Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2010

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by SSridhar »

Some Indian voices on the upcoming Thimphu talks
Sagarika Ghose
Senior Editor, CNN-IBN
* The Indian foreign secretary has said that dialogue is the most intelligent means of pursuing Indian interests in Pakistan. At Thimphu, there seems little doubt that the revelations on the Samjhauta blast probe will be brought into focus. If equivalence is drawn between Mumbai 26/11 and the Samjhauta blast of 18 February 2007, the Indian side must take a step forward and show demonstrable openness about the Samjhauta blast probe. It should assertthat those who have committed criminal acts of mass murder will be dealt with no other considerations but the provisions of the penal code. The Indian state will view every act of terrorism whether domestic or cross-border as acts of criminality in the same way. To delve into the semantics of scale and provenance of Samjhauta versus 26/11, or the definitional quagmire of “cross border”and “homegrown,”is counter-productive and would be an instance of diplomatic attrition. Instead, a common assertion of the rule of law and a commitment not to politicise terrorism would be valuable.
* The domestic rhetoric and the enemy images are a product of mutual ignorance. On our channel, we have established that “differences of opinion” are distinct from enmities and television debates are not about demonstrations of hostile nationalistic fervour but about serious differences in which issues are perceived.Indians and Pakistanis must not be afraid to criticise their own country in front of each other honestly and admit to pre-conceived notions. A new generation of Indians and Pakistanis perhaps do not carry the baggage of the past. They must be allowed tovisit each other’s countries and enjoy a climate of exchange of cultural products—books, music, fashion, art and films. There is no substitute for people-to-people contacts. Still, a Pakistani grand gesture on 26/11 would go a long way in assuaging tempers here. I also feel a more youthful representation in our Chaopharaya Dialogue would generate many new ideas to create change in our mentalities. The Twitter and Facebook-powered youth of Egypt and Tunisia have shown they can create a revolution: we seem to be missing out in harnessing the power of the “green”generation to take the India-Pakistan project forward.
Raja Menon
Former Assistant Chief of Naval Staff
* My impression is that what the military called “staff work”is deeply deficient prior to South Asian EAM’s meetings. It is impossible for two diplomatic establishments to permit their EAMs to meet when they have not worked out any prior list of minimum agreements. It is also impossible to imagine that there is no minimum agreed upon lists that cannot be put together by a determined staff that would at least save
face for the two ministers and the two countries. (This is) downright diplomatic incompetence.
* There is only one relationship that actually continues no matter how bad the crisis, which is the trading relationship. If it is going on why not talk about it? Why pretend we don’t have a booming trade relationship through Dubai. Is the Pakistani establishment involved in diverting trade through Dubai to make a clandestine profit?
* Frankly, I think we have to address the vernacular press, which is the main cause of the problem.
Gopalaswami Parthasarathy
Former Indian Ambassador
* Thimpu can be regarded as a success if rhetoric is avoided and an agreement is reached on resuming dialogue at a political level. Experience has shown that long joint press conferences after meetings end in disaster and should be avoided.
* This talk of moving from crisis management to confidence building and resolving disputes has become a cliché, which is best discarded. We had, in our dialogue, achieved progress through the back channel talks and in meetings at the political level to resolve differences over J&K.
The leadership in both countries acknowledged this; huge progress was achieved in promoting CBMs in Jammu and Kashmir. An agreement was reached on our respective nuclear arsenals being a factor for stability; new facilities were agreed on to promote people to people contacts. What more could one have asked for?
The most important thing is that successor governments should stand by understandings reached and commitments made by their predecessors. General Zia-ul-Haq wanted the Simla Agreement to be junked. General Kayani evidently wants the policies and initiatives of General Musharraf on Jammu and Kashmir junked. Responsible sovereign governments do not function in this manner. Finally, both countries have to ensure that non-state actors promoting terrorism with or without State support are put behind bars. Making various excuses on why this cannot be done is a sure way to ensure that the dialogue is derailed.
* The only way forward on this score is to ensure that non-state actors with or without state support cease to destabilize the relationship. Moreover, we have to ensure that we celebrate our successes together, promote economic cooperation that facilitates each other’s progress and stop gloating about the discomfiture or dilemmas of the other side.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by CRamS »

With most Indian voices so softened up as a result of TSP's relentless terror, so much so that even GP doesn't mention Mumbai and does some equal equal, and with TSP rhetoric heating up as though it is victorius (in a way it probably is), and all talk is about India giving and TSP demanding, I wonder which is the failed or failing state here, TSP or India :-)?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by shiv »

There is definitely something odd about the way GoI chooses to talk to "Pakistan".

