Indian Military Aviation

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chandanus
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby chandanus » 02 Sep 2011 23:00

rohitvats wrote:Well, I don't know what is your source of information (I hope it is not Outlook) but certain thiings need to be seem in context.

Pilots are the top dog in the entire matrix of IAF. Let there be no ambiguity about it. The entire AF, whether in India or abroad, revolves around them. Even in this pyramid, the fighter pilots are the spear tip. So, it is but obvious that the IAF is shaped by these men. This is not to belittle other elements in the IAF but a statement of facts. But the immideate trigger was not this - this has been and will remain the norm. It was the increment in the flying allowance of Pilots - with that of Fighter Pilots>Transport>Helicopters. This led to disparity in the payment and you had what you read.

Most, if not all, operational commands are with fighter pilots and as are bases. There are certain anomalies in this which need to be corrected - for example, the CO of a Missile Squadron is a Fighter Pilot - this when they have a dedicated stream of people in IAF for AD role.

As far as the promotion goes, the same is generally uniform but then there might be pecularities. Having said that, all this talk of mistreatment and unfair play is hogwash...for example, unlike the IA, the JCO/Other ranks in IA are mostly from technical/science background and well read. The atmosphere in IAF is far relaxed as compared to IA. No helpers or sahayaks for IAF officers and very limited organic transport.

Coming to 'punishment' part - well, I don't know what the concerned person did - but there were cases of stoning the base commander's, men from technical branch airing their grievances on air on international frequencies, gheraoing the senior officers and sloganeering etc. So, if the concered officer was involved in any of the above or instigated the same, he deserves what he got and some more.


Mr. Vats..definitely my source is Outlook .....I just read article about this ....What i find unacceptable..is that officers were first asked to go to leh ..then were sent to hashimara torture cells ..how can u lie and do this to ur very own people.... If some of the the officers did committed some acts , unbecoming of an officer ..Court Martial them and ask them first , and if proven guilty make them to put down their n papers..I guess we are not IRAQ or some ARAB kind of air force...I think we are the only AF in the world which has committed act like this !!!

The OUTLOOK article looks reliable to me as it includes various specific examples , dates , names and figures...For eg ..Mr. Nagesh just wrote a letter and for this he was punished ..how can one justify this....??

I started looking article on this stuff after my friend who is in IAF mentioned this and what i , accidently , found comes as a rude shock to me as i am all set to :roll: :roll: Join IAF in coming JAN 2012 in Technical branches ...seriously now having second thoughts to join or not !!!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 02 Sep 2011 23:11

'torture cell' in hashimara AFS ??? :roll: and you think outlook is reliable ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 02 Sep 2011 23:12

'torture cell' in hashimara AFS ??? :roll: and you think outlook is reliable ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Bala Vignesh » 02 Sep 2011 23:41

Rahulda,
At the risk of irking you, let me state that just because the article is published by Outlook doesn't mean that the story may not be true. I am just being the devil's advocate here, saying that let's give the matter some consideration before we beat down the journals.
Chandanusji,
Like Rohitmullah said, We are talking about the "Air Force" here, so obviously the pilots are top dogs here and the Fighter jocks reign supreme among them. So, yes, they will be in the key positions in the force's structure and the policies will be made as per their version of right and wrong. That does not mean that the officers of the other branches are getting manhandled and abused. In fact i know of cases where the Jocks have openly agreed and accepted that without the other branches support they would never be able to do what they do best, fly and fight.
So i suggest that you accept that in a force that relies most on the specialty of a select few, the rules are going to be a bit skewed but not completely unilateral, and join the force.
JMO.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 02 Sep 2011 23:57

