Indian Military Aviation

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Jun 2011 05:38

We should be ready to drop robotic assault brigade in the future.

Raman · Post by **Raman** » 18 Jun 2011 05:44

I disagree that we have the stretched version --- we have the SDRE Jerkules and not the TFTA -30. Look at the trailing edge of the wing in relation to the antenna on top of the fuselage.

later: in retrospect, I thing these are the stretched ones. The reference point not being the antenna (which seems different on the IAF aircraft) but the distance between the trailing edge of the wing and the strake of the fin. I stand corrected.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Jun 2011 06:03

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:C-130 ... eaning.jpg

A C-130J Hercules is cleaned up in the new wash system (nicknamed the Bird Bath) at Keesler Air Force Base, Mississippi. Aircraft from the Air Force Reserve Command's 403rd Wing fly many hours over the Gulf of Mexico. Salt and moisture could lead to corrosion if aircraft are not kept clean.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Jun 2011 06:06

^are you talking about refueler probe? I don't understand your disagreement.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 18 Jun 2011 11:19

It's a Milestone for a Magnificent Fighter

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 18 Jun 2011 11:45

It is the Stretch version, C-130J-30

Flickr : Lockheed Martin's Photostream
Click for (3130 x 1643)

On June 15, 2011 the third and fourth of six C-130J Super Hercules for the Indian Air Force departed the Lockheed Martin facility in Marietta, Ga. en route to Air Force Station Hindan in India.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jun 2011 16:21

on a side note, given the very low undercarriage, the pilot sure needs to be careful not to flare too much to avoid a tail scrape!

have heard of A340-600 types having tail scrapes...

SandeepS · Post by **SandeepS** » 18 Jun 2011 16:38

As per these snaps of IAF Hercs, the aircrafts are designated as C-130J:
In production
During induction ceremony of the first Herc at Hindon

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Jun 2011 16:39

As long as the pilot is not aggressive and stays within the limits tail scrapes should be very, very rare. Just googled and found 747 tail "strikes"!!!! To maintain simple discipline at those speeds is something.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Jun 2011 16:53

SandeepS wrote:As per these snaps of IAF Hercs, the aircrafts are designated as C-130J:
In production
During induction ceremony of the first Herc at Hindon

This from LM:

Indian Air Force Celebrates Induction Of First C-130J Super Hercules

The Indian Air Force (IAF) celebrated the induction to service of its first Lockheed Martin [NYSE:LMT] C-130J Super Hercules at Hindon Air Force Station, India, on Feb. 5.

The aircraft is the first of six C-130Js ordered under a U.S. Foreign Military Sale in late 2008. Senior representatives from the Indian and U.S. governments and air forces were present for the historic event.

They seem to use the term "C-130J" rather loosely.

Just to be sure:
* C-130J
* C-130J Super Hercules
* C-130J-30

?????

The ones IAF got are "Tactical" air lift planes. What I am not sure about is are all SHercs considered "Tactical".

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 18 Jun 2011 17:41

krishnan wrote:MTA will go no where , and will ultimately get scarped due to cost and time over run.

The first flight of the MTA is planned for 2016

Hindustan Aeronautics plans four new manufacturing plants.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has plans to set up four manufacturing plants for the production of medium multi-role combat aircraft, light utility helicopter, fifth generation fighter aircraft and multi-role transport aircraft, a senior company official said today.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Jun 2011 18:37

Neela wrote:
krishnan wrote:MTA will go no where , and will ultimately get scarped due to cost and time over run.
The first flight of the MTA is planned for 2016

First of all that is NOT the title of the article. Besides that we really do not know when it was posted. A clue (which surprisingly contains your title line):

At present, the conceptual phase works have been completed. The joint detailed business plan of the project has been worked out and initialed. The parties established the Russo-Indian joint venture, Multirole Transport Aircraft Limited. It is expected that the Russian and Indian sides will finance the project on par. The first flight of the MTA is planned for 2016

It is possible that the MTA can come out in 2016. Since it is not a ground up designed plane it should get done much faster.

However, offices have been opened in India, and, yet to be open in Russia (per the 2nd article you posted.) Since Russia has a larger need one would expect Russia to be more active in this matter. From open source that does not seem to be the case, which is reflected in the comments of some members.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 18 Jun 2011 19:13

China Needles, India Responds

:
The Air Force, currently the largest beneficiary of India’s rising military budget, is in the middle of shifting its focus from being a purely Pakistan-centric force, to one that will be capable of simultaneously meeting the twin threats posed by an insecure Pakistan and an increasingly belligerent China.
:
Air Force planners say this is just the beginning. Over the next three years, India has plans to deploy at least a squadron of Sukhois at Nyoma—currently just a basic air strip—about 25 kilometres from the Chinese border in the high altitude desert of Ladakh.

