China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

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shiv
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 10 Sep 2011 16:50

wong is a troll who increasingly posts non military related stuff as he actually reacts to taunts. But I think we ought to try and stay on thread subject here.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby SaiK » 10 Sep 2011 22:10

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FK8i5SBqBuw/T ... 2%2529.jpg

Do they have a wind tunnel model of J20?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby hnair » 11 Sep 2011 01:23

Avarachan, wong = paki troll trying to pass as a drone. There is nothing in his post pattern to indicate he is a comdrone, let alone a thinking one. We need to get back to watching the environmentally conscious striptease at Chengdu Skunk Works.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby nitinr » 11 Sep 2011 22:23

wong wrote:5. China is a coolie nation. Well, how does a coolie amass $3.5 Trillion, soon to be $5 Trillion in foreign reserves. The real coolies are in Dubai with their passport taken away slaving 12 hour days in the 120 degree desert heat building modern day pyramids for the Arabs. Not an econ thread, but I will refer you to the latest global competitiveness report for a dose of much needed reality.

http://reports.weforum.org/global-competitiveness-2011-2012/


My dear friend you just need to come to GCC nations to see what your chinese women are upto :rotfl:

Arabs have amassed more than what China has amassed in US treasuries. Well better than that. They are shareholders in some of the top notch companies. Just google for some big Arab investement house. What has china created for itself with that WHITE ELEPHANT worth 5 billon $. Yes a WHITE ELEPHANT. Its easy to buy one and totally different to maintain one.. Hope you got the drift. Dont want to start economics for dummies in this thread.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby chetak » 12 Sep 2011 06:49

http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2011/08/chinas-military-power?fsrc=nlw|newe|08-26-11|new_on_the_economist


China's military power

Modernisation in sheep's clothing



Aug 26th 2011


by J.M. | BEIJING

THE good news, as suggested by the Pentagon's latest annual report on China's military power is that Chinese leaders are still eager to avoid confrontation with other powers and focus on beefing up the economy. The bad news, it hints, is that this might not last. With its rapidly improving military capability (described by the Pentagon in great detail), China has the wherewithal to challenge the security status quo in the Pacific as well as potential motives to do so.

The report is diplomatically couched — though from China's perspective, not nearly enough. It hints at considerable unease about long-term trends in China's military buildup. The last few months have seen some headline-grabbing aspects of this: an assertion by the Pentagon in December that China was making faster progress than expected on an aircraft-carrier-killing ballistic missile, the DF-21D; a new stealth fighter, the J-20, making its first test flight just as Robert Gates, then defence secretary, was visiting Beijing in January; and then this month the maiden launch of China's first aircraft carrier, a refitted Kuznetsov-class ship (as yet unnamed) from the former Soviet Union.

About these particular weapons, the Pentagon avoids sounding alarmed. Of the DF-21D missile, it says that it is still being developed. It does not repeat the claim made by Admiral Robert Willard of America’s Pacific Command in December that the missile has reached “initial operational capability”. TheJ-20, it says, is not expected to reach “effective operational capability” before 2018 (China, it says, has yet to master high-performance jet-engine production). China is likely to build “multiple” aircraft-carriers with support craft over the next decade. But it will take “several additional years” for China to achieve a “minimal level of combat capability” with them, says the report.

The Pentagon does say, however, that China is steadily closing its technological gap with modern armed forces. The country’s lack of transparency about this, it says, is fuelling concern in the region about China’s intentions, with some of its neighbours fearing that China’s growing military and economic weight is “beginning to produce a more assertive posture, particularly in the maritime domain”. A senior Pentagon official, Michael Schiffer, told reportersthat China’s capabilities could “contribute to regional tensions and anxieties”.


Like previous such reports, this one lists forces which could cause China’s self-proclaimed “peaceful development” to become less so. One of these, which was not listed last year, is a growing expectation at home and abroad that China will become more involved in addressing global problems and pursuing its own international interests. This is causing some of the Chinese leaders in responsible positions to worry about taking on more than they can handle, says the Pentagon. Nationalists at home, however, are pushing for a “more muscular” posture.


