Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2010

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Prem » 15 Dec 2010 06:06

Playing little-boy games
Kamran Shafi ..... The Lone Normal man in Poakland

The , one of the most respected newspapers in the world, and one of the three that WikiLeaks first leaked to, blew holes the size of a football pitch into the faked story, leaving us Pakistanis with more egg on our faces. By God, the amount of derisory emails I have received! Is this what we Pakistanis are? Fraudsters and con artists extraordinaire? Liars and cheats of the first order? No, no, not all Pakistanis, surely? The actual fraudsters and con artists who stay in the shadows and do their stupidities.Nor is this all. Those who directed the faking of the so-called WikiLeaks on India, and those who actually faked them, have only shown that they are a puerile and foolish lot. Which is fine by me. What I object to most vociferously is the fact that all of us Pakistanis have been made to look bad because of the shenanigans of those few who do what they do. GuardianAnd who are they? We do not have to look far beyond the story, and one in one of the English-language newspapers which printed the faked `leaks`.The fingers appear to point at the security establishment and its paid toadies and hangers-on who we know well from the unsolicited emails we receive by the dozen every single day: yarns spun on God knows what evidence; the most wild allegations and conspiracy theories even a fool would not believe.We know too that the establishment keeps a veritable stable of what it thinks are whiz kids who not only write the height of nonsense, but also speak the height of nonsense on its behalf. The question we must ask, however, is whether those that run the establishment live in cloud cuckoo land? Do they have no measure of the damage their servants are doing to the country?
We must note that they, fake American accents and all, are not giving up even after the shame of the fake leaks being caught out. The newest spin is that if the real WikiLeaks can badmouth Pakistan why can they not badmouth India? I ask you. Are you listening, gentlemen?I write this from Kabul where the Fourth Afghanistan-India-Pakistan Trialogue is being held. The loudest message our Afghan friends are sending out is that they be left alone … for both Pakistan and India to stop using their country as a chessboard. That if Pakistan is such a friend why does it not allow freer trade between the three countries so Afghan fruit can find its way to Indian markets before it spoils? And, gentlemen, listen closely: Pakistan is the most hated country in Afghanistan today. So, go figure.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby SSridhar » 15 Dec 2010 06:29

Seems to be the general consensus
Ms. Curtis told The Hindu that even Mr. Holbrooke, who brought to bear some of the best diplomatic and negotiating skills that existed in the U.S. government, “was unable to get Pakistan on board to deal with Taliban sanctuaries in Pakistan.”

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby CRamS » 15 Dec 2010 07:04

Dipanker wrote:Noose tightening around Pakis neck?

Top US officer: Pakistan knows what we want


To which, Kiyani's brazen response will be: USA knows what we want. And many top US officers are also aware of this demand.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Pranay » 15 Dec 2010 07:23

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/15/world ... ?ref=world

America’s top military officer visited Pakistan’s capital on Tuesday, carrying what he called a strong sense of “strategic impatience” with the government here over its failure to clear insurgents from border havens where they prepare lethal attacks against American and allied forces in Afghanistan.


“We want to solve it overnight,” Admiral Mullen said. “There is a strategic impatience on the part of myself and others. For the long-term relationship, there has got to be strategic patience. And there is a tension there. I think we both understand that.”

Admiral Mullen has sought to develop a relationship with Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, the Pakistani army chief. To make this visit, his 21st trip to Pakistan as chairman, Admiral Mullen slipped away unannounced from a holiday U.S.O. tour in Iraq.

This visit comes as the Obama administration prepares this week to announce a review of its strategy in Afghanistan. It is also Admiral Mullen’s first visit to his Pakistani counterpart after embarrassing leaks of classified diplomatic cables revealed strong American criticisms of the Pakistani government and its top intelligence service, the ISI.

“There aren’t any awkward times,” he said. “That doesn’t mean there are not hard issues to address.”

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Rangudu » 15 Dec 2010 07:44

CRamS wrote:To which, Kiyani's brazen response will be: USA knows what we want. And many top US officers are also aware of this demand.


