China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby chackojoseph » 09 Aug 2011 09:05

This is not directly commected to the military, but, allegdly, China has a habit of using civilian things for mil purpose too.

China only has 130 civilian helicopters. By comparison USA has 12,000, Canada 2,680, Australia 1,880 and New Zealand 791. Some observers say they are hoping to obtain 1,000 helicopters in three years.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 09 Aug 2011 09:17

ashi wrote:Let's get back to military and watch a J-10 dog fight short clip, shall we? I just love this bird.


What dog fight? None of the planes is carrying any missiles and none of them fires any guns. Is this a simulated dogfight? All agility shown is with clean wings. And J-10s flying in close diamond formation for the dogfight? Amazing.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Austin » 09 Aug 2011 09:29

ashi wrote:Let's get back to military and watch a J-10 dog fight short clip, shall we? I just love this bird.


Reminds me of Lavi but a very pretty looking aircraft , it seems to give the impression that it has F-16 style bubble canopy with the pilot seated high above to get a good all round view , the twin seater is more in Su-27UB Flanker style.

The MFD seems to be older type ( single colour ) and not the modern AMLCD type , any ways clean design good looks.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby P Chitkara » 09 Aug 2011 12:02

Other than TSP, what do people think are the chances of panda stationing their naval ships in Sri Lanka or B'desh in the next ten years?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Advait » 09 Aug 2011 12:35

Realistically speaking, very very high.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Philip » 09 Aug 2011 13:57

More than a few large heavy-lifters tilting the balance in China's favour on the Indo-Tibetan front,is the fact of the new high-speed railway network that is being created all over Chgina,especially the rail loink to Tibet.China recently in trial runs,transported large numbers of troops to Tibet according to some sources in an exercise.

The TOI (?) just a couple of days ago,in an article about the precarious health of the IAF,new COAS and the two crashes,has a feature about the on-going programmes of the IAF,acquisitions,etc.For the next 9 years at least we will not be able to fill the numbers gap that has emerged with respect to both China and Pak and the balance of air power between India and Pak has reached the stage where we have almost lost our advantage.MMRCAs even if ordered by this Dec. will only arrive to start with in 2014 and we still have several hundreds of obsolete MIG-21s in our inventory.Therefore,in order to restore some level of lost capability,the IAF should seriously think of acquiring more SU-30MKIs or evn more MIG-29/35s -of which we are upgrading 60+ for just under $1B,when compoared with the upgrades of M-2000s at $ 2.5B,as a cost-effective acquisition.These aircraft would be far superior to Pak's JF-17s and J-10s.These could be easily acquired as the IN is acquiring about 60+ MIG-29Ks quite rapidly.Since LCA MK-2 has yet to fly,and LCA MK-1 production is also quite low,acqiuiring cost-effective aircraft of MIG-29K/35s in addition to the MMRCAs is the most ideal method of keeping the IAFs capabilities from sinking so low as to invite agression from the Sino-Pak combine.Since we already operate these types,a decision could be immediately made.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 09 Aug 2011 20:25

P Chitkara wrote:Other than TSP, what do people think are the chances of panda stationing their naval ships in Sri Lanka or B'desh in the next ten years?


Unlikely. Sri Lanka and Bangladesh cannot migrate to Australia and have to continue to sit next to India. No matter how weak we indians imagine we are in our usual dhoti shivering view of ourselves - india is a mad giant next to BDesh and SL and neither would want to provoke Inia. Whether China gets punished or not BDesh and SL would suffer. Why do you think the US never got even a radio station in Sri Lanka?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby aditya.agd » 09 Aug 2011 21:09

China will smack India right under the dhoti. By the time our honest Defence Ministers realize, China will take away lungi too. :rotfl:

i hope better sense prevails and India prepares well for a 2 front war with TSP and China, the "all-weather" friends.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Ashutosh Malik » 09 Aug 2011 22:00

aditya.agd wrote:China will smack India right under the dhoti. By the time our honest Defence Ministers realize, China will take away lungi too. :rotfl:

i hope better sense prevails and India prepares well for a 2 front war with TSP and China, the "all-weather" friends.


Very instructive. I am sure the decision makers have taken the hint.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Thomas Kolarek » 09 Aug 2011 23:22

Lets look at history and learn on Chinese foresight.

