Indian Military Aviation

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Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Cain Marko » 21 Nov 2011 11:40

Question for experts: can a Jag be turned into a super hornetish a/c? On a smaller scale of course.

We know that it excels in the low alt strike role but with the addition of the Honeywell F125, and the fact that it is a bit lighter than the Mirage 2000, if I am not mistaken, it actually has a similar TWR to the M2k with a v.similar internal fuel capacity. Being optimized as a striker, I am sure it is draggier, wingsweep is rather gradual, and the wingloading is also somewhat poor. But still; not too awful.

Comparing it to a Shornet, it has a poorer TWR, and no lifting body design, but the Shornet has less wing sweep, and a poorer wingloading. Service ceilings and top speeds are similar as well. If we do a very simplistic comparison:

@ 50% internal fuel, + 4 X AAMs, combat radius, twr etc:

Shornet: 14500 + 600kg + 3500kg + pilot weights ~ 19000kg, Thrust: 2X10000kgf, TWR: 1.05, combat radius ~ 600km
M2k: 7600 + 400 + 1650kg + 100kg ~ 9750kg, Thrust: 9500 kgf, TWR: 0.97, combat radius ~ 450km
Jag: 7000 + 600 + 1650 + 100 ~ 9350, Thrust: 8950 kgf, TWR: 0.95, combat radius ~ 450km

It sort of struggles to match up with 4gen fighters, but does rather well vs. previous gen birds such as the MiG-21 or the F4 (poorer TWR and wingloading). In fact, its layout seems very similar to the F4, which btw, is still in service.

Up close, I don't think it will ever turn and burn with the likes of a hornet or M2k, but it might level the odds with a nice HMS like the dash series. With a halfway decent radar/bvr missile, it might even do some point defence duties. Will a BVR missile be a worthy investment for the Jag?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 21 Nov 2011 11:53

bvr missiles only make sense if a powerful radar is there and the plane retains the ability to merge and fight in wvr (Jags airframe and design means a Mig29 type plane can turn well within its best efforts). that way sending a couple of upg M2K with a pack of 4-6 Jags on strike mission (with asraam) sounds more like a workable plan to me.

the M2Ks or phalcons will detect hostile inbounds and launch BVR, forcing the enemy to engage or evade....either way the Jags can hold course or escape behind the protection of M2Ks who will either fight or escape at Mach2 if need be later. Jags can still fire off asraams if directly confronted using 'off the shoulder' shots and keep right on going.

the engine change will improve the Jags weakness in take off runs and payload in hot weather and high alt , not to speak of high+hot. other goodies that come like fadec might improve its safety and fuel economy. the 'appearance' of 100+ updated Jags now fully capable of operating in Tibet altitude is like IAF's strike power doubling itself vs PRC - not a small thing.

for M2K / MRCA / MKI its different in that certain ac of same sqdn rigged with 8-10 AAMs can accompany seamlessly to provide the extra muscle to supplement the 2-4 aams each bomber might cart along

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Bala Vignesh » 21 Nov 2011 12:03

Just spotted the IJT flying over the hebbal lake. It was being followed by a Kiran.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Nikhil T » 21 Nov 2011 12:36


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby suryag » 21 Nov 2011 12:40

Singhaji what you are asking for would fit very well with the scenario that Cyclic blogger came up with where Mi-35 make mincemeat of an armoured column heading towards a post in jaisalmer sector IIRC

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby chiragAS » 21 Nov 2011 13:11

Honeywell may be overhauling IAF’s Jaguars with new more powerful engines


IMO Upgraded Adour would have been good. Having a totally new Engine would mean additional testing (of the aircraft)
and new maintainence procedures/ new logistics issues.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby wig » 21 Nov 2011 22:03

IAF to use laser cladding to repair engine blades
The Indian Air Force has developed a laser-based process that would enable repair of turbine blades in aircraft engines that would otherwise have to be discarded. Called laser cladding, this process would save crores in foreign exchange.

Blades used in aircraft engine turbines, measuring a few inches in height and width, are made of titanium alloys and cost about Rs 1 lakh each. The repair of a damaged or “rubbed-out” blade through laser cladding would cost just Rs 1,500- Rs 2,000. The process uses a laser to generate a local weld pool on the surface of the component and a specially designed powder-feed nozzle then introduces a powder composed of a similar material into the molten metal. Once cooled, the resulting layer possesses very similar mechanical properties to those of the original component.

