Indian Military Aviation

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Singha
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 04 Oct 2011 21:12

video of IAF released at a press conf today. posted on livefist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axrp2GzL ... _embedded#!

around the 6:00 mark watch for footage of a AN32 climbing, and letting bombs pulled by small drogue chutes roll out of its rear ramp...followed by big impacts soon after. that is rare footage because the pokhran demo was in darkness by the time an32s did that.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby NRao » 04 Oct 2011 21:39

^^^^^

5:40

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Austin » 04 Oct 2011 22:38

Good Video , I think taking advantage of technologies they can perhaps launch big GPS guided bomb or LGB from Transport Aircraft like AN-32 , Or we can have our own Daisy Cutter/MOAB/FOAB types.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 04 Oct 2011 23:17

the MOAB is unguided iirc, its tied onto a sled the size of a car and rolled out. the pilots skill determines where it lands. we saw a kind of Moab in "avatar"
northrop grumann had a proposal in the tora-bora timeframe for a 2X sized moab which would be gps guided in some form. it was never taken up in public.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby VinodTK » 05 Oct 2011 05:37

From India Today: IAF working to expand its reach beyond homeland
Signalling a significant doctrinal shift, Indian Air Force is working to expand its reach to protect country's strategic interest much beyond its backyard stretching from the Gulf of Aden to the Malacca Strait.

Air chief marshal NAK Browne on Monday said IAF's ongoing modernisation plan has to cater to protecting strategic interest irrespective of place, space and time.

This capability will be in place by the end of 13th perspective plan in 2022, he said.

His views reflect a clear reorientation in the military thinking as till now the armed forces had projected the region between the Gulf of Aden and the Malacca Strait as their "core area of interest". But Browne said IAF and the navy should have the wherewithal to protect India's strategic interests even beyond this region.

His comments came in the wake of a recent diplomatic showdown between New Delhi and Beijing over oil exploration by an Indian company in the South China Sea.

The air chief's strategic goal rests on the ongoing large scale acquisition drive that will completely change IAF's face by the end of this decade.

From operating C-17 super heavy transporters from Kargil airstrip to placing new C-130J Hercules turbo-prop air lifters in Orissa and acquiring fifth generation fighters, the IAF is treading into the areas which had remained neglected for long.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 05 Oct 2011 09:58

may I know what exactly is the role envisaged for the C-130J in orissa (charbatia?) ... regular airlift to somewhere? or secretive special ops + RAW ops training?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby srai » 05 Oct 2011 10:38

Singha wrote:may I know what exactly is the role envisaged for the C-130J in orissa (charbatia?) ... regular airlift to somewhere? or secretive special ops + RAW ops training?


It would seem IAF is redistributing its overall force in a more equal ratio of about 50:50 ( or 60:40) ratio between Western/South-Western sectors and Eastern/Southern sectors. In the past, the distribution of forces was more like 80:20 ratio favoring the Western sectors (i.e. mostly Pakistan-centric). Now the redistribution focuses on China and other strategic interests in the IOR. This is part of the "Look East" policy.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shiv » 05 Oct 2011 10:41

Singha wrote:may I know what exactly is the role envisaged for the C-130J in orissa (charbatia?) ... regular airlift to somewhere? or secretive special ops + RAW ops training?



Servicing Andamans. I thought I read that somewhere.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby K_Rohit » 05 Oct 2011 10:50

Singha wrote:took a look at some iaf bases on google earth today
jodhpur - huge and powerful looking, bristling with large nos of Mig27 and Jags
bhuj
naliya

all the above seem to have a black and white leopard print pattern on parking aprons and some taxiways

tezpur - dec 2010 photo - 5 flankers visible parked, base needs expansion of aprons and taxiways if its to be the hub of eastern fwd defences.
chabua - a bunch of aeging looking mig21 clumped into two revetments (pic was from 2009 though)...needed work to build addl parking stands and HAS. evidence of some old but overgrown with grass revetment areas visible.

on the whole the two eastern bases looked about a generation behind the three western ones. a fact thats been commented upon by a AFM writer who said our bases tended to get better the more west he travelled on his assignment.

thats gotta change.

kalaikunda looked much better and some addl parking areas and revetments were under construction when the satellite took the pic. a good bunch of mig21 and mig27.

hashimara and bagdogra - close together and very strategic position next to sikkim. these have to expanded and become our anchor CAS bases to pound the living crap out of the PLA between sikkim and bhutan.