bala, I remember the issue as it happened. the fighter pilots were given a risk allowance for the duration of their flying career by the 5th pay commission. a section of the technical and flying streams, sans the fighter pilots strongly objected to this as discrimination and in addition to the antics described by rohit, went on a de facto strike, bringing large parts of critical IAF services to a standstill in turn endangering the country. parts of their demands were readily met and in all probability would have been met even without the strong arm tactics.
when the leaders of this movement were singled out for indiscipline they went to town with all kinds of cock and bull story, all of which were thrown out IIRC.
outlook, true to its nature, saw an opportunity to expose "fascist" India and jumped in with both feet to fan the fires.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby rohitvats » 03 Sep 2011 01:13

chandanus wrote:<SNIP> Mr. Vats..definitely my source is Outlook .....I just read article about this ....What i find unacceptable..is that officers were first asked to go to leh ..then were sent to hashimara torture cells ..how can u lie and do this to ur very own people.... If some of the the officers did committed some acts , unbecoming of an officer ..Court Martial them and ask them first , and if proven guilty make them to put down their n papers..I guess we are not IRAQ or some ARAB kind of air force...I think we are the only AF in the world which has committed act like this !!!

The OUTLOOK article looks reliable to me as it includes various specific examples , dates , names and figures...For eg ..Mr. Nagesh just wrote a letter and for this he was punished ..how can one justify this....??

I started looking article on this stuff after my friend who is in IAF mentioned this and what i , accidently , found comes as a rude shock to me as i am all set to :roll: :roll: Join IAF in coming JAN 2012 in Technical branches ...seriously now having second thoughts to join or not !!!


To begin with, you can cut out the "Mr." part - no offense but it is irritating.

Now, coming to Outlook, well, I have followed that magazine for many years now and invariably, if there is ever a hit job of the worst kind, it appears in the Outlook. They made every possible effort to tarnish the image the an ex-CNS some time back by printing cock-and-bull stories in edition after editions, knowing fully well that the said person, governed and guided by rules of his service, is in no position to fight back. And, I do know a thing or two about Services to seperate wheat from chaff. So, if I have reservations about Outlook and stories it prints, I have my reasons.

I guess, this is article you've been reading: http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?205376

Now, I can blow 10K holes into that story but that would be wastage of time and effort. For a simple reason that, it tells only what seems sensational. That article is meant to generate the very feelings you're expressing by selectively quoting facts. The story only 'alleges', paints a scenario of grave torture and subjugation and and you've bought the story hook-line and sinker.

But let me ask you to do something - try and find a follow up article in Outlook on this very issue or, see if they take this topic to its logical conclusion and let the readers know as to what happened in the end. And please, do share with us if you find anything.

Coming to what happened during the said time period - please understand one thing before hand - In Services, along with other related government agencies, some of your fundamental rights, guaranteed under constituions, are suspended. Even slightest of deviation from the accepted rules and regulations can land you in trouble. Let me give you an example - an officer was subjected to Court of Inquiry because he went to location X which was 35kms from his unit location on sunday w/o telling his unit.

Compared to the above, what the officers in technical and tpt wing did (going slow) is something unparalleled in history of Services - save for the mutiny by Sikh troops in 1984. Most of the officers were punished/pulled up for this...people have lost their jobs in the Services for much less. Yes, it is very likely that some of them got engulfed in the developments, but others did get what they deserved. There is no amount of justification - Pay Commission, or no Pay Commission - for what these men did. Being in the uniform, and having taken an oath, you do not, repeat do not, do anything to jeopardize the safety of the Nation. Pure and Simple.

Please read this article in the very same Outlook on what men, and their wives, did:

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?204850

If you trust the same Outlook article in terms of treatment to Officers, I hope you will accept the acts of commissions and ommissions by these same officers as given in this article.

