China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby saptarishi » 06 Nov 2011 04:44

VinodTK wrote:China Seen Deploying New Nuke-Ready Ballistic Missiles
Authors Hans Kristensen and Robert Norris estimated that China now possesses 240 nuclear weapons as well as some 140 ballistic missiles fielded on land, 72 missiles with ranges that can hit U.S. targets and 40 missiles capable of striking the U.S. mainland.

However, Beijing has run into problems in developing a sea-based platform for its nuclear warheads, according to the authors. "Efforts to deploy JL-2 submarine-launched ballistic missiles on [the] new Jin-class SSBNs [ballistic-missile submarines] have suffered setbacks. Because of this, China does not have any operational [submarine-launched ballistic missiles]."

"China's main concern is the survivability of its minimum nuclear deterrent, and it spends considerable resources on dispersing and hiding its land-based missiles," Norris and Kristensen wrote. "This makes its SSBN program even more puzzling, for it is much riskier to deploy nuclear weapons at sea, where the SSBNs could be sunk by unfriendly forces."

"The U.S. government has complained for years that China is too opaque regarding its military forces and budgets and that it needs to be more open," the authors noted (see GSN, Oct. 28; Kristensen/Norris, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, November/December 2011).

Even as it adds to its stockpile of weapons capable of striking the United States, the People's Liberation Army is also aiming missiles at Russia and India, the Times of India reported. The DF-31 is capable of traveling nearly 4,500 miles.

Sources within India's government are concerned that much of the buildup of Chinese nuclear forces is taking place in the Delingha region, which is only about 1,240 miles away from New Delhi.

Indian government personnel fear their country is under particular consideration for targeting by China, unlike other nearby nations such as Nepal, Myanmar and Pakistan.

Kristensen cautioned, though, that China's nuclear posture is focused on countering a number of possible antagonists.

"One factor that can contribute to making the situation better or worse between China and India is of course India's own military modernization along the India-China border as well as India's development of longer-range nuclear missiles that are more directly aimed at China," Kristensen told the Times.

The Bulletin report notes that "deployment of the DF-31, first introduced in 2006, continues at a slow rate; China is using the DF-31 ICBM to replace its older DF-4 missiles. We estimate that China deploys 10-20 DF-31s, with the same number of launchers"


.dragons are the real enemies not the tsp.wake up to the dargon threat GOI.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 06 Nov 2011 07:29

Tumba wrote:
Indian Press and Indian Civilians can not be grouped together, good part of Billion Indians don't follow Indian Press.


Sorry sir. This is rubbish. You have not been looking at what the media have been doing in India or what Indians have been doing for that matter. Indians are more clued in than you think. And may I point out that you are contradicting yourself? If people don't read these scaremongering reports how do they help in raising expenditure? Fact is they don't.

I don't think idiotic reports help in raising expenditure because all that these fears do is make Indians hate and curse others Indians for incompetence while Pakistani and Chinese efficiency have been praised. Defence expenditure is hardly what it should be, so claiming that "Panicky reports help raise expenditure on defence" is a bogey. No such thing is happening. We are still stuck at 2 point something of GDP. In fact people think that money is being wasted because they see the huge sums involved and then see reports suggesting that we need to crap in our pants if China passes wind and people say "People are embezzling money".

Pessimism and negativity may have a role but nowhere near the rosy picture you are painting about a shamefully scared Indian population subjugated by constant negativity about the shortcomings of their own while bombarded with praise for everyone else's greatness. And you claim that people need to be scared, misinformed and shamed more to increase defence expenditure to prevent bin Cassim form coming? You mean Indians are so ignorant and under-informed that they need to be fed grossly exaggerated reports before they agree to spend on defence? That is exactly what I mean when I say that Indians don't trust each other to have any brains or awareness of threats. You are doing exactly that. Congratulations. You have helped me make my point.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Tumba » 06 Nov 2011 09:26

shiv wrote:
Tumba wrote:
Indian Press and Indian Civilians can not be grouped together, good part of Billion Indians don't follow Indian Press.


Sorry sir. This is rubbish. You have not been looking at what the media have been doing in India or what Indians have been doing for that matter. Indians are more clued in than you think. And may I point out that you are contradicting yourself? If people don't read these scaremongering reports how do they help in raising expenditure? Fact is they don't.

