Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2010

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Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2010

Postby SSridhar » 20 Oct 2010 09:19

Link to last page of previous TSP Thread: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 03, 2010


The following links are background articles on Pakistan.

UNDERSTANDING PAKISTAN:


Jinnah's Pakistan: An Interview with MA Jinnah, and how the Pakistan of Yesterday is the Pakistan of Today
http://iref.homestead.com/Messiah.html

http://hsgac.senate.gov/public/_files/012809Tellis.pdf

The above is the testimony of Ashley Tellis on Jan 28th 2009, to the US Senate Homeland Security Committee on LeT's global role. It is a good articulation of LeT's past and future trends.

Know Your Pakistan
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... /Shiv.html

The Monkey Trap: A synopsis of Indo-Pak relations
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... ayyam.html

PAKISTAN-FAILED STATE: an ebook that owes its origin and existence to BRF.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/EBOOKS/pfs.pdf

Whither Pakistan ? Growing Instability and Implications for India: an IDSA e-Book, July 2010
http://idsa.in/book/WhitherPakistan

A landmark article that demolishes myths built up about Pakistan
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers8/paper710.html

Pakistani Role in Terrorism Against the U.S.A
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... yanan.html

Pakistani Education, or how Pakistan became what it is: Curricula and textbooks in Pakistan
http://www.sdpi.org/archive/nayyar_report.htm

Making Enemies, Creating Conflict: Pakistan's Crises of State and Society. A book written by Pakistanis on Pakistan.
http://members.tripod.com/~no_nukes_sa/Contents.html

Should Pakistan Be Broken Up? by Gul Agha
http://pakistan70.tripod.com/gul.html

Alden Pyle in Pakistan, Part I
http://pundita.blogspot.com/2009/12/ald ... art-1.html

Prof. Walter Russell Mead, "Pakistan's Failed National Strategy"
http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/ ... -strategy/

"Pakistan Is", by Barry Bearak in New York Times Magazine, December 7, 2003.
Brings out succinctly various facets of Pakistani perfidy, obsession, fundamentalism etc.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... nted=print

PAKISTAN & TERRORISM:

The Ideologies of South Asian Jihadi Groups (Laskar-e-Taiba)
By Hussein Haqqani (journalist and Pak ambassador to US)
http://www.futureofmuslimworld.com/rese ... detail.asp

Pakistani sponsoring of Terrorism
http://www.geocities.com/charcha_2000/
http://pak-terror.freeservers.com/Terro ... y_Tool.htm

Terror Map: The Pakistani Hand
http://sify.com/news/specials/terrormap/?vsv=TopHP1

Ethnic cleansing in Pakistan - a statistical analysis
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... idhar.html

A chronicle of genocide by the Pakistan army
http://www.gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html

Documentary video evidence of Pakistani genocide in Bangladesh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x-94U1bVUQ
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EBKlIUbpc ... re=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sMg9Ly9nK0g
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xwwPbkyZV ... re=related

Inside Jihad - How Pakistan sponsors terrorists in India
http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/ ... r_sb1.html

Pakistan's Role in the Kashmir Insurgency - Op-ed by Rand's Peter Chalk
http://www.rand.org/hot/op-eds/090101JIR.html

Alden Pyle in Pakistan, Part II
http://pundita.blogspot.com/2009/12/ald ... -upon.html

BEYOND MADRASAS: ASSESSING THE LINKS BETWEEN EDUCATION AND MILITANCY IN PAKISTAN
http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/ ... nthrop.pdf

PAKISTAN TODAY:

On the Frontier of Apocalypse: Christopher Hitchens seminal article on Pakistan today
http://newsstuff.0catch.com/article5.htm

http://meaindia.nic.in/bestoftheweb/2002/10/14bow2.htm

A Slender Reed in Pakistan - Editorial in the Christian Science Monitor
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1229/p08s03-comv.html

Seymour Hersh Interview
http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_hersh.html

Pakistan's Nuclear Crimes (Wash. Post editorial)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dy ... 2-2004Feb4

http://www.indiadefence.com/LOA07Aug04.htm

The Battle for Pakistan: Militancy and Conflict in Pakistan's Tribal Regions
http://counterterrorism.newamerica.net/ ... r_pakistan

BOOK REVIEW Fulcrum of Evil: ISI-CIA-Al Qaeda Nexus
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpap ... r1844.html

Article from Vinni Capelli - Foreign Policy Research Institute:
Containing Pakistan: Engaging the Raja-Mandala in South-Central Asia
http://www.fpri.org/orbis/5101/cappelli ... kistan.pdf

The videos are from this documentary: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/taliban/

A bomb at all cost By Ahmad Faruqui - a candid admission of the wars that Pakistan started against India.

Popular support for suicide bombings in pakistan.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 008_pg12_1
Survey by university students in karachi say 50% of respondents support suicide bombings in kashmir.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OWsmJIwe9Q4
"Descent into Chaos"
UC Berkeley Conversations with History, host Harry Kreisler talking with Pakistani Journalist Ahmed Rashid. 59 minutes 120 MB. It sums up Pakistan and lays bare all Pakistan's terrorist support and proliferation activities. **Note - he wants the US to solve Pakistan's Kashmir problem.

