China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

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Austin
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Austin » 15 Mar 2012 09:14

Don , The lada is a single hull slimmer sub , the Kilo and Yuan are double hull and bigger design ( bigger by size not by endurance ) , it does have some lada influence like rudder on sail and the slit for free flooding but over all it has more Kilo influence.

Most certainly strong Rubin influence on the design and typical rubin trademark ....if Yuan turns out as good as Kilos then it would be a good achievement for Chinese.

Does Yuan have Western System ? I read of German Motors and French Sonars/Optics ?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Don » 15 Mar 2012 13:32

Austin wrote:Don , The lada is a single hull slimmer sub , the Kilo and Yuan are double hull and bigger design ( bigger by size not by endurance ) , it does have some lada influence like rudder on sail and the slit for free flooding but over all it has more Kilo influence.

Most certainly strong Rubin influence on the design and typical rubin trademark ....if Yuan turns out as good as Kilos then it would be a good achievement for Chinese.

Does Yuan have Western System ? I read of German Motors and French Sonars/Optics ?


Hi Austin, I think the Yuan has a domestic propulsion but the previous Song class has a German Diesel engine and propulsion system.
I would consider Song, Yuan and the new Qinq to be quiet submarines. The Ming and Romeo are very noisy and there are still about 17 Ming and 1 Romeo still in service with the PLAN. As for the sonars the French have supplied TSM 2233 ELEDONE / DSUV-22 and Thales TSM 2255 / DUUX-5 in the past. The sonar in Yuan is probably a mix development of French, Russian and domestic tech.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... a/song.htm

Incorporating a German propulsion system and advanced hydrodynamic design, the Song-class is said to be as quiet as the American Los Angles nuclear submarines.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Austin » 15 Mar 2012 13:49

Don , not surprising since Diesel-Electric submarine on battery and slow speed tend to be quieter then most nuclear submarine out there.

BTW how do the french supply sonar and other kit supplied by Germany , isnt china under some arms embargo from West ?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Don » 15 Mar 2012 13:57

Austin wrote:Don , not surprising since Diesel-Electric submarine on battery and slow speed tend to be quieter then most nuclear submarine out there.

BTW how do the french supply sonar and other kit supplied by Germany , isnt china under some arms embargo from West ?

Oh you be surprise how much tech China is still getting from the Europeans especially those "dual tech" for example the Dauphin aka Z-9 helicopter tech and the new upcoming Z-15/EC 175. The French are even designing a new engine for the helicopter which will be built in China so it can be used by the Chinese military.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Austin » 15 Mar 2012 15:45

Yeah Dual use tech is one way to get around military sanctions , I remember reading some of the dual use tech that China got from US satellite was used to upgrade their missile guidance , atleast that is what Congress was saying officially.

Isnt the Z-9 and Z-15 are just reverse engineer Western stuff for Military applications , do the chinese pay any lic fee or they simply clone it.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Don » 15 Mar 2012 15:57

Austin wrote:Yeah Dual use tech is one way to get around military sanctions , I remember reading some of the dual use tech that China got from US satellite was used to upgrade their missile guidance , atleast that is what Congress was saying officially.

Isnt the Z-9 and Z-15 are just reverse engineer Western stuff for Military applications , do the chinese pay any lic fee or they simply clone it.

Z-15 is a join venture not sure about the Dauphin or Z-9

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_EC175

Image
Image

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Austin » 15 Mar 2012 16:08

Looks pretty its an ALH class helicopter but slightly bigger than that. Seems they have a Naval ASW variant for it.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Austin » 16 Mar 2012 12:32

Russian industry wary of Su-35 sale to China
Janes Defence Weekly March 13
Reuben F Johnson JDW Correspondent
Kiev

Key Points

Fears that China could reverse-engineer the Sukhoi Su-35 are threatening a deal on the aircraft, according to Russian sources

The sources believe that China has agreed to buy 48 of the aircraft to allow indigenous manufacturers access to its fire control radar and engine


Russian fears that China would copy its Sukhoi Su-35 fighter aircraft may yet scupper a deal that Moscow and Beijing are reportedly close to signing for an export sale of the fighter to the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).

A source in the Russian government told the influential Moscow daily Kommersant : "The two sides are in practical agreement regarding the delivery to the PRC [People's Republic of China] of 48 Su -35s at a cost of USD4 billion."

