MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby karan_mc » 06 Mar 2011 22:55

kmc_chacko wrote:I didn't understand why Brits are more interested in JSF than Naval EFs


Thats the only way they can have a 5th gen fighter aircraft in their fleet , they don't have funds to go alone nor they want to built with other European countries who are already cutting EF orders every year

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Baldev » 06 Mar 2011 22:58

karan_mc wrote:BAE Systems targets £6bn India fighter deal

Few days ago i was wondering when Brits are struggling to train pilots ,how they can afford JSF

The irony is that Britain no longer has aircraft carriers. It will be at least ten years before new British carriers are built, which will carry US-made Joint Strike Fighters (JSF). The cost of each JSF is expected to rise to more than £100 million, much higher than the £60 million Typhoon.

The advantage of the deal with New Delhi would be that the detailed design work needed to convert the Typhoon for carriers would be borne by the Indians.


Come lets milk India :rotfl:
nobody can milk our country unless our govt want to do this and in fact its our govt who is milking our country in all sectors as you know so many ghotalas.

there have been delays in all area of procurement and things have become obsolete.

armed forces give thanks whenever their is something available and try to grab that opportunity as soon as possible because politicians don't care.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby karan_mc » 06 Mar 2011 22:59

I cannot under stand why Navy wants a new fighter , why cannot they stick with Mig-29k or work with Russians to develop Block 2 version of it, sure will be cheap and easy to operate and maintain ,unless IAF and MOD have already decided to go for F-18 or Rafale and Navy is just there with "Me Too"

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby karan_mc » 06 Mar 2011 23:04

@ Baldev , suppose MOD and IAF decide to go for EF and Navy also wants the same platform then why should India bear the development cost ?

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Baldev » 06 Mar 2011 23:06

karan_mc wrote:I cannot under stand why Navy wants a new fighter , why cannot they stick with Mig-29k or work with Russians to develop Block 2 version of it, sure will be cheap and easy to operate and maintain ,unless IAF and MOD have already decided to go for F-18 or Rafale and Navy is just there with "Me Too"


karan_mc wrote:@ Baldev , suppose MOD and IAF decide to go for EF and Navy also wants the same platform then why should India bear the development cost ?


well there will be 16 migs on vik and 29 more coming for carrier being built and also possibility of getting LCA from 30-60 for the second carrier to be built
so the change of getting third fighter seems very diminish.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 06 Mar 2011 23:07

SH if it is, then Boeing also promises just like others giving more from design stage for AMCA. Sounds like a nice move by Boeing. It remains to be seen about the various agreements we are made to sign, and where they stand.

Chewing and milking happens from every corner. Before they chew, let us chew them with the very similar agreements right on the paper.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby karan_mc » 06 Mar 2011 23:18

IAC-2 will not be in service till 2022 if i am not wrong so they can wait for N-FGFA or N-AMCA ,why induct another 4.5 gen fighter when they can wait for few more years and get a 5th gen fighter if they are any delays in this projects Navy can always order some extra Mig-29k since Production line will be open till 2020 since Russian Navy is also buying them

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Doddel » 07 Mar 2011 02:21

arthuro wrote:Bottom line is when the gripen C/D visited Reims AFB (close to st dizier, the nest of the rafales) in 2007 and were pitched against the rafale they were dominated in almost every aspects.

report made about this swedish detachment in 2007 (from Air fan magazine)

In an article of Air Fan of May 2007, Gripen came to France in exchange with F1CR Reims. Beyond reconnaissance missions, the Gripen have mock dogfights and BVR with the Mirages F1. I did not specify the outcome, nobody doubts ... [28]

however, the Gripen has been against the Rafale, and here it seems that our Swedish friends had nice cold sweat ...

Thus combined raids were conducted according to Air Fan (two or four in F1CR reco Gripen escorted by two plus two Rafales sweep in with the AWACS, with four in 2000-5 CAP) and interceptions Gripen / Rafale in altitude. Swedish aviators knew little french new jet they fear above all the ability to shoot long distance with the Mica IR. Swedish aviators "who have participated with Rafale in combat have also discovered huge reserves of power available to that aircraft, even heavily loaded"


Also, according to a pilot, 1 / 33, connoisseur of the Rafale, which flew aboard Rafale and Gripen.
"Gripen is about the capacity of 2000-5 Mk2, a little smaller. But in terms of fusion of information, payload capacity, and technology of the weapon system, there 'is a gap between the Rafale and JAS39 "

Other comments: "Visiting the EC 1 / 7, the Swedish pilots were obviously surprised by the capabilities of carrying the Rafale and the fusion of diffferent sensors "

... against F1CR , I do prefer not to comment ... we will simply say that for dogfightieng, they are dropped completely, and BVR


This article is describing the Gripen C/D. NG will be much more capable.

Can you provide a link of the article? We don't have enough info to draw many conclusions (score? ROE?). It looks like its written by someone that have selected the parts thats looks good from Rafale's point of view.

Of course Rafale will have a higher payload because its a heavier class. I haven't said anything else. Yes gripen C/D is close to Mirage in many aspects. You draw a lot of conclusions of how superior Rafale is with little info/facts...

But this doesn't change anything of what we were discussing (First EF vs Rafale, then Gripen vs Rafale). All you Rafale fans is trying to do is to explain that:
- IR signature is not important,
- Higher Altitude is not important,
- Max speed is not important.
- Increase range of missiles is not important
- BVR is not important!!!