Pakistan on the brink: Video Link (must download)


MISCELLANEOUS

Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto telling Bangladeshis to "Go to Hell": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dsxfyxa ... re=related

IDSA's weekly summary of Pak Urdu Press:

http://www.idsa.in/pup
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Five installment series by Kapil Komireddi published in Frum Forum

Part I. Nov 16, 2009. “Pakistan In Crisis”.

Part II. Nov 18. 2009. “Pakistan: Origins of A Failed State”.

Part III. Nov 18, 2009. “Pakistan: It Could Not Succeed Unless India Failed”.

Part IV. Dec 06, 2009. “Pakistan: A Mecca for Radical Islam”.

Part V. Dec. 07, 2009. “Pakistan’s Army: Building a Nation for Jihad

A perceptive blog on Pakistan: http://pak-watch.blogspot.com/

Declassified documents from US National Archives on Pakistan:

http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/pakistan/pakistan.htm
_______________________________________________

Admission of state sponsored terrorism by Pakistani authorities


see this Der Spigel Interview where Musharraf admits to that.

On 7th Nov in TimesNow Channel, Tasneem Noorani, a former Secretary of the Pakistani Interior Ministry, openly said that.

Kiyani called the Haqqanis as strategic assets.

In Dec. 2008, President Zardari himself admitted to ISI helping LeT. He said,"The links between the Inter-Services Intelligence Agency and the LeT were developed in the old days when dictators used to run the country. After the 9/11 terror attacks in the US, things have changed to a great extent"

In an address to bureaucrats in July 2009, President Zardari said: "Militants and extremists were deliberately created and nurtured as a policy to achieve some short-term tactical objectives. Let us be truthful to ourselves and make a candid admission of the realities. The terrorists of today were the heroes of yesteryears until 9/11 occurred and they began to haunt us as well"

In Nov. 2009, Prime Minister Gilani admitted to the support for terrorism by Musharraf as "running with the hares and hunting with the hounds".

When Bush warned the Pakistanis in August 2008 of their support to Al Qaeda, Afrasiab Khattak, President of Awami National Party (ANP) said this: "The question is why it has taken the Americans so long to see what the ISI is doing. We’ve been telling them for years but they wouldn’t buy it.". See here.

In an interview to the BBC as far back as on Feb. 13, 1994, Benazir Bhutto admitted how she handed over to Rajiv Gandhi the complete list of Sikh activists colluding with the ISI in terrorism in the Punjab. Later, Nawaz Sharif described this interview as a faux pas.

Apart from these, of course, numerous Pakistani commentators, analysts, and editors have openly admitted to terror as a state policy.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby SSridhar » 20 Oct 2010 09:20

Taking Rangudu's post from the Headley thread:
Rangudu wrote:Ramana
. . . If a secret Obama visit to TSP is on the cards, maybe there is some deal being negotiated detrimental to Indian interests.

Absolutely. I doubt if the US would go so far as a civilian nuclear deal. They may choose to let the Chinese do that. But, they may offer massive conventional weapons, platforms, early warning systems etc. especially as the Pakistani have demanded that Kerry-Lugar's economic assistance must now be complemented by a suitable military assistance. This is the one of the major points of the current strategic talks.

The Pakistanis have made it absolutely clear that the PA is completely India-centric. They have also repeatedly demonstrated that even if they are destroyed from within, they will not let go of Kashmir. The Americans have not been able to change their mindset. The Americans also believe that a rapprochement between India and Pakistan is essential for their exit and Obama is keen on this. Kashmir for UNSC ideas were therefore floated. The Obama administration has also taken extraordinary care not to push the Pakistanis on the PA nexus with Headley & LeT. The Pakistanis know that for all purposes, the American administration treats Af-Pak as Af-Pak-Ind as originally proposed. So, they are putting pressure on the Americans to milk them maximally. The Americans have long concluded that they can pander to the Pakistanis because India, even if annoyed, has either no leverage or is unwilling to push hard on the Americans.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Juggi G » 20 Oct 2010 09:36

If Pakistan Splinters...
If Pakistan Splinters...
2010-10-20
Bharat Verma

The Chinese will suffer a major setback if dysfunctional Pakistan splinters in the near future.

Many Malaysian Muslims will hasten to tell you that their country should not be compared with Pakistan. When introducing themselves, migrant Muslims in West Asia (Middle East) take pains to assert that they are Muslims from India and not Pakistan.

Serious contradictions within Pakistan have pushed it into the pit of despair, from where it is almost impossible to climb out. It is reported that many young Pakistanis out of sheer frustration are repudiating Islam and converting to other religions.

Perhaps, the majority of Pakistan's dominant community, the Punjabi Sunni Muslims living in their isolated world of self-destruction, do not realize the damage they are doing to Islam. Perhaps, they are blind to the fact that Pakistan appears to be hurtling towards self-destruction.

Beijing treats Pakistan as an extension of its war machine and a surrogate colony. The likely breakup of Pakistan in the near future will stall expanding Chinese footprints.

An impaired or divided Pakistan is a cause of deep worry for Beijing, since Islamabad's capability to tie-down India by launching terrorist attacks will also suffer.

If Pakistan splinters, there will be enormous gains for India. Pakistan-occupied Kashmir will return to the Indian fold and peace will prevail.

This is the singular reason for the Chinese to move their troops into Gilgit Baltistan, the northern areas of PoK. The strategy is two-fold.