And if you really want to read a balanced article on what happened, please read this:http://iaf00.tripod.com/pay.html

An excerpt on your Officer, Mr. Nagesh:

The IAF top brass finally cracked the whip. Wing Commander K.R. Nagesh, an electronics engineer and the most prominent rebel in the force, was arrested and placed under custody for dereliction of duty on January 22, 1998. His crime: he led the IAF's engineering and technical cadres in an unprecedented protest strike in December. For the first time in the history of the Indian Air Force, a wing commander faced a court martial for protesting against pay disparities. Nagesh fought back, he approached the Delhi high court with a writ petition challenging the IAF's 'system of disciplinary action' which, he said, amounted to abject human rights violation. After 16 days being held in custody at the IAF's Palam air force base in New Delhi, Nagesh was released on February 7. IAF spokesperson Squadron Leader R.K. Dhingra said that the authorities were forced to take extreme action after a near mutiny by ground duty officers -- engineers and technical cadres -- badly hit several air force bases across the country. Dhingra said there is nothing new in the system of disciplinary action and court of inquiry against Nagesh. "We have recorded evidence against Nagesh. Now a competent authority within the IAF will decide what action should be taken against him,'' he said. The IAF official argued that the action should not be seen as ''an excess from the air force wing.'' ''The IAF is a disciplined organisation and we have to live with it,'' he added.


Added later:

Please read this from Indian Express dated Fen 04, 1998: http://www.indianexpress.com/Storyold/20643/

NEW DELHI, February 3: The Delhi High Court today upheld the legality of the detention of Wing Commander Nagesh by the Indian Air Force and dismissed a habeas corpus alleging that the detention was illegal and coercive in nature.

A division bench comprising Justice Devinder Gupta and Justice N.G. Nandi while dismissing the public interest litigation said the officer was detained "under lawful authority. As the person has been detained under lawful authority, there was no reason for the court to interfere in the matter''. The bench, however, observed, "Such detentions should not be harsher than what is required.'' A petition filed by Sqn Ldr (rtd) J.S. Puniya and V.J. Dabas alleged that Wng Cmdr Nagesh was put under `close detention' for giving a representation against the huge disparity of pay between pilots and ground duty officers.

Appearing for IAF, Rakesh Tiku and Rekha Palli pointed out that the detention was fully within the powers provided under the Air Force Act and that summary of evidence has already began in the case of `wilful disobedience' shown by Nagesh. Tiku further said the detention has already been challenged by Nagesh before a single judge bench in the High Court hence the habeas corpus was not maintainable.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby negi » 03 Sep 2011 02:39

You cannot go against the high command it's as simple as that there is no question of right/wrong here; anyone who knows about the system will realize that all these proceedings are out of bounds for the civil courts (unless a civilian is involved there is no scope for police/judiciary to intervene). There is no room for dissent in forces , period. People have been court-martialed for not turning up on time or even an altercation with a superior. That is why one would see after an individual has been court-martialed more often than not he/she do win their case in the armed forces tribunal and at least get their pension funds re-instated.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby chackojoseph » 03 Sep 2011 14:03


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby chandanus » 04 Sep 2011 20:45

rohitvats wrote:
chandanus wrote:<SNIP> Mr. Vats..definitely my source is Outlook .....I just read article about this ....What i find unacceptable..is that officers were first asked to go to leh ..then were sent to hashimara torture cells ..how can u lie and do this to ur very own people.... If some of the the officers did committed some acts , unbecoming of an officer ..Court Martial them and ask them first , and if proven guilty make them to put down their n papers..I guess we are not IRAQ or some ARAB kind of air force...I think we are the only AF in the world which has committed act like this !!!

The OUTLOOK article looks reliable to me as it includes various specific examples , dates , names and figures...For eg ..Mr. Nagesh just wrote a letter and for this he was punished ..how can one justify this....??

I started looking article on this stuff after my friend who is in IAF mentioned this and what i , accidently , found comes as a rude shock to me as i am all set to :roll: :roll: Join IAF in coming JAN 2012 in Technical branches ...seriously now having second thoughts to join or not !!!


To begin with, you can cut out the "Mr." part - no offense but it is irritating.