Tibet - While US & Britain were busy post Korea war after WW2, China took over Tibet. Remember this started the problems for India right from claim of Arunachal Pradesh (Southern Tibet), all weather friendship between Pakistan & China (as they got common border with part of Kashmir Cession), and upcoming post US era Afghanistan (they have border with Afghanistan too due to Tibet) to dams over Brahmaputra.
Its really a bad leadership from our then leader (you know the name) - he could have got us into USSR or USA camp and saved our generations from all our troubles of today. He took useless NAM route and Panchsheel chinni-India bhai route, as if he is a Nobel Laurette and plagued all of India's problems.

India-China 1962 war - Again timing was when USSR & USA was in the peak of cold war era, no way they could have helped us with our stupid NAM policies in 1961. Again our so called leader's failure caused it by not giving attention to military build up post independence.

Now America in economic shambles and no way it can afford another war & no USSR and timing is right again for China with stupid leaders at our helm & with depleting IAF squadrons and avoid Pak collapsing. China just need 1 war victory to claim the super power status and am afraid we are still not ready.

One thing history teaches us again and again is placing stupid leaders at helm gives no hopes for the nation.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Nihat » 09 Aug 2011 23:52

Really people, whats with the "China is coming" dhoti shivering , which Franky as a theory has very flimsy grounds. PRC is a very pragmatic country and will make sure of a victory even before going to war, it is not irrational like their deeper then Ocean friends who conducted Kargil Op. on a rather callous ground.

Just because we are militarily in the middle of a huge transformation and are somewhat vulnerable to potentially "huge" Chinese forces does not mean that China will attack without any clear objective. Does anyone seriously think they will risk thousands of lives , billions of dollars and international reputation just to show who's the big daddy or try to grab territory which has no strategic value. PRC knows that things can become very very unpredictable once shooting match starts and there is no telling which way the tide turns. It is also well aware of the limits of the game of military brinksmanship that it can play and the repercussions is something goes out of hand.

Suppose Chinese do get aggressive and start a conventional war, then what ??. What if this pushes India into a permanent Naval alliance with USA , the Chinese have to think about that too. If they Isolate India too then PRC will be surrounded in it's own backyard for the next 50 yrs. with the likes of Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Taiwan, Australia and India all surrounding China in a ring of fire, not to mention US presence in the Gulf and in SCS.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Thomas Kolarek » 10 Aug 2011 00:04

When they occupied Tibet, was Tibet known to India the strategic value it offered us ? Why use Dhoti shivering term to shoot down today's realities. Lets learn from history and live in real by preparing our selves, rather than fooling ourselves that the threat is not real.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Nihat » 10 Aug 2011 00:09

Thomas Kolarek wrote:When they occupied Tibet, was Tibet known to India the strategic value it offered us ? Why use Dhoti shivering term to shoot down today's realities. Lets learn from history and live in real by preparing our selves, rather than fooling ourselves that the threat is not real.


What makes you think we are not preparing ourselves militarily (since this is military thread), besides mortgaging the nation itself.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Thomas Kolarek » 10 Aug 2011 00:26

Nihat wrote:
Thomas Kolarek wrote:When they occupied Tibet, was Tibet known to India the strategic value it offered us ? Why use Dhoti shivering term to shoot down today's realities. Lets learn from history and live in real by preparing our selves, rather than fooling ourselves that the threat is not real.


What makes you think we are not preparing ourselves militarily (since this is military thread), besides mortgaging the nation itself.


At what pace, that's the question ? Military can do only much when the original fund masters busy looting the country ruin it with bureaucracy on Indigenousation or acquisition. What mindset of losers strategic thinking, we have in our leaders of having left the NE barren without road, rail networks or air strips.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Nihat » 10 Aug 2011 01:37

NE is not as barren as you might think , this is not 1962 anymore. I wont comment on leadership and all that since this is not the right thread but as far as India's NE is concerned the Govt. is doing it's bit. We have 2000 Km +range Agni II deployed , not to mention MKI squadrons Army divisions and strategic roads are u/c as we speak. Also a few days back an article was posted wrt extending rail lines right till Tawang (which itself is heavily defended by IA). China cannot steam roll us by Air, Sea or Land , that much is for sure.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby DavidD » 10 Aug 2011 05:11

shiv wrote:
P Chitkara wrote:Other than TSP, what do people think are the chances of panda stationing their naval ships in Sri Lanka or B'desh in the next ten years?