Actually, I don't think so. The issue is that Kayani and co have not said what they want, other than repeating their whines about India, Cashmere, Balochistan etc. I've asked some retired types with connections, including some TSPians and they all say that Holbrooke and others have pushed Kayani and co to name their baksheesh for which TSPA will verifiably give up its "assets" and Kayani would not (or could not?). It is not just Kayani - it is the general RAPE/TSPA type as well.

Even in the latest "non-paper" that Kayani directly handed over to Obama last month there are no clear demands, at least as per reports. It only has vague "end-points" which don't have a timeline, at which the jihadi threat is supposed to reduce.

I know of one ex-US official who asked a well connected former TSPA Jernail - exactly what do you guys want in Afghanistan i.e. zero Indian presence or no consulates or no Indians in border provinces etc. and there was no response. The ex-US official, who is more candid now, told me that the clear conclusion was that there is no realistic scenario under which bribes or anti-India tilt will cause TSP to give up LeT or Haqqani type proxies.

I think that the official US circles are slowly moving towards that conclusion, even if some die hard State Dept types will try to peddle the bribe option.

I also think that Kayani and his ilk are realizing that they cannot dismount the tiger without getting some body part eaten off. That's why they are not asking for realistic bribes, knowing that they cannot deliver the goods if their bluff is called.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby A_Gupta » 15 Dec 2010 08:07

Rangudu wrote:I know of one ex-US official who asked a well connected former TSPA Jernail - exactly what do you guys want in Afghanistan i.e. zero Indian presence or no consulates or no Indians in border provinces etc. and there was no response. The ex-US official, who is more candid now, told me that the clear conclusion was that there is no realistic scenario under which bribes or anti-India tilt will cause TSP to give up LeT or Haqqani type proxies.


I thought this was purely Jinnah's style of negotiating. It is really a national characteristic, it seems.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby ramana » 15 Dec 2010 08:37

Actually its a desi style. One never asks for what one wants for the other side knows your position. Instead see what is offered and one can take other things along with what you want.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Joseph » 15 Dec 2010 08:54

ramana and JEM,

I understand that Pakistan is at a fork in history and needs to make a decision on which path to take, but I am not optimistic that the Pakistani leadership will choose the right direction.

Perhaps I am expecting indications of a change too quickly, but nothing that I have seen in recent months shows that the Pakistanis leadership even realizes they need to make a major decision in the very near future.

There was a video earlier this year with Hillary Clinton have a discussion with some RAPE types and the RAPES kept wanting to talk about India and Kashmir. When Clinton tried to steer the conversation to needed improvements within Pakistan, the RAPES had no desire to discuss that topic area.

Even after the repeated pleading, bribing, begging and similar that the U.S. has done to get the PA to act against the Taliban - Haqqani network in North Waziristan, the PA has refused to perform.

The radical Mullahs still spew their venom and people like Hafiz Saeed can't be touched.

Since the Pakistani leadership has been getting away with this behavior for decades, they probably think it will be business as usual well into the future.

Other Bad Boys such as North Korea and Iran haven't been dismantled, so the Pakistani leadership likely feels that they can continue on their current course. Someone asked me what was the U.S. getting in return for the billions being gifted to Pakistan. I told them transit rights for supply convoys and the ability to have audiences with the Pakistani leadership. Anything beyond that was a bonus for the U.S.

The audiences - discussions have lead to very little that is positive for the U.S. and the rest of the world, but at least there is a foot in the door which is more than what is currently available with North Korea and Iran.