None of it has changed:

Gripen vs Rafale (A2A):
- Gripen has a much better Datalink (no one here has been able to show anything else). I think this is the greatest and most important advantage for gripen. This advantage will be even greater when AWACS support is limited. Rafale is much more dependent on AWACS.

- The IR (and visual) signature of gripen signature is smaller.

- Rafale will be equipped with a less capable version of METEOR, because Rafale lacks a 2-way missile guidance link. This will not change... (Prove me wrong!)

- Gripen will have a number advantage because of (cheap a/c, easy and low cost of support, short turn around time, short repair times... etc.). Gripen is much cheaper. The importance of a numbers should not be forgotten! This gives a lot of tactical advantages (divided payload, more radars, more lives...).

I think that these factors will give gripen the edge in most A2A situations.

I am not saying that Rafale is a bad a/c. One obvious difference is that it has a higher thrust and payload compared to gripen. About the spectra that every rafale fan is talking about... Don't know too much about it maybe someone can explain more (waiting for you guys to explain how wrong I am and how much of a game changer it is... hehe). But what I have heard (and with some common sense) it is mostly a defensive system to detect radar, lasers and incoming missiles and to be used in A2G and shorter ranges up to bit longer than WVR vs a/c.
Last edited by Doddel on 07 Mar 2011 02:28, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 07 Mar 2011 02:24

There is always this medium solution or a technology gap filler solution like Mirage 4000 we could always use. Convert LCA to an interim quick turn around medium class twin engined MCA fighter as a staged product to AMCA. It just have to the increase MTOW, more stores, similar LCA specs but extended range. La Tank-EX project. Should not take more than 2-3 years to deliver for IOC from LCA Mk-2 FoC date.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby NRao » 07 Mar 2011 07:43

I am getting the feeling that WRT US, the political establishment cannot be trusted, but the vendor can. WRT Russia is it somewhat the other way around, the political be trusted (to some extent), but not the vendor?

It is sickening to learn the Sukhoi would do this. It was their (drunken) government that requested a bailout of Sukhoi, resulting in the MKI.

I feel that GoI should go ahead with the FGFA plan and decide how much to invest when the final design is completed. My feel is that the FGFA would bail out the PAK-FA. I think the FGFA should be curtailed. ???????????

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby NRao » 07 Mar 2011 07:47

Or could this drama be related to the MMRCA deal? Is the 35 really out?

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Kartik » 07 Mar 2011 09:50

As per Neelam Matthews (take it FWIW) MMRCA shortlist by April. Only 2-3 vendors will be asked to submit their offset proposals after the shortlisting.

AW link


The shortlist for the six contenders for India’s Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program is to be announced in the first week of April.

Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik had declared at Aero India on Feb. 10 that he was optimistic that price negotiations would start within a few weeks and a deal could be signed by September, “provided dissatisfied vendors do not put a spoke in the wheel and delay proceedings.”

Aviation Week has learned that two or three vendors will be asked to submit their offset proposals within six months. The defense ministry will negotiate offsets with the down-selected companies only. Recently, the ministry asked all MMRCA vendors to hold back on presenting their offset proposals.

According to India’s Defense Procurement Procedures, the offset proposals are not a primary criterion for the source selection, as they are compliant.

Some observers here have been speculating that the Typhoon and Rafale are the leading contenders. It is not clear if a decision has been made on a third down-select vendor; sources in the defense ministry have indicated it could be Boeing.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SidGupta » 07 Mar 2011 09:55

Lewis Page is one of the worst critics of the Eurofighter (and any and all high profile RAF purchases) and constant campaigner against cuts to the RN (not that one can blame him for that seeing as he's a former Royal Navy officer).


And that is why India should go out and buy an overpriced A2A fighter for its 126+ Multirole requirement?

Skin it as you like, EFT is not happening. The F16, EFT and MiG35 are for all practical purposes out of contention - but thats just my opinion.

The IAF, MoD and GOI will afterall go on and do what they do best - 'Serve the nation's best interests, right'?

*snicker*

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby vcsekhar » 07 Mar 2011 10:22

Viv S wrote:Not at all. The EF doesn't have to make 'compromises' in a strike role anymore than the Rafale requires a compromise in air superiority/interceptor role. Yes its range and and payload are somewhat lower than the Rafale's but hardly low enough to be a disability. And the specific type of mission that the Rafale outperforms the EF at (long range strike), is the one that the MKI excels at.


Viv S wrote:I said that the EF is NOT compromised at A2G in the same manner that the Rafale isn't compromised at A2A roles. That's hardly a criticism of the Rafale.


If you read your original quote once again, you are comparing the EF strike role performance to the Rafale in A2A role and saying that both are compromised in these roles.
However, I don't think that the Rafale is in any way compromised in the A2A role, in fact it is very good in the A2A role as has been shown in many exercises till now, however, the EF is compromised in the A2G role.
Not surprising as the EF was designed as a air superiority fighter. That is not to say that it could be excellent in the A2G role in the future is the money is spent in developing that capability. This could be the same as a pure air to air fighter F15C getting converted to the excellent F15E bomb truck. This is not true at this time and it looks doubtful in the future as the F35 is supposed to take the role of the bomber for the UK and other EU nations.

cheers..