“This is for the first time that this technology has been developed in the country. Laser and nanotechnology are new developments being used in engine reclamation process at less than a third cost,” Air Cmde Suresh Singh, Air Officer Commanding No.3 Base Repair Depot, where the process has been developed, said. “We are also going in a big way to re-engineer aero-engine parts to cater to our requirements for spares. This does not imply merely copying the existing parts, but involves design and development from scratch,” he added.

An aircraft engine, on an average, comprises about 7,000 components and so far about 200 parts meant for helicopters have been indigenised. The IAF has been focusing on indigenisation when availability of aero-spares became a serious issue in the aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet Union. All its base repair depots and technical establishments have been since engaged actively in this field and the IAF has also been approaching the industry for local manufacture. Another new innovation by 3 BRD is development of a device to check spurious fire warning in helicopters.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20111121/nation.htm#3

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby suryag » 21 Nov 2011 22:24

I guess our press should get out of this mode of "saving crores of foreign exchange" it was relevant in the early 90s but now we have around 300 bil in forex better they focus on how the development helps local industry and show signs of becoming a press of an emerging economy

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby pragnya » 22 Nov 2011 08:52

“The difference between the Dornier 228 New Generation and the old version which is being produced in India under license is the glass cockpit. And you can see here the five bladed propeller and the engine – the Honeywell (Garrett) TPE 331 engine – dash 10. Original is the dash 5 engine, this is the dash 10 engine.”

RUAG says the glass cockpit has four large displays, which include two primary flight displays and two multi-functional displays. In the autopilot mode, the aircraft is also certified for single-pilot IFR (Instrument Flight Rules) flights.

The propeller has a ‘wooden core and a surface consisting of multiple fiber composite layers’. Ruag expects this to allow the engine to start quicker and the narrow diameter blades to reduce vibration and noise. The company also says the aircraft’s fuel consumption of 5.41 liters is good for 100 passenger kilometers.


Leinauer says his company has offered these upgrades to HAL. “We offer them (HAL) the upgrade to the achieved standard – yes. It can be done at any time. They can fit the new cockpit, they can fit the new avionics, they can fit the propellers. We are talking to them and this is something that definitely we want to do,” he says.

He says the aircraft is more flexible due to the avionics upgrade. “If you have better avionics you can fly different missions – you have autopilot you have flight management system you have TCAS (Traffic Collision Avoidance System) you have TAWS (Terrain Awareness Systems) – so that gives you flexibility and also, as I said, certain performance related advantages over the old version,” adds Leinauer.


Image

Dornier 228NG Specifications

The aircraft also includes features like:

Air Data Computer
Attitude Heading Reference System
Radar Altimeter
Weather radar (Optional)
VHF Radios
HF Radio (Optional)
Intercom
Emergency Locator Transmitter
VOR/ILS, DME, ADF
Global Positioning System (GPS)
Flight Management System (FMS)
3-Axis Autopilot (Optional)
Engine Indicating and Crew Alerting System (EICAS)
Airborne Collision Avoidance System (ACAS)
Terrain Awareness System (TAWS) (Optional)

Image

Dornier 228NG special mission configuration

Side Looking Airborne Radar (SLAR)
360 degree Surveillance Radar
Forward Looking Infra Red (FLIR)
Satellite Communication
Operator Stations
Search Light
Real Time Data Downlink
Enlarged Fuel Tanks
Stretchers
Medical Evacuations
Air Openable Roller Door
IR/UV Sensor Equipment


RUAG offers HAL upgraded Dornier

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Vipul » 23 Nov 2011 19:55

Indian Air Force processing case for buying 6 air-to-air refullers.

On its likely induction schedule, he said, The Defence Procurement Procedure envisages a timeline of about two and half years from the date of issue of request for proposal to conclusion of contract in such multi-vendor cases. The delivery schedule is expected to be between 36 and 51 months from the date of signing the contract.


Total 81 Months. :x

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby krishnan » 23 Nov 2011 20:02

where does it say "81"?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Bala Vignesh » 23 Nov 2011 20:17

^^Vipulji,
Its not 81 months for total delivery. The first delivery will take place 3 years after contract signature and the last delivery will take place before 4.5 years. The total time for delivery will be 1.5 years, delays unaccounted.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Vipul » 23 Nov 2011 21:38

Bala pl drop the "Ji" :)
Yes you are right. 30 Months for the ROI/ROP/Contract and then 36 months for the first delivery.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sum » 24 Nov 2011 09:08

Time for more :(( :(( :((
HAL may not meet SU delivery deadline

The Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) may not be able to deliver the remaining 81 Su-30 MKI fighter planes to Indian Air Force (IAF) within the contract period that ends in 2014-15.