Perhaps I am more pessimistic about Pakistan and its leadership than both of you.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby CRamS » 15 Dec 2010 09:41

R-man,

Could it be that the prize Kiyani & Co (RAPE) want, which we all knows is the dismemberment of India, cannot be articulated in a way that US could realistically agree to? In other words, there is no scenario which will leave India the dominant power & rising will satisfy TSP. Its not about Afganisthan, not about Kashmir per se; its the weakining of India (although TSP believes with good reason that dismemberment of the valley from India will set in motion a chain of events that will balkanize India and hence their K obsession). How can Kiayni & Co, brazen as their demands are visa vi India, articulate such a demand and be taken seriously? Thats why TSP's best option is to hold out, preserve the terror & nuke assets for a rainy day, and launch an ultimate attack on India. Don't you think this is their game plan?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby ramana » 15 Dec 2010 09:45

CRS call cheyandi tomorrow.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby SSridhar » 15 Dec 2010 09:46

I feel there are only two types of people in Pakistan: one, those who want to destroy India and take over the destroyed country to establish the Grand Caliphate (the Wahhabi/Deobandi/Ahl-e-Hadith Islamists) and two, those who want an enduring hostility with India so that their pre-eminence within Pakistan will continue, their coffers will be filled and their families will flourish (the PA, Establishment, Politicians and the RAPEs). Let's call the former Type-1 and the latter Type-2. The Type-1 were kept in check by the latter and were unleashed periodically upon India. The Type-1s were never allowed to run amok for if that happened the Type-2s would have been swept away. This was how Maududi was managed and the same technique has been employed since then. However, slowly, the Type-1s got impatient with the latter and as is natural in any such unholy alliance, the more fundamentalists began acting increasingly independently, with the result some sections known as the 'bad Taliban' broke away. External events hastened the process and sealed the split. Type-2s managed to retain some of the Janissary (like LeT and an ambivalent JeM) frequently referred to as 'good Taliban'. Sections of the 'good Taliban' have also been attracted to the 'bad Taliban' because of their machismo and are deserting the Type-2 camp.

The PA and the Establishment are therefore caught in a cleft. They are neither able to identify themselves totally with the Type-1s nor able to further the interests of the Type-2s. Unlike the during the days of the Afghan Jihad against the Soviet Union, no country is supporting Pakistan in its stance. Its Western friends fear Pakistan. Hence, its negotiating position vis-a-vis the US is tactical. The only strategic vision for Pakistan is *not* to establish peace with India, which is the common denominator between the Type-1s & 2s.
Last edited by SSridhar on 17 Dec 2010 17:44, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Corrected LeJ to JeM.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby ramana » 15 Dec 2010 09:51

Great analysis of the dance of the snake and the scorpion. When and will it end?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 15 Dec 2010 09:56

Post-Holbrooke Question: ‘What Now?’

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/15/world/15diplo.html

When President Obama turned to Richard C. Holbrooke during a White House meeting on Afghanistan last year, Mr. Holbrooke spoke gravely of the historic challenge the two men faced, likening it to when Clark M. Clifford advised Lyndon B. Johnson about what to do in Vietnam.

“Richard,” an impatient Mr. Obama interrupted him, “do people really talk like that?”

That strained exchange helps explain why Mr. Holbrooke, the special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, was an awkward fit in the Obama administration. A man of high drama and an acute sense of his own role, he ruffled feathers in a White House that prides itself on team-playing and a lack of drama.

...

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton wants to keep together the team that Mr. Holbrooke recruited, which includes more than 40 diplomats, intelligence analysts, military officers, and experts from the Treasury, agriculture, and other departments. They function as a sort of diplomatic SWAT team, operating out of cramped offices near the State Department cafeteria. Mr. Holbrooke liked to point out that many countries named their own special representatives for Afghanistan and Pakistan.

...

For all the encomiums, though, Mr. Holbrooke was on tenuous footing with the White House. He was left off Air Force One on Mr. Obama’s last two trips to Afghanistan and was increasingly marginalized in policy debates. He held on to his job, several officials said, mainly because Mrs. Clinton protected him.

...

“His pushing of the civilian surge, and his emphasis on agriculture, gave reality to something which had been theoretical,” said Bruce O. Riedel, a former intelligence official who ran the administration’s first Afghanistan review.

Mr. Riedel also credited Mr. Holbrooke with popularizing the idea of Afghanistan and Pakistan as a linked problem. Now, however, Mr. Riedel said, the administration ought to reconsider the idea of an emissary for the two countries, saying it wrongly excludes India.