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby nachiket » 07 Mar 2011 10:49

Kartik wrote:As per Neelam Matthews (take it FWIW) MMRCA shortlist by April. Only 2-3 vendors will be asked to submit their offset proposals after the shortlisting.

It is not clear if a decision has been made on a third down-select vendor; sources in the defense ministry have indicated it could be Boeing.

Well lets hope not. It'll probably be Saab I think.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 07 Mar 2011 12:29

substantiate your thoughts further nachiket.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby pragnya » 07 Mar 2011 13:20

@Doddel

Gripen vs Rafale (A2A):

- Gripen has a much better Datalink (no one here has been able to show anything else). I think this is the greatest and most important advantage for gripen.

This advantage will be even greater when AWACS support is limited. Rafale is much more dependent on AWACS.


imo datalinks are pretty similar in capabilities. link 16/22 or Gripen TIDLS or the Thales TDL would are no different. it would be wrong to say Rafale will be dependant on the AWACS any more than Gripen. the only advantage for Gripen would be it can guide a Meteor. even here if any other country other than european opt for the Meteor, when will they get them??

- The IR (and visual) signature of gripen signature is smaller.


the comparison of a single engined to a double engined aircraft is moot. so is the case with per flight hour cost. LCA 1/2 will have less or similar parameters wrt Gripen C/NG. a comparison of LCA 1/2 to Gripen C/NG in terms of T/W here -

viewtopic.php?p=1038346#p1038346

a choice of a single engined or double engined also needs to take into account the survivability of the aircraft if one engine is hit or does not work for whatever reasons at any point. besides the range/ew/payload/rcs/radar etc..IOW every aircraft is a compromise and bring in their own strengths.

however when compared to similar aircrfats Rafale is supposed to give out less IR signature. there is a video of that but take it fwiw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlWQsW4ZZfQ

- Rafale will be equipped with a less capable version of METEOR, because Rafale lacks a 2-way missile guidance link. This will not change... (Prove me wrong!)


less capable METEOR?? IIRC there is only one version as of now which too is being planned for 2012. possible it will be delayed too what with defence budgets being cut across Europe.

Gripen being a test platform for Meteor will definitely be the first to get it operational but it is only a matter of time Rafale and EF will get them because Meteor programme was a joint programme for all these 3 aircrafts -

http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/r ... age_id=105

besides from the above link -

Gripen and Rafale integration contracts placed.


so this will happen. but my earlier point still remains. is the METEOR such a game changer?? will the cost forbid many being sold?? when will it be truly operational?? will the rest of the missile makers not improve on theirs?? these needs to be examined too.

- Gripen will have a number advantage because of (cheap a/c, easy and low cost of support, short turn around time, short repair times... etc.). Gripen is much cheaper. The importance of a numbers should not be forgotten! This gives a lot of tactical advantages (divided payload, more radars, more lives...).

I think that these factors will give gripen the edge in most A2A situations.


no doubt number is imporatnt. as for the IAF LCA 1/2 should take care of it. Gripen NG is still a demo programme at this stage and even if it wins the MMRCA contest, they will be coming around the same time LCA mark 2 will be be coming online. as for the rest same holds true for the LCA.

Rafale brings in many capabilities a 2 engined aircraft can bring which Gripen NG will not be able to.

I am not saying that Rafale is a bad a/c. One obvious difference is that it has a higher thrust and payload compared to gripen. About the spectra that every rafale fan is talking about... Don't know too much about it maybe someone can explain more (waiting for you guys to explain how wrong I am and how much of a game changer it is... hehe). But what I have heard (and with some common sense) it is mostly a defensive system to detect radar, lasers and incoming missiles and to be used in A2G and shorter ranges up to bit longer than WVR vs a/c.


SPECTRA is one of Rafale's usp. it is not just defensive suit but much more. here is the thales description of the same -

Thales and Electronic Warfare

Spectra

The Rafale is equipped with the Spectra electronic warfare system, giving the aircraft a multispectral threat warning capability against hostile radars, missiles and lasers. This system is fully integrated into the Rafale for excellent survivability against air and ground threats.

Spectra also contributes to passive tactical situation awareness, all-weather long-range detection, identification and location of threats, within a short response time. The system’s cutting-edge defensive measures are based on combinations of omni-directional AESA jamming, multi-band decoying and evasive manoeuvres, as well as on state-of-the-art technologies such as Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) signal processing.

Spectra’s angular location on the aircraft allows it to locate ground threats, to target them for destruction with precision-guided munitions, or to avoid them. Its threat library – which can be defined, integrated and updated on short notice by users in the home country – is instrumental to this performance. As operations unfold, protection onboard the Rafale can be continuously and fluidly enhanced using the system.


http://www.thalesgroup.com/Pages/NewsAr ... x?id=11665

also -

http://www.thalesgroup.com/Pages/Soluti ... 3&pid=1568

you may disagree on SPECTRA but that is what they claim.

finally this is not to say Gripen is not capable but just to say that a comparison needs to be broad based and not on some specifics.

cheers..

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Doddel » 07 Mar 2011 13:28

pragnya wrote:
on a side note even SU 30MKI does the same thing - acting as 'mini awacs' due to its high power radar and sharing the radar info with 4 others. however the ODL is not as good.