However, reports on this sale continue with the additional detail that "an unanticipated obstacle to the deal has emerged. Moscow is requiring that Beijing provide a legally binding guarantee that it will refrain from making reverse engineered copies of the Russian fighter - largely so that this does not create a potential competitor in the market to sell the aircraft to other countries. China is no hurry to provide this guarantee."

Russian sources close to the Federal Service for Military-Technical Co-operation (FSVTS) state that such a guarantee "is an essential condition" of the sale. Some of the same industry sources point ou t that the Chinese have used their assistance from Russia or have copied designs to create competitors for almost every class of combat
aircraft that Russian industry offers for export and they do not want a repeat of this experience.

"No one really believes that the Chinese will actually purchase all 48 Su-35s," one industry representative told IHS Jane's . "They may sign a contract that says they are obligated to take delivery of all 48 but after they have received some number of aeroplanes they will truncate the deal, just as they did with the licence production of the Su -27SK."

China's Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) signed an agreement in 1995 to manufacture 200 Su -27SK aircraft but only ended up building 95 of these models before Russia says it cancelled production and started producing the J-11B, its own "illegal" copy of the aircraft.

The J-11B has also has been offered to export customers as an alternative to the Russian Su -27 and Su-30MK models. Shenyang, industry sources point out, has also created a copy of the Su-33 carrier-capable fighter -developed from one of the T-10K/Su-27K prototypes that remained in Feodosia, Ukraine, after the break-up of the
Soviet Union - in the form of the J-15. Another Chinese fighter designated J-16 and also from Shenyang is claimed by Russia to be an illegal copy of the Su-30MK2.

Some of the same Russian sources recount that the cheaper, simpler fighter designs offered by China have already damaged Russian export prospects. The Chengdu FC-1/JF-17 model, which is a modernised and modified variant on the Mikoyan MiG-21, is credited with ruining chances for a sale of the MiG-29 in Egypt and causing problems with a MiG-29 sale to Myanmar. The issue was so serious that "in July 2010 the Russian Presidential Adminis tration commissioned a study on the subject," said one source.

"We have reliable customers like Venezuela standing in line waiting for this aircraft; they would like to have the Su -35, will purchase all the aircraft that they initially sign for and will not try to copy the aircraft as the Chinese intend to do," said a Russian industry representative. "It makes no sense to let the Chinese jump the queue in front of these buyers.

Some of us would be happier if this deal with Beijing is just never signed because we know how it will end."

Some of the same Russian industry representatives who have experience in working with China on previous sales and licence-production of the Su-27SK/J-11 have previously told IHS Jane's that Chinese manufacturers were looking to acquire the technology that is on board the aircraft, specifically the NIIP Irbis -E passive electronically scanned- array radar and the Saturn/Lyulka 117S jet engine, a next-generation modernisation of the Su-27's AL-31F engine.

The 117S is at present also the powerplant used in the Sukhoi T-50/PAK-FA fifth-generation fighter undergoing flight testing at the Gromov Flight Research Institute in Zhukovskiy. A Chinese request in 2010 to purchase an unspecified number of 117S engines, assumed to be for use in the new Chengdu Machine No 2001/J-20 stealth attack aircraft programme, has not been signed-off.

The assessment of Russian military technology analysts who have been following the history of defence co -operation with China is that Beijing's aerospace industry has hit a technological bottleneck in its work on building copies of the Su-27, which contains a radar and other systems designed more than 30 years ago. The function of the Su -35 purchase, they assert, is to give the Shenyang design team access to more contemporary Russian know-how.

"Preparing to purchase such a large number of these fighters is a clear indication that the Chinese have come up against serious technical problems in the process of their work to make modifications to their aircraft, which are based on the Su-27," said Vasily Kashin, one of the specialists at the Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and

Technologies (CAST), a Moscow think-tank with close ties to Russian industry. "With this purchase they can learn about new-age fighter aircraft [design]," he said. It is not clear what the PLAAF would be receiving in the Su-35 deal in addition to the aircraft (in terms of additional engines, weaponry, spare parts and so on). According to the contract negotiations thus far the Su -35s would cost about USD85 million per unit, which is considerably higher than the USD50 million per aircraft that is supposedly the price charged to the Russian Air Force. Sources close to the intergovernmental commission discussing the sale state that "the price may change in the process of negotiations".