Now, coming to Outlook, well, I have followed that magazine for many years now and invariably, if there is ever a hit job of the worst kind, it appears in the Outlook. They made every possible effort to tarnish the image the an ex-CNS some time back by printing cock-and-bull stories in edition after editions, knowing fully well that the said person, governed and guided by rules of his service, is in no position to fight back. And, I do know a thing or two about Services to seperate wheat from chaff. So, if I have reservations about Outlook and stories it prints, I have my reasons.

I guess, this is article you've been reading: http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?205376

Now, I can blow 10K holes into that story but that would be wastage of time and effort. For a simple reason that, it tells only what seems sensational. That article is meant to generate the very feelings you're expressing by selectively quoting facts. The story only 'alleges', paints a scenario of grave torture and subjugation and and you've bought the story hook-line and sinker.

But let me ask you to do something - try and find a follow up article in Outlook on this very issue or, see if they take this topic to its logical conclusion and let the readers know as to what happened in the end. And please, do share with us if you find anything.

Coming to what happened during the said time period - please understand one thing before hand - In Services, along with other related government agencies, some of your fundamental rights, guaranteed under constituions, are suspended. Even slightest of deviation from the accepted rules and regulations can land you in trouble. Let me give you an example - an officer was subjected to Court of Inquiry because he went to location X which was 35kms from his unit location on sunday w/o telling his unit.

Compared to the above, what the officers in technical and tpt wing did (going slow) is something unparalleled in history of Services - save for the mutiny by Sikh troops in 1984. Most of the officers were punished/pulled up for this...people have lost their jobs in the Services for much less. Yes, it is very likely that some of them got engulfed in the developments, but others did get what they deserved. There is no amount of justification - Pay Commission, or no Pay Commission - for what these men did. Being in the uniform, and having taken an oath, you do not, repeat do not, do anything to jeopardize the safety of the Nation. Pure and Simple.

Please read this article in the very same Outlook on what men, and their wives, did:

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?204850

If you trust the same Outlook article in terms of treatment to Officers, I hope you will accept the acts of commissions and ommissions by these same officers as given in this article.

And if you really want to read a balanced article on what happened, please read this:http://iaf00.tripod.com/pay.html

An excerpt on your Officer, Mr. Nagesh:

The IAF top brass finally cracked the whip. Wing Commander K.R. Nagesh, an electronics engineer and the most prominent rebel in the force, was arrested and placed under custody for dereliction of duty on January 22, 1998. His crime: he led the IAF's engineering and technical cadres in an unprecedented protest strike in December. For the first time in the history of the Indian Air Force, a wing commander faced a court martial for protesting against pay disparities. Nagesh fought back, he approached the Delhi high court with a writ petition challenging the IAF's 'system of disciplinary action' which, he said, amounted to abject human rights violation. After 16 days being held in custody at the IAF's Palam air force base in New Delhi, Nagesh was released on February 7. IAF spokesperson Squadron Leader R.K. Dhingra said that the authorities were forced to take extreme action after a near mutiny by ground duty officers -- engineers and technical cadres -- badly hit several air force bases across the country. Dhingra said there is nothing new in the system of disciplinary action and court of inquiry against Nagesh. "We have recorded evidence against Nagesh. Now a competent authority within the IAF will decide what action should be taken against him,'' he said. The IAF official argued that the action should not be seen as ''an excess from the air force wing.'' ''The IAF is a disciplined organisation and we have to live with it,'' he added.


Added later:

Please read this from Indian Express dated Fen 04, 1998: http://www.indianexpress.com/Storyold/20643/

NEW DELHI, February 3: The Delhi High Court today upheld the legality of the detention of Wing Commander Nagesh by the Indian Air Force and dismissed a habeas corpus alleging that the detention was illegal and coercive in nature.

A division bench comprising Justice Devinder Gupta and Justice N.G. Nandi while dismissing the public interest litigation said the officer was detained "under lawful authority. As the person has been detained under lawful authority, there was no reason for the court to interfere in the matter''. The bench, however, observed, "Such detentions should not be harsher than what is required.'' A petition filed by Sqn Ldr (rtd) J.S. Puniya and V.J. Dabas alleged that Wng Cmdr Nagesh was put under `close detention' for giving a representation against the huge disparity of pay between pilots and ground duty officers.