The Su-30MKI can function as a 'mini-AWACS' and can act as a director or command post for other aircraft. The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to atleast 4 other aircraft. This feature was first seen in the MiG-31 Foxhound, which is equipped with a Zaslon radar.


http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html#8

...does the same thing? Gripens datalink does much more than transferring target coordinates. One example is that incomplete data of the radars/sensors can be shared to create a "complete" radar picture. High quality tracking data can be shared and because of this missiles can be "ex-changed" between gripens. A gripen doesn't need to use its own radar or sensors to get a kill (but the radar can be used passively), it can turn away directly after the missile is fired while another gripen is guiding the missile (should be nice if the a/c that is guiding the missile is fired upon, then it can turn away and escape while the missile is still getting target data). The system is very capable today with the AIM-120 and gripen C/D and it should be even more capable with the METEOR and gripen NG. TIDLS is more than just sharing the tactical radar picture.
The data from one a/c can be recieved and used by an infinate number of a/c but only 4 gripens can transmitt (which I think is enough at most situations) at the same time (maybe this will increase with Gripen NG?).

That html-link doesn't work...

pragnya wrote:
The Indian-designed Data Link-II -- a communications system developed by BEL -- will enable exchange of tactical data and messages between Indian Navy aircraft, ships and shore establishments.


http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... e-aircraft


Do you have any more info of what the datalink can do?

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Rushi » 07 Mar 2011 13:44

Hi Friends I am Rushi & I am new in this Forum...But I am Reading this Forum & same related to MMRCA topic from last 2 years...My View related to this deal is that India must go for Gripen NG or Eurofighter or Rafal...,Best decision will be Gripen NG..by thinking on various point i feel Gripen NG or Divide it Gripen + any.....Thanks..

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Doddel » 07 Mar 2011 13:49

pragnya wrote:@Doddel

Gripen vs Rafale (A2A):

- Gripen has a much better Datalink (no one here has been able to show anything else). I think this is the greatest and most important advantage for gripen.

This advantage will be even greater when AWACS support is limited. Rafale is much more dependent on AWACS.


imo datalinks are pretty similar in capabilities. link 16/22 or Gripen TIDLS or the Thales TDL would are no different. it would be wrong to say Rafale will be dependant on the AWACS any more than Gripen. the only advantage for Gripen would be it can guide a Meteor. even here if any other country other than european opt for the Meteor, when will they get them??


Gripen is also using Link 16 because it should be able to operate close with NATO. SwAF does not have the opinion that it is similar to TIDLS. Do you have any source to back up that Thales TDL is similar in capabilities to TIDLS?

Rafale will get a different type of METEOR (without a 2-way link). Exactly how much this degrades the BVR capability I don't know and can be debated.

The ability to guide a METEOR is not the only advantage of the TIDLS.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby pragnya » 07 Mar 2011 15:25

...does the same thing? Gripens datalink does much more than transferring target coordinates. One example is that incomplete data of the radars/sensors can be shared to create a "complete" radar picture. High quality tracking data can be shared and because of this missiles can be "ex-changed" between gripens. A gripen doesn't need to use its own radar or sensors to get a kill (but the radar can be used passively), it can turn away directly after the missile is fired while another gripen is guiding the missile (should be nice if the a/c that is guiding the missile is fired upon, then it can turn away and escape while the missile is still getting target data). The system is very capable today with the AIM-120 and gripen C/D and it should be even more capable with the METEOR and gripen NG. TIDLS is more than just sharing the tactical radar picture.

The data from one a/c can be recieved and used by an infinate number of a/c but only 4 gripens can transmitt (which I think is enough at most situations) at the same time (maybe this will increase with Gripen NG?).


while i said SU 30MKI does the same, i also said it's datalink is not good enough. also a point to be noted here is while a SU 30MKI can be detected early due to it's high RCS it also has higher powered radar to detect smaller RCS aircrafts. IOW it is back to level and both would be doing the same. however as of now - as i said earlier SU 30MKI's datalink is not good enough which would be replaced in some time IMO. may be Datalink 2. :P

besides to get a complete picture of the situational awareness what one needs is net-centricity capability where all ground radars, awacs, other aircraft radar info, UAV info etc... can all be fused and sent to the fighters in question. in IAF case, while the AFNET grid is on, the IACCS is being put in place by networking all the assets and they hope to do it by 2012 IIRC. add in Datalink 2 and you have the complete picture. then it won't make much of a difference.

That html-link doesn't work...


works for me.

Do you have any more info of what the datalink can do?


unfortunately no. i don't think it would be easily available either, for civvies like us. what you would get is a general description. same with EW suites.

however check this out (more info) -

Image

Some info on Data Link II, courtesy BEL's Bangalore Office:

Data Link II enables communication in fleet ships, submarines, helicopters / aircraft and shore establishments. This system enables Indian Navy personnel to exchange messages as well as tactical data in a speedy, reliable and secure manner. Functions: Message communication, Tactical communication. Benefits: Force multiplication of fleet by presenting super tactical picture as each platform in the network has both local (received from tactical system) and remote tactical data (received from another platform over the network). Facility to give tactical commands from various platforms. In certain critical situations (e.g. to avoid detection near enemy area), platform has to switch off all its sensors, but it is still be able to get the tactical picture over the network with remote from other platform's sensors. Missions can be accomplished for targets which are not within reach of local sensors but are detected by other platform's sensors and their position and other information is sent over the tactical network. Data Link II consists of a Main Peripheral Unit (MPU), Display Unit (DU) and a Keyboard Unit (see photo).


http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/05/bo ... enous.html

Gripen is also using Link 16 because it should be able to operate close with NATO. SwAF does not have the opinion that it is similar to TIDLS. Do you have any source to back up that Thales TDL is similar in capabilities to TIDLS?


link 16 is a nato standard while TIDLS is a swedish specific hence it would not be operable with the NATO. every OEM will always hype their product so it will not be surprising to read what SAAB/SwAF says or what Thales says.

now the only thing left is Meteor communication with TIDLS which no doubt is good but how many can afford Meteor?? that too when it is still in development??