Unlikely. Sri Lanka and Bangladesh cannot migrate to Australia and have to continue to sit next to India. No matter how weak we indians imagine we are in our usual dhoti shivering view of ourselves - india is a mad giant next to BDesh and SL and neither would want to provoke Inia. Whether China gets punished or not BDesh and SL would suffer. Why do you think the US never got even a radio station in Sri Lanka?


Yup, I agree. Too little to gain and too much to lose for all three of China, BD, and SL. I mean, the Chinese can't even secure the SCS yet, they need to take care of that first.


I don't have time to reply to some of the other interesting comments today, so I'll just leave with this piece of news:

The ex-Varyag has set sail for her first sea trial:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/c ... 039286.htm

I have a feeling that people will either blow this out of proportion or deride it for being insignificant, but it is what it is, just a sea trial of a training carrier. Rumor has it that the first domestic carrier will be launched next year, that'll be a much bigger news if it happens.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby rajrang » 10 Aug 2011 06:00

Thomas Kolarek wrote:When they occupied Tibet, was Tibet known to India the strategic value it offered us ? Why use Dhoti shivering term to shoot down today's realities. Lets learn from history and live in real by preparing our selves, rather than fooling ourselves that the threat is not real.


Agreed. Tibet was arguably the most important nation that would influence Indian security possibly for centuries - given that China was destined to become a super power within decades (given its large population) as we see unfolding today. The repercussions of the loss of Tibet have been well summarized by Thomas Kolarek in his posting above. Contrast this with the British view of Afghanistan in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Afghanistan was long seen as a potential source of threat to India. Not only the Afghans themselves were regarded to be a source of threat (example recent memories of Abdali of the 18th century), but the British were also worried about a Russian invasion of India through Afghanistan. Both worries, but especially the latter one would have been classified as "dhoti shivering" using the definitions prevailing in BR today. In fact the British did not limit themselves to simply worrying about it, they also acted on their worries, i.e. the 3 Afghan wars. Further the 3rd Afghan war was fought immediately after World War 1, when one would have thought that Britain would be exhausted, yet they were ready for a fight! It does not matter whether they "won" or "lost" the Afghan wars. The more important thing was that neither of the above two scenarios came to fruition, i.e. either the Afghans or the Russians invading India. In fact during the 200 odd years of British presense in India the direction of invasions through the Khyber pass was reversed, i.e. originating from India, compared to the previous 1000 years.

The "Russian invasion" worry of the British would also have been similar to India worrying about a Chinese invasion of India through Tibet in the 1950s. Even if Indian leaders worried about it at that time they took no effective actions. The actions could have been even diplomatic, for example, India joing the US camp and allowing the US to get the job done. Then, perhaps if BR and the internet had existed a 100 years back we would have convicted the British of "dhoti shivering." My intent is not to praise Britain and criticize India, I am trying to compare the attitudes to military threats of the two governments in Delhi, the British and the Indian in the last 150 years (back to back and not separated by centuries when the validity of comparison would be reduced) and looking for any strategic lessons that could be learnt. This is also a great opportunity for learning lessons since we are comparing India with Britain, a country that had a legendary reputation for dominating the world several times during the past centuries. The comparison is also useful because Britain was ruling from Delhi quite recently.

On balance, one could agrue that previous Muslim and Hindu rulers of Delhi usually did also not share the same outlook as the British. But then is that the reason India was invaded repeatedly starting with the Aryans, Alexander down to Abdali, TSP and China (1962)? Is there a lesson to be learnt from the strategic vision of the British government in Delhi/London? Sounds like a good Ph.D. thesis at a minimum?

Today the situation facing India is far more serious (in my view) than the British had ever had to worry about in India. There are half-million TSP soldiers on the west. There are military forces of the future superpower on the northern borders. India's army is guarding 24/7 thousands of miles of borders. Both have officially stated claims to thousands of square miles of Indian territory. Both have nuclear weapons. The one to the west is unstable and has attacked India several times in the last half a century, while the one to the north has tried to humiliate India in the past. Since 1947 the strategic threats to India have largely got worse (i.e. loss of Tibet, 1962, TSP's nuclear weapons) and occasionally got better (i.e. Bdesh war of 1971). I can hardly propose any solutions to this. Maybe others on BR if they agree with my assessment above can try. On a nostalgic note though, since 1947 perhaps Mrs Gandhi was the only leader who improved Indian security through the Bdesh war, something that was also backed by effective diplomacy.