In his forthcoming book, “Deadly Embrace: Pakistan, America, and the Future of the Global Jihad,” Mr. Riedel wrote that “Pakistan cannot be effectively assisted without dealing with the issue that dominates Pakistan’s strategic calculus: as always, India.”


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby ramana » 15 Dec 2010 10:00

Vinasha kaale vipritih buddhi!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 15 Dec 2010 10:01

MEA Press Release

http://www.mea.gov.in/mystart.php?id=530216853

Demise of Ambassador Richard Holbrooke

December 14, 2010


The news of the untimely demise of Ambassador Richard Holbrooke has come as a great shock. An accomplished diplomat, he served his country and the cause of international peace and security, with distinction and exceptional insight, in his long and eventful career. He leaves behind a number of friends and admirers in India :?: and indeed the world over. Our heartfelt condolences to members of his family and friends.

New Delhi
December 14, 2010

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 15 Dec 2010 10:07

Holbrooke and India: When irresistible force met immovable object

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Holbrooke-and-India-When-irresistible-force-met-immovable-object/articleshow/7102868.cms

The man who died of a ruptured aorta was famously credited with bursting blood vessels of many a player in the world diplomatic community. Richard Holbrooke, who passed away on Monday in Washington DC at the age of 69 from complications following a heart surgery, was variously described as feisty, abrasive, and high-octane by admirers and critics alike. His in-your-face style earned him the nickname " Raging Bull." Henry Kissinger, his forbear in the world of aggressive diplomacy, once advised someone, "If Richard calls you and asks you for something, just say yes. If you say no, you'll eventually get to yes, but the journey will be very painful."

But in the solid, stolid Indian government, Holbrooke, the irresistible force, met the immovable object. "New Delhi must have caused the ruptured aorta," was the feeble joke in the Indian analysts' community, as news of the death of this much-admired and often-feared man trickled through the diplomatic world. Some mandarins compared him to J.N.Dixit, India's former foreign secretary, who died less than a year into his role as the National Security Advisor, before he could leave his imprint on India's foreign policy, born from a capacious intellect and ceaseless learning.

...


He believed that resolving the Afghan situation was linked to ending the tensions Pakistan had with India, and at the end of that rainbow (according to his fan club), lay a Nobel Prize.

But New Delhi, questioning the line of argument linking Af-Pak to Kashmir, balked. The Obama administration was persuaded to keep Holbrooke's mandate restricted to Af-Pak, with the assurance that India would be happy to informally discuss its views on the region with him. For several months thereafter, Holbrooke tried to visit New Delhi, but there was always "scheduling problems" and the two sides struggled to find "mutually acceptable dates" – diplospeak for "you are not welcome just now."

...

When New Delhi finally consented to receive him in January this year, it was not the lion it expected, but a lamb. As Ambassador Timothy Roemer reported in his cable to Washington DC (disclosed by Wikileaks), Holbrooke, in his meeting with India's Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao, "noted that he comes with a clear vision of the centrality of India to the strategic landscape in the region... He reiterated that his portfolio explicitly excludes India...Holbrooke assured Rao that he is in favor of Indian assistance programs in Afghanistan and is not influenced by what he hears in Islamabad."


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Rangudu » 15 Dec 2010 10:12

CRamS wrote:hold out, preserve the terror & nuke assets for a rainy day, and launch an ultimate attack on India. Don't you think this is their game plan?


Please read this along with SS' great post above.

That is the hope of Hamid Gul and the dyed in the wool Wahabandi types (Type 1), but Kayani and co are too materialistic to want that (Type 2). What I mean is that everyone knows that an "ultimate attack" will result in their own destruction as well. Maybe the jihadi types truly believe in 72 houris etc. but Kayani and co have second mansions in UK/US/Dubai and their wives go to Europe to "shop", their kids study abroad etc.

This is why, as long as the Type 2's are in power, they can never say what they want.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby sanjaykumar » 15 Dec 2010 10:46

Pakistan exists for schadenfreude ie that is its not illegitimate function- a troubled India affirms their Islamist gestalt. Without the borderline personality act (and it is an act), Pakistan has no internal validation. Along with Andalusia, Vienna it is India that is an affront to desert Islam. And Pakistan as the successor Islamic entity bears full responsibility.