Rafale will get a different type of METEOR (without a 2-way link). Exactly how much this degrades the BVR capability I don't know and can be debated.

The ability to guide a METEOR is not the only advantage of the TIDLS.


do you have any source that the Rafale will get a different type of Meteor??

BVR itself is very hyped and unless you can get your enemy in NEZ you can be hardly be sure of the kill. check this out how factors affect a BVR shot -

http://www.x-plane.org/home/urf/aviatio ... s/aam.html

BVR is more a deterrance now and it will definitely be the future in due course as technology matures.

fwiw.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby chackojoseph » 07 Mar 2011 15:52


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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Doddel » 07 Mar 2011 16:14

pragnya wrote:
do you have any source that the Rafale will get a different type of Meteor??


Meteor will be 'network-enabled'. A two-way datalink will allow the launch aircraft to provide mid-course target updates or retargeting if required, including data from offboard third-parties. The datalink will be able to transmit missile information such as functional and kinematic status, information on multiple targets, and notification of target acquisition by the seeker.[5] The two-way datalink is compatible with Eurofighter and Gripen but not with Rafale which is fitted with a one-way link originally designed for use with MICA. French missiles will be fitted with a different unit.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBDA_Meteor

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Doddel » 07 Mar 2011 16:49

pragnya wrote:besides to get a complete picture of the situational awareness what one needs is net-centricity capability where all ground radars, awacs, other aircraft radar info, UAV info etc... can all be fused and sent to the fighters in question. in IAF case, while the AFNET grid is on, the IACCS is being put in place by networking all the assets and they hope to do it by 2012 IIRC. add in Datalink 2 and you have the complete picture. then it won't make much of a difference.


It already have a complete situational awareness together with AWACS and Ground radars:

TIDLS also gives the Gripen transparent access to the SAAB-Ericsson 340B Erieye "mini-AWACs" aircraft, as well as the overall ground command and control system. This system provides Sweden with an impressive defensive capability at a cost that, though still high, is less than that of comparable systems elsewhere.


http://jas39gripen.blogspot.com/

There is also more sources...

pragnya
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby pragnya » 07 Mar 2011 18:41

Doddel wrote:It already have a complete situational awareness together with AWACS and Ground radars:

TIDLS also gives the Gripen transparent access to the SAAB-Ericsson 340B Erieye "mini-AWACs" aircraft, as well as the overall ground command and control system. This system provides Sweden with an impressive defensive capability at a cost that, though still high, is less than that of comparable systems elsewhere.


http://jas39gripen.blogspot.com/

There is also more sources...


sir,

what is the use of swedish net centricity for us?? :eek: i am not speaking of Sweden but India. IAF is still in the process of networking it's assets both airborne and ground. IIRC to be completed by 2012. here is a link for you -

The Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS), an automated command and control system for Air Defence (AD) operations, will ride the AFNET backbone integrating all ground-based and airborne sensors, AD weapon systems and C2 nodes.


http://www.indianexpress.com/news/iaf-t ... e/678993/2

this entails all sensors and datalinks have to be integrated to the IAF specific IACCS and should ride the AFNET grid via satellites in the space. we are slowly reaching that stage. once this is done all our assets will be communicating with each other via the IACCS and get a true situational awareness which will change the way we fight our wars.

btw the AFNET grid is on.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... ic-warfare

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Kronop » 07 Mar 2011 20:44

I think what Doddel is trying to say is that TIDLS allows a group of four Gripen as an example perform by combining active and passive sensors to a level which is much higher than what usually can be expected without AWACS support by sharing data seamlessly.

For instance combining the target data accuired from 2 or 3 Gripen to launch missiles from a completely passive 4:th aircraft.

Adding integration to other mobile or stationary sensors/radars such as AWACS or any customer specific network will be a multiplier in terms of capability, this is of cource also true for any of the other MRCA contenders but with TIDLS as a baseline I believe that Gripen currently has the edge.

The Gripen system is designed from ground up to be able to operate effectively with little or no support in terms of ground crew, facilities, network infrastructure or external sensors etc.

Gripen also has one other advantage, being a small country not projecting a big threat to any neighbours and definately not Nato or the former Warzaw pakt, it's propriatery communication and EWS systems has not been the prime target for development of jamming equipment etc from either side.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby NRao » 08 Mar 2011 08:43

Slow day.

OT for sure, but I do see a US-Israel-India-Japan sort-of link happening in the future, like it or not.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby rajanb » 08 Mar 2011 12:06

IAF officer involved in air show scam

New Delhi: The air force has ordered a court of inquiry (CoI) against an officer accused of taking a bribe from a French arms company to better position its aircraft in the static display section of Aero-India held in Bangalore last month.
Wing Commander A K Thakur, a transport aircraft pilot who was among IAF officers deployed to oversee the arrangements at the airshow, was allegedly caught demanding and accepting Rs 20,000 from the French company officials for allotting a more advantageous position for its aircraft, said sources. TNN


http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=TOINEW&BaseHref=TOIBG/2011/03/08&PageLabel=8&EntityId=Ar00809&ViewMode=HTML&GZ=T

Rafale?
:rotfl:

SaiK
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 08 Mar 2011 16:58

One should :rotfl: at such men accepting bribe rather who is paying them. What can the Rafale people do to get this done? They will have to put it as marketing expenses.