Admins - If you believe that this belongs in the Managing Chinese Threat in the Strategic forum, kindly move it over there. I am not able to. Thanks

All - I think there is a potential for a new thread along the lines of Strategic lessons India can learn from the British. If someone wants to volunteer by all means. Unfortunately I will not have the time to do justice.

By the way what does OT mean?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby rajrang » 10 Aug 2011 07:07

rajrang wrote:
Thomas Kolarek wrote:When they occupied Tibet, was Tibet known to India the strategic value it offered us ? Why use Dhoti shivering term to shoot down today's realities. Lets learn from history and live in real by preparing our selves, rather than fooling ourselves that the threat is not real.


Agreed. Tibet was arguably the most important nation that would influence Indian security possibly for centuries - given that China was destined to become a super power within decades (given its large population) as we see unfolding today. The repercussions of the loss of Tibet have been well summarized by Thomas Kolarek in his posting above. Contrast this with the British view of Afghanistan in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Afghanistan was long seen as a potential source of threat to India. Not only the Afghans themselves were regarded to be a source of threat (example recent memories of Abdali of the 18th century), but the British were also worried about a Russian invasion of India through Afghanistan. Both worries, but especially the latter one would have been classified as "dhoti shivering" using the definitions prevailing in BR today. In fact the British did not limit themselves to simply worrying about it, they also acted on their worries, i.e. the 3 Afghan wars. Further the 3rd Afghan war was fought immediately after World War 1, when one would have thought that Britain would be exhausted, yet they were ready for a fight! It does not matter whether they "won" or "lost" the Afghan wars. The more important thing was that neither of the above two scenarios came to fruition, i.e. either the Afghans or the Russians invading India. In fact during the 200 odd years of British presense in India the direction of invasions through the Khyber pass was reversed, i.e. originating from India, compared to the previous 1000 years.

The "Russian invasion" worry of the British would also have been similar to India worrying about a Chinese invasion of India through Tibet in the 1950s. Even if Indian leaders worried about it at that time they took no effective actions. The actions could have been even diplomatic, for example, India joing the US camp and allowing the US to get the job done. Then, perhaps if BR and the internet had existed a 100 years back we would have convicted the British of "dhoti shivering." My intent is not to praise Britain and criticize India, I am trying to compare the attitudes to military threats of the two governments in Delhi, the British and the Indian in the last 150 years (back to back and not separated by centuries when the validity of comparison would be reduced) and looking for any strategic lessons that could be learnt. This is also a great opportunity for learning lessons since we are comparing India with Britain, a country that had a legendary reputation for dominating the world several times during the past centuries. The comparison is also useful because Britain was ruling from Delhi quite recently.

On balance, one could agrue that previous Muslim and Hindu rulers of Delhi usually did also not share the same outlook as the British. But then is that the reason India was invaded repeatedly starting with the Aryans, Alexander down to Abdali, TSP and China (1962)? Is there a lesson to be learnt from the strategic vision of the British government in Delhi/London? These thoughts are important given that India will be the third global (yes I mean it) player in this century, the other two being obvious. The 8% growth rate of India will force India into that role with a decade or two. Whether India likes it or not India will have to think like the US not a Belgium. Sounds like a good Ph.D. thesis at a minimum?

Today the situation facing India is far more serious (in my view) than the British had ever had to worry about in India. There are half-million TSP soldiers on the west. There are military forces of the future superpower on the northern borders. India's army is guarding 24/7 thousands of miles of borders. Both have officially stated claims to thousands of square miles of Indian territory. Both have nuclear weapons. The one to the west is unstable and has attacked India several times in the last half a century, while the one to the north has tried to humiliate India in the past. Since 1947 the strategic threats to India have largely got worse (i.e. loss of Tibet, 1962, TSP's nuclear weapons) and occasionally got better (i.e. Bdesh war of 1971). I can hardly propose any solutions to this. Maybe others on BR if they agree with my assessment above can try. On a nostalgic note though, since 1947 perhaps Mrs Gandhi was the only leader who improved Indian security through the Bdesh war, something that was also backed by effective diplomacy.