India poorer than Pakistan was tolerable but a dar ul harb richer and more powerful and technologically advanced than its social and religious superiors is unacceptable to Pakistan.

Pakistan becomes the suicide bomber.

In its death throes, it may accomplish part of its mission. Afghanistan, Kashmir, Siachen, Hyderabad, Sir Creek-these are the babblings of a monomaniacal, morbidly jealous entity. Indians need to learn to ignore the litany of wrongs and the self-pity. And India needs to establish a poison pill doctrine of its own (like Pakistan's threat to attack India at any provocation)-enunciate an analogous intention to launch a strike on what is most valuable to Pakistanis' culture.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Prem » 15 Dec 2010 11:00

Sanjay, Yidnians need to learn from Uncle and be on all the sides . Let Scorpian and Snake dance and bite each other , lets show money to RAPEs, Show Claws to APEs=Arabized Paki Entities , Indulge Poak "Intellectuals", help opressed ones and keep straight fingers in every Poak pie and crooked fingers in every Poak Musharraf . Make sure every die hard know what you alludes to and more than that about their kiths and kins . Then any final outcome of Poaktard struggle will have minimum impact on Indian wellbeing. These are the people who have historically bended under duress. From forced conversion to 47 to 71 to Kargil, they have never stood their ground and faced the music collectivly .

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 15 Dec 2010 11:34

Holbrooke's last words

http://www.politico.com/blogs/laurarozen/1210/Holbrookes_last_words_.html

State Department Spokesman P.J. Crowley clarified today:

I should note that a lot of media coverage this morning about the interaction between Ambassador Holbrooke and his medical team as he was preparing for surgery for Friday — I've consulted with a number of folks who were in the room.

There was a, you know, lengthy exchange with Ambassador Holbrooke and the medical team, probably reflecting Richard's relentless pursuit of the policy that he had — he had helped to craft and was charged by the president and the secretary with carrying out.

At one point, the medical team said, "You've got to relax."

And Richard said, "I can't relax. I'm worried about Afghanistan and Pakistan."

And then after some additional exchanges, you know, the medical team finally — finally said, "Well, tell you what; we'll try to fix this challenge while you're undergoing surgery."

And he said, "Yeah, see if you can take care of that, including ending the war."

But certainly it — it says two things about Richard Holbrooke in my mind. No. 1, he always wanted to make sure he got the last word. And — and secondly, it just showed how he was singularly focused on pursuing and advancing the — the process and the policies in Afghanistan and Pakistan to bring them to a successful conclusion.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 15 Dec 2010 11:41

Intelligence Reports Offer Dim Views of Afghan War

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/15/world/asia/15policy.html

As President Obama prepares to release a review of American strategy in Afghanistan that will claim progress in the nine-year-old war there, two new classified intelligence reports offer a more negative assessment and say there is a limited chance of success unless Pakistan hunts down insurgents operating from havens on its Afghan border.

The reports, one on Afghanistan and one on Pakistan, say that although there have been gains for the United States and NATO in the war, the unwillingness of Pakistan to shut down militant sanctuaries in its lawless tribal region remains a serious obstacle. American military commanders say insurgents freely cross from Pakistan into Afghanistan to plant bombs and fight American troops and then return to Pakistan for rest and resupply.

The findings in the reports, called National Intelligence Estimates, represent the consensus view of the United States’ 16 intelligence agencies, as opposed to the military, and were provided last week to some members of the Senate and House Intelligence Committees. The findings were described by a number of American officials who read the reports’ executive summaries.

American military commanders and senior Pentagon officials have already criticized the reports as out of date ...

...

For their part, American commanders and Pentagon officials say they do not yet know if the war can be won without more cooperation from Pakistan. But after years and billions spent trying to win the support of the Pakistanis, they are now proceeding on the assumption that there will be limited help from them. The American commanders and officials readily describe the havens for insurgents in Pakistan as a major impediment to military operations.

