MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 11 Mar 2011 01:51

The new MMRCA will replace the IAF's existing fleet of MiG variants.

So, all the upgrade $$ are for down the drain!? ddm is in an emergency situation where they are almost turning to madrassa schools for furthering their knowledge.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby nachiket » 11 Mar 2011 01:57

Vipul wrote:
"The cost negotiation for MMRCA will begin by the end of this month. I expect the contract to be signed before I retire from service in July this year," Naik, who interacted with the capital's women journalists, said.

Hope they let us know who they are negotiating with. We have had enough of the suspense.

The chosen combat jet will be the mainstay of IAF's fighter aircraft fleet for the next 40 years. The new MMRCA will replace the IAF's existing fleet of MiG variants.

126 aircraft can hardly be called the "mainstay", especially when we are going to operate 270 MKIs.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby narayana » 11 Mar 2011 09:25

'Hopefully when India evaluates the six competitors for MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft), it decides one of the two American platforms... F-16s Super Viper (Lockheed Martin) and F/A-18 (Boeing) Super Hornet.


we may end up with 126 Typhoons or Rafale plus 74 F-18s

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby ramana » 11 Mar 2011 09:46

There was time in the early 60s India wanted US fighter aircraft and was told they were too complex for India!

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 11 Mar 2011 09:54

http://www.bharatrakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=14516 India prefers to integrate alternatives to CISMOA specific equipment. CISMOA clause is backfiring on US, as it is not able to realize full potential of the multi billion dollar deals with India. .

sounds like it is a tussle for the khans without CISMOA. Now the ball has stuck on the barbed fence.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SidGupta » 11 Mar 2011 10:21

The cost negotiation for MMRCA will begin by the end of this month. I expect the contract to be signed before I retire from service in July this year," Naik, who interacted with the capital's women journalists, said.


I dont understand. Didnt they say last week that the off-set proposals have been delayed (by the GOI)?

Werent they supposed to only be negotiation with a 'narrowed list' of vendors, whose offset proposals, along with the IAF's trial results match the MoD's and GOI's expectations.

How can now suddenly the cost negotiations be expected to start in April? Or is this a case of ill-informed reporting? ('Mainstay' .. ?)

Maybe, what Naik said was - "the offset clause proposals will be submitted by end of this month and the process of drawing out a final list of contenders and price negotiation will begin by July"? Is there a video/audio of this interaction?
Last edited by SidGupta on 11 Mar 2011 10:26, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby svinayak » 11 Mar 2011 10:23

ramana wrote:There was time in the early 60s India wanted US fighter aircraft and was told they were too complex for India!

In the mid 90s the mktg prof was saying that India does not have money to buy products from US. It may have some market for def equip due to govt budget and dismissed it as not worth it

The narrative is the poor people are so vast that there is no need to sell anything
"The poor child and the rich child walk and go together" is the term used by the amirkhan

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 11 Mar 2011 17:44

bringing back this old link:-
http://www.8ak.in/8ak_india_defence_new ... ismoa.html

I don't want to quote or post the whole thing.. just for few who wants to get into details.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Samay » 11 Mar 2011 18:52

All they(usa) want to do is to achieve is to kill local(PSU) R&D by,

1)Restricting technologies by various methods,until CISMOA is agreed ,
2)After cismoa, keep on selling anything until they want it to control
Right now they are loosing billions,but in future they will dominate entire defence supplies worth much more.

Its just a case where who blinks first... This time they have someone who they like to be in power(MMS)
This gives them a unique opportunity.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby kmc_chacko » 11 Mar 2011 19:52

narayana wrote:
we may end up with 126 Typhoons or Rafale plus 74 F-18s



or 126+51 Rafael's & 74 F-18s

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Lalmohan » 11 Mar 2011 20:21

look at what the US has done to the british fighter jet making ability...
ofcourse, everyone will say, its just healthy market competition...

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Singha » 11 Mar 2011 20:46

I have a brilliant pakplan.

IN needs advanced fighters for IAC-1 and follow on carriers. the vikramaditya and shore based training sqdn can absorb the 30 Mig29K on order.

so order around 60 F-18IN for the IAC-1 and IAC-2 at a low rate of delivery. supplement with Tejas-N as planned. buy no more Mig29K.

meantime order 100 EF/Rafale for IAF and 50 more Tejas mk2.

looking at it holistically, a fighter onsite whether owned by IN or IAF is fighting for our cause with same intent and effectiveness...
Last edited by Singha on 11 Mar 2011 21:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 11 Mar 2011 21:27

as long as the shornets do not have the collar that can be held by unkill, and giving us a boot everything something triggers our patience and reaching threshold values towards pakis. can they do a ski jump?

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby RSoami » 11 Mar 2011 21:28

...I think they are negotiating with two or three of the six...
Will declare a winner...and sign the contracts...
And deal with legal issues later...
We are unlikely to know who the winner is till the contract is just some days away...

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Boreas » 11 Mar 2011 21:48

Lalmohan wrote:look at what the US has done to the british fighter jet making ability...
ofcourse, everyone will say, its just healthy market competition...