Admins - If you believe that this belongs in the Managing Chinese Threat in the Strategic forum, kindly move it over there. I am not able to. Thanks

All - I think there is a potential for a new thread along the lines of Strategic lessons India can learn from the British. If someone wants to volunteer by all means. Unfortunately I will not have the time to do justice.

By the way what does OT mean?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Nikhil T » 10 Aug 2011 07:13

Food for thought -

Joint Sino-Pak wargames, 25km from Indian border


JAISALMER: Pakistan and China have launched joint war games barely 25 km from the international border along Jaisalmer-Bikaner districts of Rajasthan.

The brigade-level military exercise by the People's Liberation Army's 101 Engineering regiment began last week and will continue for one month. Independent sources said this was the first time that Chinese troops were detected along India's western border.

According to information from intelligence sources, China is extending all possible help to Pakistan militarily. After assisting in oil and gas exploration in Pakistan, China is now working in close cooperation with it in India's western sector, providing Pakistan with tank upgrade technology and unmanned air vehicles (UAVs).

Officials contacted at the Army headquarters in New Delhi said they had "no specific information" about such an exercise. Another official said Pakistan Rangers conduct annual exercises but there was no information about the ongoing operations.

An intelligence source said the PLA's engineering battalion along with Pakistani soldiers are on an exercise on how to take out tanks and other heavy military vehicles from marshy areas, and how to make way for the infantry by constructing bridges.

The places where these operations are on are Suryaan and Chor, near Sem Nala in Rahimiyaar Khan in Pakistan, adjoining Tanot-Kishangarh area along Jaisalmer. There is an entire brigade of China for the military exercise there.

The source also said that the Chinese battalion along with Pakistan forces are practicing formations and operations along Bikaner district of Rajasthan. One officer, who refused to indentify himself since he is not authorized to speak, said the Chinese army along India's western border in Pakistan in the name of military exercise is "really surprising, and could prove strategically dangerous for India".

"China under the garb of military exercise has reached India's western border. This can't but be a matter of concern for us," he said.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby ShauryaT » 10 Aug 2011 07:52

Thomas Kolarek wrote:(they have border with Afghanistan too due to Tibet) to dams over Brahmaputra.
China's border with Afghanistan is from xinjiang and not Tibet.

India-China 1962 war - Again timing was when USSR & USA was in the peak of cold war era, no way they could have helped us with our stupid NAM policies in 1961. Again our so called leader's failure caused it by not giving attention to military build up post independence.

Now America in economic shambles and no way it can afford another war & no USSR and timing is right again for China with stupid leaders at our helm & with depleting IAF squadrons and avoid Pak collapsing. China just need 1 war victory to claim the super power status and am afraid we are still not ready.

One thing history teaches us again and again is placing stupid leaders at helm gives no hopes for the nation.
I will turn you over to Shiv to cure you of your dhoti shivers :mrgreen: Hang around, you will learn, as we all have.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby ShauryaT » 10 Aug 2011 07:56

DavidD wrote:I have a feeling that people will either blow this out of proportion or deride it for being insignificant, but it is what it is, just a sea trial of a training carrier. Rumor has it that the first domestic carrier will be launched next year, that'll be a much bigger news if it happens.
Do you have any reports on specifics of this indigenous carrier?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 10 Aug 2011 08:31

Thomas Kolarek wrote:Now America in economic shambles and no way it can afford another war & no USSR and timing is right again for China with stupid leaders at our helm & with depleting IAF squadrons and avoid Pak collapsing. China just need 1 war victory to claim the super power status and am afraid we are still not ready.

One thing history teaches us again and again is placing stupid leaders at helm gives no hopes for the nation.


Why does china need that war victory? US is gone. USSR is gone. India is weak. China is at the top. Why fight a war? China is not stupid like India.