Rafale should have rather complained to higher officials. Not just those men, but even external organization don't think right when it comes to ..

If we all had a shame aspect only..

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby NRao » 08 Mar 2011 17:30

Wondering if it was Rafale and EF. And, perhaps (plenty of assumptions here) after this incidence, Boeing and EF?

Kronop
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Kronop » 08 Mar 2011 20:39

Ideally there should be a strict company code of conduct in place curbing any bribes regardless to what intent the are aimed.
The worrying thing is that if anyone is prepared to pay for such a slight advantage... what will they also be willing to do to "win" the deal.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Lalmohan » 08 Mar 2011 20:41

heera mandi ishtyle operatives are used in lots of arms deals at various stages, there was a famous case when several swedish military and diplomatic officials got into some hot water in thailand some years ago... (for receiving phoonk sundari benefits, not giving...)

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Henrik » 09 Mar 2011 00:49

rajanb wrote:
IAF officer involved in air show scam

New Delhi: The air force has ordered a court of inquiry (CoI) against an officer accused of taking a bribe from a French arms company to better position its aircraft in the static display section of Aero-India held in Bangalore last month.
Wing Commander A K Thakur, a transport aircraft pilot who was among IAF officers deployed to oversee the arrangements at the airshow, was allegedly caught demanding and accepting Rs 20,000 from the French company officials for allotting a more advantageous position for its aircraft, said sources. TNN


http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=TOINEW&BaseHref=TOIBG/2011/03/08&PageLabel=8&EntityId=Ar00809&ViewMode=HTML&GZ=T

Rafale?
:rotfl:

Whoa! :eek:

Could this have an impact on the shortlisting?

SaiK
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 09 Mar 2011 03:10

naah! otoh, it is a definite career end for thakur saab.

even files disappearing did not bring down the process. there was even a bigger allegation against EADS middleman earlier. no one knows about it now.

this mrca saga, this incident could occupy a page if someone is making money to write a book about it. perhaps many in BR might be already seeing $$ in their eyes to publish such a book.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby sum » 09 Mar 2011 13:59

X-post:
sum wrote:More on the AI bribery case:

Deeper conspiracy in Aero India’s bribe-for-display case?

An Indian Air Force (IAF) officer who allegedly took bribes from one or more foreign aircraft companies to provide them favourable positions at last month's Aero India 2011 could be the prey in a conspiracy to oust a European firm in the race to bag the multi-billion dollar medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).

Investigations by Deccan Herald indicate that the name of P V Rao, a representative of French Dassault Systemes, manufacturer of the Rafael fighter aircraft, which is one of the planes being considered by the Indian establishment for the MMRCA, emerged in the bribes-for-display scandal involving Wing Commander A K Thakur against whom the IAF has initiated a Court of Inquiry (CoI) here.

Wg Cdr Thakur allegedly took Rs 20,000 from Rao to give the Rafael a favourable position on the static display area at Yelahanka airbase where the Aero India 2011 show was conducted. When contacted, Rao said: “An inquiry is on and I will make no comments at this point. Let the inquiry be over and only then will I make any comment.”

According to top defence sources familiar with the complaint against Wg Cdr Thakur, neither Rao nor any other Dassault representative complained against the errant officer either with the IAF top brass in Delhi or in Bangalore.

The sources said senior IAF officers in Yelahanka received a "verbal" complaint from an official of the Department of Defence Production and Supplies, saying that Wg Cdr Thakur had taken a bribe of Rs 20,000 from Rao. Incidentally, officials belonging to the Defence Exhibitions Organisation (DEO), which is under the Department of Defence Production and Supplies, had set the trap on Wg Cdr Thakur, as reported by Deccan Herald on March 6.

In this context sources said that Wg Cdr Thakur could only have come under the scanner if had taken bribes in the days before he was actually caught. "There are blacksheep in every organisation. The sources said that Wg Cdr was not senior enough in the hierarchy to make any huge difference to foreign vendors at the static display area. Besides, they said, decisions on placement of individual vendors would have been taken by the MoD at least a month in advance. However, due action in accordance with the IAF's procedures are on and he will be punished if there is sufficient evidence against him," a top defence official requesting anonymity told Deccan Herald.

On the day the complaint was lodged against Wg Cdr Thakur by the Assistant Provost Marshal, a joint secretary rank officer of the Department of Defence Production and Supplies, Satyajeet Rajan, was present. When Deccan Herald asked department's secretary Raj Kumar Singh whether Wg Cdr Thakur was a victim of a more sinister move, he refused to comment, saying only that the MoD spokesman would respond to all queries. The New Delhi-based spokesman, when contacted over phone, said he has "not been given a brief" by the ministry on this issue.

However, knowledgeable sources in the MoD suspect while Wg Cdr Thakur did accept the bribe, there could be a move afoot to push the French company out of the race by throwing in its name in the scandal that has hit the IAF and thereby scuttle its chances of bagging the ambitious multi-billion dollar contract that six foreign companies are vying for.