Either the GoI does not know what it is doing - or at least there is a deliberate forced stupidity in the Indian government's attitude to Pakistan, or they are putting up a show for someone else's benefit. Not my benefit surely.

I will try an explain by example.

If we want to talk to the US - why is it that talk to the US Ambassador, or to the US secretary of state, or even the US President? Why don't we pick - say Sarah Palin or the sexy Maddox broad? Do we speak to those specific people in the US because the WiKi page says that they run the country, or because they really really run the country?

Every country we speak to or negotiate with has a government in control - either via democratic election, or via coercion/tradition - like Myanmar or KSA or China.

Do we negotiate with Somalia? Why not negotiate with Somalia and ask them to get their pirates under control? The reason - as any moron who wastes his time reading this will tell me is because Somaila has no controlling government.

Really? So when we negotiate with Pakistan the nincompoops whom we negotiate with are in "control" of Pakistan? They are "democratically elected"? They are exerting dictatorial control over all of Pakistan? My phucking foot. Numbskull Zardari and boob squeezer Gilani hardly control anything. Even their diks are not under control. So what about Kiyani? Is he in control? Balls. His control does not extend beyond Islamabad and Rawalpindi. He hardly controls Waziristan or Baluchistan. He has less control than Musharraf because he has to do a downhill ski every day and tell his troops that they are fighting India and India alone - even as those troops are attacked by people for killing people in Lal Masjid and Waziristan and Baluchistan. By talking to Kiyani we are talking to a man who has a gun pointed at his head. So who's left. Nobody.

Pakistan and Somalia are similar. But when it comes to Pakistan it appears that the GoI reads Wikipedia and decided to negotiate with whoever Wikipedia names as the "Government of Pakistan". Talk about having one's head buried underground. :roll:

Or else India is talking to Pakistan because "Western powers" (read USA) feels nervous about India and wants to see India "negotiating" with the oiseaules whom the US itself does not negotiate with.

How stupid can the Indian government choose to appear?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Vikas »

I think with all these noises about " Hindu Terrorism", Kangress govt is trying to get out of the twist about for not anything about 26/11.
See since we are not able to pin "Hindu extremists" down, so Pakis are justified in not moving ahead on punishing anyone related to Mumbai attack. All is well and balanced now. Now lets go back to Track-2 and chai paani till next terrorist attack in India.

Not for nothing, Digvijay Singh started his howl related to "Saffron terror" and Karkare calling him on that fateful day. There was a method to this madness. It is just that we try to find any chanikianess in everything. The fact that most of GoI and its babus have no idea what to do with TSP scares me to death. We are confronted with a small dog inside our house and we don't know how to make it shut up or stop biting us without offending the watchers.
That we are not militarily powerful enough and that economy has started doing well adds to the coundrum. Who in govt wants to stop the party. Not the Indian politicians atleast.
I feel MMS is facing what is called as Sanjay Majeraker problem. Sanjay Manjarekar was hailed as technically the best thing after SMG so much so that Manjeraker could never shrug this high pedestal resulting in his fall as Batsman. MMS similarly cannot think beyond economy since that is his only game to fame hence everything takes back stage when it comes between economy and anything else.
Does that mean he cares less about punishing pakistan....Nope as long as he gets to get pat on his back for economy.
Don't know who are we trying to impress or what are we trying to avoid by talking with Pakistan. No voter in India gives a Fu(K if Govt maintains barest minimum contact with TSP. No more than what we have with say Nauru.

Yes I don't think there will be any solution to K&K in our lifetime and we will be talking about it with whatever would be left of Pakistan in few decades from now but we still will be talking.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Vikas »

Shiv Ji, Even if there was a de-jure and de-facto Govt in TSP, Question is Why is Govt of India talking to anyone in Pakistan? Haven't we learnt our lessons since the days of Jinnah and Bhutto.
Do we talk about weather and coming world cup?
Seriously what do babus and Minsters mean when they say that we need to talk to Pakistan.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Raja Ram »

shivji,

That is why it is important to debunk the Twin Myths - like a broken record let me repeat it here once again for everyone's convenience

1. A stable, democratic, peaceful and united Pakistan is in India's interest
2. There is no alternative but to talk and settle with Pakistan

It is on these myths on which the nefarious plans by distant powers are being built and sold to common Indians as the magnificient emergence of India. As you state here, there is no reason to talk to Pakistan right now as there is no one really controlling the artificial entity anymore. They have crossed a rubicon, now whether it was crossed during Lal Masjid as you say or during the assasination of the Punjab Governor can be debated. One can even view that the rubicon was crossed by this entity on that fateful September day of 9/11.

