China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby rajrang » 09 Jan 2012 00:04

SagarAg wrote:India does a U-turn, to send small military team to China

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/India-does-a-U-turn-to-send-small-military-team-to-China/articleshow/11406178.cms

According to me its a very welcome and mature step on part of India. :mrgreen:


I am sorry I do not agree. India must give China a "consequence" for their misbehavior.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby rajrang » 09 Jan 2012 00:08

Perhaps India should begin stapling visas for all Chinese on the grounds they are not a free people, they live in a dictatorship. (We do not have to do this for people living in other dictatorships.)

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby narmad » 09 Jan 2012 05:51

Posting in full

China did not expect India to give up so easily in 1962
Pratishtha Ingale, TNN | Jan 9, 2012, 03.30AM IST

NAGPUR: China did not expect India to give in so easily in the 1962 war, so much so that the People's Liberation Army (PLA) overran Indian posts and reached deep into Tezpur in the plains of Assam, said Colonel (retd) Abhay Patwardhan. He was delivering a lecture as part of a series organized at the Dharampeth College of Arts.

Even fifty years after the war, scars of the debacle remain fresh and the ex-serviceman came up with some rare declassified documents related to the war. Addressing a small audience of mainly senior citizens, Colonel Patwardhan showed a letter citing an admission by then Chinese Premier Chou En-lai to a veteran journalist. Chou En-lai had gone on record saying Chinese leaders were surprised at the feeble resistance of the Indian Army.
Patwardhan, now a defence analyst, also showed a telegram shot off to US President John F Kennedy by Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, in which the latter pleaded for more help from the superpower. As the PLA was over running post after post, Nehru sent the frantic cable depicting the situation and asked for jet fighters and transport planes to stem the Chinese tide.
Nehru's telegram mentions India was grateful for the help it earlier received from the US. He says that Bomdila, the headquarters of North Easter Frontier Agency (NEFA), was already surrounded by the Chinese and Indian forces amounting to two divisions (18 infantry battalions) were fighting a grim battle. Nehru had expressed uncertainty about how many of them would be able to find their way back safely to the Corps headquarters in Tezpur. Nehru added for emphasis that the Chinese forces were heading toward Leh and there was nothing to stop them after that.
Patwardhan brought memories of the war alive with his presentation to an audience that might have only heard radio broadcasts as teenagers as that time. A 1971 war veteran himself, Patwardhan was 15 years old at the time. He also showed a picture depicting an Indian jawan cooking in a makeshift kitchen, showing how the Army was low on rations besides other equipment.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 09 Jan 2012 06:17

rajrang wrote:Perhaps India should begin stapling visas for all Chinese on the grounds they are not a free people, they live in a dictatorship. (We do not have to do this for people living in other dictatorships.)


My response to this Off topic question is linked below
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6283&p=1223885#p1223885

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby krisna » 09 Jan 2012 21:52

China launches Asia's largest helicopter
China's largest-ever civil helicopter Thursday got certification from the civil aviation administration, the country's civil aviation authority, People's Daily reported.

The move marks the official approval for the 13-tonne AC313, Asia's largest helicopter, to enter the market, said the Aviation Industry Corp of China (AVIC), which developed and manufactured the helicopter.


The aircraft focuses on designs of maintainability, life reliability, indemnification and life cycle efficiency, and meets international safety standards, underlining China's abilities in the research and development (R&D) of large helicopters.
AC313 is also world's first civil helicopter to receive an A-category airworthiness certificate at an altitude of 4,500 meters, the AVIC said.

The aircraft can be deployed for emergency rescue operations, forest fire prevention, transport, offshore operations, medical aid, sightseeing and business trips, the AVIC said.


Image

The helicopter design by 2008,
prototype and trial in end of 2009
first flight march 18 2010 on google search.
there are more details regarding tech ones which I dont understand.


PS- this is civilian helicopter not sure whether it fits into this dhaaga but has uses in chinese occupied Tibet considering its potential implications in military.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby tsarkar » 09 Jan 2012 23:03

^^ French Super Frelon, first flew 1962, sold by the French to China 1977. Retired everywhere else, like their An-12 copies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C3%A9ros ... per_Frelon
SAAF discovered Super Frelon performances were excellent at sea level, but the helicopter performances were worse than SAAF Pumas performances at high and dry places. During the bush war the helicopter proved its poor cargo carrying capacity, being outperformed by SA.330L Puma helicopters.
BTW original engine 1570 hp Turboméca Turmo IIIC new engine 1200 hp P&W. Will do great at Tibet :rotfl:

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Boreas » 09 Jan 2012 23:47

Ahhh it always was the ugliest of the 60's bunch..