Military analysts say operationalization of the Nyoma airfield will be a major step in India beefing up its defences in the region close to a disputed boundary.
:

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Jun 2011 20:22

India well prepared for EW: PV NAIK
http://videos.sify.com/India-well-prepa ... jcbcb.html

PV Naik:
"As far as EW is concerned, hamne kaafi tarakki kar li hain. Koi aisi systems aap ko dega nahin. Aur dega to iski khoobiyaan, they will not share with you. In Electronic Warfare, indigenous development bahut acche tareeke se chal rahee hain."

English translation:
"As far as EW is concerned, we have made quite a lot of progress. Nobody will give you such systems, and if they do, they will not share the specifics. In Electronic Warfae, indigenous development is progressing very well."

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Jun 2011 23:54

While the talk about basing a squadron (versus maintaining a detachment) SU-30MKI at Nyoma seem too far fetched, IMO, one thing IAF needs to ponder over is the requirement of airbases in the northern sector to support CAS and point-defence in the Ladakh sector.

The closest bases are at Srinagar/Avantipur and Udhampur and then, Chandigarh and Ambala. While the former is at a distance of ~300kms from LAC as the crow flies, the other is in excess of 400kms. While a/c like MKI and MMRCA can provide the required AD cover, it will consume too many resources to provide CAP from far away aiirfields. At some point in time, we will need airbases in Ladakh sector in depth to provide continous coverage...the basing of det of MiG-29 at Leh is a good start. LCA squadron based in Leh and some other base towards south but in depth would be idle.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 19 Jun 2011 03:04

Pilatus to Sign Record Aircraft Deal with India

'Pilatus to Sign Record Deal with India'
The Indian Express

Swiss Pilatus Set to Supply 75 Trainer Jets to IAF : Report
Daily News & Analysis

Pilatus to Sign Record Aircraft Deal with India : Report

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Jun 2011 10:25

rohitvats wrote:While the talk about basing a squadron (versus maintaining a detachment) SU-30MKI at Nyoma seem too far fetched...

Rohit, it is plain posturing by IAF... or it could even be DDMities. IAF is developing capabilities to forward base fighters during tough times...so they'll send a detachment of Sukhois to forward bases to test the infrastructure but not base them permanently there... Basing Sukhoi in large bases like Tezpur or Bareily is one thing, an ALG like Nyoma is a different ball game all together. UNLESS, IAF has significantly improved the infrastructure there...

Vikram W · Post by **Vikram W** » 19 Jun 2011 10:39

<rant ahead>
Ref the 1 billion dollar deal for 75 planes. The deal sounds like a joke. @13 million dollars per turboprop is a outlandish price by any realm of imagination. The easy jets are available preassembled at $400,000 or lower ( thats a ball park of half a million compared to 14 million). Again there are a umpteen light trainers around the $100,000 mark. If this does not reek of "babudumb" , lobbies, and cough:kickbacks:cough , I do not what does. there is not much to a turboprop trainer than an engine and avionics. It is not like the forces are going to use these planes to drop bombs.
Compare -
http://www.pilatus-aircraft.com/ ( the 13 million dollar turboprop) with
http://www.glasairaviation.com/priceglasairSII.html ( sub $50,000 )

The HTT 34 turboprob has been doing trials for the past 4 years, and there was dissonance that it had manufacturing issues, but I am sure a fraction of this billion dollar spend could have solved these issues

A billion dollars is INR 4,500 crores. And the desi trainers like Pushpaks were going for about 30 lakhs. if not less. Being a desi patriot , I can not understand why , we can not use our own made basic turboprops. Also, please remember the economics of jobs and money recirculating in the economy.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jun 2011 12:14

sir the home recreational a/c you can buy is just the plane - you need to pay extra for any spares, training, simulators, support and have no real mission critical uptime need other than scrubbing a weekend flight.

botswana singned a deal for the same a/c recently ... $45 mil and 5 a/c with support pkg
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... iners.html

point taken about why HAL was not pushed to do it *well in time* before the current trainers were grounded in one shot. even some high priced consultancy could have been sought to reengine or fix whatever was causing the problems.