Five years ago, the IAF entered into an agreement with the HAL for the supply of 180 Su-30 MKI by 2014-15. “Out of the total 180 aircraft, 99 aircraft have been delivered till 2010-11,” Defence Minister A K Antony informed the Rajya Sabha on Wednesday.

But going by the information shared by Antony, HAL does not seem to be in a position to fulfill its contracted commitment, as its assembly line can produce only 16 aircraft every year.

This means in the remaining four yers, HAL can at best produce 64 aircraft and may require at least another year to deliver the 17 others.

As per the initial contract between IAF and HAL approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security in December 2000, the Su-30 project was to commence from 2004-05 and be completed by 2017-18.

In June 2005, Air Headquarters requested HAL to explore the feasibility of compressing the delivery programme by three years. HAL submitted a proposal envisaging compressed delivery of 140 aircraft within 2014-15, which was approved by the CCS in 2006 .

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sum » 24 Nov 2011 09:12

Bala Vignesh wrote:^^Vipulji,
Its not 81 months for total delivery. The first delivery will take place 3 years after contract signature and the last delivery will take place before 4.5 years. The total time for delivery will be 1.5 years, delays unaccounted.

But the big Q is when will this contract signing happen?

AFAIK, we have not even re-floated the tender after the previous A-330 fiasco.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby kmkraoind » 24 Nov 2011 11:12

What happens to old Adour Mk811 engines of Jaguar that were being replaced by Honeywell engines. Old Adour engine count may be around 150-200 considering even the spare engines. What will be the effective way to use them. Can we use them with some modifications as marine engines to power small patrol boats.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Lalmohan » 24 Nov 2011 13:50

^^^ or high powered UAV's or cheap one-way soosai-drones...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Bala Vignesh » 24 Nov 2011 16:11

Or just use them to build Jingo Fighter 1 as a small bomb truck..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 24 Nov 2011 16:23

jag engines are way overkill for drones. if they auction them as scrap I would like to buy one to keep in drawing room...people keep stuffed bear heads, stag antlers and tiger skins...we can keep engines.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby merlin » 24 Nov 2011 16:52

HALE UAVs would be a good use - also we make most components of that old Adour engine, isn't it?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby merlin » 29 Nov 2011 09:56

A good overview of the modernization that IAF is undertaking until 2020 - http://www.indiandefencereview.com/mili ... uture.html

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Nikhil T » 29 Nov 2011 10:49

India to order 20 more Hawk AJTs

NEW DELHI: For a country that took two decades to ink the first contract for British Hawk advanced jet trainers (AJTs) after losing hundreds of fighters and pilots in crashes, India seems to be going the whole hog for the AJTs.

After first ordering 66 twin-seat Hawks in March, 2004, and then another 57 in July, 2010, at a combined overall project cost running almost into Rs 16,000 crore, India is going to order another 20 AJTs.

The defence acquisitions council, chaired by defence minister A K Antony, last Friday cleared the IAF proposal for the 20 new Hawks at a cost of around Rs 3,600 crore, say sources.

The overall Hawk project, with 24 supplied directly by BAE Systems and 122 to be licenced manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) in India, is likely to cost well over Rs 20,000 crore by the time its completed by 2016-17, add sources.

While the first 123 Hawks will help train rookie fighter pilots the intricacies of advanced combat flying, the latest 20 are meant for IAF's famous Surya Kiran aerobatics team, which has been forced to stop its breathtaking manoevres due to a crippling shortage of training aircraft. The AJT saga has been marked by government apathy, poor long-term planning, flawed contracts and delayed delivery schedules. A majority of new fighter pilots still have to make do with old and unsuitable MiG-21 trainers, three decades after IAF first projected the requirement for AJTs for ``transitional training'' between sub-sonic aircraft and the `highly-unforgiving' MiG-21s.

If all the 146 Hawks had been ordered at one go, they would have proved much cheaper. Moreover, they would have saved many young lives if they were inducted much earlier. As much as 39% of the 1,010 crashes recorded by IAF since 1970 have been attributed to ``human error (aircrew), often a result of inadequate training. ``Technical defects'', caused by ageing machines and shoddy maintenance, is the other equally big killer.

About 55 Hawks have been inducted so far, much behind schedule. These include the first 24 directly delivered by BAE Systems to the Bidar airbase in Karnataka, and 31 subsequently assembled by HAL. The delay is ``due to receipt of defective components, jigs and fixtures from the foreign manufacturer (BAE Systems), on which liquidated damages were levied'', Antony himself had told Parliament earlier.