As I have tried to reason earlier in this thread, there is no reason or logic for the GOI to do this. The leadership will not gain anything electorally - this is the most cynical view that one can take and even taking this into consideration it does not make sense.

So what really is driving this urgent drive to resume talks? There was no need for it in S-e-S and there is no need for it in Thimpu. Why is their secrecy and why are we seeing the US officials here? I have been trying to ferret out these answers here.

One can easily dismiss my analysis as just an hypothesis. Fine. At least I have an explanation and that points to the current leadership duo of MMS and Ms. Sonia Gandhi. Even if we do not take an extreme view that they are essentially traitors and are out to sell out India, there is enough evidence to show that the leadership has come to the conclusion that for India to progress and achieve economic super power status, they need to get rid of this problem that Pakistan poses. They may genuinely believe in the Twin Myths.

Whatever be the motivation, or even if there isn't any motivation along these lines, for their sheer incompetence in dealing with this situation they are dangerous to the Indian state. India cannot afford to commit such strategic mistakes at this point of inflexion.

To do something to purely facilitate another power's plans, even if it is detrimental to national interests of India, in the vain hope of some sort of acceptance as a great economic power into global clubs controlled by such powers is not statecraft or statesmanship. It is being plain stupid.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Vikas »

Pakistanis pursue their fav. past time
A 14-year-old girl was killed in Vehari on Wednesday night allegedly by his family for refusing to marry a man they proposed.

he police said Hussain and his brothers – former nazim Muhammad Ramzaan and Farasat Hussain – killed the girl by giving her electric shocks.

SHO Mirza Asif Baig said that Mukhtar Hussain had admitted to killing his daughter. He said Hussain wanted to marry the girl to his 52-year-old cousin, Saeed Ahmed. Hussain told the police his cousin was married but had no son. He said they had registered a case against Hussain and his brother.

he victim’s mother, nominally the complainant, told The Express Tribune that she did not want her husband to be jailed. “My daughter was a disgrace to the family. We can’t tolerate our children disrespecting their elders’ wishes so we killed her,” Mukhtar Mai said, “why would I want my husband to be punished? He did the right thing.”
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by archan »

shiv wrote: Either the GoI does not know what it is doing - or at least there is a deliberate forced stupidity in the Indian government's attitude to Pakistan
I used to be a "fence sitter" if you may, or a "neutral observer".... well I tried to - at least. However, looking at their attitude I am getting more and more convinced that it is deliberate. Unfortunate.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by jrjrao »

FWIW. Next, we should expect a 1000,000 Abdul march to the Mall in Lahore, where each Paki is pointing a loaded gun to his own head, bellowing - "Raymond ko milegi phansi, nahi toh mujhe milegi goli".

Pakistani woman attempts suicide after US shooting
LAHORE, Pakistan -- A doctor says the wife of one of the Pakistani men allegedly shot and killed by an American official has tried to commit suicide by eating rat poison.

Ali Naqi, a doctor in Faisalabad city treating Shumaila Kanwal, said she told him she took the poison Sunday because she believes her husband's suspected killer will be freed without trial. Her condition is deteriorating.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by shiv »

jrjrao wrote:FWIW. Next, we should expect a 1000,000 Abdul march to the Mall in Lahore, where each Paki is pointing a loaded gun to his own head, bellowing - "Raymond ko milegi phansi, nahi to mujhe milegi goli".

Pakistani woman attempts suicide after US shooting
LAHORE, Pakistan -- A doctor says the wife of one of the Pakistani men allegedly shot and killed by an American official has tried to commit suicide by eating rat poison.