China is outraged that anyone could doubt its commitment to a peaceful ascent. The Pentagon’s assertions, said China’s state-run news agency, Xinhua, were “utterly cock-and-bull” and based on “a wild guess and illogical reasoning”. Thumping furiously on the table, China apparently believes, is a good way of convincing the world of its pacific intent.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby chetak » 12 Sep 2011 06:53

EXTRACTS FROM THE PENTAGON'S LATEST ANNUAL REPORT ON CHINA'S MILITARY POWER



http://www.defense.gov/pubs/pdfs/2011_CMPR_Final.pdf





China’s Territorial Disputes



China faces extensive territorial disputes along its land and maritime periphery. Next to the status of Taiwan, these disputes play a central role in PLA planning. Although China has generally adopted a less confrontational posture towards its regional disputes since the late 1990s (China has settled eleven land disputes with six of its neighbors since 1998), some regional actors fear China’s growing military and economic weight is beginning to produce a more assertive posture, particularly in the maritime domain.




In addition to a longstanding and contentious border dispute with India, China has maritime boundary disputes with Japan over the East China Sea and throughout the South China Sea with Vietnam, Malaysia, the Philippines, Brunei, and Taiwan. These have sparked occasional armed conflict, including a 1962 border conflict with India and a 1979 ground invasion of Vietnam. In the South China Sea, China fought Vietnamese forces in the Paracel Islands in 1974 and near Fiery Cross Reef in 1988. In 1995, China occupied Mischief Reef, also in the Spratly Islands, amid protest from the Philippines. In 2002, Beijing and ASEAN brokered a Declaration on Conduct in the South China Sea. While non-binding, the declaration was followed by a period of relative stability.




China’s broad claim to potentially all of the South China Sea remains a source of regional contention. Beginning in the 1930s and 1940s, the Republic of China began publishing regional maps with a dashed line around the perimeter of South China Sea. After taking power in 1949, the CCP maintained this claim. Both the PRC and Taiwan continue to base their South China Sea claims on that broad delineation. China increasingly regards the South China Sea as a vital commercial and security corridor for East and Southeast Asia.




In recent years, some of China’s neighbors have questioned Beijing’s long-term commitment to peacefully and cooperatively resolve the remainder of its disputes. PLA Navy assets have repeatedly circumnavigated the South China Sea since 2005, and civilian enforcement ships, sometimes supported by the PLA Navy, have occasionally harassed foreign vessels. Underscoring the volatility of these various disputes, a PRC-flagged fishing boat collided with Japanese Coast Guard vessels near the disputed Senkaku Islands in the East China Sea, triggering a highly charged political standoff between Tokyo and Beijing in September 2010.





Three Warfares"



The Chinese concept of "three warfares" (san zhong zhanfa—) refers specifically to psychological warfare, media warfare, and legal warfare. It reflects China’s desire to effectively exploit these force enablers in the run up to and during hostilities. During military training and exercises, PLA troops employ the ―three warfares‖ to undermine the spirit and ideological commitment of the adversary. In essence, it is a non-military tool used to advance or catalyze a military objective.




Psychological Warfare seeks to undermine an enemy’s ability to conduct combat operations through operations aimed at deterring, shocking, and demoralizing enemy military personnel and supporting civilian populations.




Media Warfare is aimed at influencing domestic and international public opinion to build support for China’s military actions and dissuade an adversary from pursuing actions contrary to China’s interests.




Legal Warfare uses international and domestic law to claim the legal high ground or assert Chinese interests. It can be employed to hamstring an adversary’s operational freedom and shape the operational space. Legal warfare is also intended to build international support and manage possible political repercussions of China’s military actions. China has attempted to employ legal warfare in the maritime domain and in international airspace in pursuit of a security buffer zone.
In 2003, the CCP Central Committee and the CMC endorsed the ―three warfares concept, reflecting China’s recognition that as a global actor, it will benefit from learning to effectively utilize the tools of public opinion, messaging, and influence. China likely hopes to employ these three concepts in unison, particularly during the early stages of a crisis, as they have a tendency to bolster one another.





Building Capacity for Conventional Precision Strike



Short-Range Ballistic Missiles (< 1,000 km). As of December 2010, the PLA had somewhere between 1,000-1,200 SRBMs. The total number of SRBMs represents little to no change over the past year. However, the PLA continues to field advanced variants with improved ranges and more sophisticated payloads that are gradually replacing earlier generations that do not possess true ―precision strike‖ capability.