First, to occupy or gain influence over as much occupied Indian Territory as possible, in case Pakistan breaks up.

Second, to keep up the pressure on Indian borders since Pakistan is no position to do the same given its present internal disarray.

Further, China does not want India to be emboldened to mount an attack on Pakistan, which is already gasping for oxygen.

With the break-up of Pakistan, ISI activities like export of fake Indian currency and infiltration of terrorists through Nepal will cease. Anti-India rabble rousing by ISI inspired elements in Bangladesh will no longer be possible.

The Union of India's consolidation and integration as a nation will get a new fillip, as the distraction created by Pakistan in the name of religion is eliminated.

India then will be able to concentrate on the principal threat posed by China.

A Fragmented Pakistan will lessen the heavy financial burden placed on India's economy with drastic reduction in the security apparatus. This will enable young India to make rapid economic strides that can outpace ageing China in a short span of time.

Similarly, colossal gains accrue to the West if Pakistan splinters.

The West, led by America, is losing the plot in Afghanistan because the problem is the Pakistan Army and its Irregular Forces led by General Kayani. Washington was forced to admit this worst kept secret recently, when its supply routes to Afghanistan were snapped by GHQ Rawalpindi and NATO convoys carrying fuel to Afghanistan were conveniently torched by the ISI controlled Ghost Army of Jihad with impunity.

American attempts to unhook Pakistan from China will continue to fail despite dangling the carrot of modern weapons and technology, as Islamabad's strategic dependency on Beijing is now irreversible.

The 'real estate' of Pakistan was created so that the West could monitor and manipulate the former Soviet Union, China and India.

However, if Pakistan falls apart, Sind, which has very strong democratic yearning, is certain to chart its own independent path, but in consonance with Indian value system.

Independent Baluchistan with its rich resources will be definitely against the Chinese, who are exploiting its resources in conjunction with Islamabad. Denial of Gwadar port will preclude Chinese navy from the warm waters of Indian Ocean and direct access to West Asia.

Afghanistan will gradually witness unhindered growth of democracy; the spoilers Pakistan Army and the ISI would have disappeared.

Therefore, democracies will find many friendly places to operate from and access the resources of Central Asia to the mutual benefit of all players.

The biggest gain for the democracies will be that China's expanding authoritarian influence will be sharply curtailed. Also the Jihad fervor being orchestrated in this part of the world by the Punjabi Sunnis will die a natural death due to fatigue and lack of resources.

The spread of two authoritarian streams, Chinese communism and the Islamic fundamentalism, in combination or otherwise, threaten the survival of democracies in Asia.

If Pakistan splinters, one of the threats will be substantially neutralised.

This in turn will make Central Asia, where Pakistan aims to attain strategic depth with the help of Islamic fundamentalists, a safer place

If Pakistan splinters, Xinjiang in China will face renewed instability, and the Chinese flank in occupied Tibet will come under severe pressure.

With independent Sind and Baluchistan, the Chinese supply lines from Gwadar would also get blocked. This will force China to revert to 'peaceful rise' instead of laying claim on territory or islands of other nations.

The power of the Shias will increase, thus creating a balance with some of the Sunni sects that are mainly responsible for terrorist acts worldwide. Two successive British Prime Ministers have stated that Pakistan accounts for 75 percent of all such acts.

If Pakistan splinters, this percentage will drop dramatically.

Most remarks on Pakistan are often prefaced by: "Just like you Indians cannot live with Pakistan..."

This premise is false. An average Indian can live with Pakistan, as long as Islamabad does not interfere in internal affairs or connive against India. It is irrelevant whether India talks, trades or maintains diplomatic relationship with Pakistan; the growth of the Indian economy or the growing status of India is not even remotely connected with failure or success of Islamabad.

The 'Pakistan Story' failed because of the inherent flaws in the values professed and not because of Kashmir.

The 'Indian Story' shows success because of its belief in secular democratic values.

The truth, therefore, is that 'Pakistan cannot live with India.' The converse is absolutely preposterous.

If Pakistan splinters, it will hit the biggest stakeholder and benefactor China.

In order to safeguard its strategic interests, Beijing will make every endeavour to prevent the breakup of Pakistan, even to the extent of military intervention in support of the Pakistan Army.

If Pakistan splinters, forces led by US President Barak Obama will win. On the contrary, if China is successful in its intervention, authoritarian regimes will hold sway in Asia.

Who wins the great game in Asia, will depend on the finesse with which the cards are dealt by the contending sides.

Bharat Verma, a former Cavalry Officer is Editor, Indian Defence Review.
He frequently appears on television as a commentator, and is the author of Fault Lines and The Indian Armed Forces

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby SSridhar » 20 Oct 2010 10:33

Johann wrote:Jinnah's and Liaqat Ali's death led directly to the fragmentation of Pakistan's civilian political class, and the PA was happy to step in to that power vacuum.

No doubt. Even in Jinnah's time, his power started to wane. Liaquat Ali was never a strong leader and did not particularly enjoy mass support within Pakistan, especially as a mohajir. The disintegration of the Muslim League started during the life time of Jinnah as the two powerful landlords of the Punjab, Chief Minister Nawab Mamdot and his minister Mumtaz Daultana, began to develop irreconcilable differences which even a Jinnah could not resolve. Later, the powerless Liaquat Ali Khan, recommended the dismissal of the Mamdot ministry leading eventually to the splitting of the Muslim League in the most important province of the Punjab in July 1950 with Mamdot forming his own Jinnah Awami Muslim League.