Ali Naqi, a doctor in Faisalabad city treating Shumaila Kanwal, said she told him she took the poison Sunday because she believes her husband's suspected killer will be freed without trial. Her condition is deteriorating.
:lol:

I bet ISI just stuck a funnel in the woman's mouth and poured rat poison in. The woman is alive because of made in China rat poison.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Anindya »

That is why it is important to debunk the Twin Myths - like a broken record let me repeat it here once again for everyone's convenience

1. A stable, democratic, peaceful and united Pakistan is in India's interest
2. There is no alternative but to talk and settle with Pakistan
Every single external-affairs journalist or Indian strategic analyst that I have ever spoken to understands this. The limited number of such people, that I know, do agree in private, about this - but are nervous about making this point in TV shows or their own articles in key publications.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Brad Goodman »

SSridhar wrote:
jamwal wrote:What is sachi sawitri ? If she can't be sachi , it means she is jhoothi .
Clearly, 'Sati Savitri' was misspelled by the writer. But, the Pakis are unable to shrug away their Bharti influence even after generations. That's the point.
I have a feeling that we are trying to blow things out of proportion here. Just because they say "dharti" and "sati savitri" we feel their indic pasts are alive. Then what about when our mango teens say "knock on wood" or "cross my fingers" which past influence are we digging out roman or greek. Hell when I was growing up and was a big fan of Azaruddin I was so taken by his taveez that I bought myself a taveez filled it with ash from a sacred temple got a black cloth and stiched it out and put it as locket in my neck (especially when I was playing) even my friends used to borrow it when they went batting. Does that mean we were getting influenced by our islamic past? Point I want to make here is people follow which ever culture that is hip and trendy. Currently we all follow western culture because we perceive western culture to be successful and hence worthy of emulation. Same with pakis all they do after their daily burning of amreeekan flags and praising qadri rallies is to come home and watch either "hi-Fi" (like this salman khan name instead of bollywood) movies or balaji teleserials. So some of those words and actions have stuck in their heads. But these are very superficial see their actions in whole and you will realize they are so far away from indic culture that even a martian might seem closer to indic ciulture than these animals (sorry no disrespect meant to animals)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by A_Gupta »

The only reason to talk to Pakistan would be if such talk helped in Pakistan's downward slide.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Brad Goodman »

In electoral democracy (especially Indian one) everything is finally tied to votes. If you look at talks with pakis from GOI perspective. What will constitute success for kangress. I think the baseline would be. If there is no mumbai style attack inside India then GOI will take it as success. A small Varanasi or Pune with single digit casulties is a mre blip of radar and can be easily brushed under the carpet. They are building up vote bank and if South Block gets hit in friendly fire from N Block and Congress High Command then thats acceptable to maharani, yuvraj and stooges. If pakis enjoying these fireworks from across wagah and participate in it with their own statements like one we saw yesterday, it does not mean anything to kangress or to general masses. Except for this forum and perhaps few educated middle class elites no one is going to feel enraged by the statements made by paki foreign office. No one cares about Timphu nothing substantial is ever going to come from there (like always) its all hot air by media to raise the expectations to get TRP's. As G Parthasarthy pointed out resumption of composite dialog and some lip service to samjhauta & mumbai will be taken as success. Pakis have bigger mess at hand where RAPES are more worried about some one doing a qadri on them at their homes ( as pointed by taseers son in law) than to progress in talks. TSPA is also occupied resisiting pressure from Unkil to get into NW. Kangress is preparing gounds to hand indian empire to yuvi. So Thimpu is non event right from start we should chill over those paki statement as even with or without them pakis are not going to do anything about mumbai trial.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Suppiah »

A_Gupta wrote:The only reason to talk to Pakistan would be if such talk helped in Pakistan's downward slide.
Who knows, with the ever expanding definition of wajib-ul-cuttle, talking to India may also get added to the list...
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Suppiah »

aditya wrote:
We need to be more accepting of the fact that not everyone thinks like us. Regards.
Who said we don't accept this fact? Besides who is "us"? Clearly, you don't agree with me even though we are on the same forum. :mrgreen:

We very much accept the fact that some people are amenable to compromising with terrorists, whether out of political compulsions or sheer ideological foolishness. And we try to change that.
The issue here is not whether someone is nice to his mother and helps the blind cross the street...perhaps Stalin, Prakash Karat, Pol Pot and other Marxist luminaries and closet commies and their media puppets and songbirds are 'nice people' if such definition is used. Issue is what sort of respect do they show to people that they do not agree with. Their intellectual arrogance is matched and often exceeded by their lack of integrity and commitment to truth.

