Indian Military Aviation

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 09 Oct 2011 23:47

anjan wrote:Is he then really saying he's allowing inadequately trained pilots up in the air?

I am not sure why you have hastily arrived at this conclusion. Its not justified by the known facts. You must know that pilots are tested rigorously at every stage of their selection / training / progression.

Let the inquiry find out the cause of the accident.

If the inquiry discovers that the training received by the pilot was not "fit for purpose" (e.g. the pilot had not been taught how to handle a particular situation), then that will indeed mean that the pilot's training was inadequate, and corrective action will no doubt be taken. Its equally possible (without knowing the detailed facts) that poor training was not the cause of the accident.

Its not about apportioning blame, its about finding out the cause of the accident, and taking actions to prevent accidents from occuring again.

From my own profession I know that there is always room for improving training, making it better and better. Sometimes mistakes still happen.

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 10 Oct 2011 02:52

eklavya wrote:
anjan wrote:Is he then really saying he's allowing inadequately trained pilots up in the air?
I am not sure why you have hastily arrived at this conclusion. Its not justified by the known facts. You must know that pilots are tested rigorously at every stage of their selection / training / progression.

I haven't arrived at any conclusion. I'm making no judgement of pilot skills or capability. I'm merely extrapolating from what the Chief of Air Staff said

"Unfortunately except for one case, the other cases point towards inexperience of young pilots who were not been able to handle the landing and approach (of the aircraft)," -CAS

Training compensates for experiance or rather training is meant to keep your luck from running out while you're gathering experiance. On what basis is he sending his pilots up if he belives they're not fully capable of handling the aircraft? It's pathetic and demoralizing.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Oct 2011 05:17

neerajb wrote:
shiv wrote:That was the time when the cost of each aircraft was painted on its nose.
I distinctly remember "147 lakh" painted on the nose of a MiG-21 in one of the movies. Could be Vijeta but not sure.

Cheers....

Ah thanks. That was the figure. I recall a 4 and a 7 and "lakhs", but could not recall the actual figure on the nose of a MiG 21 I saw up close. I sat in the cockpit but did not understand a thing except where the trigger for the gun was. I asked about the cost painted on the nose. It was to make everyone - ground maintenance staff included aware of exactly what they were dealing with.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Oct 2011 05:26

anjan wrote: I haven't arrived at any conclusion.
<snip>
Training compensates for experiance or rather training is meant to keep your luck from running out while you're gathering experiance. On what basis is he sending his pilots up if he belives they're not fully capable of handling the aircraft? It's pathetic and demoralizing.

But you are reaching the conclusion that "he sending his pilots up if he believes they're not fully capable of handling the aircraft? " I can see nothing in his words that suggests that conclusion.

I think that is because you do not have enough data. It is pathetic and demoralizing to me to hear conclusions being reached with inadequate data by the media and enthusiasts such as yourself. I believe that you have either not had a chance to familiarize yourself with how "experience" is gained from the material available or you have not looked at or understood the articles that have been posted in the flight safety thread. In particular, may I ask if you read the articles I have posted in the last 2-3 days about how accidents occur and the meaning of "inexperience"?

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 10 Oct 2011 05:42

shiv wrote:
atreya wrote:The documentary on Mig 21s is superb, but why do they show Hunters in the video-clip of 1971 if they are talking about Mig 21?
There is very little publicly available archival video footage from 1971. This video has shown almost all that is available while talking about those wars.

Actually there is plenty of footage should NDTV have decided to spend some money or do some extra research. no not just 'stock footage' but actual war footage including the actual governor house attack.. but hey why take the effort if you can get away by sticking some hunter and stock footage .. no one (outside of BR) will notice it ..

After taking the effort of getting Air Marshals Malik and S R Deshpande on camera for interviews, I think the opportunity was wasted away by not asking the right questions ..

That said, I did like the bits where they explain the HMS (never saw that before).. But I guess I am taking from a BR Jingo PoV.. not the aam Junta viewpoint who will certainly rank this as superb..