No wonder Ayub Khan banned Muslim League in c. 1958. Thus, the party that created Pakistan was banned by a military dictator within a decade after the nation's founding. Thus a political party that had been rigged up solely for very narrow personal interests of a few elites unravelled quickly and fell by the wayside. But, it was not surprising as ML itself was an opportunistic party that was hijacked by Jinnah for egoistical reasons. The party was therefore not grass-roots oriented especially in the areas that became of Pakistan and was dependent on the landlords, sardars, khans, pirs, vaderas and maliks. The party was bereft of any vision for Pakistan and lacked organization and programmes that would benefit the masses.

The interesting thing is that the PA abolished parliamentary democracy under Ayub Khan, and has periodically suspended it since.

PA was empowered by Jinnah, again. He completely delegated power to the PA in 1947 to grab J&K because he did not want to appear ordering that aggression. The unstable political situation after Liaquat Ali's death (a death which was engineered by the by powerful members of the Establishment such as Ghulam Mohammed, Chaudhry Mohammed Ali, who was a close friend of Maulana Mawdudi, and Iskander Mirza.) was exploited by the Deobandi Mullahs who were waiting for an opportunity to Islamize the population. Amidst this political opportunism, religious fanaticism and rising food shortages, the only organ of the State that seemed to provide stability and security was the Army. The Army was asked to impose Martial Law under Gen. Azam Khan and manage the situation. Once having tasted political power, the Army never let go of it.

Thus, by the 80s, the Pakistani Army arrogated to itself three functions namely, defence of the borders, political governance and defence of Islam.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Pranav » 20 Oct 2010 10:46

Juggi G wrote:If Pakistan Splinters...

Bharat Verma


Good article ... but the following snippet has not been adequately justified / fleshed out:
If Pakistan splinters, Xinjiang in China will face renewed instability, and the Chinese flank in occupied Tibet will come under severe pressure.


IMHO, India needs to use trade leverage to encourage Chinese to acquiesce in natural demise of TSP. The bigger question is how far western powers will go in backing TSP.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Pranav » 20 Oct 2010 10:58

Get Tough on Pakistan By ZALMAY KHALILZAD
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/20/opini ... ilzad.html

Finally, the United States should facilitate a major diplomatic effort focused on stabilizing South Asia. This must involve efforts to improve relations between India and Pakistan.


They are still interested in preserving and backing TSP.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby jrjrao » 20 Oct 2010 10:59

Pretty unbelievable.

Musharraf is right now in Texas, seeking the warmth and comfort of the musharraf of that very same old pretty Ms. babe, the one of Charlie Wilson fame. Just one pathetic Paki gernail following in the footsteps of another...

Charlie Wilson's War Part 2?
Pakistan's Musharraf is launching a long-shot, long-distance bid to be president again

Former Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf hopes to retake the leadership of his country, and he is actively campaigning — in Texas.

He is scheduled to meet today with former President George H.W. Bush and Joanne King Herring, a longtime advocate for development in Afghanistan and Pakistan who was played by actress Julia Roberts in the film Charlie Wilson's War.

Musharraf said he believes connecting with Pakistanis in America will give him enough backing — financially and politically — to carry him to victory in Pakistan.

"I do need financial support, and I would ask the American Pakistani diaspora to support me ... because I see darkness in Pakistan," Musharraf said. "Because I don't see a political party or a leader in Pakistan to be able to tackle the problems that Pakistan is facing."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/met ... 54827.html

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby KLNMurthy » 20 Oct 2010 11:13

http://twitter.com/SalmaanTaseer/status/27802826767

One click'll set all you jingos straight.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby SSridhar » 20 Oct 2010 13:42

KLNMurthy wrote:http://twitter.com/SalmaanTaseer/status/27802826767

One click'll set all you jingos straight.

:lol:
. . . Islamic moderate democratic nuclear success story

  • Pakistan is not Islamic (ask the Taliban or the Islamist parties about it)
  • It cannot be moderate(then why are there five dozen terrorist/sectarian organizations with millions of followers). See the Terror Map if there is any doubt.
  • It is not democratic. The PM himself considers the Army as an equal, if not a bigger, partner. He has nowadays added judiciary to the power-sharing list.
  • It is not nuclear either. The assets are not its own and not always under its complete control
  • By no stretch of excessive imagination, can Pakistan be called a success story. Even its most charitable friends would not call it so.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby SSridhar » 20 Oct 2010 13:53

Take by Ms. Lisa Curtis on the latest Headley saga
Commenting on the U.S.' slow response to the information, Lisa Curtis, Senior Research Fellow at The Heritage Foundation, a Washington think tank, told The Hindu, “Many officials in the U.S. government responsible for Pakistan policy often failed in the past to understand the close links between Pakistan-based terrorist groups targeting India and those that target the West.

Ms. Curtis said that rather than viewing the Lashkar-e-Taiba, the terror outfit Headley was said to have been trained with, on par with the Al-Qaeda, U.S. officials tended to see it only through an Indo-Pakistani lens.

However with regard to the U.S.-Pakistan relationship, Ms. Curtis cautioned that legal issues could arise in the event that direct ISI links were made to the Mumbai attacks, which also killed six U.S. citizens.