I don't think idiotic reports help in raising expenditure because all that these fears do is make Indians hate and curse others Indians for incompetence while Pakistani and Chinese efficiency have been praised. Defence expenditure is hardly what it should be, so claiming that "Panicky reports help raise expenditure on defence" is a bogey. No such thing is happening. We are still stuck at 2 point something of GDP. In fact people think that money is being wasted because they see the huge sums involved and then see reports suggesting that we need to crap in our pants if China passes wind and people say "People are embezzling money".

Pessimism and negativity may have a role but nowhere near the rosy picture you are painting about a shamefully scared Indian population subjugated by constant negativity about the shortcomings of their own while bombarded with praise for everyone else's greatness. And you claim that people need to be scared, misinformed and shamed more to increase defence expenditure to prevent bin Cassim form coming? You mean Indians are so ignorant and under-informed that they need to be fed grossly exaggerated reports before they agree to spend on defence? That is exactly what I mean when I say that Indians don't trust each other to have any brains or awareness of threats. You are doing exactly that. Congratulations. You have helped me make my point.


With all due respect sir, whatever you perceives an average Indian to be you yourself is a mirror image of that, these things should be reported in media even if it fills anxiety in tiny percentage of Indian populace who actually has access to these and follows these stories because more or less this is self defense mechanism that works exactly the way it should work.

Have faith in the society who has survived from hundred of years of massacre/looting/conversions don't be pessimistic, the collective psychic of India is on an upward surge, these reports are irrelevant in the direction your referring to.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 06 Nov 2011 10:17

Tumba wrote:Have faith in the society who has survived from hundred of years of massacre/looting/conversions don't be pessimistic, the collective psychic of India is on an upward surge, these reports are irrelevant in the direction your referring to.


Tumba you read me wrong. I am hardly a pessimist. You just don't know me or my views and reach hasty conclusions. I can see how easily you seem to reach questionable conclusions. Why would I be a pessimist if I criticise pessimistic stories? I should be welcoming them as you do. I think it is you who are being pessimistic by imagining that Indians have to be exposed to bad news for them to agree to more defence spending. You need to look at your own views in the mirror.

Tumba wrote:It is because of these stories you see 99% people around you will be agreeing on more military spending, these stories keeps people like you and me favorable to increasing defenses of Indian Military which are very much required otherwise you will see a scum of a leader like Nehru again.


In your mind
1. Nehru is scum
2. All Indians have been subjugated
3. They need to be fed with scary stories to make them understand the need for defence expenditure. You think Indians are that dumb. I think this is a mirror into your own mind and you think everyone is like you. You need scary stories to agree to more defence expenditure. Why are you including me and all Indians as being like you?

That is nonsense sir. Utter tripe.

You are allowed to say what you like about Nehru. On this forum for purported Indians Nehru can be called anything as long as you don't threaten a US president, which will get the FBI after you in America. But don't imagine that all of India was subjugated or that modern day Indians are so stupid that they need to be scared into agreeing with your pet delusions.

And you call me a pessimist? that is rich.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Tumba » 06 Nov 2011 10:46

shiv wrote:
Tumba wrote:Have faith in the society who has survived from hundred of years of massacre/looting/conversions don't be pessimistic, the collective psychic of India is on an upward surge, these reports are irrelevant in the direction your referring to.


Tumba you read me wrong. I am hardy a pessimist. You just don't know me or my views and reach hasty conclusions. I can see how easily you seem to reach questionable conclusions. I think it is you who are being pessimistic by imagining that Indians have to be exposed to bad news for them to agree to more defence spending. You might need to look at your own views in the mirror.

Tumba wrote:It is because of these stories you see 99% people around you will be agreeing on more military spending, these stories keeps people like you and me favorable to increasing defenses of Indian Military which are very much required otherwise you will see a scum of a leader like Nehru again.


In your mind
1. Nehru is scum
2. All Indians have been subjugated
3. They need to be fed with scary stories to make them understand the need for defence expenditure. You think Indians are that dumb. Are you sure that this is not a mirror into your own mind? You need scary stories to agree to more defence expenditure. Why are you including me and all Indians as being like you?

That is nonsense sir. Utter tripe.