Sorry fellas, the documuentary is good. But I will reserve the words superb / great etc for better stuff. (..like the Gnat 50 years film, or the longewala film.. not much aeroplane /aerial footage in it, but still an excellently researched and made documentary)..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Oct 2011 05:57

Jagan wrote: not just 'stock footage' but actual war footage including the actual governor house attack

I vaguely recall having seen that - so it is actually floating out there somewhere. I think the MoD should really start making some footage public. All that stuff will be on celluloid and that degenerates over time. I recently scanned old negatives I found at home and discovered that film taken in the 1940s was brittle and fragmented into a powder and was very difficult or even impossible to straighten up. I found at least two amazing pictures of some minor historical value. That air force stuff needs digitization urgently.

Suresh had told me how the full screen projection of his gun camera of Sabre over Talhar actually showed shells hitting the cockpit before the plane hit the ground.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 10 Oct 2011 11:31

IAF will induct its C-17 airlifters from 2013

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 10 Oct 2011 15:22

@Everyone - please to share the link for the footage of Dacca raid on governor house by Mig-21. Thanks.

caesar · Post by **caesar** » 10 Oct 2011 15:38

this is the link to the IAF attack http://youtu.be/Pl3ODOcE9Mk

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Oct 2011 18:25

Jagan wrote: But I will reserve the words superb / great etc for better stuff. (..like the Gnat 50 years film, or the longewala film.. not much aeroplane /aerial footage in it, but still an excellently researched and made documentary)..

Jagan garu the Longewala film is like History channel. The MiG 21 video is like Discovery fanfoy. I would love to see more of both.

Where can I see the Gnat 50 picchar?

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 10 Oct 2011 21:02

shiv wrote: I sat in the cockpit but did not understand a thing except where the trigger for the gun was. I asked about the cost painted on the nose. It was to make everyone - ground maintenance staff included aware of exactly what they were dealing with.

Did you press the starter ? By mistake of course

Did you press the ejection seat to see that it works properly ?

K

PS In lighter vein of course

srai · Post by **srai** » 10 Oct 2011 23:15

IAF modernising at fast pace to meet challenges

...

Air Chief Marshal Browne said the IAF would reach its sanctioned strength of 42 squadrons by 2022 — it now has 34 squadrons — ...

...

My guess would be the following force structure by 2022:

Code: Select all

Year: 2022

# Squadrons            Aircraft Type
-------------------------------------------------
      2                    PAK-FA/FGFA
     15                    Su-30 MKI
      7                    MMRCA
      7                    LCA (Mk.1+Mk.2)
      3                    MiG-29UPG
      3                    Mirage-2000UPG
      5                    Jaguar UPG
--------------------------------------------------
[b]Total in 2022: 42 squadrons[/b]

If we project to 2035, the force structure could be something like this:

Code: Select all

Year: 2035

# Squadrons            Aircraft Type
-------------------------------------------------
      5                    AMCA
     15                    PAK-FA/FGFA
     15                    Su-30 MKI
     10                    MMRCA
     10                    LCA (Mk.1+Mk.2+Mk.3)
--------------------------------------------------
[b]Total in 2035: 55 squadrons[/b]

After 2035, 35 squadrons of Su-30MKI, MMRCA and LCA will be gradually replaced by UCAV, AMCA, and FGFA.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Oct 2011 05:35

Kersi D wrote:
shiv wrote: I sat in the cockpit but did not understand a thing except where the trigger for the gun was. I asked about the cost painted on the nose. It was to make everyone - ground maintenance staff included aware of exactly what they were dealing with.
Did you press the starter ? By mistake of course

Did you press the ejection seat to see that it works properly ?

K

PS In lighter vein of course

Kersi - none of the switches and buttons were working. It was MiG 21 no? It was Indian no?

From any other country it would have worked. Have you seen the 2011 crash statistics for China? Zero crashes. In fact zero for 2010 and 2009 also. Show me the report of one Chinese crash in 2011 and I will pay you 1000 PKR.

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 11 Oct 2011 07:49

shiv wrote: But you are reaching the conclusion that "he sending his pilots up if he believes they're not fully capable of handling the aircraft? " I can see nothing in his words that suggests that conclusion.

He's talking about young pilots unable to handle approach and landing being responsible for all but one of the recent accidents. I'm sure it was a startling leap from there to my statement.

I think that is because you do not have enough data. It is pathetic and demoralizing to me to hear conclusions being reached with inadequate data by the media and enthusiasts such as yourself. I believe that you have either not had a chance to familiarize yourself with how "experience" is gained from the material available or you have not looked at or understood the articles that have been posted in the flight safety thread.