But with HAL promising to step up production to 13-14 Hawks a year, it's being hoped the first 123 AJTs - 17 of them are earmarked for Navy - are inducted by 2015-2016. ``The new 20 AJTs can follow thereafter,'' said an official.


Wonder why the order wasn't clubbed with the second order?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 29 Nov 2011 10:53

probably because decision to re-equip the surya kirans was taken later.

if anything we need even more hawks. for the IAF to expand, the pipeline of young pilots must be fat..we need to pump out more graduates in each batch to cope with the expanding IAF...100s of helicopters, 10s of transport a/c, 100s of fighters are coming within the next decade and older pilots retiring.

more pilots and ground crew also mean you can maintain high sortie rates in crisis.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby saps » 29 Nov 2011 15:11

Guess, the reason it wasnt clubbed with earlier one was because there was strong current of having our national aerobatic in indigenous ac may be IJT. Or that could have been HAL's promise to keep their research going.

But alas with the failure of spin test of IJT the horizon itself has shifted by at least couple of months hence IAF can forget suryakirans flying IJT thus i guess decision for hawks.

Anyways better later than never since HAL could have kept promising, without delivering anytime soon.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ramana » 29 Nov 2011 23:50

Enough whining over action not taken.

Can some one put the info on a chart format? That would tell the story better than the long winded report.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 30 Nov 2011 02:03

Thats pretty good. Those are a lot of trainers. I presume the whole Al-55 thing has put IJT out of comission... Do we know whats happening there ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ramana » 30 Nov 2011 02:17

Singha wrote:jag engines are way overkill for drones. if they auction them as scrap I would like to buy one to keep in drawing room...people keep stuffed bear heads, stag antlers and tiger skins...we can keep engines.


Do you remember the old Mig 21 engine in RECW workshop!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ramana » 30 Nov 2011 02:26

What is the heaviest dumb bomb that can be carried by the ground attack planes?

And what does IAF have?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby nachiket » 30 Nov 2011 03:13

Cybaru wrote:Thats pretty good. Those are a lot of trainers. I presume the whole Al-55 thing has put IJT out of comission... Do we know whats happening there ?

What AL-55 thing?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ramana » 30 Nov 2011 03:16

The engine AL-55 was a fiasco.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby VinayG » 30 Nov 2011 03:17

nachiket sir i think he meant the NPO Saturn AL-55I engine that powers the IJT

ramana sir Do you mean in REC WARANGAL

Gurus any info on this project HAL HJT 39, aka CAT (Combat Air Trainer)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby srai » 30 Nov 2011 06:39

VinayG wrote:... any info on this project HAL HJT 39, aka CAT (Combat Air Trainer)


It's dead!

With 143 Hawk AJTs (66+57+20) being inducted into the IAF/IN, there is no need for a similar type of CAT, indigenous or not. Besides HAL has not been able to deliver on the IJT, which after a quick start has fizzled to a virtual halt (it seems). IJT would have been flying in IAF/IN colors if HAL had decided to stick to the original engines for the Mk.1 variant rather than switch to a "still-in-development" AL-55 engines.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shiv » 30 Nov 2011 07:06

Cybaru wrote:Thats pretty good. Those are a lot of trainers. I presume the whole Al-55 thing has put IJT out of comission... Do we know whats happening there ?


I have some new information although not directly about IJT, but the information impacts ALL Indian test aircraft. I was talking to *** ** ***, and he commented that in Australia the air certification authority of Oz does not interfere or ask questions about prototype aircraft testing. That testing is done (presumably) at the risk of the entity that is doing the testing. So if an accident occurs during testing the company can move on quickly.

In India the news is different. Licence raj (my interpretation of the situation) extends right into prototype aircraft testing. That means that no aircraft can be flown without approval from the DGCA (Directorat General Civil Aviation) The DGCA has to approve the ground testing, ground runs etc before it gives permission for the first flight. Now if an accident occurs after this, the incident is taken right back into the purview of the DGCA even if it is a prototype that has just been certified to make its test flights.

In fact that is exactly what happened to the Saras. The investigation was completed, cause determined, Germans/Russians/Martians consulted and the next prototype building started, but DGCA is sitting on it. In fact (and this is yet to be confirmed or denied) the DCGA can demand repeating of all ground tests even if all was well making it both prolonged and costly. In fact I was told by someone on the golf course about a year ago that the Saras was awaiting a DGCA decision. The people who tell me this are usually retird DRDO types who I meet reasonably regularly and the attitude was like a person who has sent an application in triplicate to Delhi and is waiting for papers to move and can do nothing about it. This is an experience that a lot of industrialists and businessmen have in India. That is why the likes of Niira Radia have employment :roll: But what incentive is there for HAL to bribe DGCA? And naturally when one government dept cannot bribe another the file will not move at all.