Vikram W · Post by **Vikram W** » 19 Jun 2011 12:25

Exactly my point, if the HTT had defects, it should have been worked on rather than giving out contracts to the swiss co. Also this looks like the bgigest order this firm has ever got. So far in the history of Pilatus, it has sold about 500 planes and now this order, which might go upto 200 acs.

what also grinds my gears is the smug look that the defence consultants/lobbests have around south block have these days

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jun 2011 12:42

ya being a *Swiss* co, the distance from source to sink of any 'back door deals' will be minimal indeed

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jun 2011 13:16

HAL is totally and completely overworked. There is far too much on their hands and not enough capacity.

When did the US get orders for Indian C-130Js? Was it 1999? 2001? 2005? 2009? Are they delivered yet?

I mean look at the industrial efficiency and capacity of the US. Can we even compare ourselves with that? If we can do 10% of what the US is capable of doing we will be doing great.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 19 Jun 2011 13:21

Vikram W, if Pilatus was the lowest bidder then do your claims of impropriety have any basis?

Alternatively, if Pilatus wasn't the real L1 bidder wouldn't the other bidders have something to say about that?

The only consensus is that HTT could've been given a much needed boost.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jun 2011 13:37

imo HAL should give up the MTA ghost (of getting ever more work and people) and focus on delivering and improving current projects and the new 10t medium helicopter proj and AMCA. anyone would have their hands full with just these two projects. but they also have to make 100s of dhruv variants, LCH, Tejas, Jaguars (I hope), MRCA (a huge order), MKIs (with IAF applying pressure for faster inductions), maintain all we have....plus UAV and UCAV projects....

their order backlog is in billions and order pipeline for next 15 yrs is overflowing.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 19 Jun 2011 13:49

The other option is that HAL can give the design data to a private company and ask them to manufacture the HTT... They still get a royalty payout and another company gets the know how to start assembling/manufacturing aircrafts...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jun 2011 13:53

Bala Vignesh wrote:The other option is that HAL can give the design data to a private company and ask them to manufacture the HTT... They still get a royalty payout and another company gets the know how to start assembling/manufacturing aircrafts...

The problem is there are precious few companies in India that can do this. Mahindra has now bought an Australian aviation firm and will be in a position to outsource such work to Australia. If the Tatas start up their aviation work in Hyderabad or Hosur maybe we will have one more. Apart from that we only have that Hosur company making the Italian beauty.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 19 Jun 2011 14:09

TAAL has some experience in manufacturing Hansa.. it would be the logical step up for them to manufacture the HTT.. After about 5-6 years they can be roped in to manufacture the IJT... thus taking the pressure off HAL.. JMO..

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 19 Jun 2011 15:46

Coast Guard to Procure Six Maritime Aircraft

Coast Guard to Procure Six Maritime Aircraft
19 Jun, 2011
PTI

NEW DELHI: The Indian Coast Guard is planning to procure six Multi-Mission Maritime Aircraft for enhancing surveillance in coastal areas and country's Exclusive Economic Zone.

The sea guarding force has expressed its intent to procure these aircraft soon after it Suspended its over two-year-long tender process for acquiring an equal number of Medium Range Maritime Reconnaissance (MRMR) aircraft.

"We are looking to procure six multi-mission aircraft for our aviation wing," a Coast Guard official said here.

Initial steps for the acquisition process have already been taken and the global tender for procuring these aircraft would be issued soon.

Officials said the aircraft should have both air to air and maritime surveillance radars to keep an eye on both airborne and seaborne threats and also help in locating, identifying and tracking them.

The force wants the aircraft to have the capability to integrate the latest Active Electronic Scanned Array radar which will allow it to have a 360 degree coverage of areas being scanned.

The Coast Guard also wants the aircraft to have the capability to mount the Ordinance Factory Board manufactured 12.7 mm machine gun as its fire power.

In the MRMR tender, the Coast Guard had already Completed Trials of Two Foreign Aircraft including the Russian Bereiv-200 Maritime Amphibious Aircraft and the Canadian Bombardier Aircraft.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 19 Jun 2011 15:55

When Spirits Went Soaring High

“In this age of uncertainty in job markets, becoming a fighter pilot not only fulfils my childhood dream, it also offers a recession-proof job,” said Flying Officer Tejas Subhas Kawale.

Sense of Achievement

The energy and sense of achievement in these cadets was infectious. One could see the new officers expending their boundless energy as they did push-ups, irrespective of their sex, behind the pavilion while chanting

‘Bharat Mata Di Jai'.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 19 Jun 2011 16:03

“Marut”
The Tribune, Chandigarh, India

Mathews, who was here as the chief guest at a function organised by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to celebrate 50 years of the first flight of the first indigenous fighter jet “Marut”, further said India was far ahead of its adversaries in terms of its nuclear firepower.