Selling your soul to rapist goons, mass murderers and becoming their yellow propaganda puppet requires that you show utter disregard for other people's opinions if they don't agree with you and use all sorts of tricks, lies and false propaganda to denigrate and destroy them using all means. 'Destroy' here includes physical means, unless as some rapist goon traitors lament, they are constrained by the 'system'. It also requires free use of words such as pogrom, fascists and the like and yet keeping quiet about mass murders and other atrocities committed by your own fellow travelers and overseas paymasters.

In fact these puppets' cover up and camoflauge of the evil deeds of those they speak for is so extensive their own hands are drenched in blood.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by RajeshA »

archan wrote:
shiv wrote: Either the GoI does not know what it is doing - or at least there is a deliberate forced stupidity in the Indian government's attitude to Pakistan
I used to be a "fence sitter" if you may, or a "neutral observer".... well I tried to - at least. However, looking at their attitude I am getting more and more convinced that it is deliberate. Unfortunate.
archan ji,
Same feeling here!
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Brad Goodman »

Extremists have easy time infiltrating Pakistan security services
Zahid Manzoor Bajwa wasn't exactly cop material.

When police in the city of Lahore raided his house and those of associates in 2003, they found hand grenades, timers and loaded pistols. Asked about their arsenal, Bajwa and his friends acknowledged that they were planning to kidnap the son of a wealthy steel mill owner so they could buy enough explosives to kill foreigners.

Somehow, Bajwa's two-year stint behind bars went unnoticed by security officials in Punjab province. In 2009, they made him computer section chief for the Punjab police's intelligence wing, a post that gave him access to investigations and special reports on militant groups, surveillance directives, even security arrangements for VIPs.

Investigators now believe Bajwa downloaded secret data onto a flash drive and relayed it to the Pakistani Taliban, the insurgent group responsible for waves of suicide bombings across the country, said a Punjab security official who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak on such matters.
In 2008, Pakistani Taliban militants kidnapped Noor Jehan, a member of the Frontier Constabulary, from a tribal area town, said a Pakistani security official who asked not to be named because he was not authorized to discuss the case. Militants held him for 25 days, working on him daily and eventually persuading him to switch sides.

After his release, Jehan was assigned to Islamabad, the capital, where his deployments included the Jordanian and Egyptian embassies and the office of the United Nations' World Food Program.

Jehan told Taliban leaders that their next target should be the WFP office and explained how the bombing should be done: The bomber should dress in a Frontier Constabulary uniform and ask a guard at the gate for permission to use the bathroom. "In this way, he could get inside," said the Pakistani security official.

On Oct. 5, 2009, that's what the bomber did. Five WFP employees were killed.
Jehan enlisted a second constabulary officer, Rehmat Gul, to help with another plot, to kill a sister of President Asif Ali Zardari, the Pakistani security official said.

The Taliban supplied the pair with a 14-year-old boy to serve as the suicide bomber. On Dec. 1, 2009, the night before the attempt, Jehan and Gul showed the boy the house to target. The next day, the boy became confused about where to position himself. Standing near the entrance to Pakistan's navy headquarters, he was called over by guards there.
When they became suspicious and asked him to remove his coat, he detonated his explosives. Two naval security guards died in the blast.
The take away from article seems nex time a uniformed abdul is caught with his pant down that does not mean he is a state actor. May be they are right or may be entire state machinery has turned jihadi lets see how west looks at it half glass full or half glass empty
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Brad Goodman »

Hindu man gunned down in Pak
ISLAMABAD: A Hindu man was shot dead by unidentified gunmen in Quetta city of southwest Pakistan today, police said.

The gunmen, who were in a car, fired indiscriminately at the man, identified as Rajesh Kumar.

The attackers fled after gunning him down, police officials said.

No group claimed responsibility for the killing. The motive behind the killing could not immediately be ascertained.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by sum »

With most Indian voices so softened up as a result of TSP's relentless terror, so much so that even GP doesn't mention Mumbai and does some equal equal, and with TSP rhetoric heating up as though it is victorius
GP and Kanwal Sibal were going hammer and tongs at GoI just 10 minutes ago in "Headlines Today" ( HT) channel discussion.

The word used the maximum times was "massive self goal" regarding the "Hindu terror" bogey created by INC and used by Pak . Another sentence which both repeated time and again was "current GoI seems hesitant to even nominally confront Pakis unlike any previous GoIs".