You are allowed to say what you like about Nehru. On this forum for purported Indians Nehru can be called anything as long as you don't threaten a US president, which will get the FBI after you in America. But don't imagine that all of India was subjugated or that modern day Indians are so stupid that they need to be scared into agreeing with your pet delusions.

And you call me a pessimist? that is rich.




All I can say is that I don't agree to the conclusions you are making on the effects to these scary stories as you are referring to these news. These news reports are based on Solid Facts provided by our own Military whether the reports of Chinese troop presence in POK or fortifying the lines by PLA in Tibet.

And about Nehru being a scum I think you need to take a look what exactly i have written, A scum of a leader because i see
a solid base supporting that fact, as a leading figure he had a pretty good control on masses in his time, but he was never a leader or was capable to be one that India wanted at that time.

And I fail to understand what you really want : To stop these news reports? Please give me you point of view. Thanks

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 06 Nov 2011 11:39

Tumba wrote:
And I fail to understand what you really want : To stop these news reports? Please give me you point of view. Thanks


There is no need for me to make you understand anything. I state my views on this forum. If you disagree that is fine with me. I am not about to change your views and you are not going to change my views.

I strongly disagree with the contention that scary stories are true or necessary. You have yourself said that they are stories that are necessary for the following reason.
Tumba wrote:The Fear Factor is necessary in a governance system like ours or USA.


You seem to think that the population of India (I don't know and don't care about what USA might need) need to be fed with scare stories to make them accept the need for spending on defence. You want Indians to have a "Fear Factor" which you endorse. :roll:

If you don't need those scare stories for yourself then the Indian population does not need them.

if you need those scare stories then you want to be old lies. How do you expect everyone to believe the lies that you want to be told? Why do you feel that "Indians need such scare stories"?

If you believe the scare stories you will find that a lot of Indians do not believe them.

Such scare stories are not needed. There is no need to exaggerate and aggravate fears. Keep them realistic is what I feel.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby rajrang » 06 Nov 2011 11:46

shiv wrote:I think it is you who are being pessimistic by imagining that Indians have to be exposed to bad news for them to agree to more defence spending.

Such scare stories are not needed. There is no need to exaggerate and aggravate fears. Keep them realistic is what I feel.



This was a tactic that the military industrial lobbies in the US used frequently during the cold war to increase defense expenditure through scaring. Similarly exaggeration of the threat posed by Iraq (WMD) was one of the justifications for attacking Iraq. In India's case the defense industry is largely public sector plus foreign suppliers. By the way, is there a coincidence between the recent Indian announcement about 100,000 additional troops and the recent US offer of the F-35 fighter?

The decision to add 6 new mountain divisions within a 10 year window signals India's resolve to not only stand up to the bully but also take the battle into Tibet! I hope several hundred 155 mm artillery and additional Suhkhoi squadrons accompany the build-up. Expanding subsequently to 20 mountain divisions will further underline India's resolve in my view. Then India could consider teaching China a lesson.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby rajrang » 06 Nov 2011 12:00

Anyone have insight whether the 100,000 new soldiers will be recruited from communities with martial reputations - for example sikhs, dogras, gurkhas etc.?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Singha » 06 Nov 2011 12:08

the martial race thing has been debunked as british era myth.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_19648 » 06 Nov 2011 12:33

rajrang wrote:Anyone have insight whether the 100,000 new soldiers will be recruited from communities with martial reputations - for example sikhs, dogras, gurkhas etc.?

Getting the 90,000 troops among the 1,00,000 will not be a problem, but getting the 10,000 army officers is going to be a serious problem. I hope they come up with a good roadmap to fill in the required numbers.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 06 Nov 2011 12:36

Singha wrote:the martial race thing has been debunked as british era myth.


The British conned the people whom they called "martial races" good and proper after the 1857 war of independence. They were even told that they were resistant to syphilis so that sexual relations with anyone would not harm them in any way. :D

The "martial races" thing was played up as a foil to the politically active "Bengalee". The Pakis of course swallowed it hook line and sinker because gora aadmi was all praise for them and it did great things for their echandee even as they were suckered by the Brits

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Rahul M » 06 Nov 2011 12:43

how many know that before 1857 the scheming bengali was considered a martial race ? :mrgreen:

it's about time we throw this idiocy in the nearest garbage bin.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby D Roy » 06 Nov 2011 12:58

The martial race theory was done to foil the much hated poorbiyas, now bhaiyaas. The land and people between Allahabad and Calcutta are very much a continuum.