Check out Gwalior. First one to have a covered dispersal for the Mirages...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 05 Oct 2011 15:34

a clear case of discrimination and caste bias against us eastern downtrodden biraders.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby aniket » 05 Oct 2011 19:13

I have somewhat of a question.The BR news page shows that Jodhpur is now South Asia's largest airbase.In the event of a war won't it be the first one to be targetted and correct me if I'm wrong but even if we seen install 'n' number of defences ,how do we know for sure that it's capability won't be comprised either by missiles or by enemy aircraft.
Instead of consolidating our forces like this and presenting a single target , why not scatter these forces in a number of bases and try to make attack more difficult.
Waiting for views on this.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby pragnya » 05 Oct 2011 19:40

was this posted before??

very india specific articles on Mig 29K, MI 26, Mig 35, KA 226 etc.. . feb 2011 special issue(aero india 2011) of take off mag. sorry if it's a repost.

http://en.take-off.ru/pdf_to/to19.pdf

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby rohitvats » 05 Oct 2011 20:32

Did someone say Charbatia? Now how many knnow that it was used as a base for U2 flights out of India? And that once an U2 got stuck in the mud as it shot across the runway?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Drishyaman » 05 Oct 2011 20:54

Any news on IJT ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Boreas » 05 Oct 2011 21:03

aniket wrote:I have somewhat of a question.The BR news page shows that Jodhpur is now South Asia's largest airbase.In the event of a war won't it be the first one to be targetted and correct me if I'm wrong but even if we seen install 'n' number of defences ,how do we know for sure that it's capability won't be comprised either by missiles or by enemy aircraft.
Instead of consolidating our forces like this and presenting a single target , why not scatter these forces in a number of bases and try to make attack more difficult.
Waiting for views on this.

Well this seems to be a common concern among many members that if a base is close to border then it can be easily targeted. Let’s examine the case.

The clear disadvantage is the closer to the border u get, u come in the range of more and more enemy weapons, to an extent that they won't even have to cross the border to target the base. The other disadvantage is there is less time in terms of early warning. However there are certain advantages as well -

1. We have a pre-knowledge that this place is going to be targeted, we can plan our defences accordingly. And as the size of the base grows so will the defensive measures. Hence by common logic if a bigger size base will attract enemy to target it, heavy defensive measures will discourage them from the same.

2. A bigger base will have more concentrated defense, denser SAM coverage, also for a base closer to border there early warning systems will detect planes while they will be deep in paki territory. In case of a pre-emptive strike on India, what choice will PAF make? Strike on Jodhpur and risk losing a significant portion of its strike force, or go for easier targets and inflict higher damage with relatively less loses.

3. If it is close enough for them to target us, it is also close enough for us to target them. That holds for artillery/MBRL attack.

4. As far as missiles are concerned pakis can target most of the India, and every place is in more or less same level of danger. May be a base in south will get few more minutes in terms of early warning. But that won't make any big difference. One "may" relocate movable assets but most of immovable resources are going to be damaged anyways.

5. There are psychological factors as well. No one is fearless. Every general has to consider the response his actions are going to provoke. Say we have a big gathering at one place. And pakis bombarded everything into dusts and all of it is lost. What kind of response will it provoke? Remember pearl harbour!

Remember the cold start doctrine which said something about "not" crossing the threshold to provoke pakis to use their nukes. Pakis will most certainly have things like that in there mind as well. This concept of how much you are willing to "provoke" your enemy is of prime importance in war.

6. Lastly, Think of all the advantages IAF is going to have, if it is India who opts for a pre-emptive strike.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Sudip » 06 Oct 2011 06:40


shiv
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shiv » 06 Oct 2011 08:01

Boreas wrote:
6. Lastly, Think of all the advantages IAF is going to have, if it is India who opts for a pre-emptive strike.


Good post Boreas. Let me add just one extra point. Think of the advantages of forward air bases if there is no nuclear exchange at all.

It is difficult to "powder" bases. You can damage them but enemies who attack bases lose aircraft to defences. The aircraft and pilots cannot be replaced soon, but the runway can be repaired and aircraft flown in from deep inside where they were safe from attack in the initial stages.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby krishnan » 06 Oct 2011 08:12

Or just stuff it with loads of air defence and let them come and bang their heads there.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Surya » 06 Oct 2011 08:41

We have a pre-knowledge that this place is going to be targeted, we can plan our defences accordingly. And as the size of the base grows so will the defensive measures. Hence by common logic if a bigger size base will attract enemy to target it, heavy defensive measures will discourage them from the same.