The two conversations I had suddenly connected up in my mind and I can now surmise what is happening to the IJT. The first two acidenst were minor ones on runways and were not "crashes" as such and the DGCA was probably not involved. The last accident where 2 pilots bailed out has now probably landed at DGCA doorstep and the papers will not move for 4 years ensuring that the IAF will not get its basic trainer.

I just wonder (and this is normal for India) if there is some babu oor minister or file pusher at DGCA who an be bribed by a foreign seller of trainer aircraft to ensure that the IJT file does not move at all. It would be ironic if we sit here and curse HAL while it is the DGCA screwing things up...

Shining India?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby VinayG » 30 Nov 2011 07:07

thank you Srai

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 30 Nov 2011 08:20

>> IJT would have been flying in IAF/IN colors if HAL had decided to stick to the original engines for the Mk.1
>> variant rather than switch to a "still-in-development" AL-55 engines

so what is wrong with the AL55 engine? does it not meet the spec or Rus is unable to certify and deliver it in volume?

I was always worried why purely on cost reason we abandoned the working Larzac and ran to the AL55....somehow engines always seem to be the achilles heel of every project we do.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby aharam » 30 Nov 2011 08:26

ramana wrote:
Singha wrote:jag engines are way overkill for drones. if they auction them as scrap I would like to buy one to keep in drawing room...people keep stuffed bear heads, stag antlers and tiger skins...we can keep engines.


Do you remember the old Mig 21 engine in RECW workshop!


My first post! Changing status from long term BRF lurker. Were you from RECW, if so which years? I flew 21 Bises, but don't recall any engines at WREC during my time.

Cheerio
aharam

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby srai » 30 Nov 2011 08:53

Singha wrote:>> IJT would have been flying in IAF/IN colors if HAL had decided to stick to the original engines for the Mk.1
>> variant rather than switch to a "still-in-development" AL-55 engines

so what is wrong with the AL55 engine? does it not meet the spec or Rus is unable to certify and deliver it in volume?

I was always worried why purely on cost reason we abandoned the working Larzac and ran to the AL55....somehow engines always seem to be the achilles heel of every project we do.


The problem with AL55 was that it was promised to be designed/developed and delivered within a year or two to HAL for integration on IJT. This was a very risky decision taken by HAL when the program was well under way at that time with Larzac engines. HAL's plan was to replace the Lazarc engines on the two prototype in middle of R&D with the yet to be developed and certified AL55 engines. The result was a delay to the whole IJT program by around 5 years.

IMO, what HAL should have probably done to mitigate risks was to build another two IJT prototypes for the new AL55 engines while the two existing prototypes with Larzac engines should have been left to continue on their flight test program to be certified as Mk.1 variant.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby nachiket » 30 Nov 2011 09:50

The switch to the AL-55 caused a delay for sure, but I haven't heard of any further problems with it after the two prototypes were flown with it. We saw one of them doing the display during AI-2011.

I presume the whole Al-55 thing has put IJT out of comission...


This is not true AFAIK. The IJT had other structural problems which were apparently fixed. Don't know the reason for the last crash. Anyways, I don't think the IJT is out of commission. Only delayed.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vic » 30 Nov 2011 10:16

HAL has been touting IJT as the story of its great competence in Screw Driver technology while LCA is failure of ADA long drawn indigenous effort. It seems that IJT is also falling way way behind schedule inspite of 3-4 crashes.

As far as AL-55 is considered it might have been a good idea. We can leverage manufacturing set up for Al-31. Also around that time Saturn also sold around 100 cruise missile engines to India. I wonder if there was some quid pro quo?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ramana » 30 Nov 2011 10:23

In my days the principal of REC Warangal was Gp Capt(retd) MJ Kriplani who was an engineer officer from IAF. He persuaded the IAF to give a Mig 21 engine from a crashed plane. This was in display in the workshop or the engine lab for a long long time. BTW the workshop Supdt was also a retired Army Officer who kept the workshop floor spotless clean even with unruly and klutzy students. One great annual event was the firing up of the cast iron melting cupola for the fourth year mech students sand molding class.

aharam that will give you when I was at RECW!

Tell us about your flying experiences.

Thanks, ramana


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