It was the poorbi soldiers who had won India for the British beating the marathas and it was this very bunch which then turned against the British during the war of 1857.

The MRT was always about "putting in place" the vidrohis of the gangetic belt and co-opting all the medieval kingdoms which the British had subjugated. It was a divide and rule masterstroke.
Last edited by D Roy on 06 Nov 2011 14:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby tsarkar » 06 Nov 2011 13:08

^^ OT here, but in late 30's, the Khuda-e-Khidmatgars led by Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan was the leading political party on the frontier. The party and its members were behind bars during the Quit India movement. They also helped Subhash Bose escape to Kabul. The party was perceived to be enabling Nazis, and were politically replaced by the British with Muslim League Nawabs and Zamindars who perceived social progress attained under the Khuda-e-Khidmatgars as a threat to their status.

I wonder what would that part of the world have been today under Khuda-e-Khidmatgars & Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan. But fate/history is not without its sense of irony, and British and US are today suffering the consequences of their bright policies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khan_Abdul_Ghaffar_Khan

Another such action was the murder of the progressive Iranian Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh

And Nixon went to China to appease Mao, and tried his best to ensure India was defeated in '71 because Pakistanis gave him that opening to Mao. Maybe the Chinese should rename the DF21 ASBM as Nixon missile.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_20033 » 06 Nov 2011 13:52

Chanakaya wrote:I tend to agree with Marut. I think in todays world it will not be possible for anyone forcefully come and occupy Indian terriotery. What could be the possible reason for China to attack India. One could be to humiliate us by a sharp and swift attack like they did in 1962. In any such attack their aim would be to penetrate as deep as they can and bring the war to a swift end.

But What did china achieved by 1962 attack. I think it made India confront realities and become self independent in terms of defense and arm itself with nukes. Another such attack will only be long term negative for China as India will rearm itself more vigrously after any probable defeat.

To stop such an attack we need to update our border infrastructure raise more mountain division and arm them with best possible arms. (ordering more self propelled howizer should be the priority along with more attack helicopter). Marut is probably right they need to defeat us while we just need a stalemate.

The second objective can be to completely destroy India so that we can never compete with them in future. But can they afford an all out war with India given taht we accquire Nerpa and Vikramdity and a credible third strike capability to destory their indusrial power house and cities.

Will the chinese take such risk. I think it would be utterly paranoid of them to even contemplate it.

Since I am working in Finance I think that Chinese will face very hard times due to the inhrerent imbalacne nature of their ecnomy. When economy will faltter unempoyement will rise which will lead to civil strife. In worst case scenario if the Communist party faces a threat to their existence they will wage a war to mobilize public opinion.

Such a war could be raised with India (which have nukes so they should not go for a long sustained war). It can start a war with Mayanmar or Vietnam

Interestingly in last 300 years Chinese have been utterly defeated by Manaynmer between 1767 -1769 while vietnam showed them how fierece they are in 1979.

India is the only country which was defeated by the chinese but now we have nukes (which they also know we wont use unless we have existential threat)

So whom would they attack.

Interesting scenario.

I wonder what our millitary generals must be thinking about it


With respect to my previous post I would like to add following observation and request other members view.

As we know that China's military doctrine is guided by Art of War which says that the best general will defeat its enemy even without going to war.

With respect to this statement and keeping in view that China's main aim is to stop India growing there by resulting into Chinese hegemony over Asia the best strategy for china would be the following.

Keep on boosting Paki military and making paki society increasingly unstable and paranoid.

Engineer a breakdown in Paki society and eventual takeover of Paki military by fundamentalist element.

Increasing hatred and paranoia for a Hindu India and their unfinished agenda of converting India from Darul -haram to Darul Harab will cause them to start a war which will ultimately result into multiple nuclear strikes on Indian cities. (the Chinese will assure the Pakis that once they strike India with Nukes they will interfere in the war and save Paki ass form being burnt without any intention of doing so.)

India will retaliate will full force to paki and bomb paki back to stone age.