Medium-Range Ballistic Missiles (1,000-3,000 km). The PLA is acquiring and fielding conventional MRBMs to increase the range at which it can conduct precision strikes against land targets and naval ships, including aircraft carriers, operating far from China’s shores out to the first island chain.




Land-Attack Cruise Missiles. The PLA continues to field air- and ground-launched LACMs, such as the YJ-63, KD-88, and DH-10 systems for stand-off, precision strikes.




Ground Attack Munitions. The PLA Air Force has a small number of tactical air-to-surface missiles as well as precision-guided munitions including all-weather, satellite-guided bombs, anti-radiation missiles, and laser-guided bombs.




Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles. The PLA Navy has or is acquiring nearly a dozen ASCM variants, ranging from the 1950s-era CSS-N-2 to the modern Russian-made SS-N-22 and SS-N-27B. The pace of ASCM research, development, and production within China has accelerated over the past decade.




Anti-Radiation Weapons. The PLA imported Israeli-made HARPY unmanned combat aerial vehicles (UCAVs) during the 1990s and Russian-made anti-radiation missiles. China continues development of an indigenous version of the Russian Kh-31P (AS-17) known as the YJ-91 and is starting to integrate this system into its fighter-bomber force.




Artillery-Delivered High Precision Munitions. The PLA is developing or deploying artillery systems with the range to strike targets within or even across the Taiwan Strait, including the PHL-03 300 mm multiple-rocket launcher (MRL) (100+ km range) and the WS-2 400 mm MRL (200 km range).





PLA Underground Facilities



Since the early 1950s, the PLA has employed underground facilities (UGFs) to protect and conceal its vital assets. China’s strategic missile force, the Second Artillery Corps (SAC), has developed and utilized UGFs since deploying its oldest liquid-fueled missile systems and continues to utilize them to protect and conceal their newest and most modern solid-fueled mobile missiles. As early as the mid 1990’s Chinese media vaguely acknowledged the existence of UGFs that support the SAC. Since December 2009, several PRC and foreign media reports offered additional insight into this obscure tunnel network, which reportedly stretches for over 5,000 km.




Given China’s nuclear policy of ―no first use and until recently its limited ballistic missile early warning capability, Beijing had assumed it might have to absorb an initial nuclear blow prior to engaging in ―nuclear counterattack. Nuclear survivability was particularly critical given China’s relatively small number of nuclear weapons and the development by potential adversaries of modern, precision munitions. In recent years, advanced construction design has allowed militaries to go deeper underground to complicate adversarial targeting.





Although secrecy and ambiguity remain China’s predominant approach in the nuclear realm, occasional disclosure of information on some missile-related UGFs is consistent with an effort to send strategic signals on the credibility of its limited nuclear arsenal. These public disclosures include images of tunnels, modern network-based security and control centers, and advanced camouflage measures. Categories of military facilities which make good candidates for UGFs include: command posts; communications sites; storage for important weapons and equipment; and protection for personnel.



POWER PROJECTION BEYOND TAIWAN



China continues to invest in military programs designed to improve extended-range operations. Current trends in China’s military capabilities could provide China with a force capable of conducting a range of military operations in Asia well beyond Taiwan.




China’s political leaders have also charged the PLA with developing capabilities for military operations other than war such as peacekeeping, disaster relief, and counter-terrorism operations. These capabilities hold the potential to make positive contributions in the delivery of international public goods, but also increase Beijing’s options for military Military and Security Developments Involving the People’s Republic of China .




Analysis of China’s weapons development and deployment patterns suggests Beijing is already looking at contingencies beyond Taiwan as it builds its force. For example, new missile units outfitted with conventional, theater-range missiles at various locations in China could be used in a variety of non-Taiwan contingencies. Given the fact that Taiwan can be reached by land-based aviation, China’s aircraft carrier program would offer very limited value in a Taiwan scenario and would require additional naval resources for protection. However, it would enable China to extend its naval air capabilities elsewhere. Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) and aerial-refueling programs would also facilitate extended air operations. Advanced destroyers and submarines could protect and advance China’s maritime interests up to and beyond the second island chain.