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby wrdos » 16 Mar 2012 13:10

Take it easy. China will not buy any Su-35, or other Russian fighters anymore.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Christopher Sidor » 16 Mar 2012 22:28

^^^^
And pray tell us why ??

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Brando » 16 Mar 2012 22:50

Biggest scare wrt to the Chinese getting the Su-35 is the the fact that they might get access to engine technology and radar technology. The leading edge L-band radar also looks to be innovative on the Su-35 and the Chinese would love to get their hands on that.

I think it's safe to assume that any indication that the Chinese are interested in the Su-35 means their J-11Bs are not nearly as good as advertised or anywhere close to a Su-30MKK or other mature Su-27 variants.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby aniket » 16 Mar 2012 22:57

The fact that J-11's are not as good as advertised is more like public knowledge.But why do the Russians want to sell their fighters to China when they know that the Chinese will try and reverse engineer and copy them ?Are they really that desperate for money ??Also doesn't the SU-35 have many similarities to Su-30MKI ?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Cain Marko » 17 Mar 2012 04:12

Christopher Sidor wrote:^^^^
And pray tell us why ??


Well one reason apart from the IPR issue might be that the Russians are themselves a little insecure about China considering that they have a border dispute with them. Perhaps they can sign off some agreements regarding where the Su-35 can be stationed, and the Russkis might be further assured thanks to the upcoming Pakfa, thereby allowing some breathing room. But I doubt they will chance it, it is one thing for Rosboro to jump up and down but another thing altogether when it comes to the govt. to sign off.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Austin » 18 Mar 2012 22:20


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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Don » 19 Mar 2012 18:59

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-1 ... -says.html

China's Share of Global Arms Imports Falls, Sipri Says

By Daniel Ten Kate - Mar 18, 2012

China, the world’s top weapons importer for much of the past decade, fell to fourth from second on an annual list from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute as it produces more arms at home.

China received 5 percent of the volume of international transfers of “major conventional weapons” from 2007 to 2011, Sipri said in a report released today. The total was half that of India, which last year overtook China as the world’s largest recipient of arms, and less than South Korea and Pakistan.

“In certain sectors such as combat aircraft, with the exception of certain parts like engines, China is able to put together these systems largely from their own indigenous base now,” Paul Holtom, director of Sipri’s arms transfer program, said by phone. “India is still struggling there.”

China is set to increase military spending 11 percent this year as rising economic interests, territorial disputes and expanding global commitments drive demand for warships, missiles and fighter jets. Defense outlays of more than $100 billion per year are second only to the U.S., which along with Europe has maintained an arms embargo against the leadership in Beijing since a 1989 crackdown against protesters.

The volume of worldwide arms transfers in 2007-2011 was 24 percent higher than in 2002-2006, the report said. The Asia- Pacific region led the world, accounting for 44 percent of arms imports. It was followed by Europe at 19 percent, the Middle East at 17 percent and the Americas at 11 percent.

China Exports Double
China’s arms exports nearly doubled in 2007 to 2011 from five years earlier, Sipri said, making it the world’s sixth biggest supplier after the United Kingdom. About two-thirds of China’s weapons were sold to neighboring Pakistan, it said, including 50 JF-17 combat aircraft, 203 tanks and three warships.

Asia-Pacific spending on fighters, missiles and other equipment is set to grow an average 4.2 percent annually to $114 billion in 2016, according to Frost & Sullivan. China’s defense budget alone may rise 14 percent each year through 2015, according to Goldman Sachs Group Inc.

India last week said it will increase defense spending by 13 percent next year to 1.93 trillion rupees ($38.4 billion) as it seeks to counter China’s buildup.

India’s purchases range from naval to aircraft to ground forces, Holtom said, including Russian-made 120 Su-30MK and 16 MiG-29K fighter jets. Paris-based Dassault Aviation SA (AM) is in final talks on a contract to supply at least 126 Rafale combat planes to India to clinch the first-ever export deal for the jet, Chief Executive Officer Charles Edelstenne said March 9.

‘Status Element’
Brazil and South Africa are also stepping up weapons purchases, reflecting the emergence of middle-income powers on the global stage, Holtom said. Brazil’s orders of 4 Scorpène class submarines, a nuclear-powered submarine, and 50 transport helicopters will contribute to a “dramatic increase” in imports in the coming years, Sipri said.