“I’m not going to make any bones about it, they’ve got sanctuaries and they go back and forth across the border,” Maj. Gen. John F. Campbell, the commander of NATO forces in eastern Afghanistan, told reporters last week in the remote Kunar Province of Afghanistan. “They’re financed better, they’re better trained, they’re the ones who bring in the higher-end I.E.D.’s.” General Campbell was referring to improvised explosive devices, the military’s name for the insurgent-made bombs, the leading cause of American military deaths in Afghanistan.

American commanders say their plan in the next few years is to kill large numbers of insurgents in the border region — the military refers to it as “degrading the Taliban” — and at the same time build up the Afghan National Army to the point that the Afghans can at least contain an insurgency still supported by Pakistan. (American officials say Pakistan supports the insurgents as a proxy force in Afghanistan, preparing for the day the Americans leave.)

“That is not the optimal solution, obviously,” said Bruce O. Riedel, a former C.I.A. official and now a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, who led a White House review of Afghan strategy last year that resulted in Mr. Obama sending the additional forces. “But we have to deal with the world we have, not the world we’d like. We can’t make Pakistan stop being naughty.”

Publicly, American officials and military commanders continue to praise Pakistan and its military chief, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, if only for acknowledging the problem.

“General Kayani and others have been clear in recognizing that they need to do more for their security and indeed to carry out operations against those who threaten other countries’ security,” Gen. David H. Petraeus, the top American commander in Afghanistan, said last week.

But many Afghan officials say that the United States, which sends Pakistan about $2 billion in military and civilian aid each year, is coddling Pakistan for no end. “They are capitalizing on your immediate security needs, and they are stuck in this thinking that bad behavior brings cash,” said Amrullah Saleh, the former Afghan intelligence chief, in an interview on Tuesday.

...

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby KLNMurthy » 15 Dec 2010 12:57

SSridhar wrote:I feel there are only two types of people in Pakistan: one, those who want to destroy India and take over the destroyed country to establish the Grand Caliphate (the Wahhabi/Deobandi/Ahl-e-Hadith Islamists) and two, those who want an enduring hostility with India so that their pre-eminence within Pakistan will continue, their coffers will be filled and their families will flourish (the PA, Establishment, Politicians and the RAPEs). Let's call the former Type-1 and the latter Type-2. The Type-1 were kept in check by the latter and were unleashed periodically upon India. The Type-1s were never allowed to run amok for if that happened the Type-2s would have been swept away. This was how Maududi was managed and the same technique has been employed since then. However, slowly, the Type-1s got impatient with the latter and as is natural in any such unholy alliance, the more fundamentalists began acting increasingly independently, with the result some sections known as the 'bad Taliban' broke away. External events hastened the process and sealed the split. Type-2s managed to retain some of the Janissary (like LeT and an ambivalent LeJ) frequently referred to as 'good Taliban'. Sections of the 'good Taliban' have also been attracted to the 'bad Taliban' because of their machismo and are deserting the Type-2 camp.

The PA and the Establishment are therefore caught in a cleft. They are neither able to identify themselves totally with the Type-1s nor able to further the interests of the Type-2s. Unlike the during the days of the Afghan Jihad against the Soviet Union, no country is supporting Pakistan in its stance. Its Western friends fear Pakistan. Hence, its negotiating position vis-a-vis the US is tactical. The only strategic vision for Pakistan is *not* to establish peace with India, which is the common denominator between the Type-1s & 2s.


I think there is only type 1, some of whom are managing to profit more than others in the process of achieving the type 1 dream, thus giving the impression of there being a type 2 also.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Lalmohan » 15 Dec 2010 13:34

type 1 is in the ascendant
type 2 has painted itself into a corner
and has no where left to go
if we dont want type 1 to take over post US withdrawal, we'll have to intervene

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Pratyush » 15 Dec 2010 14:11

Lalmohan wrote:type 1 is in the ascendant
type 2 has painted itself into a corner
and has no where left to go
if we dont want type 1 to take over post US withdrawal, we'll have to intervene


We can let the two fight it out and support the Weaker of the two when ever that changes. Keep the balance if you will.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby RajeshA » 15 Dec 2010 14:25

Type 1 or Type 2, we have to go after the source of the funding for these groups, go after the Gulf charities, UK & USA charities, Ushr collected from Pakjabi farmers, drug trafficking, and the money that 3½ friends give.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby SSridhar » 15 Dec 2010 15:26

Rajesh, first we have to recognize that Pakistan is indeed a daemon whose time has come to be slayed. What means we employ to slay it would follow the recognition that we can no longer put up with Pakistan. I am not sure if GoI, or even many members of this forum, has come to that conclusion. I have, though. Indeed, a long time back.