China’s expeditionary forces (three airborne divisions, two amphibious infantry divisions, two marine brigades, and about seven special operations groups) are improving with the introduction of new equipment, better unit-level tactics, and greater coordination of joint operations. Over the long-term, improvements in China’s C4ISR, including space-based and over-the-horizon sensors, could enable Beijing to identify, track, and target military activities deep into the western Pacific Ocean.




China’s increasing focus on humanitarian assistance and disaster relief (HA/DR) missions will require a unique set of technological developments, including large ships and strategic airlift, to support these missions. Of course, many of these HA/DR capabilities would also enhance the PLA ability to support military operations along and beyond China’s borders.





INDIA



China deepened its ties with India through increased trade and high-level dialogues in 2010, though border tensions remained an irritant in the bilateral relationship. Bilateral trade in 2010 reached nearly $60 billion. The two neighbors have held several rounds of dialogue over disputed territorial claims. Sino-Indian defense ties were institutionalized in 2007 with the establishment of an Annual Defense Dialogue.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 12 Sep 2011 08:24

chetak wrote:http://www.defense.gov/pubs/pdfs/2011_CMPR_Final.pdf

Three Warfares"

The Chinese concept of "three warfares" (san zhong zhanfa—) refers specifically to psychological warfare, media warfare, and legal warfare. It reflects China’s desire to effectively exploit these force enablers in the run up to and during hostilities. During military training and exercises, PLA troops employ the ―three warfares‖ to undermine the spirit and ideological commitment of the adversary. In essence, it is a non-military tool used to advance or catalyze a military objective.

Psychological Warfare seeks to undermine an enemy’s ability to conduct combat operations through operations aimed at deterring, shocking, and demoralizing enemy military personnel and supporting civilian populations.

Media Warfare is aimed at influencing domestic and international public opinion to build support for China’s military actions and dissuade an adversary from pursuing actions contrary to China’s interests.

Legal Warfare uses international and domestic law to claim the legal high ground or assert Chinese interests. It can be employed to hamstring an adversary’s operational freedom and shape the operational space. Legal warfare is also intended to build international support and manage possible political repercussions of China’s military actions. China has attempted to employ legal warfare in the maritime domain and in international airspace in pursuit of a security buffer zone.
In 2003, the CCP Central Committee and the CMC endorsed the ―three warfares concept, reflecting China’s recognition that as a global actor, it will benefit from learning to effectively utilize the tools of public opinion, messaging, and influence. China likely hopes to employ these three concepts in unison, particularly during the early stages of a crisis, as they have a tendency to bolster one another.


Well we're certainly getting a dose of zhong zhanfa here.

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China does it again,lands on the Indian border & retreats..

Postby Dharma » 13 Sep 2011 18:54

China it seems is playing its cat and mouse game again in the ladakh region, by landing its helicopter with chinese frontier guards according to news source

more info here:arrow: http://ibnlive.in.com/news/chinese-helicopter-lands-in-ladakh-sources/183756-3.html

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby nits » 14 Sep 2011 16:56

Chinese troops enter Indian territory; dismantle old bunkers

Chinese troops are reported to have entered into Indian territory and destroyed some old Army bunkers and tents in Chumar division of Nyoma sector, about 300 kilometres from here.

While some reports suggested that the Chinese troops in helicopters entered one-and-a-half kilometres into Indian airspace, other reports said that the helicopters landed in Chinese territory and then the troops marched into the area to dismantle the bunkers, a move aimed at displaying that the area belonged to them.

The Army denied that any such incident had taken place. But sources in the know said that two Chinese helicopters had entered into air space and landed one-and-half kilometres into the Indian territory at Chumar in Chingthang area of Tehsil Nyoma.

The Chinese troops attempted to dismantle an old army bunker, which was not used by the troops for long, the sources said.

Another version quoted to eyewitnesses, who are often the grazers, said that Chinese helicopters landed near the Line of Actual Control and then marched in to destroy old bunkers of the army and tents of ITBP.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby ashish raval » 14 Sep 2011 18:19

I am just baffled by lack of seriousness by India. Why dont they simply mine the area when they leave the bunker and demine them when they are back ? how hard it is to use GPS to do this task ? I dont even know how hard it is to put remote towers which can monitor this pigs entering the bunkers as far as I know there is technology available for this.
Its simply a carelessness. Once enemy is blown to pieces they know what will hit them.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby aditya.agd » 14 Sep 2011 19:22

Indian Army must also do the same. I do not know why Indian army is so pacifist.

prithvi

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby prithvi » 14 Sep 2011 19:38

aditya.agd wrote:Indian Army must also do the same. I do not know why Indian army is so pacifist.