“There is a status element there as well as an ability to project power over distance,” Holtom said. “The emerging powers desire to be seen having the equipment of a power, and in some of those cases it’s upgrading and modernizing from Cold War-era equipment.”

The U.S. remains the world’s largest exporter of military equipment, accounting for 30 percent of arms deliveries between 2007 and 2011, followed by Russia at 24 percent, the report said. The Pentagon is asking for $613.9 billion next year, which also includes $88.5 billion in supplemental spending for wars.

Stockholm-based Sipri, founded in 1966, conducts research into conflict, armaments, arms control and disarmament, according to its website. A substantial part of its funding comes from the Swedish government, it said.

The institute says it measures the volume of arms moved around the world using an index that is “based on the known unit production costs of a core set of weapons and is intended to represent the transfer of military resources rather than the financial value of the transfer.”

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Don » 20 Mar 2012 18:55

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-17433630


March 2012 Last updated at 12:05 ET Share this pageEmail Print Share this page

India behind 24% jump in world arms trade

India's spending on imported weapons was behind a 24% growth in the global arms trade over the last five years, a Sweden-based think tank says.

The country accounted for 10% of all arms imports in the period, the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (Sipri) says.

India has gone on a major defence spending spree as it seeks to modernise its armed forces.

China, the former top arms importer, now builds more of its own weapons.

"India's imports of major weapons increased by 38% between 2002-06 and 2007-11," the Sipri study said.

It was "the world's largest recipient of arms, accounting for 10% of global arms imports" in the last five years, the report said.

India's defence spending will rise by 17% in the financial year 2012-13, Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee said last week, announcing the government's latest budget.

In the last five years, India has bought combat aircraft from Russia and the UK and recently announced a $20bn (£12bn) deal with France to buy fighter jets.

India would continue to dominate the arms-buying market, Sipri said, with major purchases still in the pipeline.

The top five arms importers were all from the Asia region, Sipri said: India was followed by South Korea (6% of imports), China and Pakistan (both 5%) and Singapore (4%).

China, which in 2006-07 was the largest arms importer, has now become a major weapons exporter, the world's sixth largest behind the US, Russia, Germany, France and Britain.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_20617 » 20 Mar 2012 19:44

Don wrote:India would continue to dominate the arms-buying market, Sipri said, with major purchases still in the pipeline.

The top five arms importers were all from the Asia region, Sipri said: India was followed by South Korea (6% of imports), China and Pakistan (both 5%) and Singapore (4%).

[b]China, which in 2006-07 was the largest arms importer, has now become a major weapons exporter, the world's sixth largest behind the US, Russia, Germany, France and Britain.


When will we stop importing? :oops:

When will we start exporting? :)

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby tejas » 20 Mar 2012 20:03

^^^^ Even in communist China and the USSR before it there was competition between design bureaus. In India there are only govt. owned monopolies. These entities will forever be importing weapons and "ToT" and when the next generation of tech. comes about start the cycle over again. Can you imagine a govt. owned company coming out with products like Apple does? If you can't, you have answered your own question.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Samay » 20 Mar 2012 21:16

Although this is not the right thread to discuss this issue, but imagine if we start making hitech weapons with cutting edge technologies on our own, say at least 90 percent of the stuff inside in any system is kept indigenous , and this happens as a result of huge investment ,monitoring and support from "politicians".. then what.. ?
our borders will be secured,
we will have a broad strategy to implement military power over the horizon,
a lot of money will be saved,
lots and lots of jobs will be created,
that tech will sprinkle down to other areas in domestic manufacturing, healthcare,education,export et al

but can our political masters play such kind of risky game facing backlash from their specific industrial sponsors?

who cares for future ,all they want is next 5 years of ruling license, which is always given to them free of cost, then they simply arrive at a solution that our borders can be secured by buying weapons , isnt it?

such kind of fantasy dream that one day we will be able to invent and produce weapons on our own cannot come true under current circumstances, the only thing that can change it is sanctions, but no country in this world wants us to invent , thats why we can buy anything today.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Sagar G » 21 Mar 2012 01:19

“In certain sectors such as combat aircraft, with the exception of certain parts like engines, China is able to put together these systems largely from their own indigenous base now,” Paul Holtom, director of Sipri’s arms transfer program, said by phone.


