » 24 Feb 2011 02:33

Modern combat jets by 2020: Antony

http://www.sify.com/mobile/finance/mode ... ffbda.html

New Delhi, Feb 23 (IANS) Modern combat jets, six of which are in contention for an Indian Air Force order for 126 planes, will be inducted by 2020, even as the Soviet-era MiG-21 fleet which is the mainstay of the force will be phased out by 2017, parliament was informed Wednesday.

'Among the proposals (for the modernisation of the IAF, 126 MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) will be inducted by 2020,' Defence Minister A. K. Antony said while answering a supplementary in the Rajya Sabha.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Cain Marko » 24 Feb 2011 04:48

Boreas wrote:The strength of MKI's alone is not enough. We need more.
Why? Because you say so? Can you back that up with some decent data (or atleast reasonable logic based on some facts)? And if we do need more a few more MKIs won't do any harm? Also, if we do need more, why won't upgraded Mirages/Mig-29s or LCAs not suffice?

If we buy a EF/Rafale it will be operational and relevant till 2050. Both France and EADS don't have any other fighter development program and hence will continue supporting them.Mig29/Mirage are more then 2 decade old designs, to maintain numbers we may upgrade what we already have. BUT buying more of them will be stupidity. If IAF will induct a plane in 2014-15 it will need supplies atleast for coming 3 decades.

Patent bakwas - the IAF is committed to supporting these a/cs till around 2030 anyways, adding a few more to the existing inventory will be a LOT easier than setting up entirely new infrastructure to support the MRCA. Also, if buying such a/c was stupidity, the IAF would not have shown so much interest in the Qatari M2ks.

Dassault no longer manufactures Mirage and Mikoyan is moving on to Mig-35. Have you thought of who will support these planes for 3-4 more decades? Where from IAF will be getting spares in 2030-40? U must be kidding if you think Dassault will provide M2k spares in 2035!

More bakwas - the above should answer your questions one hopes.


What exactly do you mean by "will challange future versions" - run for shelter?

Err should've been obvious but let me spell it out - by the time the upgraded Mig 29s and M2ks become seriously outdated 2nd tier a/c, the Pakfa will be well on its way to become the spearhead, the MKI too will provide enough superiority vs. "future versions". IOWs, the IAF even now has a second tier fleet of assorted MiG-21s, which can effectively challenge more modern versions deployed by the PLAAF/PAF. I am sure that you are aware of the accomplishments of the poor, much scorned MiG-21? Wonlee upgraded Gen 3 a/c no? But lo and behold, it challenges a Gen 4.25 F-16 blk52. Shouldn't be hard to imagine why a suitably upgraded Gen 4 a/c (Mirage/fulcrum) can't challenge future versions of Chini 4 gen a/c.

And then don't you think that in a networked environment EF/Rafale/SH will be able to a$$kick panda's upgraded flankers/J10s?

Sure, but the Pakfa will do better, and so will the MKI II. Possibly even the Tejas 2. Again, no need for super expensive MRCA.

If you would had a habit of reading newspaper you must have known there are 'already' 7 divisions of J11 in PLAAF.

Considering the amount of tripe you put forth, I am glad I don't read your newspapers/sources. Personally, BR is enough for me. Btw, how many J11/J10Bs (I did mention these versions y'know) do the PLAAF have in service? OMG - none!

-> Point is your upg M2k/M29 wont be able to cross border and return home.

Are you serious? And what exactly is the MRCA supposed to do? Fly to Chengdu and back? First, Range/Endurance/Payload differences between upgraded M2ks and Mig-29s vs. the MRCA candidates is nothing earthshattering - do compare and present data if you want. Second, the upgraded versions are more than enough to handle deep strike in Pak, and not even the MKIs are sufficient for truly deep strikes in China. Again, MRCA provides very little here.

MKI's can do that. but we don't have enough of them.
Really? Please enlighten us all - what exactly can the MKI do? What exactly can the upgraded 29s/M2ks NOT do? What exactly can the MRCA candidates do in comparison?

Hence we are inducting "Medium" "Multirole" Fighters, Which will get the job done, Which will bring "new class of technology" (ie western) and Which will enhance our numbers.

Of course since it is western technology, it must by default be a "new class", wot? Btw, none of the MRCA fighters can do what the MKI can in terms of endurance, which is why they are simply not in the same league. Further, the Medium part was shed a long time ago.

But MRCA will A$$ kick all other fighters in PLAAF while upg Mig/Mirage can't.