You're welcome to believe what you like. Free country and all that.

Flying is a dangerous business. No doubt about it. Ultimately however there is a moral culpability there. That is what command comes down to. He is not the owner of a private taxi fleet to wash his hands off.

In particular, may I ask if you read the articles I have posted in the last 2-3 days about how accidents occur and the meaning of "inexperience"?

If it's the article by Wing Cdr. Suresh or that medical journal maybe you should read it again? Unless of course landing is considered a combat maneuver.

Seems to me your defence comes down to H&D. At least going by your previous post. There is the plane. A fine aircraft but old I've been told by the people who fly it. There are the pilots. A fine body of men on the whole. You can make considered criticism of the men we put in command above them without it being disparaging of either. I truly couldn't care less what the statistics say or what they are for other countries. I'm not wringing my hands on how we compare to the PLAAF or the PAF or whoever else. Those statistics tend to be people I know. Personally if I'm asking a 24 year old to go out there and fight for me, I'd like to believe we do so with the conviction that we've given them the best chance we can afford to. If "except for one case.. inexperience of young pilots.. approach and landing" is the cause on a single type and it can be hand waved then something has gone wrong terribly. Somewhere someone has messed up along the line and someone needs to be held accountable.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Oct 2011 08:11

anjan wrote: Personally if I'm asking a 24 year old to go out there and fight for me, I'd like to believe we do so with the conviction that we've given them the best chance we can afford to.

Fine. But flying and fighting are dangerous business. Both are done by the Air Force and they are in the business. If you are not going to listen to their views and be prepared to accept them as you choose to do, there are plenty of amateur solutions that we can give to the air force ranging from the ridiculous to the sensible.

For example, fighter flying is basically more dangerous than what most of us do. Why send your 24 year old at all? If 24 year olds are going, and you did not send them, why not listen to what the people who sent them have to say? How come you feel you are more competent to reach judgement on this and that you do not accept what the Air Force says? I do realise that you made an emotional post and are defending your own echandee robustly, but if you have no solutions why not ask what the Air Force thinks? You want "something else" and you don't know what. That is emotion. I think you are wrong. I am more inclined to accept what the Air Force has to say rather than an emotional rant. That difference in viewpoint will persist.

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 11 Oct 2011 08:50

shiv wrote:
anjan wrote: Personally if I'm asking a 24 year old to go out there and fight for me, I'd like to believe we do so with the conviction that we've given them the best chance we can afford to.
Fine. But flying and fighting are dangerous business. Both are done by the Air Force and they are in the business. If you are not going to listen to their views and be prepared to accept them as you choose to do, there are plenty of amateur solutions that we can give to the air force ranging from the ridiculous to the sensible.

For example, fighter flying is basically more dangerous than what most of us do. Why send your 24 year old at all? If 24 year olds are going, and you did not send them, why not listen to what the people who sent them have to say? How come you feel you are more competent to reach judgement on this and that you do not accept what the Air Force says? I do realise that you made an emotional post and are defending your own echandee robustly, but if you have no solutions why not ask what the Air Force thinks? You want "something else" and you don't know what. That is emotion. I think you are wrong. I am more inclined to accept what the Air Force has to say rather than an emotional rant. That difference in viewpoint will persist.

I'm not suggesting solutions. Not my territory and not my competence. As for listening to what "they" have to say, who's "they"? I speak to plenty of pilots. I'm not under any obligation to listen in rapt attention to what the CAS has to say and not question it. In this case my problem is with what he has to say itself. I'm questioning his moral obligation as the CAS.

I'm certainly not denying that I'm emotionally invested in this. I'm angry. That said I'm sure there is absolutey nothing emotional about the robust H&D defence and the further vehement reponse. Not that it wouldn't be understandable since this discussion board is overflowing with threads; each one with posters falling over each other in praise of people doing their jobs, and remarking on how we should all listen to 'them' since 'they' are so competant. I'm sure my post stands out. I look forward to reading your posts on the strategy boards on just how we closely we should listen to Shree. S.M. Krishna expound on the Portugese foreign policy. I shall remember to bring this up the next time some acquisition debate on the armed forces comes up and the incredibly rare poster on belives they know better.