+++1

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby GeorgeWelch » 11 Mar 2011 22:07

Lalmohan wrote:look at what the US has done to the british fighter jet making ability...
ofcourse, everyone will say, its just healthy market competition...


The Eurofighter says their fighter jet making ability is just fine, thank you very much.

BAE is also a key F-35 partner.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby vic » 11 Mar 2011 22:17

Vipul wrote:"The cost negotiation for MMRCA will begin by the end of this month. I expect the contract to be signed before I retire from service in July this year," Naik, who interacted with the capital's women journalists, said.



Interesting!

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Austin » 11 Mar 2011 22:26

Acharya wrote:In the mid 90s the mktg prof was saying that India does not have money to buy products from US. It may have some market for def equip due to govt budget and dismissed it as not worth it

The narrative is the poor people are so vast that there is no need to sell anything
"The poor child and the rich child walk and go together" is the term used by the amirkhan


Well American do not really love the Indians but they love our money , it would be so Un-American of them not to love our money :P

They will sell us any thing as long as we can show them some green buck

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Austin » 11 Mar 2011 22:28

vic wrote:
Vipul wrote:"The cost negotiation for MMRCA will begin by the end of this month. I expect the contract to be signed before I retire from service in July this year," Naik, who interacted with the capital's women journalists, said.



Interesting!


Indeed it is , I have read couple of AirChief saying that and then retiring while MMRCA has out lived their office :rotfl: :rotfl:

Lets hope Naik is the lucky charm :mrgreen:

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Samay » 11 Mar 2011 22:31

It has 99% probability that the winner is already selected, all this delay is because they want scam-season to be over, then make it public ....

since money,huge money is involved and looking at the historical perspective, pray we dont have artillery type story repeated , just pray they atleast finalize something.Pukis would be working overtime to spread some scam news through jholawalas ..

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 12 Mar 2011 03:24

Austin, nobody would sell "anything" for money. It is too abstract to say that, and I think I know what you mean. Never in the American history sale, was "anything" sold that has no choke points.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Luxtor » 12 Mar 2011 09:05

Splitting the order of 126 jets between European and American jets is not a good thing. Doing so will negate the financial and industrial advantages. IAF/MoF will end up having to support two different aircraft, assembly lines, parts manufacture and procurement systems. Unless the Americans can give iron-clad guarantee that they under no circumstances would impose sanctions and withhold parts, expertise, maintenance and industrial cooperation even if we're bombing the hell out of the pukis with weapons of U.S. and other origins, then it would be foolish for India to walk into such a trap with eyes wide open. Never forget the Pokhran-2 related sanctions when Indian engineers working on the LCA fly-by-wire system in the U.S. were thrown out of the country so unceremoniously. I'm glad that India has resisted signing of the CISMoA agreements for the U.S. weapon systems that we have purchased so far. I hope no further purchases from the U.S. is entertained until the Americans agree to our terms and conditions of weapons purchase.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby shiv » 12 Mar 2011 09:19

Austin wrote:
Indeed it is , I have read couple of AirChief saying that and then retiring while MMRCA has out lived their office :rotfl: :rotfl:

Lets hope Naik is the lucky charm :mrgreen:



I am not referring to our air chiefs, but one advantage of huge delays is that people who take bribes or people who want to take bribes will move on, retire or lose their jobs. For example imagine a senior sales executive from EADS who wants to further his career by making a huge sale to india. he may mobilise funds to bribe a lot of people - but if the deal is not done in his time in office or even by the time any potential bribe takers are forced to retire, the bribe giving and bribe taking system is badly upset. By the time such a deal is signed by India - 3 or 4 CEOs would have come and gone from various companies and middlemen would have tried, failed and moved on.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby jai » 12 Mar 2011 12:18

shiv wrote:
Austin wrote:
Indeed it is , I have read couple of AirChief saying that and then retiring while MMRCA has out lived their office :rotfl: :rotfl:

Lets hope Naik is the lucky charm :mrgreen:



I am not referring to our air chiefs, but one advantage of huge delays is that people who take bribes or people who want to take bribes will move on, retire or lose their jobs. For example imagine a senior sales executive from EADS who wants to further his career by making a huge sale to india. he may mobilise funds to bribe a lot of people - but if the deal is not done in his time in office or even by the time any potential bribe takers are forced to retire, the bribe giving and bribe taking system is badly upset. By the time such a deal is signed by India - 3 or 4 CEOs would have come and gone from various companies and middlemen would have tried, failed and moved on.


Most likely, dealers and middlemen must have already figured out ways to handle this, they could not have survived in India otherwise, and Swiss banks would not hold so much Indian money otherwise....unfortunately, lobbies operate everywhere - including where you do not want them to - so, one guy leaving does not matter, because people belonging to the same lobby and smartly placed at the right places during the "mentors" tenure continue driving the agenda and making monies by doing so. These agendas are sometimes "held" for some time if a straight officer who can not be "managed" comes in...and continue as soon as he's transferred out or retired. This is also why no bureaucrats or politicians ever get convicted or punished in this country.....I suspect, this is also what Gen VK Singh alluded to when he spoke of "cleaning up" the services. Sadly, there is no one to clean the politicians and babus - except the supreme court of India, who too have not been active in defence matters ...lets see if the newly formed Armed Forces Tribunal can bring the required change.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby shiv » 12 Mar 2011 13:28

Jai and Pandyan - I am sure you guys are right. My insights into these issues cannot be more than that of a novice.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 12 Mar 2011 15:27

So, these 6 companies must employ an young CEO for higher chance of things happening for that company. Who is the youngest CEO of these 6 contenders? :twisted:

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby joygoswami » 13 Mar 2011 17:53

I hope not going to OT
Pentagon again back to its Bullying with their fighter.