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby pankajs » 10 Jan 2012 00:18

Strong navy protects interests
The three trial runs of China's first aircraft carrier, the refitted Varyag, in 2011 marked a milestone in Chinese navy's development. But they also drew sharp reactions from some countries intent on raising false alarms.
Varyag's trial runs demonstrate the level of the navy's modernization. Regarded as the symbol of modern naval power, aircraft carriers are a combination of a wide range of technologies, including shipbuilding and aviation. China developed its first aircraft carrier thanks to the concerted efforts of its scientific research sectors, and it reflects the country's comprehensive strength.
But despite having Varyag, China is far from completing its navy's modernization. Naval modernization is an inclusive concept, which includes applying latest technologies to navy ships to fulfill their battle requirements and maritime security needs.
Since naval modernization is a complicated and long-term process, the Chinese navy will not leap forward by just adding Varyag to its fleet. Besides, the navy's modernization is rooted in the comprehensive modernization of Chinese society and will progress accordingly.
On the road to its modernization, the navy is bound to encounter twists and turns. China is the largest developing country with a weak industrial foundation and less advanced technologies, especially military technologies. And since Western countries have banned the exports of advanced weapons and technologies to China for years, the Chinese navy has to grope its way toward modernization.
China pursues peaceful development and a national defense policy that is defensive in nature.
Despite the huge amount of assets and large number of personnel worldwide, China has not built a single military base outside its own territory in stark contrast to the US that has more than 1,000 military bases across the world. In this sense, Western accusations against China are groundless, for we know which country is actually disturbing the world order and unsettling certain regions.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Vipul » 10 Jan 2012 04:28


SagarAg
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby SagarAg » 10 Jan 2012 04:38

^^ Bring it on :twisted: :twisted:

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Kartik » 10 Jan 2012 08:13

krisna wrote:China launches Asia's largest helicopter

The helicopter design by 2008,
prototype and trial in end of 2009
first flight march 18 2010 on google search.
there are more details regarding tech ones which I dont understand.


PS- this is civilian helicopter not sure whether it fits into this dhaaga but has uses in chinese occupied Tibet considering its potential implications in military.


it certainly helps when you have a Super Frelon to use as the base helo from which to begin the "new" design.

Flight Global article


The aircraft is based on the Harbin Z-8 military helicopter, a derivative of the Aerospatiale SA321 Super Frelon that first flew in 1962
.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby SKrishna » 10 Jan 2012 09:51

But who or what might wake up the Kumbhakarna from his slumber in Delhi?

C. Raja Mohan on Washington’s new defence strategy

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Kanson » 10 Jan 2012 10:45




Earlier Bharat Verma and now Colonel Anil Athale talking about 2012 as date for Chinese attack.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby SaiK » 10 Jan 2012 15:44

^exactly the reason we need ICBMs that influence the world rather just zonal specific Agni 5. When flight test the A6, the world will wake up and start joining to question about China's growing military nuisance.

If they begin attack.. better prepare for two things:
1. Pakistan joining in.. so, don't waste time.. look to flip a button to go MAD.
2. Get the numbers increasing on UCAVs and UAVs to monitory troupe movements - satellites should also augment here.
3. IAF be ready with all assets - the mountains needs IAF.

The faster IAF increases their squadron numbers, the better is the feeling for us.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Yogesh » 10 Jan 2012 17:07

SKrishna wrote:But who or what might wake up the Kumbhakarna from his slumber in Delhi?

C. Raja Mohan on Washington’s new defence strategy



Is it only me or some probelem with this page...every time I try to open this url my web browser hangs up :(( (I am using IE by the way!)

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_19648 » 10 Jan 2012 17:14

More than ICBM, if an attack is imminent, India needs roads and border infrastructure to repel such attacks. Such infra is in place but still needs a lot of work. Agni ICBM is nowhere near to be operational and the Chinese plan would be limited attacks as mentioned in the article, more of quick attacks and then withdraw, giving it a flare-up look and feel. Such wars will be conventional and no party would want to go nuclear maybe. India has sufficient strength to repel such misadventures but only if more attention is paid to border infra and equipping the IA with modern howitzers et all, that would spare much pain to fight such wars. I still don't get the analogy of not developing border infra in fear that Chinese might use them even so many years after 1962, and only some 100 km stretch has been built.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby koti » 10 Jan 2012 17:54

Yogesh wrote:
SKrishna wrote:Is it only me or some probelem with this page...every time I try to open this url my web browser hangs up :(( (I am using IE by the way!)