Boss, the difference between the two is not zameen-asman - wonlee .25 gen. Plus, IF MRCA can kick ass as you say, so can MKI no?

b) It can't, otherwise French won't be flying Rafale and British won't be flying EF.. they would have upgraded.
Wah bhai wah! French have not done it, nor have British - so then IAF also should not. AFterall, french and British are always right. How relevant. Btw, them two AFs surely have upgraded M2ks and Tornados.

c) If that is the case then I think everybody who is crying that unkil wont do much technology transfer is FOOL, coz as per you we are not going to get any significant technology from MRCA anyways. I wonder why people at MoD failed to realize it!
Yes, the MRCA will provide some tech infusion - but not increase knowhow as only a purely indigenous program will, not even to the extent that a JV will. Or do we need to go into details into this as well - if we do, please do so yourself - EHOG?

Yes you can say that, any fighter which is planned to be inducted in high volume will provide number advantage, but MMRCA will ALSO bring much superior quality. If you try to perform a same mission with M2K/Mig29/LCA the attrition will be manifolds.
But why would you? When you have MKI, and Pakfa and Tejas 2 coming in roughly the same time?

I was looking forward for a fruitful discussion, but now i realize your inclination is more towards making random comments.

Arrey wah - more chutzpah! There is an old saying - chorachya ultya bomba - some of you might understand. First, you don't provide any real figures, but make wonderphul statements about how MRCA will kick this and that, and how IAF NEEDS 150 more MKI etc, and then you accuse moi of indulging in fruitless discussion ! Stunning. But then again, this is the MRCA dhaga - lot of fruitless stuff herein.

It is funny when somebody says induct more M2ks/Mig-29 in the year 2014, without visualizing how irrelevant they will be by 2030s.. forget 2040-50!
Yes saar, you have great vision wonlee - what visionaries we have on BR today - every day they get more with 20/20 - doordrushti indeed. Poor IAF stuck with such irrelevant fighters like the Mirage 2000-5, MiG-29SMT etc till 2030 - buggers have no vision wonlee.

Even there manufacturers have not pitched them in the competition, because they knew these planes cant fulfill the requirements IAF have. Your proposition lacks merit right there

Of course, manufacturers decided to pull out their contenders because how utterly useless they were - couldn't have been that it might have been too costly to maintain lines for a/c that had no orders (M2k). Btw, I am surprised that with your great vision you have not noticed how most of the birds in contention are uber variants of legacy frames with v.strong lineages that date back to the 70s.

CM

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby nachiket » 24 Feb 2011 05:56

Cain Marko wrote:Arrey wah - more chutzpah! There is an old saying - chorachya ultya bomba - some of you might understand.


:rotfl: CM, didn't know you too were a Marathi manoos onlee.

That aside, what you are saying about upgraded M2ks etc. being sufficient was definitely true 10 years ago when the IAF was looking to acquire them. However the M2k lines are closed and there's no point in crying over spilt milk. As for upgraded Mig-29s, the Mig-35 is little more than an upgraded Mig-29 and it is still in the running :D (if you discount chaiwallah reports about eurocanards being in the lead).

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby andy B » 24 Feb 2011 06:15

nachiket wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Arrey wah - more chutzpah! There is an old saying - chorachya ultya bomba - some of you might understand.


:rotfl: CM, didn't know you too were a Marathi manoos onlee.

That aside, what you are saying about upgraded M2ks etc. being sufficient was definitely true 10 years ago when the IAF was looking to acquire them. However the M2k lines are closed and there's no point in crying over spilt milk. As for upgraded Mig-29s, the Mig-35 is little more than an upgraded Mig-29 and it is still in the running :D (if you discount chaiwallah reports about eurocanards being in the lead).


:eek: My dad still uses that same saying on me and my brother at times :((

On another note anybody comparing the F35 to MRCA should really do a bit more research on the topic some points to remember is please consider the stuff that you see in the videos, we wont be getting anywhere close the gold stuff that khan will have in his puppies.

My two cents....this is gonna be between the Euro Deltas and thats abt it.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Cain Marko » 24 Feb 2011 15:05

nachiket wrote::rotfl: CM, didn't know you too were a Marathi manoos onlee.

Peewer 96 koli wonlee! Andy san, good to know that the Maratha contingent is potent in the BRF brigade - I am betting on Kartik as well, and Shankarosky, who unfortunately has by now been completely assimilated by the borg or its russki equivalent :twisted:

That aside, what you are saying about upgraded M2ks etc. being sufficient was definitely true 10 years ago when the IAF was looking to acquire them. However the M2k lines are closed and there's no point in crying over spilt milk. As for upgraded Mig-29s, the Mig-35 is little more than an upgraded Mig-29 and it is still in the running :D (if you discount chaiwallah reports about eurocanards being in the lead).


Not advocating the reopening of M2k lines Natchiket, but looking at avenues to buffer IAF numbers - the IAF was interested in Qatari M2ks just about 4 years ago, and the reason the M2k lost favor was not because the IAF didn't want it but simply because the MRCA deal got out of hand big after the NDA lost.

My whole point though was that the MRCA deal is by no means a primary form of getting advanced tech, not in light of the Pakfa JV or AMCA prospects or even the Tejas Mk2 and MKI upgrades. What more tech can the MRCA bring in?