The result is a win win for china.

India will be thrown 50 years behind and the competition between India and china will be over wihtout even killing a single Chinese solider.

The headache of Pakistan will also be gone as it will be destroyed by India.

China will be left as the sole super Asian super power with its industrial bases intact and forces to take care of Islamic militancy in Xhanzing and sallow tibet and Arunachal pardesh along with leh and lakdah.

I believe that this is the strategy the Chines are working on since last two decades. that is why they are arming pakistan to the hilt with nukes and missiles.

The only counter strategy to this is to team up with US and take a counter measure against pakistan. The scenario should be something like this.

Pakistan military is divided into two sections pro and anti US. Use it so divide the military and start an internal power struggle.

Paki society is increasingly destabilized and with failure of politician to give security the society will fall into a civil war.

Take out top brass of military and render it incapable of decision making.

Use the civil war situation to remove all nukes and bomb all advance industrial base of Pakistan so that they wont be able to even manufacture a AK 47

Divide the country into four separate countries with each fighting with each other.

Merge pakthun dominated area of pakistan with pakthun dominated area of Afghanistan and make it an independent country. The rest of Afghanistan would be more manageable an stable.

So by doing this Pakistan will be cut to size. Chinese strategy will be rendered useless and the western front of India will calmed for once and for all.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby rohitvats » 06 Nov 2011 13:57

WRT Martial Race Theory - as one Englishman put it about MRT - "Many a men are known to behave as they are thought to be percieved".

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby tsarkar » 06 Nov 2011 14:41

shiv wrote:The "martial races" thing was played up as a foil to the politically active "Bengalee". The Pakis of course swallowed it hook line and sinker because gora aadmi was all praise for them and it did great things for their echandee even as they were suckered by the Brits
Rahul M wrote:how many know that before 1857 the scheming bengali was considered a martial race?
D Roy wrote:The martial race theory was done to foil the much hated poorbiyas, now bhaiyaas.
The Madrasis were similarly denigrated after Vellore Mutiny in 1806. The Pakistanis still believed that Madrasis are not a martial race, and they rudely learnt the lesson in 1971.

http://www.defencejournal.com/oct99/barapind.htm
and thus at Barapind despite all the martial and Islamic fervour and a clear cut three to one majority in tanks...8 Armoured Brigade; an elite fighting outfit, was brought to grief; failing to dislodge one regiment of Centurions supported by three infantry units, out of which one was that of a mixed composition and two of those Madrasis despised as non-martial in Pakistan!

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby chaanakya » 06 Nov 2011 15:04

Pakistan does not have its own Nook bomb, all this is what Chinese have gifted to them. Now there are reports of Chinese Military presence on Chinese soil which gives rise to suspicion that they might be managing their nooks on Paki soil

So the corollary follows that If Pakistan uses Nook on India it would be China that would , in fact, be using Nook on India via their proxy Pig. So in such a eventuality India would have to lob few nooks the Chinese way. just think of few targets that would set China back by 100 years in no time flat.

Agni V and VI are not in vain.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 06 Nov 2011 20:35

tsarkar wrote:http://www.defencejournal.com/oct99/barapind.htm
and thus at Barapind despite all the martial and Islamic fervour and a clear cut three to one majority in tanks...8 Armoured Brigade; an elite fighting outfit, was brought to grief; failing to dislodge one regiment of Centurions supported by three infantry units, out of which one was that of a mixed composition and two of those Madrasis despised as non-martial in Pakistan!


Off topic but in 1965 also one of them madrasis maraaoed martial gaand
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... 0.jpg.html
Saga of Strategy & Courage: Pakistan's superiority in armour was dealt a crushing blow by the splendid strategy and superior tactics of the Indian officers and jawans in the Khem Karan sector. It was here that a decisive tank battle was bitterly fought, the back of the enemy broken and their First Armoured Division, consisting mostly of Patton tanks, badly mauled.

Brigadier Thomas K. Theograj commanded an Armoured Brigade which made Kheema [mince-meat] of the Pak Army tanks in the epic battle of Assal Uttar (True North) at Khem Karan. The battle was so intense, that Brigadier Theograj could say only one word - MARO (SHOOT). After the battle, Brigadier Theograj proudly wore the badges of the Pakistani armoured regiments that had opposed him at Assal Uttar, namely; the 4th Cavalry, the 6th Lancers, the 5th Horse and the 24th Cavalry.