2. A bigger base will have more concentrated defense, denser SAM coverage, also for a base closer to border there early warning systems will detect planes while they will be deep in paki territory. In case of a pre-emptive strike on India, what choice will PAF make? Strike on Jodhpur and risk losing a significant portion of its strike force, or go for easier targets and inflict higher damage with relatively less loses.



disagree on this

Sargodha and chaklala are heavily defended but you can bet we are going after them.

so in that sense important bases are going to get targetted.


Attrition is an issue all modern air forces have to deal with as pilots andaircraft are not easily replaceable

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby aniket » 06 Oct 2011 10:18

Yes exactly what I was saying even though we install heavy defenses they can get through with artillery and rockets , also why not develop a large number of equally capable bases and keep rotating the squadrons in between them and keep the enemy guessing and make their job more difficult.They can also take down our defenses using anti radiation missiles and then bombard the basses.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kersi D » 06 Oct 2011 10:57

Singha wrote:took a look at some iaf bases on google earth today
jodhpur - huge and powerful looking, bristling with large nos of Mig27 and Jags
bhuj
naliya

all the above seem to have a black and white leopard print pattern on parking aprons and some taxiways

tezpur - dec 2010 photo - 5 flankers visible parked, base needs expansion of aprons and taxiways if its to be the hub of eastern fwd defences.
chabua - a bunch of aeging looking mig21 clumped into two revetments (pic was from 2009 though)...needed work to build addl parking stands and HAS. evidence of some old but overgrown with grass revetment areas visible.

on the whole the two eastern bases looked about a generation behind the three western ones. a fact thats been commented upon by a AFM writer who said our bases tended to get better the more west he travelled on his assignment.

thats gotta change.

kalaikunda looked much better and some addl parking areas and revetments were under construction when the satellite took the pic. a good bunch of mig21 and mig27.

hashimara and bagdogra - close together and very strategic position next to sikkim. these have to expanded and become our anchor CAS bases to pound the living crap out of the PLA between sikkim and bhutan.


Singha,

I have also spent a lot of time and energy on GE. There is lot more information available on GE if one looks very carefully.
There are other bases which are bigger and wide spread. The eastern AFBs do not seem to have any SAM launchers, at least I could not locate them.

Its best we do not talk about them.

Jodhpur AFB is VERY important for some other reasons too.

Not withstanding hat GE is open media and any Abdul, Chou and Hari can see it, we should not discuss these issues on BRF.

K

PS Do contact me on k e r s i k d o t i w a l l a AT r e d i f f m a i l DOT com

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Boreas » 06 Oct 2011 11:04

Surya wrote:disagree on this

Sargodha and chaklala are heavily defended but you can bet we are going after them.

so in that sense important bases are going to get targetted.


Attrition is an issue all modern air forces have to deal with as pilots andaircraft are not easily replaceable

yes, if there is a war there will be attacks, and there will be loses to both sides.

I just examined the scenario that whether or not a forward base is under any greater danger than other bases.


-----
On a different note, as far as Musaf or chaklala are considered the only air defence "any" of the PAF base got is the interceptors located on that base defending that air space. They have air defence systems but they don't possess much threat. Basically there air defence system comprises of -

1. RBS-70 shoulder/tripod fired missiles range < 8Km
2. Spada 2000 with detection range of 60Km and missile range of < 25km
3. Crotale air defence system (which is mostly obsolete now) range <16Km with a flight ceiling of 6-9000m

Despite several level of talks they don't have any HQ9/FD-2000. They are primarily relying on the air to air missiles of their fighters. I personally categorise there air defence mechanism as weak.

They are naked. Hiding behind there nukes.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Juggi G » 07 Oct 2011 03:42

Image
Image
Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 07 Oct 2011 09:24

pls note the refueling probe and wing fuel tanks on the C130 parked on apron.

so far they have not put a optronic ball under the nose , unlike some of the socom mc130j

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Raja Bose » 07 Oct 2011 09:35

rohitvats wrote:Did someone say Charbatia? Now how many knnow that it was used as a base for U2 flights out of India? And that once an U2 got stuck in the mud as it shot across the runway?


It was "supposed" to be used as a base for U2 flights against chipanda (with Taiwanese pilots). However, after the 1st U2 had a rough landing, the plan got canned. My grandfather was very closely involved with Charbatia when the base was coming up and also later on during '71 war.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Juggi G » 07 Oct 2011 09:46

Image
Image
Image
Image


Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ranjithnath » 07 Oct 2011 12:10

^^what is that thing just above the canopy??