Once we make that determination that this daemon is not going to die merely by wishful thinking or even incoherent attempts by us, rest will follow. Our mythologies are replete with examples of daemons being slayed in bloody fights. Mahabharata shows devious ways employed by Lord Krishna to fight the evil. There is no place for inaction or personal abhorrence for deviance in the practice of statecraft. We have exhausted all possible means to protect ourselves and we have not been entirely successful. The deviant power next door has shown its resilience. It must henceforth be an all out war on all fronts, political, economic, coercive, military, cultural, sports et al. I do not foresee any one or a combination of a few alone as successful. I am heartened by the recent objections by India to EU on the GSP+ privilege being contemplated for Pakistan, objections we lodged with several countries including China on involving themselves in projects in PoK etc. We must put unrelenting pressure on Pakistan and its supporters.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Pratyush » 15 Dec 2010 15:38

SS & Rajesh,

For that to happen, the leadership must be proud of the past and not ashamed of it. The moment that is accomplished thing will begin to change.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Philip » 15 Dec 2010 15:41

The demon can be slayed best by its own godfather and chief sponsor,the US of A.As it colludes with China to strengthen the hands and arms of the Taliban,Pak invites further US/NATO drone attacks,which result in NATO convoys being attacked in return.This spiral into the abyss must be further encouraged and the cycle of US/Paki counter-punching should increase in intensity ti ultimately force the US to start using their B-52s to pulverise the ranks and territory of the ungodly,even to neutralising Pak's nuclear capability.From the Iraq War we have seen that collateral damage is not an issue with US military planners.As I said before,as in Vietnam,"Pak must be destroyed,in order to save it".Today Pak must be destroyed not only to "save Pak', but also to "save the world " from the threat of Islamist nuclear terrorism.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Pratyush » 15 Dec 2010 15:42

'No success in Afghan war unless Pak hunts down insurgents'

If only the words could be translated into action.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby SSridhar » 15 Dec 2010 15:50

Philip wrote:The demon can be slayed best by its own godfather and chief sponsor,the US of A.

That is one more route we must follow. Then, that process must be encouraged too. We must do everything within our powers to hasten that process. Again, I wouldn't put all our eggs in the American basket alone. The outcome may not be to our liking. No option is closed for us and all options must be open.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Pratyush » 15 Dec 2010 15:54

Meanwhile in TSP business as usual.......

Graft tremor in Pak rocks Gilani govt

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Philip » 15 Dec 2010 16:11

Delhi hospital confirms ISI agent’s death, details vanish from Pak site

http://news.in.msn.com/national/article ... 915&page=2

New Delhi: A day after The Indian Express reported on the entry on the Pakistan Army website about the “martyrdom” in Delhi of an ISI agent on a “Suicide Attack” operation, top sources in the capital’s Sir Ganga Ram Hospital confirmed that the death did indeed occur.

The ISI operative, Naik Zulfiqar Ahmed of the HQ 30 Corps, was referred to the hospital by the Pakistan High Commission, which also paid his medical bills, the sources said.

He was admitted in the hospital's nephrology department on November 1, 2007, and died "after fifteen days, most probably from kidney-related problems", a source said. No foul play was suspected, he added.

According to information put up on the Pakistan Army website's Shuhada's (Martyrs') Corner, Ahmed, from Bhimber in PoK, died on November 16, 2007 at "Ganga Ram Hosp N/Delhi". The "Cause of Shahadat" was "Neptrrotic Syndrome/ARI" (a reference to nephrotic syndrome and acute respiratory infection).