Sad times indeed :(
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by AdityaM »

A warped psyche 64 yrs in the making
Image

note the special mentioning of Junagad & Manavadar
were the northern areas sliced off immediately after partition as in the map above?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by asprinzl »

Interesting video clips posted by Doc Shiv. I find Yahya Khan's demeanor is almost like Mafioso thugs-very dismissive of other peoples' words. Very thuggish as in "I am right and I am always right because I was right yesterday and tomorrow you will find me right also".
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Anujan »

SSridhar wrote:Whilst that is all well and good, one would like to remind the president that no public prosecutor is willing to take up the case and the one who was appointed is not fulfilling his duty because he has not been provided with security. {Why has he not been provided with security ? Possibly, no security personnel is willing to be assigned to the task of protecting the public prosecutor who is going to prosecute a ghazi.}
SSridhar-ji, probably the public prosecutor does *not* want security personnel to protect him while prosecuting the ghazi. :mrgreen:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by A_Gupta »

Apparently India's approach to the talks is
- either start with less contentious issues, and if there is progress on those, advance to more contentious issues (Siachen, Kashmir, etc.)
- or else, start with talking about terrorism.

I think neither approach will work with Pakistan. Any agreement on improvement of trade or more journalism contacts will bring about the immediate "Kashmir betrayed" extremists out of the woodwork in Pakistan. Any talks on the contentious issues requires the Pakistanis to display their maximalist position. Us poor SDREs will be later advised that the tough talk is just a negotiating ploy and that we should not take all that seriously, and SDREs are, as always, at fault for sabotaging the negotiations. But the maximalist position will stymie the Wagah KKs.

As Suppiah mentions, there is increased danger these days in showing moderation towards India.

The real danger for India in any negotiation with Pakistan that India encounters a reasonable Pakistani who is able to maintain his/her backing in Pakistan.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by RamaY »

shiv wrote:There is definitely something odd about the way GoI chooses to talk to "Pakistan".

Either the GoI does not know what it is doing - or at least there is a deliberate forced stupidity in the Indian government's attitude to Pakistan, or they are putting up a show for someone else's benefit. Not my benefit surely.
...
Really? So when we negotiate with Pakistan the nincompoops whom we negotiate with are in "control" of Pakistan? They are "democratically elected"? They are exerting dictatorial control over all of Pakistan? My phucking foot. Numbskull Zardari and boob squeezer Gilani hardly control anything. Even their diks are not under control. So what about Kiyani? Is he in control? Balls. His control does not extend beyond Islamabad and Rawalpindi. He hardly controls Waziristan or Baluchistan. He has less control than Musharraf because he has to do a downhill ski every day and tell his troops that they are fighting India and India alone - even as those troops are attacked by people for killing people in Lal Masjid and Waziristan and Baluchistan. By talking to Kiyani we are talking to a man who has a gun pointed at his head. So who's left. Nobody.
GOI actually MMS Admin not only want to talk to Pakistan; but is also giving severe concessions to Pakistan which will become heaps of sh*t in any future GOI action plan on Pakistan.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by RamaY »

CRamS wrote: The fault my dear is closer to home. Who put MMS in power? Who believes that MMS actually represents them and is this great "intellectual" economist. You guessed it, the billion Indians. And they don't seem to care two hoots for all the corruption, the mafia rule, the sell out to Pakis and their puppets in the valley, the groping before London & Washington. They are euphoric with 9% growth and slum dog Oscars.
This is not correct. MMS was "selected" as PM of India by Sonia Gandhi, who was "elected" as INC parliamentary party leader in the parliament.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by pgbhat »

His fourth coujin has all but disappeared from peeareff. :(

edit: just saw his post. :mrgreen:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by CRamS »

Raja Ram/Shiv/SS et. al,

Here is another pluasible theory? As much as Uneven is snake oil salesman and slime ball, neverthless, he does have the pulse on US policy. He once told one Pakistan Express (IE) dorkette with no riposte from her, I believe her name is Jyothi Malhotra, that no Indian leader can afford to see a few Indian cities go up in smoke. It was almost as if he was issuing a threat to India on behalf of TSP, and was making the case for India to make up with TSP.