You're right about the difference of viewpoints. Thank you for the articles.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 11 Oct 2011 09:02

shiv wrote: I asked about the cost painted on the nose. It was to make everyone - ground maintenance staff included aware of exactly what they were dealing with.

IIRC that was your cousin's doing? BTW if you notice carefully now they have the cost painted even on some INSAS rifles in the IA!

sum · Post by **sum** » 11 Oct 2011 10:23

Teeth being sharpened against the Panda:
Night-landing facility in Himalayas

With no sign of threat perception from northern and western borders being abated, the armed forces are putting in place an efficient system of night- landing of aircraft close to the border—many of them are in the Himalayas—for quick troop and logistics mobilisation.

The “night landing capability for airfields in the northern and western theatres” was one of the main areas of discussions at the Army commanders’ conference that began here on Monday.

Beginning of the winter will witness more night-landing by the Indian Air Force’s medium-lift troop carrier IL-76.

“Due to low temperatures at night, the carrying capacity of IL-76 would increase, thus helping in winter stocking as also for operational logistic build up,” said an officer. Addressing top commanders, Army Chief V K Singh asked them to remain vigilant on the northern and western borders.

Singh also discussed proposals for accretion of forces within a short span of time and improving border infrastructure, which includes uplifting the conditions of habitats in high-altitude areas.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Oct 2011 10:35

Raja Bose wrote:
shiv wrote: I asked about the cost painted on the nose. It was to make everyone - ground maintenance staff included aware of exactly what they were dealing with.
IIRC that was your cousin's doing? BTW if you notice carefully now they have the cost painted even on some INSAS rifles in the IA!

No I dont think he was senior enough to do that. IIRC Jagan knows the name of the man whose idea that was.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 11 Oct 2011 11:10

shiv wrote:
Kersi D wrote:
Did you press the starter ? By mistake of course

Did you press the ejection seat to see that it works properly ?

K

PS In lighter vein of course
Kersi - none of the switches and buttons were working. It was MiG 21 no? It was Indian no?

From any other country it would have worked. Have you seen the 2011 crash statistics for China? Zero crashes. In fact zero for 2010 and 2009 also. Show me the report of one Chinese crash in 2011 and I will pay you 1000 PKR.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 11 Oct 2011 13:12

Was going over the gallery at BR, Marut was a very TFTA looking aircraft of it's time - maybe beacuse of the German connection.

Can anyone provide a link to it's service record with the IAF?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Oct 2011 13:17

a simple search would have sufficed.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... arut1.html
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... Marut.html

shiv ji, pliss to check PM.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Oct 2011 13:19

Rahul M wrote:shiv ji, pliss to check PM.

I will take revenge on RahulM and make his very private message very public so he will become boori najar waala tera mooh kaala!

Rahul M wrote:just thought you might be interested. xinhua admits to crashes when it happens in populated places and locals take pics. otherwise it remains as rumour.
I will pick up the 1000 PKRs next time I am in bangalore, I won't accept the equivalent in any other currency !

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showth ... 587&page=2

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Oct 2011 13:39

anjan wrote: I'm not suggesting solutions. Not my territory and not my competence. As for listening to what "they" have to say, who's "they"? I speak to plenty of pilots. I'm not under any obligation to listen in rapt attention to what the CAS has to say and not question it.

Point taken, but I will reiterate what I have said before on this very subject and this very attitude, for neither is new. And my response is not new either.

A man living in a structurally weak building is under no obligation to consult a structural engineer or a civil engineer. He could ask for inputs from a doctor, but chances are he is not doing the right thing. A man who vomits blood is under no obligation to listen to a doctor. he could consult a structural engineer or the Chief of Air Staff about vomiting blood. But once again the information he can get is likely to be untrustworthy.

Ultimately you have to ask the experts in the field. But one is free to reject their judgement. It is, in my view the height of insincerity if a man chooses to trust a doctor for a physical disease when one is personally suffering but chooses to reject what the Air Force says about accidents when doing that is no skin off one's own nose in a pompous pretence of being "Oh so worried about young pilots". When it comes to one's own skin only the real expert will suffice. When it comes to crashes, the word of the Air Force is not good enough. That is rich. And pretentious.