:lol:
Try something more user friendly like Chrome or Opera.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby koti » 10 Jan 2012 17:59

Ivanev wrote:More than ICBM, if an attack is imminent, India needs roads and border infrastructure to repel such attacks. Such infra is in place but still needs a lot of work. Agni ICBM is nowhere near to be operational and the Chinese plan would be limited attacks as mentioned in the article, more of quick attacks and then withdraw, giving it a flare-up look and feel. Such wars will be conventional and no party would want to go nuclear maybe. India has sufficient strength to repel such misadventures but only if more attention is paid to border infra and equipping the IA with modern howitzers et all, that would spare much pain to fight such wars. I still don't get the analogy of not developing border infra in fear that Chinese might use them even so many years after 1962, and only some 100 km stretch has been built.

There is nothing that can be done in a years time that can significantly alter the result.
The ramped up LACM production and the will to accept significantly higher casualties can probably save some face.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby RKumar » 10 Jan 2012 18:23

^^
In this case produce INSAS/LMG/grenades/ammo/warm cloths/shoes/food in large quantities and store it on advance locations ..so that infantry can fire/use these without second thought of running out unlike 1962.

Everything else is luxury stuff in the end... e.g. Vietnam war

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby rohitvats » 10 Jan 2012 18:26

Interesting that he should mention June-July period. Monsoon during this period do not allow large scale maneuvers in the plans and hence, India is that much better off in the plains of Punjab. Though, PA might give some kind of "support" in the mountainous regions.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_19648 » 10 Jan 2012 18:53

While the report is good, it doesn't state anything more than the usual line of thought being published in the newspapers. Giving a date and a title of probable Chinese attack is a bogey in itself. The report though serves good in bringing notice to the important issue of defense modernization and bogey sometimes do work in such cases.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby SaiK » 11 Jan 2012 04:04

see.. this is exactly we want to avoid no? like I told you so! and many people told you all so!.. yeah, we are not discussing of chances or capabilities.. Just the intention is quite strong, and that is enough for preparations.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby mikehurst » 11 Jan 2012 09:48

But seriously, why would China want to attack now. Having capacity is great, but what would be the purpose. By the way this and the next year is a crucial period for China with the change over in the top leadership; as well as the risk of economic contagion spreading throughout the region. For example look at the fall in real estate prices, and especially the flood of money that was released in 2008-09 which now will have consequences. Adding in this flux, a war with India, just makes a complex situation more complex for China.

Further, a war as is being talked about, will be a limited war on the lines of the 1962 adventure. If this is true, in my humble opinion, any gains by China will be off-set by serving the purpose of completely focusing Indian will, capability and attention to the then clear and present danger of China. Also the re-armament process will cause India to enter into stronger relationships with USA. Further aggression by China will increase ASEAN fears, and drive them into the hands of the loose alliance of India-Russia-USA.

These articles are at best attempts to raise awareness and influence the re-orientation of citizens’ threat perspective from Pakistan to China and at worst naked fear-mongering.

Mike.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby abhischekcc » 11 Jan 2012 14:35

China attacks India only when US is distracted by another war. This happened in 1962 and 1998. If China is preparing for a mid-2012 war, then it means they expect US to be embroiled in another war during that period - most likely in Iran.

That gives you the timeline of war against Iran - mid-2012,

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby aniket » 11 Jan 2012 14:53

In a way 2012 is a perfect time for China to attack,it is before the Arihant and her sister subs are inducted and are considered fully operational,before the Navy inducts any big ships or subs,before aircraft strength is ramped up with LCA,MMRCA,FGFA,MCA,UAV's,UCAV's,Mi-17's,LCH and many more.Also major border projects won't be completed by then,production of Brahmos,Nag,Agni-3,Akash,Agni-5 etc won't exactly be top notch.The Army also will be going through new challenges like raising new divisions,artillery purchases etc.In a situation like this China could do a "Kargil" on us,seize Arunachal Pradesh,undermine India's influence in the UNSC,ASEAN etc.Also if China humiliates India,countries like Vietnam and Japan will think twice about messing with it.The South China Sea dispute will literally crumble as countries will be afraid of China.Also the US would be distracted by Iran.
Just my 2 cents.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Misraji » 11 Jan 2012 15:07

^^^
We really should stop this stupidity.
War may happen or may not.
However the above reason is not the reason why nations go to war.
(With the possible exception of TSPA)

Armed forces modernization is always an ongoing process.
There is nothing really special in how we are beefing up our defenses.

Every other month we have some anal-yst predicting when its going to happen.
Its turning out to be the like the end of the world predictions that I have heard for 1995, 2000, 2012 etc.

--Ashish

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Singha » 11 Jan 2012 15:10

last I heard it was supposed to summer-autumn 2011 before snows blocked the passes.
now 2012 spring is on anvil...