Assuming this is US policy, is this a plausible theory? Basically, US has told India, look, you guys can continue to ignore TSP and can continue to prosper, we accept that. But our TSP boys need some concessions from you. We don't see any essential difference between you and TSPians, both can be our "friends" (read slaves), and we do NOT accept your claim over Kashmir, and hence we see justification in TSP strategy against you. So as much as you have a right to ignore TSP, we accept that TSP has right in getting your attention though whatever means. If you don't make concessions to them, and TSP resorts to the nuke option, you have only yourselves to blame. In other words, basically US is telling India that if it can stop TSP from using nukes, but it won't as it wants to see a strong TSP in place and this can only happen if India yields to TSP's demands for etch-and-dee (visible concessions on Kashmir to claim victory). Of course, along with this, the usual carrots, nuke deal, economic investments, bla bla.

So my question is, how does an Indian govt confront this situation it finds itself in. Basically US endorsing TSP barbarity against India and told that should war break out, US will be on TSP side even if it chooses the nuke option.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by svinayak »

Pakistan has to give up Pakistan
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by nachiket »

pgbhat wrote:
His fourth coujin has all but disappeared from peeareff. :(

edit: just saw his post. :mrgreen:
Which thread?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

India, Pakistan agree to carry forward dialogue

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 162366.ece
Putting behind the bitter experience of last July, India and Pakistan on Sunday night appeared to have made a headway in bringing on track the stalled dialogue process as they agreed to carry it forward to resolve all outstanding issues in a constructive and forward-looking manner.

...

A common press statement issued by both sides said that the two Foreign Secretaries had met in pursuance of the mandate given by their Prime Ministers following their meeting in Thimphu in April 2010 and the meeting of the Foreign Ministers in July last year in Islamabad and carry that process forward.

...

Sources said Ms. Rao and Mr. Bashir, who held an informal meeting on Saturday night in the run up to Sunday night’s talks, had agreed that the dialogue process should be carried forward in a forward-looking manner.

At the meeting, the Indian side maintained that it was open to discussing all issues in a conducive atmosphere, they said.

...
By "forward-looking" they mean that 26/11 is history, let us not discuss it anymore.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Man hurls shoe at former Pakistani President Musharraf

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 439579.cms
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

India, Pak make cautious start

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-Pak ... 59323.aspx
While India has shown flexibility in walking half-way to discuss the issues covered in the composite dialogue that was suspended after the 26/11 attacks in Mumbai, it doesn’t want to give a name to the dialogue process.

India’s nine-point agenda includes a discussion on cross-border confidence measures — proposals for more buses and trains, making forward movement on humanitarian issues, cultural interactions and meetings of the commerce secretaries.

Though many of these topics constituted the composite dialogue, India doesn’t want the dialogue process to be called composite at the moment.
*sigh* onlee, they think we are retarded.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by CRamS »

abhishek_sharma wrote: By "forward-looking" they mean that 26/11 is history, let us not discuss it anymore.
Absolutely, no doubt about that. And in return, India gets temporary respite as TSP cashes its terror cheque in slow motion. Hack thooo!!! "Super power" onlee.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by partha »

Rape attempt at Punjab University hostel
Amin while speaking with The Express Tribune said that the student had most likely had a nightmare.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by A_Gupta »

On 10% acquiring a partner.
See the comments, too.
http://cafepyala.blogspot.com/2011/02/w ... erved.html
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

No breakthrough in India-Pakistan talks

http://www.dawn.com/2011/02/06/india-pa ... hutan.html
The foreign secretaries of India and Pakistan have met in the Bhutanese capital, but failed to set any dates for the resumption of peace talks between the neighbours.

...

The two sides had been expected to firm up the dates for a proposed meeting between their foreign ministers in the Indian capital.

Vishnu Prakash, the Indian external affairs ministry spokesman, said that India’s foreign secretary, Nirupama Rao, and her Pakistani counterpart Salman Bashir met Sunday for ”useful and frank discussions.”
It appears that Pakis are unhappy. I like it.

By "frank discussion" they mean both sides just reiterated what they have been saying for 60+ years. India talked about terrorism and Pakis about J&K.

I do not understand why they included that "forward-looking" term. Let us wait for the full statement. It is not available on the MEA site yet.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

India, Pakistan to take dialogue process forward

http://www.hindu.com/2011/02/07/stories ... 881200.htm

No timeline: India

Pakistan, as was the case last time, insisted on resuming the composite dialogue, while India said it is not shy of discussing outstanding issues. However, New Delhi felt that instead of taking up all issues, both sides should select only some on which agreements could be reached. There should not be any time line, said India, in response to Pakistan's desire for a result oriented approach.
Good. I like this approach.
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