In the middle asking why we should constantly praise and admire our Air Force and why not question them, the information that is invariably missed is that for many years now, the accident rate we have with MiG 21 is as good as it is likely to get. It is NOT going to get better than this except by random variation - like 2009 (I think). This is as good as it gets and emotional rants are not going to get it any better. 40% of our Air Force and perhaps 80% of our air defence cover is MiG 21 based. Unless those MiG 21s are phased out completely the accident rate is not going to get any better by ranting or by blaming the CAS or anyone. This information is not difficult to figure out. Only one has to be willing to listen to someone other than oneself.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Oct 2011 13:51

time for me to

only reason I sent it by PM was to prevent a discussion on PLAAF in this thread.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Oct 2011 13:54

Rahul M wrote:time for me to
only reason I sent it by PM was to prevent a discussion on PLAAF in this thread.

LOL! Fair enough. But I guess i was wrong enough on this count so let it be known that at least some PLAAF crashes are made public. This is a topic that is thrashed out time and again on so many threads

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 11 Oct 2011 17:49

shiv wrote:
Jagan wrote: But I will reserve the words superb / great etc for better stuff. (..like the Gnat 50 years film, or the longewala film.. not much aeroplane /aerial footage in it, but still an excellently researched and made documentary)..
Jagan garu the Longewala film is like History channel. The MiG 21 video is like Discovery fanfoy. I would love to see more of both.

True true.. the Gnat 50 Years Picchar - Kaps may have a copy. I got my copy from Sree I think

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Oct 2011 18:33

OK its public now anyway. Baldev Singh is dead, Suicide.
i knew him well and he was a great support to the family when Suresh died. Why did you do that Baldev?

http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/192100/ban ... -dead.html

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Oct 2011 18:41

and he was just recently promoted !

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 11 Oct 2011 19:07

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 11 Oct 2011 19:09

He was also a Test Pilot for IJT. I think he was the same person flying the IJT and was shown in a discovery channel program (Discover India program), am I correct ?
Please, ignore my comment, if I am wrong.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Oct 2011 19:39

Drishyaman wrote:He was also a Test Pilot for IJT. I think he was the same person flying the IJT and was shown in a discovery channel program (Discover India program), am I correct ?
Please, ignore my comment, if I am wrong.

In fact he let me fly the IJT simulator in Aero India this year and stopped it from crashing after I did a loop.

Anshul · Post by **Anshul** » 11 Oct 2011 23:32

Sad that Baldy had to go like this.He was a very very humble guy with no airs about him.Many a Test Pilot would have behaved differently.I remember meeting him in 2005 at Shiv's Bungalow.Shiv infact took him and philip specially to meet his mother.I had also requested him and Rakesh Sharma to grace the BR Meet in 2009 at Bangalore.He said he would love to come and meet us all but needed to be present at Yelahanka for some HAL press meet.BR will miss a distinguished member.Rest in Peace Baldy......Salute!

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 12 Oct 2011 00:02

This is really sad news to hear. Peace for his atma and for his family.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Oct 2011 00:46

Surya, Rahul M - you have mail.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Oct 2011 02:41

Did not have access to a computer since the news first hit. Sad then, ........shocked now .........

RIP.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Oct 2011 05:03

In happier times:

Baldev and Rakesh Sharma in Aero India (maybe around 2003 or thereabouts)

Baldev (at extreme right) at a BR meet.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 12 Oct 2011 05:42

shiv wrote:OK its public now anyway. Baldev Singh is dead, Suicide.
i knew him well and he was a great support to the family when Suresh died. Why did you do that Baldev?

http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/192100/ban ... -dead.html

That's shocking news. I really wonder what could have caused this.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Oct 2011 05:48

Raja Bose wrote: That's shocking news. I really wonder what could have caused this.

Today's ToI that I saw 2 minutes ago speculates that his recent elevation to a non-flying desk job may have upset him. He lived only to fly.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 12 Oct 2011 06:05

I was searching ToIlet online but they don't have any news there.

I don't want to indulge in conspiracy theories but there seems to be more here than meets the eye in this incident. He may have lived to fly but he was also a very experienced test pilot who would be cool under the most severest of pressures hence, a little hard to believe he committed suicide just on the basis of that.