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby VinayG » 11 Jan 2012 15:28

Chinese tank units training in snow conditions in Xinjiang

an armored regiment under the Xinjiang Military Area Command (MAC) of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) took its troops to the snowy Tianshan Mountains to practice maneuvering, coordination, protection and resistance in lifelike battlefield environment set in complicated area, so as to enhance its troops’ mobile operation ability in arctic-alpine mountainous area

tushar_m

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby tushar_m » 11 Jan 2012 17:59

problems in pakistan is army ready ????

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Christopher Sidor » 11 Jan 2012 21:09

mikehurst wrote:But seriously, why would China want to attack now. Having capacity is great, but what would be the purpose. By the way this and the next year is a crucial period for China with the change over in the top leadership; as well as the risk of economic contagion spreading throughout the region. For example look at the fall in real estate prices, and especially the flood of money that was released in 2008-09 which now will have consequences. Adding in this flux, a war with India, just makes a complex situation more complex for China.

Further, a war as is being talked about, will be a limited war on the lines of the 1962 adventure. If this is true, in my humble opinion, any gains by China will be off-set by serving the purpose of completely focusing Indian will, capability and attention to the then clear and present danger of China. Also the re-armament process will cause India to enter into stronger relationships with USA. Further aggression by China will increase ASEAN fears, and drive them into the hands of the loose alliance of India-Russia-USA.

These articles are at best attempts to raise awareness and influence the re-orientation of citizens’ threat perspective from Pakistan to China and at worst naked fear-mongering.

Mike.

China invaded Tibet, in Oct-1950, when it was sending troops inside Korea to fight against the Americans. The reason given was "China is a neighbor of Korea". This is similar to what the Pakhis say w.r.t Afghanistan. It attacked India also during the Oct-1962, when the Cuban missile crisis was at its peak. So if we are expecting the chinks to behave rationally or follow logic, then we are living in a dream world.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Don » 13 Jan 2012 10:24

MBT 2000 for export only

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby rohitvats » 13 Jan 2012 10:40

In the 3rd pic, one can see what looks like a/c placed behind the turret within the grills. I think something similar will happen if IA opts for ECS aka a/c for T-90. Shows the acute limitation of space inside the russian design philosophy. That thing is going to glow like a sun when seen from a NVD/TI.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Singha » 13 Jan 2012 11:05

in that quadrant the engine is going to be hot anyway. note - it seems to be a AC not a more powerful APU for silent watch.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby rohitvats » 13 Jan 2012 12:53

^^^My point was that even when the tank is in silent mode and running the electricals on APU, that a/c is going to glow like a christmas tree.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 14 Jan 2012 08:46

rohitvats wrote:In the 3rd pic, one can see what looks like a/c placed behind the turret within the grills. I think something similar will happen if IA opts for ECS aka a/c for T-90. Shows the acute limitation of space inside the russian design philosophy. That thing is going to glow like a sun when seen from a NVD/TI.


I can see a little face peering out from under the main gun in the 2nd pic, so I expect the wiper-equipped periscope in the 5th pic is the one on the turret next to the machine gun.

The sloped turret sides look nice but the inside is likely to be cramped and the tank appears susceptible to top attack.

Why would the Chinese put a huge a/c outside the tank for use in the world's coldest desert? For export to dealest plostitute maybe?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Austin » 14 Jan 2012 11:14

shiv wrote:Why would the Chinese put a huge a/c outside the tank for use in the world's coldest desert? For export to dealest plostitute maybe?


May be to keep things warm inside must be a heater cum AC ?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Singha » 14 Jan 2012 11:20

AC by definition has a heating mode also. its the dilli style desert coolers (a straw mat with water running down and air blowing through it) that can only cool.

which brings me to my next question. if T90xyz in our hands has neither a AC or a APU, how are they going to operate in the icy cold tibet nights ? or is there a russian jugaad way to warm the insides using air flowing in over the hot engines? (not useful when engines are shut though)

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Austin » 14 Jan 2012 11:26

How did the T-72 and other older tanks Vijayanta ,T-55 etc of IA operated all these while ? They never had AC/heater AFAIK

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Singha » 14 Jan 2012 11:29

maybe we never fought in the day when it gets 45-50C inside per media reports? maybe we never had the extended kind of zipped up advances seen in Iraq where columns of tanks would move for hours in one shot through the desert?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Austin » 14 Jan 2012 11:54

Hmm i think if any thing else we would have rather been trained to fight during the day then at night , the TI and 3rd Gen IR thing is just a recent trend and even now many T-72 dont have it, they will be fighting with some discomfort or probably getting used to extreme heat or cold or just using a small fan :D


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