Even if they do.. who will tell you..? have you ever heard encroaching party admitting?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 14 Sep 2011 19:38

Folks - please. In India you will never hear it when the Indian army makes a provocation. The army is hardly pacifist. We are fairly naive on the forum that's all. We think "they" are aggressive and we are not. No need to believe me. Just put me down as a stupid old man.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby merlin » 14 Sep 2011 19:40

I'm sure that IA is not pacifist against Pakistan, but against China I'm not sure.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Gaur » 14 Sep 2011 19:43

Since IA has already denied any such incident, does nobody feel that this may just be DDM?

aditya.agd wrote:Indian Army must also do the same. I do not know why Indian army is so pacifist.

IA is neither pacifist nor a war mongerer. Their behavior is dictated by GOI policies.
Last edited by Gaur on 14 Sep 2011 19:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby SaiK » 14 Sep 2011 19:43

China is a P5 muscle... our shivering dhotis and pajamas are no match for their sharp nuisance.

Our political leadership lacks vision to smother china's stupid antics. It is time we show them their nukes is no use.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 14 Sep 2011 20:33

shiv wrote:Folks - please. In India you will never hear it when the Indian army makes a provocation. The army is hardly pacifist. We are fairly naive on the forum that's all. We think "they" are aggressive and we are not. No need to believe me. Just put me down as a stupid old man.


If the Indian army was guilty of some serious provocation, like crossing the IB, the Chinese would be screaming about it( they scream about far less things, like the mere presence of an Indian ship off the coast of Vietnam). So no, it's very, very unlikely.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 14 Sep 2011 21:22

IA has never been a pacifist. For eons she has had her own games and fun. We just never hear about them - until ages later perhaps.

On denying, so did the IN. Does not mean it is DDM.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 14 Sep 2011 21:26

Varoon Shekhar wrote:
shiv wrote:Folks - please. In India you will never hear it when the Indian army makes a provocation. The army is hardly pacifist. We are fairly naive on the forum that's all. We think "they" are aggressive and we are not. No need to believe me. Just put me down as a stupid old man.


If the Indian army was guilty of some serious provocation, like crossing the IB, the Chinese would be screaming about it( they scream about far less things, like the mere presence of an Indian ship off the coast of Vietnam). So no, it's very, very unlikely.


Fine Fine. I am sure you know. Like I said - I'm just a stupid old man. With delusions.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 15 Sep 2011 05:53

There is an Indian tendency to go out of one's way to be objective and look at "both sides" even when such a position is not warranted. This can take repellent forms, as in explaining a heinous crime like Kaluchak by suggesting that some Indian action during Operation Parakram may have provoked it. As if any military operation( itself an Indian retaliation for all the infiltration and terrorism from Pakistan) could justify the point blank shooting of infants and their mothers at Kaluchak. It's possible that many Indians simply don't want to believe that 1) people hate them for no good reason and 2) that there is actually evil in this world.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 15 Sep 2011 06:03

Varoon Shekhar wrote:There is an Indian tendency to go out of one's way to be objective and look at "both sides" even when such a position is not warranted.


A different opinion even if based on knowledge is not warranted? That sir is utter rubbish.

In this particular instance I have been referring to the characterization of the Indian army as "pacifist" as being an erroneous conclusion. You object to my saying anything against that as an "Indian tendency to see both sides." That is laughable. And my admitting that I may be wrong and that you might know it all does not seem to satisfy you either - and has resulted in this nonsensical argument about why only one side should be stated. You are welcome to see your side. I will see and state whatever side that suits me.

Please just put me on your ignore list if that troubles you.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 15 Sep 2011 06:33

No, no, I was just remarking on a general Indian tendency to see 'both sides', when it cannot be justified. There can be no two sides to Kaluchak or Rwanda. To incursions on the Sino-Indian border, there may be a 'both sides' to it, but as yet, it doesn't look that way- knowing Chinese touchiness about any little thing.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby panda » 15 Sep 2011 08:47

Varoon Shekhar wrote:....... it doesn't look that way- knowing Chinese touchiness about any little thing.