She said, “From a policy perspective, there could be major blowback on the Obama administration if it is perceived as stifling information related to a terrorist incident in which U.S. citizens were murdered.”

There were also questions being raised whether the U.S. authorities had failed to follow up on terrorism leads associated with Headley “because it could potentially implicate Pakistan's intelligence service, with whom the Central Intelligence Agency is closely working,” Ms. Curtis, formerly with the CIA, said.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Samay » 20 Oct 2010 15:13

If Pakistan Splinters...
2010-10-20
Bharat Verma

Very straightforward article ...
Sometimes nature itself takes care of what is unnatural,which is a cancer, that hinders growth of 1.5 bn people in the subcontinent , ..
Pakistan and its pakjabi army are doomed , they are on edge , thing is who will push them , Dhimmis , US, civil wars, ? who .

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Lalmohan » 20 Oct 2010 15:55

so what lisa curtis is saying is that if we probe to far, we will establish negligence on the part of the administration and that will lead to law suits in the US, and then there will be all kinds of unhelpful political developments in the US. expect a lot more stonewalling
coverup city here we come

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Cosmo_R » 20 Oct 2010 16:18

SSridhar wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:http://twitter.com/SalmaanTaseer/status/27802826767

One click'll set all you jingos straight.

:lol:
. . . Islamic moderate democratic nuclear success story

  • Pakistan is not Islamic (ask the Taliban or the Islamist parties about it)
  • It cannot be moderate(then why are there five dozen terrorist/sectarian organizations with millions of followers). See the Terror Map if there is any doubt.
  • It is not democratic. The PM himself considers the Army as an equal, if not a bigger, partner. He has nowadays added judiciary to the power-sharing list.
  • It is not nuclear either. The assets are not its own and not always under its complete control
  • By no stretch of excessive imagination, can Pakistan be called a success story. Even its most charitable friends would call it so.


This is the August 2009 Pew Research Report on public opinion and attitudes in Pakiland. An eye opener for me:

http://pewglobal.org/files/pdf/265.pdf

Look at the bottom of page 3 in particular

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby CRamS » 20 Oct 2010 16:55

SSridhar wrote:The Americans have long concluded that they can pander to the Pakistanis because India, even if annoyed, has either no leverage or is unwilling to push hard on the Americans.


This is the cold hard truth, and nothing but the truth. I've long ago asked experts here who keep saying India-US relations will go South if US does this or that, as to what it is India can do? Not much as you say above, and thats the sad story. Except of course, a hard core national resolve to withstand some short-term losses, loss of H&D, but strike a hard bargian for example, by making it difficult for US in AfPak, just as TSP has.

Right now, IMO, US not going even further in its military & monetary support of TSPA and its terror apparatus to the detriment of India, is more out of "largese" than anything else, except probably to prevent TSPA from gaining too much to threaten western interests. For example, US looses nothing, in fact everything to gain, if it were to summon the UN security council which is its screw driver as we all know, and demand that India implement those bogus resolutions on Kashmir. Can you imagine how much TSPA will gubo to such a move? And matter of fact, not only that, many of India's 5th columnists will also support such a move. Thats why many of the Pentagon/CIA and other thugs in the US govt, who cannot see anything beyond US interests, are seething with anger against India because India has so far not Guboed to TSP as much as US would have liked. Hence this constant, almost ingrained Pavlovian "we must improve relations between India & TSP" colonial concoction by one & all.

To get a measure of how much India depends on US for its economic growth, get this sorry spectacle. I am at an energy-related summit somewhere in US. And a lot of the IT honchos, Wipro, Infosys etc have dispatched their business dev folks looking for outsourcing contracts. Being a hard core technology show, these guys are just groping in the dark, handing out business cards to whomever they can find or get any attention from. One guy told me that he is very nervous because his boss has sent him to so many such summits, and he has not been able to line up any outsourcing contracts. And he told me the same story with all the others.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby CRamS » 20 Oct 2010 17:05

Another poisonous, evil notion must be disscented and hammered home by India. And that is LET was confined only to Kashmir & India, but now it seems to be allied with so called Al Quaida and has gone "global" and threatens western interests. What the %^&$ is this distinction between attacking India and going "global"? Attacking India is not "global" enough? Why can't Indian govt, Indian media pounce on this hypocritical narrative and rub it?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Lalmohan » 20 Oct 2010 17:11

^^^ it was done before, but was brushed aside, since we were SDRE crypto communists onlee
now that they need our money, its changing...

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Pranav » 20 Oct 2010 17:34

x-post from Headley thread:

Patni wrote:Obama's boat to India springs leaks
By M K Bhadrakumar



excerpt:
Meanwhile, NATO cross-border operations on Pakistani territory infuriate the Pakistani military. In short, as the New York Times commented: "General Petraeus seems determined to show progress on achieving American goals in Afghanistan - both military and political - ahead of a December review of the war effort ordered by Obama."

The Pakistani military establishment is furious with Petraeus. A highly placed Pakistani general has been quoted as threatening: "Petraeus has to lower his goalposts if he wishes to see some semblance of peace in Afghanistan." The Pakistani military is hoping Obama will ultimately rein in Petraeus and sue for peace.