And so once again, the MRCA deal is back in the news for the wrong reasons!!!

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby shukla » 09 Mar 2011 14:34

Envoy pitches for US planes in $10.4-bn deal
Sify news

Addressing a conference on America and Asia organised by the Jawaharlal Nehru University here, Roemer said the Indian decision was the next logical step in taking forward the India-US relationship that he added was critical for world peace.

'Hopefully when India evaluates the six competitors for MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft), it decides one of the two American platforms... F-16s Super Viper (Lockheed Martin) and F/A-18 (Boeing) Super Hornet.


Asked if bilateral relations would be hit if American companies were not picked, Roemer reminded of the promises US President Barack Obama made in November 2010 -- on a reformed UN Security Council.

'I am an optimist... an optimist about US-India strategic partnership. I am an optimist about what President Obama announced when he was here... the UN membership for India, (DRDO and ISRO) coming off the Entity List, historical cooperation with India in regional and multilateral fora.

'Across the board, America is elevating, raising India to a global partner,' he said.

'MMRCA seems to be a logical next step in building strategic partnership on the defence side. But the people of India will decide that, the government will decide that.

'We hope (India will) look at US reliability as a strong strategic partner. We hope India will look at the technology... some of the best radars, avionics and targeting equipment in the world... some of the sophisticated technology anywhere,' he said.


Referring to the delivery of Lockheed Martin's C-130J in February, the ambassador expressed the hope that the 'on-time, on-budget' delivery of the transport aircraft for Indian Special Forces will be kept in mind when the MMRCA deal was finalised.

'We just delivered C-130J which were actually not only on time, but under budget.. slightly under budget. In the defence world today, that's a very important factor for tight budgets,' he added.


US hopes India will pick either F-16 or F/A-18 combat aircraft
Economic Times

"We are optimistic and want to build strategic ties with India and M-MRCA is going to be a very vigorous competition. But we are confident and hopeful," he added.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Doddel » 09 Mar 2011 19:10

pragnya wrote:what is the use of swedish net centricity for us?? :eek: i am not speaking of Sweden but India. IAF is still in the process of networking it's assets both airborne and ground. IIRC to be completed by 2012. here is a link for you -


The swedish datalink is increasing gripen's capability manifold and it is a very mature and proven system. The SwAF tactics is (and have been since the Draken fighter) centered around the datalink. As I have described earlier the TIDSL capability together with gripen is quite remarcable. It would be foolish not to consider ToT or exploit this capability if gripen is selected. As I see it this is one of the greatest "ups" of gripen.

When I am discussing datalinks you are questioning me... If I would have discussed radar/AESA - it would never be questioned. Doesn't it matter what type of radar that comes with the a/c - Of course it does. One thing about the TIDSL is that it is increasing the capability of the radar (and other sensors like IRST), because several radars can work as a unit. Both A2A and A2G capability is increased.

At least one concern that seems to be of importance is that the different contenders have different capabilities regarding datalinking. One obvius fact to regard is that RAFALE will cary an inferior METEOR. So it's BVR capability will in the future be decreased.

I can not say how IAF will act if they select gripen as the MMRCA. Maybe they will find this technology usefull and integrate the swedish TIDSL into Indian IACCS, or maybe they will let the two systems operate side by side. Or as you say they will go 100% for IACCS, but that would be stupid if it is not as good as TIDSL. If India will go 100% on IACCS then I beleive that talk about the TIDSL does not belong in the mmrca discussion.
Do you have any source of how they are thinking/planning?

If TIDSL tech is integrated succesfully into the Indian system (at least all future) IAF a/c will get quite a significant increase in capability (maybe the Jaguars (that don't have a radar) will get a BVR capability 8) ).

pragnya wrote:
The Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS), an automated command and control system for Air Defence (AD) operations, will ride the AFNET backbone integrating all ground-based and airborne sensors, AD weapon systems and C2 nodes.


http://www.indianexpress.com/news/iaf-t ... e/678993/2

this entails all sensors and datalinks have to be integrated to the IAF specific IACCS and should ride the AFNET grid via satellites in the space. we are slowly reaching that stage. once this is done all our assets will be communicating with each other via the IACCS and get a true situational awareness which will change the way we fight our wars.

btw the AFNET grid is on.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... ic-warfare


It doesn't say much about the capability. Will it be as capable as TIDSL? What type of system is it? Sounds like it is a "many users - low bandwidth - high latency" like the Link-16. Can it communicate directly between a/c? Is satellites the only way? (Seems a bit stupid when China have the tech to shoot down satellites)

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Kronop » 09 Mar 2011 20:18

To be honest the IACCS and AFNET thing sound more like the sort of communication solution put in place to meet National Security protection needs, i.e. a Civil Defence solution.

On the other hand the info given in the links above is very limited so it is hard to actually have an opinion on its capability and capacity.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby pragnya » 10 Mar 2011 14:55

The swedish datalink is increasing gripen's capability manifold and it is a very mature and proven system. The SwAF tactics is (and have been since the Draken fighter) centered around the datalink. As I have described earlier the TIDSL capability together with gripen is quite remarcable. It would be foolish not to consider ToT or exploit this capability if gripen is selected. As I see it this is one of the greatest "ups" of gripen.


ofc it is good. i never said otherwise. however to think this datalink is unmatched and has no parallel is strethcing it.