Appearing for IAF, Rakesh Tiku and Rekha Palli pointed out that the detention was fully within the powers provided under the Air Force Act and that summary of evidence has already began in the case of `wilful disobedience' shown by Nagesh. Tiku further said the detention has already been challenged by Nagesh before a single judge bench in the High Court hence the habeas corpus was not maintainable.


Well , Vats...(Feels very awkward as my office culture asks us to address everybody as Mr.X , Mr.Y , Mr.Z etc ) seriously busy this weekend..had a chat with a couple of my uncles who are serving with IAF , related to 1998 incidents ...will post my reply soon ....

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Abhibhushan » 06 Sep 2011 21:04


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Pratyush » 08 Sep 2011 22:37

Over 300 Sukhoi-30, Tejas aircraft to be inducted into IAF

Can some one explain what is the meaning of this news.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sharma.abhinav » 08 Sep 2011 22:49

Pratyush wrote:Over 300 Sukhoi-30, Tejas aircraft to be inducted into IAF

Can some one explain what is the meaning of this news.


:) I think our beloved mantri ji meant that the IAF would be inducting 270 Su-30 + 40 Tejas = 310 brand new 4th gen fighter aircrafts. Or the IAF would be inducting approximately 300 Su-30's and Tejas aircraft. :D


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sum » 09 Sep 2011 09:35

The IAF’s failure to track weather patterns, inadequate
supervision and shoddy maintenance led to an accident in May 2009, rendering one of the two radars bought from Israel for Rs 676 crore unserviceable, the CAG said in a report tabled in Parliament on Thursday.

The auditor said operational costs had spiralled as the fabric used in both systems had begun decaying causing leakage of helium required to stay aloft. The Aerostat radar --- an aerial early warning system --- can detect low-flying fighters up to 250 km away.

Does this news of not working aerostats need to be in public domain?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 09 Sep 2011 10:22

another example of what works in the dry desert conditions of israel not necessarily great for monsoon weather.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby rohitvats » 09 Sep 2011 11:22

Them aerostats are a very vital piece of equipment - as they offer unparalleled view of air traffic across the IB.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 09 Sep 2011 12:09

^ what I meant was things may not work from israel as-is, needs extended study and indianization ... just as american and russian kit does (kilo battery, t90 thermal imager etc...)

we are just getting our hands on C130J, P8 , C17 etc....I expect we will hear such issues in a few yrs

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Nikhil T » 09 Sep 2011 12:18

Linking the Air Force report:

CAG Report

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sum » 09 Sep 2011 21:19

Singha wrote:another example of what works in the dry desert conditions of israel not necessarily great for monsoon weather.

Wonder what stage the DRDO aerostat is in ( which was used in AI-11 as a trial run)?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby AdityaM » 10 Sep 2011 17:53

some additional info on the aerostat http://www.firstpost.com/fwire/cag-indi ... 79369.html

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby karan_mc » 10 Sep 2011 19:08

Mausam hits turbulence with IAF

Shahid plays an air force officer in the film, and the scene that the IAF is objecting to is an action sequence involving six fighter planes, one of them commandeered by Shahid.

According to the letter that the air force sent to the producer and the Censor Board, the action sequence is not technically feasible and they would like a small change to be made to make the scene look more realistic. But producer Sheetal Talwar says he has been caught in a spot just days before the movie was to go to the Censor Board for clearance.


did it involve one AAM shot for Two Paki Faltu- solah ?? :rotfl: :rotfl: waiting for movie to be hit theaters to watch the action

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby krishnan » 10 Sep 2011 19:53

Like the final scenes from border?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Aditya G » 12 Sep 2011 01:22

Nikhil T wrote:Linking the Air Force report:

CAG Report


Which is the BVR missile in question? R-77?