Also see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHSVJNNsQ4U

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby tsarkar » 06 Nov 2011 21:23

In 65, elite Pakistani tankers lost at Phillora and Asal Uttar, and barely checked India at Chawinda (we still held the ground).

But we fail to commemorate our victories, and allow the scum of the earth to score propoganda victories.

Pakistan as a nation is built on lies, and sadly we fail to highlight our well earned achievements to dispel those lies.

When Musharraf threatens of ISI taking on India for nation building in Afghanistan, not one present there could remind him of Phillora, Asal Uttar or Basantar.

As per his biography, his friend's US provided TFTA SPG was hit by SDRE IA artillery in that war. He named his son after his late friend.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_20029 » 06 Nov 2011 22:20

Chanakaya wrote:
As we know that China's military doctrine is guided by Art of War which says that the best general will defeat its enemy even without going to war.



just because Sun Tzu is Chinese doesn't mean the Chinese use Sun Tzu. The Brute force type approach the Chin used in '62 is evidence of that.



we should stop talking about "martial races" and other brit-seeded bullshit like that.
the fact of the matter is that the ChiPak alliance is getting stronger (especially after the US killed Osama), and even though Pak hasn't built or designed it's own nukes, it still has them. With Pak to the NW and Chin to the NE, and as a subcontinent, India must develop a comprehensive military and war doctrine that will allow them to defeat air, naval, and land operations.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Austin » 06 Nov 2011 23:39


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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby hnair » 07 Nov 2011 00:37

Rahul M wrote:how many know that before 1857 the scheming bengali was considered a martial race ? :mrgreen:


:D We were struck off from the roster some fifty years before 1857 (Velu Thampi Dalava incident). Wikipedia entry for Martial arts has some funny stuff on Nairs and Mukkulathors - both turned wimps and criminal after British said so :rotfl:

Sort of Good Taliban vs Bad Taliban crap

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby SaiK » 07 Nov 2011 01:08


lot of pointers for desh!

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby VinodTK » 07 Nov 2011 01:10

This thread has gown OT; big time.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby adityadange » 07 Nov 2011 18:28

one newbie question/war scenario from me:
i have been hearing that china is able to deploy some 30 lakh troops across indian border using tibetian railway. but in wartime what if we cut down the railway route with missiles? lets consider a scenario that china has covertly deployed a large number of troops and suddenly started war and occupied indian territory (just as kargil). now as indian infrastructure is bad their progress in india will be relatively slow. in such case if we cut down their railway and road network (using agni 1 maybe) their supply will be hampred. meanwhile we will just defend the positions and once they start starving out we can launch assault against the force in our territory. your opinions please.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby ParGha » 07 Nov 2011 19:04

Aditya, the Chinese are not interested in any more territory in this area (it is hard enough for them to defend what they already have; they make periodic noises about Tawang only to take pressure off of Askai Chin)... if there is conflict in the future, the main theater of action will be on the seas. The landwards action, if any, will just be a small feint (no where close to the scale you presented; the Chinese had just allocated 30 lakh troops to fight the Soviets, and, unlike India, the Soviets actually had the armor and artillery to overrun most of North China). Prithvis and Brahmos are enough for the missions you proposed. Worry about the seas.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby rajrang » 08 Nov 2011 11:56

Singha wrote:the martial race thing has been debunked as british era myth.



Yet the Indian army continues to maintain units composed of martial people Do they know something that we in BR do not?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Aditya_V » 08 Nov 2011 12:17

adityadange wrote:one newbie question/war scenario from me:
i have been hearing that china is able to deploy some 30 lakh troops across indian border using tibetian railway. but in wartime what if we cut down the railway route with missiles? lets consider a scenario that china has covertly deployed a large number of troops and suddenly started war and occupied indian territory (just as kargil). now as indian infrastructure is bad their progress in india will be relatively slow. in such case if we cut down their railway and road network (using agni 1 maybe) their supply will be hampred. meanwhile we will just defend the positions and once they start starving out we can launch assault against the force in our territory. your opinions please.