Incidentally that "certain" part is one of the most important part of the fighter jet, China hasn't been able to make one even after years of "R&D" and stealing. Even till date they rely on Russian supplied engines for their "indigenous" jets so I don't see a tremendous leap by them which puts them way ahead of us in this area. Neither they have been able to make a reliable fighter engine nor we so we are equals here.

India is still struggling there.”


So is China.

About two-thirds of China’s weapons were sold to neighboring Pakistan, it said, including 50 JF-17 combat aircraft, 203 tanks and three warships.


Oh WOW so impressive !!! It's their garbage dump which is buying their weapons so impressive and a reason to dhoti shiver indeed :roll:

In the last five years, India has bought combat aircraft from Russia and the UK and recently announced a $20bn (£12bn) deal with France to buy fighter jets.


Main reason behind us topping the list and we are catching up fast with our LCA project starting to see the light of the day.

India would continue to dominate the arms-buying market, Sipri said, with major purchases still in the pipeline


True with the MMRCA, missile JV with Israel, howitzer purchases(hopefully) we are going to be on the top of the list for some time to come but the important thing is that we are not just buying stuffs here, parallel R&D programs on all critical technologies are up and running and DRDO is also taking the JV path to shorten the development time and fill the technological gap so I don't see a reason to whine about it each and every time some news like this comes up. We are playing catch up technologically and it will take some time for us to catch up, making fun of our available resources/GOI/Babus all the time is simply disgusting. Members here must also sometimes look for the facts and ground realities for a change unless the sole objective of posting is to increase the post count.

DRDO/HAL/PSU's have said it umpteen times that their first priority is to fullfill the requirements of our armed forces and then if possible look for exports, firstly we need to have a strong technological base even before we start dreaming about exports.

So do we have a strong technological base ??
NO

Unless this NO doesn't become YES I don't see India being able to become a major arms exporter.

Also are we working towards creating a strong technological base ??
YES

So have patience slowly thing will start to fall in place (the process has already begun LCA, Arjun, Akash etc. etc.). I think this is the decade of hardship for us after which we will become independent of arms export.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_20617 » 21 Mar 2012 15:07

Sagar G

India became independent in 1947. We are in 2012 now. That is 65 years of ‘independence’ and we are still importing about 80% of our military requirements.

After 65 years why don’t we have strong technological base? What are the reasons? How do we overcome those obstacles? Do we even have a strategic roadmap? Why don’t we create 10-15 excellent research centres around the country? How about increasing the involvement of private companies?

Britain, France, Germany, Russia, Japan – all these countries suffered very badly in World War 2 and yet they all recovered and are the major producers of military products for donkey years. If they can do it why can’t we?

India can do far better than what it currently does but I suspect the main reason is lack of political support to our scientists. I am aware that up to 1990 we were struggling economically and we could not undertake many programmes due to US sanctions.

We are now producing Tejas plane, Arihant submarine etc but unable to produce Artillery guns! Is producing Artillery guns more difficult than a fighter plane or a nuclear submarine? Our army has been made to wait for Artillery guns for more than 20 years and that is diabolical. If we can’t produce then for god’s sake import them. Pakis now has advantage over us as far as Artillery guns are concerned. I see a clear message from GoI that ‘we will neither make Artillery guns nor will we import’.

All major producers of Artillery guns have been blacklisted. There is a conspiracy to stop Indian military getting the best Artillery guns and there could be internal and external players playing games. Internal players could be political leaders and Babus. Babus can be purchased or blackmailed to stall the process. External players could include Pakistan and China.

The quality of bullet proof jackets given to our military and police is rubbish. I am sure we can buy the best bullet proof jackets for our jawans but we don’t. I am sure we can even produce the best bullet proof jackets in India but we don’t. Why?

Isn’t GoI playing with our security? Isn’t GoI playing with the lives of our brave soldiers?

Even Tejas and Arihant have many foreign components and we have collaborated with foreigners. They are not 100% indigenous products. Until we achieve 100%, we will always depend on other countries and they can twist our arms. They can hike up prices or delay the process or make us struggle with spare parts.

65 years and we are still playing catch up!

Finally, I am NOT interested in increasing my post count. PERIOD. What do I get by doing that? You are talking rubbish here. If you don't have anything better to write then don't write.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 21 Mar 2012 15:15

Shankaraa wrote:Sagar G

India became independent in 1947. We are in 2012 now. That is 65 years of ‘independence’ and we are still importing about 80% of our military requirements.