The Air Marshal, who has clocked 300 hours of flying on Maruts, described as “heady” the time when the Marut project was successfully executed by HAL.

He said the Marut pilots had a special relationship with the fighter because it was indigenous and it was not as good as one expected it to be.

“One had to continuously nurture it,” Mathews said, adding that the pilots grew quite attached to their Maruts because of the special attention those planes required.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 19 Jun 2011 16:13

I mean look at the industrial efficiency and capacity of the US. Can we even compare ourselves with that? If we can do 10% of what the US is capable of doing we will be doing great.

C-130 line has been running hot for a long long time. still I'll give you the argument.

But are they good overall? - hell no they aren't. In aerospace yes, still but barely. and they are doing well in no small part due to east asian supply chains which are frightfully good. there is a reason why they want you to build a door for their planes and ship it back in for final assembly.
As I noted in the international military discussion thread - most of the bells and whistles that go into US aerospace including the chips that run them are outsourced. it's a global industry not a US industry and they have an incumbent advantage as system integrators. it's a legacy issue directly born out of years of sunk capital costs in the form of DOD budget.
In a whole host of other sectors they are crap. Like? glad you asked - steel for instance. they are bad and they are expensive which is why the bells have been tolling there for some time now.

So what is the point you may ask?
Point is let our private sector in on the ground floor and we will be doing much better. much much better. they will be far quicker in integrating themselves with global supply chains, acquire whichever fre *** concern they have to for their business, bring in the best guys and make ourselves a real aerospace industry rather than a monopolistic overworked PSU.

It's time to end this "strategic sector' crap and let our own guys in.

P.S : Who is the lowest cost producer of steel in the world? - India.
Who is the lowest cost producer of Aluminum in the world? - India.

Who is more Industrially Energy Efficient?

China? No. America? No.

India? Yes. Correct. India leads that pack.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 19 Jun 2011 18:26

rohitvats wrote:The point about basing C-130J in Hindon actually confused me as well. The only rational can be the fact that it is the main base for Garud Commando Force (GCF). There are no IA SF units nearby nor NSG will require them. Or, is it that Agra base is full and infra cannot take any other squadron?

Singha wrote:Agra has a bunch of IL76 incl phalcons. so maybe space is a constraint.

again brings up my persistent demand for bigger desi ramsteins and offutt type airbases which can house *dozens* of big birds efficiently in peacetime, which will disperse in war.

only 2 C 130s are going to be based in Hindon. rest in Agra(??).

also some important nuggets from this IE link -

Browne said Nyoma would provide the IAF an option for basing its potent aircraft in Ladakh region apart from Leh air base.

Nyoma was, in fact, a better option for deployment of fighter jets due to the weather and wind conditions there, he noted.

Browne said the Nyoma air base, as also Daulat Beg Oldi, would be capable of handling modern transport aircraft including the C-130Js bought from the US for Indian special forces and the C-17s for which orders have been placed with the Americans.

India is getting six C-130Js beginning next year, of which two would be based at the Hindon air base in Ghaziabad closer to the capital where infrastructure development works are on the verge of completion. It has also placed orders for 10 C-17 heavy transport aircraft with the US this year.

India's Nyoma will be major air base near China border: IAF

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Jun 2011 19:31

The reason Nyoma is likey to emerge as major airbase parallel to Leh is because of geography.

The area lies along the Indus and this provides a level approach road whic runs along the Indus - the National Highway-1D. So, no passes to cross before reaching this location. Also, all along this road, the mountains are to east - so, the base and road are in shadow of the mountains and this gives security not only against threat of interdiction of communication axis but also from arty fire (to an extent). Another interesting point - the route followed by Indus as it enters India from Tibet is considered good enough to support a Divison level thrust from the PLA. And the base sits bang on this route.

Dulet Beg Oldie (DBO) is important as it will support the entire DBO complex east of Shyok river - which is like an isolated and land-locked sector.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jun 2011 19:54

more than fighters (which can sortie from further away), we need strong units of scout , transport and gunship helis based at these AGLs with a network of satellite land/refuel/rearm/lie-low helipads strung along the major roads where trucks can reach.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Jun 2011 21:13

pragnya wrote:Browne said the Nyoma air base, as also Daulat Beg Oldi, would be capable of handling modern transport aircraft including the C-130Js bought from the US for Indian special forces and the C-17sfor which orders have been placed with the Americans.
India's Nyoma will be major air base near China border: IAF

If ACM Naik was considered a CAS who kickstarted and saw thru platform acquisitions, CAS Browne will probably go down in history as the CAS of bases. even during his stint in Western Command, he was the bases guy upgrading, expanding bases...with MAFI and other initiatives kicking-in, we are going to see major expansion of IAF bases across the country... particularly along the Chini borders...