Also - if US is #1
China is #2
India is # X

How stupid would China have to be to fight India and waste itself and become weaker in comparison with the US who is $1 but weak? Surely it needs to fight and defeat the US no? To become number 1 you have to defeat the person who is number 1. You get nothing by defeating the person who is number X

The biggest mistake we make on here is to imagine that everyone is as stupid as Indians.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby chackojoseph » 10 Aug 2011 08:40

They don't have a carrier, they don't have a plane to land on it and they don't have experience. Let them make what they want, it will be minimum 10 -15 years when we will see a small carrier capability from them. It has been 50 years, they still make leaky nuclear subs, a 4th gen plane etc. Their research projects are always research projects untill some other country steps in and finishes it for them.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby manum » 10 Aug 2011 10:27

We have seen height of irresponsible behaviour by them exporting nuclear wepons to Pakistan...

I hope it finds its way back to China....


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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby jai » 10 Aug 2011 16:00

manum wrote:We have seen height of irresponsible behaviour by them exporting nuclear wepons to Pakistan...

I hope it finds its way back to China....


History is full of examples of created monsters coming back to bite its creator - Taliban, LTTE etc etc, its a matter of time.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby anupmisra » 10 Aug 2011 17:02



And, Taiwan's response:

Taiwan hails missile as 'aircraft carrier killer'

Taiwan is hailing its most advanced missile as "an aircraft carrier killer" on the same day that China began sea trials of it first aircraft carrier. During the preview for a defense exhibition Wednesday, Taiwan brandished the indigenous Hsiung Feng III missile against the backdrop of a billboard depicting a missile-riddled aircraft carrier. The billboard bore the words: "Aircraft carrier killer."

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby nits » 10 Aug 2011 17:23

Some pics of the so called Carrier

Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Thomas Kolarek » 10 Aug 2011 18:27

The Whole idea is to prevent the X from even getting near #2. How they do it ? They do it in proxy way (in fact they do it in direct way now a days as they know our stupid leaders at helm are incompetent enough to even protest or take retaliatory measures) with another X (read Pak) & causing some minor skirmish along NE will panic us & will keep us pre-occupied, while they can help their all weather friend to treat lesson to their foe.
You think all the Tibet build up is for nothing ?

If they mess with #1 , #2 wont exists in the World map.

shiv wrote:
Thomas Kolarek wrote:Now America in economic shambles and no way it can afford another war & no USSR and timing is right again for China with stupid leaders at our helm & with depleting IAF squadrons and avoid Pak collapsing. China just need 1 war victory to claim the super power status and am afraid we are still not ready.

One thing history teaches us again and again is placing stupid leaders at helm gives no hopes for the nation.


Why does china need that war victory? US is gone. USSR is gone. India is weak. China is at the top. Why fight a war? China is not stupid like India.

Also - if US is #1
China is #2
India is # X

How stupid would China have to be to fight India and waste itself and become weaker in comparison with the US who is $1 but weak? Surely it needs to fight and defeat the US no? To become number 1 you have to defeat the person who is number 1. You get nothing by defeating the person who is number X

The biggest mistake we make on here is to imagine that everyone is as stupid as Indians.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 10 Aug 2011 19:30

Thomas Kolarek wrote:The Whole idea is to prevent the X from even getting near #2. How they do it ? They do it in proxy way (in fact they do it in direct way now a days as they know our stupid leaders at helm are incompetent enough to even protest or take retaliatory measures) with another X (read Pak) & causing some minor skirmish along NE will panic us & will keep us pre-occupied, while they can help their all weather friend to treat lesson to their foe.
You think all the Tibet build up is for nothing ?



This is news to me. You are saying the Chinese have a build up in Tibet? What sort of build up is that?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Thomas Kolarek » 10 Aug 2011 20:15

Tibetan Plateau now has Gormo-Lhasa railway link connecting all the 17 radar stations, 14 military airfields, 5 missile bases having 100's of Missiles pointing South and estimated 500000 PLA troops stationed right near the Indian Border. Do we call this Peace Flag rally ?
Even if you say, its for defending their borders, did India ever lay a claim on Tibet (as they do on their so called Southern Tibet (AP)) or did we ask China to give back Dalai Lama the throne ?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 10 Aug 2011 20:56

Thomas Kolarek wrote:Tibetan Plateau now has Gormo-Lhasa railway link connecting all the 17 radar stations, 14 military airfields, 5 missile bases having 100's of Missiles pointing South and estimated 500000 PLA troops stationed right near the Indian Border. Do we call this Peace Flag rally ?
Even if you say, its for defending their borders, did India ever lay a claim on Tibet (as they do on their so called Southern Tibet (AP)) or did we ask China to give back Dalai Lama the throne ?