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Gurneesh » 07 Oct 2011 12:12

^^^^ periscope mirror

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby chackojoseph » 07 Oct 2011 12:17


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Vipul » 07 Oct 2011 18:26

IAF's defence network set for December boost with IACCS.

By the end of this year, India will take a significant step towards plugging some gaping holes in its existing air surveillance and defence network.

That is when the first five nodes of IACCS (integrated air command and control system) will become operational in the western and southwestern sectors.

IAF is now also moving the case for government approval for the next five integrated air command and control system nodes, which will be even bigger and complex to cover the rest of the country and island territories, say officials.

Though the integrated air command and control system project was mooted by IAF in 1998, it's only now that the critical requirement to have a fully-automated network to integrate the wide array of military radars with each other as well as with civilian radars has gained momentum.

"The aim is to detect and tackle enemy and terror aerial threats in real-time by putting in place a composite and enhanced surveillance capability," said an official.

With the country's air defence coverage being far from impregnable, especially over central and peninsular India, which can be exploited by aircraft with hostile intent, several plans are currently in motion.

After acquiring three Israeli Phalcon AWACS (airborne warning and control system) aircraft for $1.1 billion, for instance, IAF's ongoing radar acquisitions include 19 LLTRs (low-level transportable radars), four MPRs (medium-power radars), six mountain radars and 30 indigenous medium-range Rohini radars, among others.

The automated IACCS will enable quick transfer of data from ground-based radars as well as AWACS and aerostat radars to one central place. With multi-sensor tracking and data fusion ensuring "a filtered and composite air situation picture" at the central hub, the timely detection and neutralization of threats will be possible.

Progress, of course, has also been made towards integrating the five Airports Authority of India radars at Delhi, Mumbai, Ahmedabad, Chennai and Kolkata into IAF's air defence network.

"IACCS permits conduct of operations from one central place, facilitating as it does realtime transportation of images, data and voice from satellites, aircraft and ground stations,"' said another officer.

"We are moving towards a seamless 'sensor-toshooter loop' by the integration of all groundbased and airborne sensors with command and control centres, which in turn can direct air defence and other weapons," he added.

The digital information grid AFNET (air force network) to replace the old communication network set-up using the tropo-scatter technology of the 1950s, incidentally, became operational last year. IACCS will ride the AFNET backbone.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Drishyaman » 07 Oct 2011 20:06

The hump in the 2 seater looks ok to me, is the hump is less prominent in 2 seaters or have I got used to it ?

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby aniket » 07 Oct 2011 20:20

I also think it's less prominent,either that or my eyes are playing games

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Gurneesh » 07 Oct 2011 20:51

That's because it doesnot have dorsal cft as it is a trainer.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby chackojoseph » 07 Oct 2011 21:45


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Aditya_V » 07 Oct 2011 23:10

IAF MiG-21 crashes in Rajasthan, pilot ejects safely

As usual some worthies make their uninformed comments. I wish I could every paise out their assets to fund new purchases.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby srai » 08 Oct 2011 00:11

ALH touches 20,000 feet and Cheetal 23,000 - New Heights for Indian Helicopters

...
At the recent Army Aviations: Looking Forward seminar for instance, it was pointed out that Pakistan has twice the number of helicopters than India although our requirement is much larger due to the size and varying topography of the country.
...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 08 Oct 2011 01:38

interesting comparison. :mrgreen:

compare our army (the lesser helo operating force of Indian military) to their army (the major helo operating arm of pakis)

these are the numbers
IA : 220 (including 40 dhruv)
IAF : 287 + (about half medium to heavy weight)
both expanding rapidly.

PA : ~ 200 (40 AH-1 cobra, about 40-50 Mi-17 and puma and the rest utility helos like UH-1 variants and alouette II and III)
PAF : 10-15

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby bhavani » 08 Oct 2011 04:09

Rahul Sir,

Recently i was counting the number of choppers in PA and IA. PA operates quite a bit number of Mi-17, SA-330 Puma, Bell 412 and UH-1. The total is around 400

It also fielded the Mi-17 upgraded version before us. They were purchased by Unkle and given to Pakis in flowers.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 08 Oct 2011 04:18

saarjee, if your source is wiki it's not reliable. I did a bit of searching to come to this figures. we can take this to paki thread if you want to continue.

prithvi

Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby prithvi » 08 Oct 2011 08:30

Live Streaming of IAF Day Parade... awesome stream quality here in US

http://webcast.gov.in/iafday/


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