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 19 Jun 2011 21:14

You are here: Home » National » India's first indigenous jet was left to die young.

This day, 50 years ago, was a red letter day for the Indian Air Force’s indigenisation programme when the country’s first fighter plane – Hindustan Fighter-24, aka, Marut – took to the air for the first time.

Today, 50 years later, the IAF has no indigenously built aircraft of any worth. The enthusiam that was associated particularly with Marut died a natural death because of a combination of two factors: import pressures in general and under-powered engines for the aircraft.

Retired IAF officers told Deccan Herald that neither Air Headquarters nor the Ministry of Defence pursued the indegenisation programme beginning with Marut manufactured by the then Hindustan Aircraft Ltd, later christened as Hindustan Aeronatics Ltd (HAL), with gusto. According to Wg Cdr (retd) Praful Bakshi, Marut’s “Achilles heel” was its engine.

“After the GNAT started flying, Kurt Tank (a German who had earlier designed the Focke-Wolf) designed the HF-24” which was a “remarkable aircraft but fell short because of the lack of a proper engine”.

After the aircraft was commissioned, three squadrons were formed and some of them saw action during the 1971 Indo-Pak war in which it took a lot of hits, as one retired IAF officer said.

At the manufacturing stage, Rolls Royce agreed to make an engine for the Marut at a cost of Rs 7 lakh per engine. But after the company’s factory in Egypt was bombed by the Israelis in an air attack the IAF re-designed the aircraft, fitting two GNAT engines on it.

“This did not help because the frame was designed for Mach 2-3 speed and the engines were grossly under-powered,” another retired IAF officer said, adding that with no significant help from western countries in developing the Marut’s engine, the plan to manufacture more of the HF-24 was dropped.

According to Wg Cdr Bakshi, “the Marut was the only aircraft which flew supersonic without an afterburner, an aspect which “our planners never gave importance to. Besides, the defence establishment “never thought that this was a great tactical advantage. Senior personnel did not want to fly this aircraft because the worksmanship of HAL was not up to the mark,” he notes.

The IAF was “happy because nobody wanted an indigenous programme” even though the Marut could do 640 knots, fly low level with four tanks” (comparable to the American F-22).

Most retired IAF officers Deccan Herald spoke to faulted the Marut’s engine whose under-performance was the main reason why production of the aircraft was grounded.

“Imagine what a Rs 4-crore investment could have done to the aircraft”, Air Marshal (retd) S K S Ramdas said, adding: “Some of the aircraft had not even clocked 10-12 hours on the log and there was one which had logged only three hours. Only a very rich country like ours could afford such a colossal waste,” he said.

Another retired Air Marshal said that several test pilots lost their lives because of a combination of mehcanical faults, including a below par engine. The fighter plane’s reputation was marred by technical glitches, including fuel leakages and a problem with the canopy, which eventually took the life of Group Capt Suranjan Das.

After the Indo-Pak war, the government virtually stalled the IAF’s programme tilting to the seductive appeal of imports which included the procurement and operationalisation of the Russian MiG-21s which subsequently suffered because of the availability of spare parts.

Now, the aircraft lies all across India in various airfields and the authorities at Air Headquarters and HAL here look the other way because it was a source of embarrassment.

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 19 Jun 2011 22:04

^ That's one thing I don't get about the Marut. There were other jets with early-tech supercruise at the time, are they saying it had a better form of it, or a "truer" supercruise?

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 20 Jun 2011 01:41

Since it is being mentioned that M2000 upg will take 9 years to complete, would it not be easier and cost effective to just put the Tejas systems (Radar, cockpit, HMDS, HOTASS etc.) including the armaments that Tejas will be certified for on M2000. Anyways the engine is not being changed. This might be a cheaper solution to fill the gap till all MMRCA and Tejas Mk2 have been inducted.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 20 Jun 2011 04:30

Defence brass split over French Mirage upgrade deal

DDM as usual, without proof reading, quotes cost to upgrade each plane as $7.9 million

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jun 2011 05:02

putnanja wrote:Defence brass split over French Mirage upgrade deal

DDM as usual, without proof reading, quotes cost to upgrade each plane as $7.9 million

Considering that a web post is correctable ........................................ true.

However, if my math is correct, the upgrade will cost, what, some $77 mil per M2K and the Rafale comes in at about $82 mill per? IF the issue really is re-start of the M2K supply chain, then it is not worth it. Just plunk in for more Rafales.