Can you cite sources for this information? Lets say I am a stupid Indian and I don't believe it.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby ramana » 10 Aug 2011 21:21

Thomas can Tibet support 14 military airfields and 500K troops? I can see 17 radars stations as its mountainous and hence need more coverage but what are they looking at?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby KiranM » 10 Aug 2011 21:51

^^ To add to above;
1) the radar stations are not just for airspace surveillance, but also for their Air Traffic control in that mountainous region. I believe the latter is primary and the former secondary. In this era of SEAD and DEAD, mobile radar units are what ticks. Given the topography they will have lot of difficulties.
2) 500k troops are not frontline soldiers who will be carrying out the assault. 80-90% of it will be for logistics and combat support.
3) If we count the number of bases and airstrips we have active or being activated in a land mass of same size as Tibet opposite Tibet; it will be as dense if not more dense, than the 14 airfields in Tibet. Not to forget our advantage of the airstrips being at lower altitude.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby rajrang » 11 Aug 2011 03:24

shiv wrote:To become number 1 you have to defeat the person who is number 1. You get nothing by defeating the person who is number X


The 10% growth rate of China compared to the 3 or 4% growth rate of the US will automatically ensure that China is # 1 and the US if # X. China does not need to defeat the US for this purpose. The problem for them is likely to be India with its 8% growth rate and population comparable to China will likely become # 2 a few decades from now and potentially challenge China for global leadership.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Multatuli » 11 Aug 2011 05:16

A follow up to Anup Misra's post:

China began sea trials on Wednesday for its first aircraft carrier, a ship that has come to symbolize the nation’s growing military and maritime ambitions. ~ The aircraft carrier – a retrofitted former Soviet ship called the Varyag – has long been seen as the first step in China’s plan to eventually build a handful of carriers as part of a wider development of naval might. ~ On the same day China’s carrier set sail, Taiwan brandished its most advanced missile at the Taipei Aerospace and Defense Technology Exhibition. The display was accompanied by billboard calling the missle, Hsiung Feng III, an “aircraft carrier killer.” An image of it appeared alongside a picture of a craft closely resembling the Varyag crippled and aflame.


Picture of the stricken Chinese carrier.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/arc ... 68666i.jpg

I have to compliment the Taiwanese both for their sense of humor and their balls.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby ShauryaT » 11 Aug 2011 08:06

ramana wrote:Thomas can Tibet support 14 military airfields and 500K troops? I can see 17 radars stations as its mountainous and hence need more coverage but what are they looking at?
Ramana ji: The 14 number probably comes from FAS.org. The only way to support this is to include not just the TAR but large parts of the Sichuan and Quinghai provinces in it. This way, even Chengdu would have to be counted and most of these bases would be 500+ miles away from India. Although the word used is airfields and not air bases. One would think the number of airfields in TAR alone would be a lot higher. TAR has about six air bases. There is a good Google earth file (KMZ) file that notes all the air bases in PRC.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Altair » 11 Aug 2011 08:31

ramana wrote:Thomas can Tibet support 14 military airfields and 500K troops? I can see 17 radars stations as its mountainous and hence need more coverage but what are they looking at?

If the Chinese want to wage a war they are going to need all the eyes and ears towards us.They are going to need it.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby ramana » 11 Aug 2011 09:12

ShauryaT, Sichuan and Qinghai were once part of greater Tibet and are contigous military regions for PLA.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby chackojoseph » 11 Aug 2011 09:29

ramana wrote:Thomas can Tibet support 14 military airfields and 500K troops? I can see 17 radars stations as its mountainous and hence need more coverage but what are they looking at?


Yes. They have a combination of active and dormant airfields. IMHO, 5 are active and others infrastructure is being built in case. The troops are basically drawn from the nearest military regions. They are looking 3 sides (CIS, Russia, India [as applicable]). The missiles being based is not a myth. Someone (Ashley tellis?) in his book was pooh poohing it. But, AFIK from my own sources, the missiles are very much based there.


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