What will the Chinese say? That IA marched in and destroyed their bunkers? Such narrative does not go down well with the populace (as evident from some of the posts in this forum). The Chinese government must have a narrative of their superiority. Hence if IA gains in a small scale skirmish, nobody knows. It is only due to the free press here that we come to know about some Chinese mischief, which can be embarrassing for the IA.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby adityadange » 15 Sep 2011 10:54

one relative of mine in Lieutenant in army who was recently posted to leh area. when we met few months ago i obviously asked him about china and he said such things are frequently happening there. not only chinese but our army too does the same thing. but it is not publicized in media. "its like normal quarrel between neighbors as we use to have/ see in our locality" he said.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby jagbani » 15 Sep 2011 12:51

What i read today that Chinese troops enter India, destroy unused bunkers in Leh, but indian army ignoring these things and Col. Rajesh Kalia said that no such things noticed in this area

Here is the sources:- http://www.punjabkesari.in/punjab/fulls ... 36_147694-


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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Indranil » 15 Sep 2011 20:16


S.W.E.E.T ... A.W.E.S.O.M.E!!!

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby jaladipc » 15 Sep 2011 21:25



Would love to see Arihant and Chakra making friendly visits to Vietnamese ports every now and then along with Vik ,while safeguarding the Indian business abroad.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby MN Kumar » 16 Sep 2011 16:45


Please post the original headline while posting. There were two different lines for the same article. Its misleading sometimes.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Garooda » 16 Sep 2011 20:35

Here we go...not sure if this was posted or being discussed else where but 'Chest Thumping' at its best?????

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 993613.cms

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Boreas » 16 Sep 2011 20:55

Garooda wrote:http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/refrain-from-south-china-sea-oil-exploration-china-warns-india/articleshow/9993613.cms
For countries outside the region we hope they will respect and support countries in the region to solve the bilateral disputes through bilateral channels," she said.

"As for oil and gas exploration activities, our consistent position is that we are opposed to any country engaged in oil and gas exploration and development activities in waters under China's jurisdiction.


MEA should copy paste these lines for chicoms 'massive' 'provocative' presence in northern J&K.

For countries outside the region we hope they will respect and support countries in the region to solve the bilateral disputes through bilateral channels,"

"As for infrastructure development activities, our consistent position is that we are opposed to any country engaged in infrastruture exploration and development activities in land under India's jurisdiction.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Vashishtha » 16 Sep 2011 22:19

this is something countries are normally supposed to do but we are so used to the pussyness shown by the current GOI that this is considered to be 'showing tennis balls'

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby PrithviRajChauhan » 17 Sep 2011 06:43

Garooda wrote:Here we go...not sure if this was posted or being discussed else where but 'Chest Thumping' at its best?????



I think this "chest thumping" business is mutual .

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/south-china-sea-ongc-will-continue-exploration-work-india-tells-vietnam/articleshow/10014453.cms

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby PrithviRajChauhan » 17 Sep 2011 11:13

"Let the see be calm"
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2011-09/17/content_13724709.htm

Dont know why Chinks are making so much of noise? Development projects in POK is all hunky dory but anything in South China is taboo.

Thomas Kolarek
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Thomas Kolarek » 17 Sep 2011 17:47

Good time to play this game, lets give Prithvi to Vietnam and some additional freebies if possible.

bmallick
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby bmallick » 17 Sep 2011 18:04

Well, China is definitely playing a high stakes game and its about time we too raise the stakes and call the bluff.

Another important piece of news: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/China-announces-plan-to-expand-seabed-mining-in-Indian-Ocean/articleshow/10019208.cms

Boreas
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Boreas » 17 Sep 2011 18:10

Was just going through all the reports/articles on recent development in south china sea. I personally feel it may end with terrible results. Its an overwhelming stand of a foreign ministry, with an under preprared defense ministry.

By no means we are currently in a position to see china eye to eye in south china sea. I have no objection with the way MEA trying to put forward a bold face. However I can't stop myself imagining of how are we going to hold on to the stand we are taking?