After 65 years why don’t we have strong technological base? What are the reasons? How do we overcome those obstacles? Do we even have a strategic roadmap? Why don’t we create 10-15 excellent research centres around the country? How about increasing the involvement of private companies?


As a nation we are inferior people. Just not good enough. Look at the West. Look at the Chinese.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Reddy » 21 Mar 2012 15:58

shiv wrote:
Shankaraa wrote:Sagar G

India became independent in 1947. We are in 2012 now. That is 65 years of ‘independence’ and we are still importing about 80% of our military requirements.

After 65 years why don’t we have strong technological base? What are the reasons? How do we overcome those obstacles? Do we even have a strategic roadmap? Why don’t we create 10-15 excellent research centres around the country? How about increasing the involvement of private companies?


As a nation we are inferior people. Just not good enough. Look at the West. Look at the Chinese.

As one gets old and wise they lose patience :)

Shankaraa mate! we lost last couple of centuries… looted, plundered, culture almost destroyed and with heaps of moles/termites set (like jolawallas etc) to tie us down. Keeping this in view, we did pretty well in the past 65 years. You see, when one looks at 65 years in the context of India's history, it is insignificant. We were down for few centuries here and few decades there but eventually got back on our feet. So, 65 years is chicken shit, only thing i will say is, believe in yourself and don't propagate this thought that we are useless and should look at X etc. Sorry for the cliche but, grass is always greener on the other side of the fence or if you prefer, the other line always moves faster. So, as my 8 year old says, just chilax and do your best.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 21 Mar 2012 16:07

The magic words must be said to snap people out of it... :)

First know your place in the universe. Then ask questions.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_20617 » 21 Mar 2012 16:16

shiv wrote:The magic words must be said to snap people out of it... :)

First know your place in the universe. Then ask questions.


Fine, let us keep importing.

Let us be dependent all the time.

Let us bury our head in the sand.

Let us not improve things in our favour.

Let us play catch up for next 65 years.

Anything else I have forgotten?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Sagar G » 21 Mar 2012 17:11

Shankaraa

Your entire post contains nothing that most of the people here don't know about and you also answer your questions yourself so I don't know what exactly your problem is ???

Finally, I am NOT interested in increasing my post count. PERIOD. What do I get by doing that? You are talking rubbish here. If you don't have anything better to write then don't write.


Oh yeah your posts definitely add quality to this thread, so keep up the good work and enlighten us more about why SDRE's are inferior to the rest of the world.

Reddy wrote:Sorry for the cliche but, grass is always greener on the other side of the fence or if you prefer, the other line always moves faster.


Bingo!!! The key here is being patient and keeping your eye on the target.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Reddy » 21 Mar 2012 17:18

Shankaraa wrote:
shiv wrote:The magic words must be said to snap people out of it... :)

First know your place in the universe. Then ask questions.

Fine, let us keep importing.
Let us be dependent all the time.
Let us bury our head in the sand.
Let us not improve things in our favour.
Let us play catch up for next 65 years.
Anything else I have forgotten?

Okay! looking at all your other posts, this looks like a flame bait. Sorry, i am bit slow realising it.

Sadly, you'll be banned before someone bites. Or, did i already bite it. Anyhow, i'll go with the option of waiting for another 65 years and will be still happy that my grand children will be doing well. You see, few years back i have seen one more poster who kept saying that chinese plan for next 50 years or more, and we should do the same, of course no one knew what that plan actually was (the aim was world dominance, no brainer there). So, i think India has a plan too for next 65 years, and looking at the precedence we'll do much better than china (i am talking about citizens not the politburo).

Anyhow, have fun while you can here.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_20617 » 21 Mar 2012 17:28

Reddy wrote: Okay! looking at all your other posts, this looks like a flame bait. Sorry, i am bit slow realising it.

Sadly, you'll be banned before someone bites. Or, did i already bite it. Anyhow, i'll go with the option of waiting for another 65 years and will be still happy that my grand children will be doing well. You see, few years back i have seen one more poster who kept saying that chinese plan for next 50 years or more, and we should do the same, of course no one knew what that plan actually was (the aim was world dominance, no brainer there). So, i think India has a plan too for next 65 years, and looking at the precedence we'll do much better than china (i am talking about citizens not the politburo).

Anyhow, have fun while you can here.


What did I say that was unpatriotic?