Yes but what if they already moved men equipment and rations using the railway and using the gains like in 1962 they declare ceasefire. The damage would be done then right.

No way we can preemptively take out the railway lines before the conflict starts as that will us declaring war.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby sanjchopra » 08 Nov 2011 14:52

Not sure whether this dhaaga is the right one for the news below or not, none the less...

Mystery plane crashes in China

The Beijing News quoted locals as saying they had seen something that looked like a plane crash on a hilltop and explode.

One official at the scene said the plane was not a civilian aircraft, the report said.
Caixin Century magazine, a well established news weekly, speculated the aircraft may be military, privately-owned or for agricultural use.
The defence and agriculture ministries were not immediately available for comment.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby adityadange » 08 Nov 2011 15:20

Aditya_V wrote:Yes but what if they already moved men equipment and rations using the railway and using the gains like in 1962 they declare ceasefire. The damage would be done then right.

No way we can preemptively take out the railway lines before the conflict starts as that will us declaring war.


yes but how much stores they are able to keep near border? maybe for supply for 1 month/2 month? what after that? they will need huge warehouses to for adequate quantity right? if they build such buildings then:
1. we will get alarmed (i suppose we already are alarmed and closely monitoring them)
2. during war these buildings will be easy targets for our missiles. so what purpose they will serve- testing indian missile's CEP??

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011 - People Power

Postby skher » 10 Nov 2011 01:56

Aditya_V wrote:Yes but what if they already moved men equipment and rations using the railway and using the gains like in 1962 they declare ceasefire. The damage would be done then right.

No way we can preemptively take out the railway lines before the conflict starts as that will us declaring war.


In face of brute gorilla style force,Vanar sena/guerrilla style operations have been historically used to defend territory aggressively. This means massive recruitment(10-20 years in advance,like NCC did) and automating management of presumably disadvantaged personnel & equipment.

The above was the scenario before 24x7 news and globalization.

1.Now, we need an Arab Spring like response from the Himalayan provinces,as well as Tibet and Xinjiang. Hence, only R&AW/DIA based operations are sustainable as core of our defence,IMVHO. The rhinos will negotiate with a dragon, only after its wings are on fire.

2.SFF,SSB and ITBP were specially created for the above presented guerrilla scenario.Preemptive strikes are intelligence based - infrastructure; equipment and terrain notwithstanding.

3.Is Ladakh,HP,UK,Sikkim,Nepal,Bhutan,Darjeeling, etc. an Indian home, integral part nevertheless. If the people of these lands say yes, we win; Beijing demarches notwithstanding.

rajrang wrote:
Singha wrote:the martial race thing has been debunked as british era myth.

..
Yet the Indian army continues to maintain units composed of martial people Do they know something that we in BR do not?


These Himalayan regions have potential martial races as well, like the Nagas of the teething Naga Regiment.The British have always understood the effect of fervor and homesickness on morale.One of these so called martial races sustains 11 regiments and singlehandedly maintains our special relationship with republican Nepal,a buffer zone. So, martial races, like Western civilization,is a "very good idea".

P.S.: Points 1-3 have made because the process of creating defence infrastructure is glacial :(( , compared to "eye-opener" China. Eventually, we can't hope for this infra to come by 2012 end, so we must prepare our entire citizenry's will for total war.Perhaps a universal youth support arm(14-40yrs) might help, for such a preparation.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby aditya.agd » 10 Nov 2011 02:51

Logistics is a force multiplier in any conflict. Unfortunately, China appears to have a clear lead over Indians in that space.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby aditya.agd » 10 Nov 2011 02:53

Indian Military doctrine must be to fight with & also defeat Chi-Pak on multiple fronts.

Also, we must hold on to Tibet and make it an independent country to serve us as buffer between us and China.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby skher » 10 Nov 2011 03:19

aditya.agd wrote:(option 1)Indian Military doctrine must be to fight with & also defeat Chi-Pak on multiple fronts.

(option 2)Also, we must hold on to Tibet and make it an independent country to serve us as buffer between us and China.