But, Washington is circling its wagons. In a hard-hitting opinion-piece on Tuesday titled "Petraeus rewrites the playbook in Afghanistan", influential Washington Post columnist David Ignatius rubbished the Pakistani military's orchestrated media campaign to discredit Petraeus. Ignatius wrote:

"Gen David Petraeus appears to be making a strategic pivot in Afghanistan. He is shooting more, increasing special-operations raids and bombings on Taliban commanders. But he is also talking more - endorsing President Hamid Karzai's reconciliation talks with Taliban officials and guaranteeing their safety to and from Kabul as a confidence-building measure.

With Petraeus in the political-military driver's seat, he can steer a process to push the disparate Taliban groups toward a political settlement. The diplomatic side of this game depends on Petraeus's ability to pound those who resist - with devastating firepower.
That's why he has been pushing Pakistan so hard to step up its operations against the Haqqani network, sheltered in the tribal areas of the northwest, and against the Quetta Shura Taliban fighters, who operate from Baluchistan in Pakistan's southwest."

No doubt, the US is also seeking a regional consensus, as was evident at the special representatives' conference held in Rome this week in which Iran participated for the first time. This political-military approach aims at progressively reducing the US dependence on Pakistan.

Quite clearly, the Headley controversy pops up at a critical point in the Afghan war. Delhi's comfort level with Obama's AfPak policy is rising and the Pakistani military stands to gain immensely if Headley takes the center stage in the region's security discourse.

The Indians would be downright stupid to get agitated over the leaks (which reveal nothing startlingly new) instead of optimizing the outcome of Obama's visit.
As the CNAS report underscores, US interests in a closer security relationship with India include:

# Ensuring a stable Asian and global balance of power.
# Protecting and preserving access to the global commons.
# Countering terrorism and violent extremism.
# Ensuring access to secure global energy resources.
# Fostering greater stability, security and economic prosperity in South Asia, including in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Nepal and Sri Lanka.


Bhadrakumar makes one valid point, but US first needs to accept that Indo-centric TSP Army must be dismantled. Otherwise the US and India will never be on the same page.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Philip » 20 Oct 2010 18:27

Keep puffing on your peace-pipe (filled with the best Afghan opium)Yanquis,dream on and on.Those who have not learnt from the mistakes of history are bound to repeat them.If Petr-ass thinks that he can persuade the Pakis and Afghans to come around,then he must rank as the most optimistic individual on the planet.They will take his money with thanks and spit on him when they backstab him and the US.

The US and Pakistan will try in high-level talks this week to smooth tensions over American military incursions across the border from Afghanistan and allegations that Islamabad is not doing enough to target Taliban militants.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... n-war.html

The talks that start on Wednesday in Washington will be led by US Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi. They also will involve Pakistan's powerful army chief, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, who has developed a strong rapport with senior US officials despite allegations that spies under his command have long aided the Taliban and other Islamist militant groups.

Underscoring those concerns, the Indian government claimed that Pakistan's intelligence agency was deeply involved in planning the 2008 attack that killed 166 people in Mumbai. David Headley, an American who pleaded guilty in U.S. federal court to laying the groundwork for the assault, told Indian interrogators in June that Pakistani intelligence officers were deeply intertwined with Lashkar-e-Taiba, the group blamed in the attack, according to a government report obtained on Monday by The Associated Press.


Speaking to reporters in Washington on Tuesday, Frank Ruggiero, the deputy special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, sidestepped questions about the US pressuring Pakistan to take stronger action against Afghan Taliban leaders who use Pakistan as a haven. The US has raised the issue many times with Pakistani officials, he said, and will continue to do so.

Mr Ruggiero also said Pakistan's flood recovery would be "a primary area for discussion." He declined to say whether the US would announce a new package of security assistance during the talks.
Last edited by Philip on 20 Oct 2010 18:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby CRamS » 20 Oct 2010 18:29

Pranav wrote:Bhadrakumar makes one valid point, but US first needs to accept that Indo-centric TSP Army must be dismantled. Otherwise the US and India will never be on the same page.


Thats the outcome which US, even if it wants, cannot declare openly. Rather, India has a legitimate right & expectation for US to accept that:

1) India is much a victim of terror as the west, if not more. None of this "global terror" Vs "regional terror" nonsense.
2) Once, #1 is accepted, US further needs to accept that terror against India originates from TSP its ally in the so called "war on terror".
3) Once #1 and #2 are accepted, it follows that US aid including western aid is conditioned on TSP dismantling all terror, including LET and not just what is targeting the west.

If #1, 2, and 3 are in place, the only natural outcome is the destruction of TSPA/ISI, indeed TSP itself because as well know it. To state the obvious: TSP cannot exist without its ability to torment & harass India.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Pranav » 20 Oct 2010 18:37

CRamS wrote:1) India is much a victim of terror as the west, if not more. None of this "global terror" Vs "regional terror" nonsense.
2) Once, #1 is accepted, US further needs to accept that terror against India originates from TSP its ally in the so called "war on terror".
3) Once #1 and #2 are accepted, it follows that US aid including western aid is conditioned on TSP dismantling all terror, including LET and not just what is targeting the west.

If #1, 2, and 3 are in place, the only natural outcome is the destruction of TSPA/ISI, indeed TSP itself because as well know it. To state the obvious: TSP cannot exist without its ability to torment & harass India.