On the issue of the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile acquired by the Navy, the auditor said, "One such missile was acquired by the IAF between 1999 and 2002. However, the serviceability status of the missile in evidence prior to the Navy contract of 2006, has been poor," it said.

The CAG said even after a 51 months delay in finalising the weapon package of the aircraft, the Navy "failed to adopt an integrated approach to utilise the database of IAF and ended up procuring 40 such missiles worth USD 21.88 million whose service was found unreliable by the IAF."


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kartik » 12 Sep 2011 09:33

more likely to be the Derby.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby rohitvats » 12 Sep 2011 09:37

^^^It is in fact R-77. Check this report on Livefist:

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/09/auditor-slams-navys-selection-of-r-77.html

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Aditya_V » 12 Sep 2011 10:48

Does the IN have any other choice other than the R-77 for Mig-29K? I mean what are the alternative, buy an expensive radar from Isareal, force the Russians to agree to that, intergrate it with the Mig-29K and then buy Derby? Thats sounds nearly impossible and far more expensive and would lead a huge time delay?

On this one I think the CAG is not correct, the truth is IN had no choice other than the R-77 for the MIg-29K.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby tsarkar » 12 Sep 2011 11:01

You're right Aditya.

R-77 is the only missile qualified with the MiG29. It had manufacturing unreliability issues that have since been ironed out. At the same time, Astra is being developed for Su30 to complement R-77.

Derby goes to Tejas because of 2032 pre-integration.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby chiru » 12 Sep 2011 22:24

Image

gurus which is the pylon to the left, on the wing ? it seems to be having points for multiple weapons ???

is it for the FAB-500 ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby andy B » 13 Sep 2011 02:26

^^^ iirc that's for the fab 250 munitions

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby VishalJ » 13 Sep 2011 05:19

September 11, 2011: First P8I for IN tail # IN320, basking at Renton Municipal


Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby anishns » 13 Sep 2011 05:52

^^^ beautiful :D
Look forward to getting this delivered and in service next year

Unlike the rust bucket which god knows when will arrive :roll:

Vishal Jolapara wrote:September 11, 2011: First P8I for IN tail # IN320, basking at Renton Municipal


Image


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby VinodTK » 13 Sep 2011 08:35

Troops need advanced simulators to enhance capabilities: IAF vice-chief
“The present requirement of advanced simulators for providing effective training to Indian armed forces in cost effective manner is significantly high,” Nohwar said while addressing a seminar on ‘Leveraging Simulation Technologies to Enhance Combat Potential’ organised by Confederation of Indian Industry (CII).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 13 Sep 2011 10:07

TOI - GOI is close to approving a 10% stake sale in HAL over 5 years to raise funds.

note the MAD sting on the P8I

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Lalmohan » 13 Sep 2011 11:33

is the P8 tailfin taller than on civil B737's?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Indranil » 13 Sep 2011 11:53

^^^ Yes, but not by much.

737: 12.5/12.6 m
P-8I: 12.83 m

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shukla » 13 Sep 2011 12:30

TIME TO TAKE OFF - India must take a long, hard look at its aeronautical policies

Calcutta Telegraph - by Brijesh D. Jayal - Retired air marshal of the Indian Air Force

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby jagbani » 13 Sep 2011 16:01

Bhopal: The Bhopal police on Tuesday arrested Amit Gupta in connection with the alleged suicide committed by ex Indian Air Force officer Anjali Gupta.

The development came after Group Captain Amit Gupta was questioned by police as well as a team of the IAF in connection with Anjali’s suicide.

http://www.punjabkesari.in/punjab/fulls ... 82_147937-

ranjithnath
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ranjithnath » 13 Sep 2011 16:38

Vishal Jolapara wrote:September 11, 2011: First P8I for IN tail # IN320, basking at Renton Municipal


Image

is that spear kinda thing at the rear the MAD??


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