BTW here (a slightly old report) is an example of Rafale's datalink ability -

http://www.armees.com/Tir-MICA-depuis-u ... 22155.html

take it fwiw.

When I am discussing datalinks you are questioning me... If I would have discussed radar/AESA - it would never be questioned.


??

what did i question?? i was speaking of a larger picture of net-centricity/situational awareness and you came back saying Gripen has it and gave the swedish example which has no relevance for us!!!

Doesn't it matter what type of radar that comes with the a/c - Of course it does. One thing about the TIDSL is that it is increasing the capability of the radar (and other sensors like IRST), because several radars can work as a unit. Both A2A and A2G capability is increased.


no disagreement but even if you replace TIDSL with Datalink 2(if it is qualified and i assume yes because it goes on our P-8Is) or any other datalink, you get a similar picture because datalink is a communication suite.

the more important point here is 'sensor fusion' and most modern aircrafts are sensor fused including LCA (read B Harry's "radiance of tejas" article on BR) and the datalink helps in radar/irst/flir data transfer from one aircrfat to the other aircrafts but this data only provides, let me say - 'local situational awareness' but with net centricity the picture becomes bigger and clearer as the relevant data fused from multiple air/ground assets are datalinked to the aircrafts.

At least one concern that seems to be of importance is that the different contenders have different capabilities regarding datalinking. One obvius fact to regard is that RAFALE will cary an inferior METEOR. So it's BVR capability will in the future be decreased.


you are taking the wiki article as an authentic source which better be avoided. as for the Meteor itself questions regarding true operationalisation, capabilities remain as it is still in development. when you can get proven AMRAAMs and reliable MICAs/python 5s at a much lesser cost why would anybody bother Meteor?? even Mirage 2000 upgrade package has MICA component. besides we have our own ASTRA programme which had captive trials and should be coming to the fore in some time.

to say Rafale can only fire an inferior Meteor is also false. only it gets later than Gripen - links of which i have passed on before.

I can not say how IAF will act if they select gripen as the MMRCA. Maybe they will find this technology usefull and integrate the swedish TIDSL into Indian IACCS, or maybe they will let the two systems operate side by side.


possible if they select Gripen but to integrate it into the IACCS they would need source codes i guess.

Or as you say they will go 100% for IACCS, but that would be stupid if it is not as good as TIDSL. If India will go 100% on IACCS then I beleive that talk about the TIDSL does not belong in the mmrca discussion. Do you have any source of how they are thinking/planning?


100% of what?? i think you are unclear. IACCS/AFNET is what one means by net centric capability and what it can do is presenting a larger picture of tactical situation across the spectrum of the battle. you can pass the relevant info to the relevant platforms so that they can take an advantageous position to dictate the battle. now wrt datalinks, american aircraft means IMO signing of CISMOA which india will not accede to and hence either indian Datalink 2(as the navy has done with P-8Is) or some other datalink irrespective of which needs to be integrated into the IACCS/AFNET. if it happens to be Gripen NG then TIDSL will be integrated.

hope that clears.

If TIDSL tech is integrated succesfully into the Indian system (at least all future) IAF a/c will get quite a significant increase in capability.


again as i said TIDSL is no doubt good but that won't be the only factor to decide a platform because all modern ODLs will do a similar job. even here 'if' TIDSL is slightly better than the rest, the point is it does not bring a capability which is a game changer.

It doesn't say much about the capability. Will it be as capable as TIDSL? What type of system is it? Sounds like it is a "many users - low bandwidth - high latency" like the Link-16.


IACCS is a system where in you get the complete picture of the battle in your control room so that the relevant info can be datalinked to the concerned to get tactical advantage and this would be similar to any similar system in place elsewhere. A datalink on the other hand is a communication suite on platforms to communicate with this system/other datalinked aircrafts.

Can it communicate directly between a/c? Is satellites the only way? (Seems a bit stupid when China have the tech to shoot down satellites)


i don't think any pragmatic thinking force will keep it only 'one way' via the satellite. there would definitely a backup and i would safely assume - that this is factored in so in the event of satellite being taken down it will still be operational because the ground nodes will continue to get the signals, albeit less capable. this can be surmised from the fact that they (IAF) laid fibre optic cables across the country to get the AFNET grid on.

besides it is not easy to take down a satellite because that can be replicated by us too. you must have heard the drdo chief saying all systems are in place though they don't want to test it now (read GOI).

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Vipul » 11 Mar 2011 01:21

Price talks for 126 jets to begin this month: IAF chief.

India will this month begin the price negotiation for the $10.4-billion contract for 126 combat planes for its air force to conclude the deal by July this year, Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik said here Thursday.

"The cost negotiation for MMRCA will begin by the end of this month. I expect the contract to be signed before I retire from service in July this year," Naik, who interacted with the capital's women journalists, said.

India is buying 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for which it issued tender in August 2007. The six contenders for the contract, described in defence circles as 'mother of all deals', are American majors Boeing and Lockheed Martin , Russian United Aircraft Corporation , French Dassault, European consortium EADS-Cassidian and Swedish Saab.

Boeing's F/A-18, Lockheed Martin's F-16, United Aircraft Corporation's MiG-35, Dassault's Rafale, EADS-Cassidian's Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab's Gripen are the fighter aircraft in the fray.

The chosen combat jet will be the mainstay of IAF's fighter aircraft fleet for the next 40 years. The new MMRCA will replace the IAF's existing fleet of MiG variants.


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