TSPA is very capable of putting on a show about how it is "dismantling terror". Of course, "freedom fighters" like Syed Salahuddin or Hafiz Saeed will not be classified as terrorists.

I don't think India should show any interest in the same old song and dance. If the US is strategically reorienting itself, then one can talk.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby A Arun » 20 Oct 2010 19:19

MPAs debate impact of Indian TV, cartoons and music

A resolution calling for a ban on Indian cartoons was one of the five presented and defeated in the assembly. Law Minister Rana Sanaullah defended the composition of the taskforces working in the province.

MPA Samina Khawar Hayat said that the Indian media were manipulating the minds of the children through Indian cartoons. She said that they were promoting the Hindu culture in Pakistani children, and proposed a resolution banning such programmes.

Deputy speaker Rana Mashood responded that the channels could not be banned and people should take responsibility for their children. “If we bring up our children in a proper way, no such programme can affect them,” he said.

Advocate Tayyaba Zameer said that the devastation caused by the Indian dramas was far greater than the devastation brought by the floods or the earthquake.

PPP MPA Sajjida Mir opposed the resolution, saying it would be followed by a resolution demanding the closure of Hindu temples and gurdwaras. Hayat replied that she had moved the resolution for the benefit of the children of Pakistan.

Hassan Murtaza, a PPP MPA, said that the Pakistani society had double standards.

He said that things condemned inside the assembly were openly followed outside it. He said that Khwaja Imran Nazir apparently opposed Indian songs, but listened to them in private. “Yesterday, when I asked Khwaja Imran Nazir for a lift, he was listening to Munni Badnam, an Indian song, in his car,” he said. :rotfl: Nazir called Murataza a ‘liar.’ “I have never given Hassan Murtaza a lift,” Nazir said.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby SSridhar » 20 Oct 2010 19:34

Pranav wrote:I don't think India should show any interest in the same old song and dance. If the US is strategically reorienting itself, then one can talk.

Yes, it is the Obama administration that is bringing back the hyphenation. There is nothing more strategically or even tactically threatening to us at this point (apart from PRC which in a way is also related to Pakistan) than Pakistan. The US protection and accommodation of TSP is increasingly unacceptable to us. The US is talking to us with a forked tongue about TSP and it is time to call the bluff.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby saip » 20 Oct 2010 19:35

Nazir called Murataza a ‘liar.’ “I have never given Hassan Murtaza a lift,” Nazir said.


Well, he did not deny he was listening to indian song, only that he has not given lift. Perhaps, the other guy only asked for lift and never accepted it.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby ajit_tr » 20 Oct 2010 20:46

President Obama may surprise Pakistan
ISLAMABAD: As an apparent balancing side-trip to his scheduled Indian tour early next month, US President Barack Obama may pay a surprise visit to Pakistan, The Express Tribune has learnt.
A top foreign ministry official has confirmed that Islamabad was making hectic diplomatic efforts to ensure that the US president’s forthcoming trip to the region does include Pakistan.
“We believe the US president must visit Pakistan while touring India. If he does not visit Islamabad, it will not go down well with the public here,” the official added. He said the issue will also be raised in the Pak-US strategic dialogue.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/64949/presi ... -pakistan/

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Hari Seldon » 20 Oct 2010 21:02

^^^ Let's hope he surprises India also by not coming here.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Manishw » 20 Oct 2010 21:12

Hari Seldon wrote:^^^ Let's hope he surprises India also by not coming here.


Would love to see the look on our Hon PM''s face if this were to pass.He seems to be the most loyal of Ombaba's admirers. :)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Johann » 20 Oct 2010 21:14

SSridhar wrote:
Pranav wrote:I don't think India should show any interest in the same old song and dance. If the US is strategically reorienting itself, then one can talk.

Yes, it is the Obama administration that is bringing back the hyphenation. There is nothing more strategically or even tactically threatening to us at this point (apart from PRC which in a way is also related to Pakistan) than Pakistan. The US protection and accommodation of TSP is increasingly unacceptable to us. The US is talking to us with a forked tongue about TSP and it is time to call the bluff.


S Sridhar,

Please see my earlier comments on the US, Af-Pak and TSP threads. The Obama administration's deep divisions over how to deal with the Taliban are producing incoherent policy in the entire region, including towards India as well. No one knows where this is going, not even Obama. All anyone can do is hope for the best, prepare for the worst, but most of all stay alert.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Prem » 20 Oct 2010 21:19

Hari Seldon wrote:^^^ Let's hope he surprises India also by not coming here.

NO, its better if he spend weekend Fri-Sunday in Quetta,Lahore and Islamabad and deliver the message of peace there and make 30 minute halt in Delhi on the way to Maldive. It will be a lesson in reality for netas.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby shiv » 20 Oct 2010 21:20

Prem wrote:
Hari Seldon wrote:^^^ Let's hope he surprises India also by not coming here.

NO, its better if he spend weekend Fri-Sunday in Quetta,Lahore and Islamabad and deliver the message of peace there and make 30 minute halt in Delhi on the way to Maldive. It will be a lesson in reality for netas.