NOr is it the best means to broaden indigenous capability - nothing like bread and butter local programs for this ala LCA/AMCA. Even solid JVs and partnerships like the Pakfa/Kaveri-Snecma will allow for more knowledge gained.

Under the circumstances, it is primarily an interim solution to address falling numbers, but this imho can be achieved via other ways - faster, more economical, and equally potent. At best the MRCA has now become an out of control carrot being used for rather fuzzy strategic/geopolitical ambitions as can be seen from the speculation of increased (insane - $ 25bill) numbers, splitting orders, and the meddling by strategy pundits like Tellis. I daresay, all this has happened at the cost of its primary purpose - get strength up quickly!

CM.

koti
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby koti » 24 Feb 2011 15:55

I am betting on Kartik as well, and Shankarosky, who unfortunately has by now been completely assimilated by the borg or its russki equivalent

Roos is too big an entity in our context ever to consider assimilating its options.
And Russiki equipment can withstand a lot more borg too... They r made well :mrgreen: ...

My whole point though was that the MRCA deal is by no means a primary form of getting advanced tech, not in light of the Pakfa JV or AMCA prospects or even the Tejas Mk2 and MKI upgrades. What more tech can the MRCA bring in?

+1
And we should all remember this and stop salivating for firangi maal....

Mig my friends will fill in this very well.(firangi too but we already have it in good numbers)
I am however unsure as to what additional delay the Mig35 will need to face due to its current state(like NG, EF) of development. Does anyone have time estimates on this?

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby kmc_chacko » 24 Feb 2011 21:47

I have a feeling that we will not induct MRCAs :) , since as our babus take decision of selecting either one of EF/Rafael/F-18s (since these three are the top contenders) the drop outs will cry foul of corruption and malpractice and automatically project will be hold back for inquiry 8) .

Since we have seen these type of activity in other projects like procurement of SAMs and howitzer :cry: . It is expected that the deal will get delayed for another 4-5 years, by that time we can assume that Tejas Mk2 & PAKFA will be flying :D . During that time we will usually feel "why we should by MRCA" and we will stick with our indigenous projects.

:twisted:

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby malli » 24 Feb 2011 22:47

Christopher Sidor wrote:Malli F-16IN is inferior to Grippen if there are restrictions and monitoring activities which come with F-16IN are absent with Grippen. F-16IN is inferior if the source code of its AESA radar is not available, unlike in the case of Grippen, where it will be available.

And your point regarding the thrust is meaningless. A TATA truck has more horsepower than a humble Alto, does that mean it is superior. Or to put it in reverse, A Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren has more horsepower than a humble Tata Truck, does that make the Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren more useful or does it make it useless.

F-16IN may be the best aircraft on offer, but the associated baggage with it is not worth it. And will America promise us that it will never ever upgrade Pakistan F-16 to the same level as F-16IN. Or will not provide Pakistan F-16 with the means to overcome F-16IN. Our enemies, Pakistan and China, already have access to this fighter. They are at ease with its capabilities and its performance. India buying the same aircraft will not give it an edge. Rather we will be sending out a very loud signal. A signal which says to American and to the world, boss you can sell Pakistan all the weapons you want, and then in turn come back and arm us with the same weapon.

And like Lalmohan said, please state your reason clearly for asking the question. I hope that you are asking a question not for rhetorical reasons.


Amazing how your argument mirrors mine about capabilities. dont compare apples to oranges. just forget that there are restrictions and et all. which is the best aircraft? lets start from there. so we are willing to face su-30s on our northern border in blind faith that russkies have given us a better product? no no the product is better because of israeli avionics or french sighting systems? great. nehruvian self denial. keep it up. you should put a photo of the MIG MFI and the J-20 in the same frame to realise what is happening. forget the nose please. i will take a bet that the Shi Lang will be operational before the Vikramaditya. The europeans are responsible for this.

malli
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby malli » 24 Feb 2011 22:53

jai wrote:
malli wrote:tommorrows question.
are you guys sure that the rafale is superior to the F-16IN?


Yes.... !!

malli wrote:the original question...
are you guys all sure that the f-16in is inferior to the gripen??


Yes...... !!! Yes...... !!! We do not like Khan stuff that comes with conditions .......anything else in the competition without conditions is better.

Original question(s) to you...with due respect to the greys......

a) Is the F 16IN superior to J 20 ??

b) What's your ******* point Ji ??


just plan an air campaign 72 vs 72 with both red and blue . give similar objectives and similar target lists. go by janes if you dont trust the internet.
now come back to me with your question.

Lalmohan
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Lalmohan » 24 Feb 2011 23:17

malli-ji, there you go posing questions again
you'll get more enagement if you pose answers
(we're not that bright here!)

Gaur
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Gaur » 24 Feb 2011 23:22

malli,
Frankly, this is getting a bit tiresome. So, to repeat jai's question, what is your point?


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