Sir Ganga Ram Hospital is empanelled with the Pakistan High Commission, and "Zulfiqar came as one of the beneficiaries," said a hospital source. It is not clear who claimed the body, or whether last rites were performed in India.

When contacted by The Indian Express, Shah Zaman Khan, Minister (Press) at the Pakistan High Commission, said they were ascertaining all facts. "I am to get information on the issue," Khan said.

Meanwhile, the official website of the Pakistan Army (www.pakistanarmy.gov.pk) remained offline for most of Tuesday, with a one-line announcement blaming "technical reasons" across the blank white screen.

When it came back online in the evening, the site was slow, and the record of Zulfiqar Ahmed was missing from the database of 'martyrs'. Also missing from the database at the Shuhada's Corner were the names and 'martyrdom' details of all soldiers whose unit had been earlier listed as 'ISI'. While researching the story on Ahmed on Monday evening, The Indian Express had found 25 ISI men in the database of dead soldiers. Till late Tuesday evening, there had been no official reaction from Pakistan.

Source: The Indian Express

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Pratyush » 15 Dec 2010 16:20

Where will the additional funds come from. Jazia from the west of by reducing the development expinditure??

Pakistan Army seeks $525 mn additional funds

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby anupmisra » 15 Dec 2010 16:33

sanjaykumar wrote:Pakistan exists for schadenfreude... And India needs to establish a poison pill doctrine of its own...enunciate an analogous intention to launch a strike on what is most valuable to Pakistanis' culture.


Hmmm...thought-provoking observations. Schadenfreude: Pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others .

What kind of a poison pill doctrine would you consider (or advise) India to adopt that would launch a "strike on paki culture" (and I guess by this you mean, the paki culture of threatening self destruction for a short-term geo-strategic pleasure?)?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Pratyush » 15 Dec 2010 16:36

The sweetest poison pill I can think of would be bolliwood with the Bikini bimbets that pass for herowines. :P

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Lalmohan » 15 Dec 2010 17:13

you mean expose their mijjile maalish khullam khulla?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Pratyush » 15 Dec 2010 17:25

yes..............

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby A_Gupta » 15 Dec 2010 17:33

David Rohde, the NYT reporter who was kidnapped and held by the Taliban for several months before he escaped, has written a book; and in connection with the book, he was on National Public Radio this morning. There he said (paraphrasing) that the key issue with getting Pakistan to pursue the Taliban and sundry extremists is India - Pakistan fears encirclement; but the US has a confused policy and doesn't bracket India with Pakistan.

One thing nobody mentions, by the way, is what the Afghans might want. E.g., apart from the Taliban, most Afghans might welcome Indian involvement with their country.

Second thing is as Rangudu mentions - ejection of India from Afghanistan is not enough for the Pakistani Army; they do not say what it will take for them to go after Haqqani, etc.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Lalmohan » 15 Dec 2010 17:37

so pakistanis now have an inarticulate fear of india
basically the bogeyman for all its worries
which means that the fear will never go away despite any manner of sops
because the fear is of fear itself and the fear of the meaning of pakistan
time to pull the plug on the 'state of pakistan'

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Arjun » 15 Dec 2010 18:01

A_Gupta wrote:David Rohde, the NYT reporter who was kidnapped and held by the Taliban for several months before he escaped, has written a book; and in connection with the book, he was on National Public Radio this morning. There he said (paraphrasing) that the key issue with getting Pakistan to pursue the Taliban and sundry extremists is India - Pakistan fears encirclement; but the US has a confused policy and doesn't bracket India with Pakistan.

Time to start getting aggressive with the idiots who are coming up with this absurd rationalization ! David Rhode must be suffering from Stockhom syndrome - his argument is just hilarious. If the only folks in Afghanistan who support Pakistan is the Taliban - WTF does that have to do with India? Is it India's fault that Afghans hate them? Who in the whole world wants to have anything to do with Pakis ?...so whose fault is that now? The guys who push this stupid line need to be hoisted on their own petard...


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