Trouble is,the resources for option 2 are non-existent,as discussed earlier.Naturally, China will not wait, especially with good roads and rails.War is,safer to presume, likely upon us in summer 2012-with ice melting away.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/nervous-china-may-attack-india-by-2012-de/488349/
"China will launch an attack on India before 2012. There are multiple reasons for a desperate Beijing to teach India the final lesson, thereby ensuring Chinese supremacy in Asia in this century," Bharat Verma, Editor of the Indian Defence Review, has said.

Hence, the capabilities for only option 1 exists, post 1962.The most efficient and natural way to fight on multiple fronts, is through commando actions on WWII-type scale and better border area management.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Rahul M » 10 Nov 2011 03:32

rajrang wrote:
Singha wrote:the martial race thing has been debunked as british era myth.



Yet the Indian army continues to maintain units composed of martial people Do they know something that we in BR do not?

Indian army maintains units of both so called martial and non martial people. the ethnic regiments that were inherited from BIA were mostly allowed to maintain their zone of recruitment to maintain unit cohesion. post independence units recruit from throughout India.

hunairgolis, but you have to agree that this theory and paki adoption of it is a major source of entertainment for us and I guess the army as well. :mrgreen:

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Christopher Sidor » 10 Nov 2011 12:29

adityadange wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Yes but what if they already moved men equipment and rations using the railway and using the gains like in 1962 they declare ceasefire. The damage would be done then right.

No way we can preemptively take out the railway lines before the conflict starts as that will us declaring war.


yes but how much stores they are able to keep near border? maybe for supply for 1 month/2 month? what after that? they will need huge warehouses to for adequate quantity right? if they build such buildings then:
1. we will get alarmed (i suppose we already are alarmed and closely monitoring them)
2. during war these buildings will be easy targets for our missiles. so what purpose they will serve- testing indian missile's CEP??


The 1962 war lasted for approximately one month.
Officially the 1971 war lasted for approximately half a month. The guerrilla component of this war waged by Mukti-Bahmi against the Pakis lasted longer much longer.
Officially the 1965 war lasted more than one month.

In modern war 1 or 2 months is more than enough, especially if the belligerents are armed with nukes. We will not be able to take out this railway line before the 2nd sino-india war starts. By this time it is expected that china would have amassed sufficient war materials to make the usage of this railway line redundant for at least a few weeks.

We could not detect the intrusion of the so called pakistani irregular soldiers recently. China with its more massive resources and capabilities will be a tougher case as compared to Pakistan. Not insurmountable but difficult.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby amol.p » 10 Nov 2011 13:34

Renegade China soldiers 'killed' after Jilin emergency

Three Chinese soldiers who fled their barracks armed with a rifle and hundreds of bullets are reported to have been killed.

A fourth soldier who also fled from the Jilin city base was captured by police, state media reported.

The deaths were confirmed by officials on a microblog website, and the escape was reported by the Communist Party mouthpiece, the People's Daily.

But later, reports on both websites appeared to have been removed

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-15669501

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby MN Kumar » 10 Nov 2011 18:13

India sees China as de facto competitor: Chinese military
BEIJING: Terming India's proposal of "massive up-gradation" of defence infrastructure along the Sino-Indian border as "bold moves", Beijing on Thursday said it implied that New Delhi was "starting to treat China as a de facto competitor".

Calling it India's repositioning of its national security strategy, the People's Liberation Army (PLA) said it would be the largest such mobilisation since the Sino-Indian border clashes of 1962.

Reacting for the first time to reports of Indian defence infrastructure up-gradation, the PLA daily said within five years, India is set to deploy 90,000 more soldiers and raise four new divisions along its borders with China.

The Chinese military daily also noted that India was in the final phase of choosing a new fighter for its air force in what is said to be the world's largest defence deal.

Referring to New Delhi's decision in October to deploy BrahMos cruise missiles against China, the daily said this would be "the first time it has taken such a step with offensive tactical missiles".

India is also pushing for its first joint air force and naval exercises with Japan, which Indian defense minister A K Antony revealed during his visit to Japan last week, it said.

There were also discussions proposing trilateral dialogue involving India, US and Japan that experts said were aimed at keeping China in check and Beijing has not commented on the matter, it said.

But the PLA daily said India's moves appear to be more political rather than military objectives.

"China has always adhered to the principle of 'peaceful rise'. But this has been misinterpreted by some countries as a 'rising threat'," it said.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby chackojoseph » 10 Nov 2011 22:25



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