It would be really funny if he came and lectured India for 15 minutes and then left. :D

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Prem » 20 Oct 2010 21:37

Doc,
You mean he on the podium and all the netas sitting cross legged on the floor listening to Papa.
The question is how long the Poak pandering will keep going by the 3.5 lovers. In some weird way , this kind of PoakPrem by Massa also provide India the excuse, reason , oppertunity and independence to keep her options open to be used against Poaks in near future. By giving comfort and aid Poakpremis open themeselves to the accusations for all the misdeeds done by Poaks against indians.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby ramana » 20 Oct 2010 21:38

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ it was done before, but was brushed aside, since we were SDRE crypto communists onlee
now that they need our money, its changing...


Not to mention Hindu Nazis who waer turbans.

SSridhar brilliant summaries. Please blog them.

Thanks, ramana

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 20 Oct 2010 21:46

Pakistan's claim of abusive crowd ridiculous: Indian players

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cwgarticleshow/6780324.cms
Current and former Indian players on Wednesday reacted angrily to Pakistan hockey team's claim that an "abusive" crowd was one of the reasons for its failure at the Commonwealth Games, saying the statement was a "lame excuse" for poor performance.

India captain Rajpal Singh said Pakistan's claim was ridiculous and it was an old habit of the team to put the blame on others for poor show.

"This is a ridiculous excuse. If they were facing such problems then why did they keep mum after the World Cup? During CWG they were praising Indian hospitality everywhere and now they are blaming our crowd. Actually it is their old habit." :rotfl: Rajpal said.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 20 Oct 2010 22:05

General Jack Keane's (Petraeus' mentor) interview is available at charlierose.com

He vents about Haqqani sanctuaries in Pakistan and says that someone (either NATO or Paki govt) has to take them out.
He says that many Pakis (and not just Afghans) are fighting NATO troops.
He says that Paki army is training Haqqani group.
He says that their paranoia about India notwithstanding, Pakis have to choose which side they want to help because the Americans will go what is good for them (US) and the host country (Afghans)

This is consistent with what Petraeus is doing in Afghanistan.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/LJ21Df01.html

The tough line adopted lately by the US commander in Afghanistan, General David Petraeus, vis-a-vis Pakistan is making things hot for the military leadership in Rawalpindi. The US is in no mood to accede to the Pakistani military leadership's demand to be the key facilitator of any Afghan settlement, and instead has begun explicitly backing Hamid Karzai's "Afghan-led, Afghan-driven" peace plan.

Meanwhile, NATO cross-border operations on Pakistani territory infuriate the Pakistani military. In short, as the New York Times commented: "General Petraeus seems determined to show progress on achieving American goals in Afghanistan - both military and political - ahead of a December review of the war effort ordered by Obama."

The Pakistani military establishment is furious with Petraeus :(( . A highly placed Pakistani general has been quoted as threatening: "Petraeus has to lower his goalposts if he wishes to see some semblance of peace in Afghanistan." The Pakistani military is hoping Obama will ultimately rein in Petraeus and sue for peace.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Johann » 20 Oct 2010 22:21

The PA's greatest asset in the USG from the Eisenhower administration onwards was its image as a reliable source of disciplined troops available for the defence of key energy routes.

No matter what happens, the PA's duplicitous behaviour in rearming and reorganising the Taliban since 2004 and its frequent 'peace accords' with the Pakiban has steadily eroded that image within American institutions, starting with the US Army, US Marine Corps and DoD.

The second asset was its willingness to serve as an American intelligence gathering base. I don't think that has changed yet.


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Pranav » 20 Oct 2010 22:53

A professionally made film on Mahdi Zaid Hamid, made by Iranians (Press TV and Iranian Embassy in Islamabad).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FvdkQruws0&feature=sub
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y75XRA1cMJQ&feature=sub
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf90u6_6Kqg&feature=sub

Why are Iranians getting mixed up with these types?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 20 Oct 2010 22:56

Pranav wrote:Why are Iranians getting mixed up with these types?


The Ummah itch is always there.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Nandu » 21 Oct 2010 00:23

abhishek_sharma wrote:
Pranav wrote:Why are Iranians getting mixed up with these types?


The Ummah itch is always there.

I disagree. Iranians are eager to embrace any anti-American rant or conspiracy theory, regardless of Ummah.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Pranav » 21 Oct 2010 06:16

abhishek_sharma wrote:General Jack Keane's (Petraeus' mentor) interview is available at charlierose.com

He vents about Haqqani sanctuaries in Pakistan and says that someone (either NATO or Paki govt) has to take them out.
He says that many Pakis (and not just Afghans) are fighting NATO troops.
He says that Paki army is training Haqqani group.
He says that their paranoia about India notwithstanding, Pakis have to choose which side they want to help because the Americans will go what is good for them (US) and the host country (Afghans)

This is consistent with what Petraeus is doing in Afghanistan.


That was a pretty good interview. US Mil understands that Poaks are the cancer ... it is the elite class that wants to support the Poaks for containing India, amongst other reasons.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Johann » 21 Oct 2010 06:34

Nandu wrote:I disagree. Iranians are eager to embrace any anti-American rant or conspiracy theory, regardless of Ummah.


Depends on which Iranians you are talking about - there's millions of Iranians with family in the US who would like to see better relations with the West.

The mass anti-American frenzy of the revolution died back in the 1980s. The regime tries to keep up the facade, but its largely hollow.

You have an easier time getting young Iranians to chant "Death to China" today, something that happened during last years Quds Day when they were supposed to chant "Death to America".


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