The below mentioned extract from Raman's blog sums it pretty well -

Raman's strategic analysis wrote:6. The US has so far been following a policy of rejecting Chinese claims of sovereignty over the entire Sea while not getting involved in the various disputes over the claims of sovereignty over the island territories. Indian policy closely converged with that of the US. It rejected the Chinese projection of the Sea as a whole as Chinese waters. It took steps to develop its strategic relations with Vietnam. It asserted the rights of the ships of the Indian Navy to transit the South China Sea during their visits to Vietnamese ports without the need to inform China beforehand or ask for Chinese permission.


7. At the same time, India rightly observed a nuanced silence on the dispute over the island territories. Now, for the first time, India is seeking to take a position on the island territories under the de facto control of Vietnam by accepting Vietnamese claims of de jure sovereignty over them.


8. This is a position with inherent seeds of an undesirable military confrontation between India and China in the South China Sea itself and subsequently or simultaneously across the land borders between the two countries. India is still in the process of strengthening its military-related infrastructure near the Chinese border. In my assessment, it will take India from five to 10 years to bring its infrastructure on par with that of China in Tibet.


9.The reach and strength of the Indian Navy in the South China Sea is far behind that of the US. The US is in a position to engage China in a naval confrontation in the South China Sea, but it realises that such a confrontation could be counter-productive. That is why it has been observing a neutral stand on the island territories.


10. The implications of the reported Indian move to accept Vietnamese claims of sovereignty and to consider favourably the Vietnamese invitation to undertake oil and gas exploration do not appear to have been carefully considered by the Government of India. China has been opposing with determination repeated Vietnamese moves to undertake explorations for natural resources around the island territories under its de facto control. It is likely to oppose any move by the Indian company to undertake exploration in the area.


11. We have seen that Vietnam has not been able to counter effectively Chinese disruptions of its exploration activities. It will not be able to provide adequate protection to the Indian company. Will we be able to keep a permanent presence of the Indian Navy in the area to protect the operations of the Indian company? Will it be able to counter Chinese attempts to disrupt the operations of the Indian company?


12. The ultimate result may be a confrontation with China in the seas adjacent to the Chinese mainland which India cannot hope to win and an over-all deterioration in Sino-Indian relations at a time when India is not yet prepared for a full-blown confrontation with China.


13. Some analysts have projected the Indian move as a tit-for-tat response to Chinese troops moving into the Gilgit-Baltistan area of Jammu and Kashmir under Pakistani occupation to assist Pakistan in the development of its infrastructure in an area over which India claims sovereignty.


14. The Gilgit-Baltistan area is legitimately ours. The Chinese have no business to be there. We have many options for countering them and for making their foray into the area prohibitively costly and bloody for them. Instead of identifying those options and undertaking them, we should not try to confront the Chinese in the South China Sea, which is not India’s cup of tea.


http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot.com/2011/09/south-china-sea-india-should-avoid.html

Varoon Shekhar
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 17 Sep 2011 18:50

bmallick wrote:Well, China is definitely playing a high stakes game and its about time we too raise the stakes and call the bluff.

Another important piece of news: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/China-announces-plan-to-expand-seabed-mining-in-Indian-Ocean/articleshow/10019208.cms


Yet another example of how China does "care" and pay attention to what India does, then tries to match or surpass it. This totally refutes the recent NY Times article, which intended to portray a China that doesn't even notice India. China notices India in a big way, despite the propaganda and imagery to the contrary. China puts on airs that it doesn't care or notice, but the facts on the ground show otherwise.

India was involved in mining sea-bed nodules before China was( incidentally, any update on India's progress in this area?) . So you can add sea-bed mining to a whole list of activities that India was involved in first, and China played catch-up. Other areas include IT, BPO, animation, automotive, astronomy, Antarctica research, statistics research, alternative energy like wind, solar etc. There are more.

shiv
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 17 Sep 2011 18:54

Boreas wrote: I personally feel it may end with terrible results. Its an overwhelming stand of a foreign ministry, with an under preprared defense ministry.

:rotfl: You know - this is totally OT. I would like to place you on a shrink's couch and dig into your thoughts to ask what are the various factors that make you say this and what "terrible results" you anticipate. To me it would be an interesting insight of how you perceive India and China.

SaiK
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby SaiK » 17 Sep 2011 19:01

It all takes one flight downwards economically, and the chinese will realize how many states it could form itself for freedom and prosperity.


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