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-237992-code-crisis-overshadows-turkeys-planned-purchase-of-f-35-jets.html

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Guddu » 13 Mar 2011 18:57

joygoswami wrote:I hope not going to OT
Pentagon again back to its Bullying with their fighter.

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-237992-code-crisis-overshadows-turkeys-planned-purchase-of-f-35-jets.html


I am not sure, it can be characterized as bullying, rather as protecting one's interests. If we build a jet fighter under license or even buy it, it does not entitle the buyer to source codes and technology transfer. This should not however stop the buyer from trying to negotiate the best deal possible. Maybe its time we realized that and stop bad mouthing the US or any other country on that count. No country will share the keys to the adytum....(except pakistan in advanced IT).

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby manum » 13 Mar 2011 19:08

shiv wrote:
Austin wrote:
Indeed it is , I have read couple of AirChief saying that and then retiring while MMRCA has out lived their office :rotfl: :rotfl:

Lets hope Naik is the lucky charm :mrgreen:



I am not referring to our air chiefs, but one advantage of huge delays is that people who take bribes or people who want to take bribes will move on, retire or lose their jobs. For example imagine a senior sales executive from EADS who wants to further his career by making a huge sale to india. he may mobilise funds to bribe a lot of people - but if the deal is not done in his time in office or even by the time any potential bribe takers are forced to retire, the bribe giving and bribe taking system is badly upset. By the time such a deal is signed by India - 3 or 4 CEOs would have come and gone from various companies and middlemen would have tried, failed and moved on.


so we also would have been derailed from where we started...what we wanted and in such a long stretch we ended up choosing, what came first at our sight...as with long grueling time everything will start looking the same...
In whole round of discussions we have had...did we ever reach to one conclusive point, which will be time proof and true all the time?...
Thing is not the CEO's or bribe people...but the ideology or doctrine which is simple and self-sustaining beyond personnel tenure, but then politics is not something easily explainable, if it has a role to play...

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 13 Mar 2011 21:41

Yes.. well said there Guddu. It is important we hire the best of lawyers and ensure we have drafted our needs with the supplier what exactly we want without hampering our future doctrines.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby sumshyam » 13 Mar 2011 22:52

An OT.

But, I am fed up with all the giggling of negotiations...! Waiting for the knock out punches...!

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby VinodTK » 14 Mar 2011 06:17


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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 14 Mar 2011 08:13

Indeed Saint Antony! good job there. Stay away from influencing firangs.

Excellent news for our low corruption index level.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Gurneesh » 14 Mar 2011 08:14

^^^Getting nervous about a US official visit so close to a big decision may mean that MoD might be considering a teen seriously and they want to make it clear that such a decision was taken after a lot of deliberation and not because of last minute pressure. Otherwise a good politician would be capable enough to not let such a visit overpower years of testing and planning (which may happen if Mod is planning to buy other than the teens).

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby shiv » 14 Mar 2011 09:19

Gurneesh wrote:^^^Getting nervous about a US official visit so close to a big decision may mean that MoD might be considering a teen seriously and they want to make it clear that such a decision was taken after a lot of deliberation and not because of last minute pressure. Otherwise a good politician would be capable enough to not let such a visit overpower years of testing and planning (which may happen if Mod is planning to buy other than the teens).


Exactly my thoughts.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby SaiK » 14 Mar 2011 09:20

mmm Gurneesh! nice point.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby svinayak » 14 Mar 2011 09:55

^^^^
Kumar was given treatment fit for a head of government during his visit, born out of Washington’s mistaken belief after dealing with banana republics and client states that such red carpet receptions can influence decisions in a country like India.



I think Title made them give the special treatment

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby ks_sachin » 14 Mar 2011 11:35

well said Gurneesh....

I have this sinking feeling that we will be saddled with the f,s........

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby Rakesh » 14 Mar 2011 21:10

We are in such overdrive mode to please unkil, that we will buy even the P-51 Mustang ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_P-51_Mustang ) if they were the only Amreeki aircraft in the MMRCA contest. All because unkil has laid the guilt trip for the nuclear agreement. How the GOI can even think to buy the Shornet (a glorified bomb truck) or the Super Viper over the Typhoon/Rafale is surprising to say the least. I would not be surprised if they split the order between the Shornet and the Super Viper. Make unkil really happy!! :)

We should remove the chakra in the Indian Flag and replace it with the stars from the Amreeki flag.

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Postby negi » 14 Mar 2011 21:14

^ :eek: , We will see as to what happens to the MRCA there is still time for that, now where is our Mithai ? :D


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