Why do you feel that I should be banned?

Is talking about a self - dependent India a crime on BRF?

I object to your post.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 21 Mar 2012 17:44

Shankaraa wrote:
Don wrote:India would continue to dominate the arms-buying market, Sipri said, with major purchases still in the pipeline.

The top five arms importers were all from the Asia region, Sipri said: India was followed by South Korea (6% of imports), China and Pakistan (both 5%) and Singapore (4%).

[b]China, which in 2006-07 was the largest arms importer, has now become a major weapons exporter, the world's sixth largest behind the US, Russia, Germany, France and Britain.


When will we stop importing? :oops:

When will we start exporting? :)


Shankaraa, this was the post that provoked patriotic thoughts in you and made you ask about a self-dependent India.

This is the China military watch thread and a Chinese comes on here and makes a post showing that China, that used to be a net importer of arms till a few years ago is now a net exporter. Did you suddenly realize what was happening in India for 65 years after reading that post on this thread and then have all those patriotic thoughts and questions?

They are mostly off topic for this thread. In fact even Pakistan exports more than we do. But again OT.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Don » 21 Mar 2012 19:15

CNN is turning this into China vs India thing.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/21/world/asi ... cnn_latest

India overtakes China as world's biggest arms importerBy Paul Armstrong, CNN

updated 5:15 AM EDT, Wed March 21, 2012

(CNN) -- India has overtaken China as the world's biggest importer of weapons, with Asian nations the most aggressive consumers of military hardware, a new report says.

Between 2007 and 2011, India's business accounted for 10% of the global arms market, according to data from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI). South Korea was next, accounting for 6% of sales, followed by Pakistan and China (5%) and Singapore (4%).

Siemon Wezeman, a senior analyst with SIPRI, said India's defense spending reflects its regional security concerns and Delhi's global aspirations.

"India procures arms in relation to its tense relationship with Pakistan and increasingly sees China as a potential threat," he told CNN. "It also wants to assert itself as a major regional or even global power."

Much of this expenditure has focused on the modernization of its armed forces with the purchase of fighter jets and warships, according to The Hindu.

Meanwhile, China's relative decline as an arms importer comes at a time when it is increasing its overall defense budget, investing in major projects such as the development of a stealth fighter jet and an aircraft carrier program. Many of these weapons are instead produced domestically.



China boosts military spending

Analysts denounce U.S. strategy to China

'We're building down, China building up' At the National People's Congress earlier this month, Beijing announced plans to increase its military spending by 11.2%, a move some analysts suspect is in response to U.S. plans to increase its military presence in the Pacific -- an assertion it has rejected, saying its spending is in proportion to its economy.

China increases defense spending

"The Chinese government has maintained reasonable and appropriate growth in defense spending on the strength of rapid economic and social development and the steady increase of fiscal revenues," NPC spokesman Li Zhaoxing told reporters in March.

But China's announcement is sure to stoke concerns among some its neighbors.

China regards Taiwan as part of its territory and has vowed to use force against the island if it ever formally sought independence. Beijing has also claimed a significant portion of the South China Sea as its own territorial waters, putting it in conflict with other nations that have made claims on portions of the region.

Wezeman said China has gradually modernized its armed forces and arms industry in the past two decades. He said development of the latter was mainly influenced by an embargo on arms sales to China imposed by European Union nations and the United States after the 1989 Tiananmen Square crackdown.

This, he said, forced China to look to other sources such as Russia for new equipment and licenses to produce weapons itself, which in turn helped to improve its own indigenous arms production capability.

As a result, China has become a major exporter of arms. According to SIPRI, it is now the world's sixth largest seller behind the U.S., Russia, Germany, France and Britain -- with India's long-time foe Pakistan chief among its clients.

Russia's defense industry has been the chief beneficiary of India's custom, according to SIPRI, though France has recently muscled in with new deals to supply submarines in addition to Mirage and Rafale combat aircraft from Dassault.

SIPRI estimates India is likely to spend more than $100 billion on weapons in the next 15 years.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 21 Mar 2012 19:44

http://en.take-off.ru/pdf_to/to19.pdf

Page 36

Chinese Trainer with Russian Pedigree
L-15, Yak 130 analogue

The Chinese military pilot training
programme was high on the agenda
of Airshow China 2010 held in the
southern Chinese city of Zhuhai in
November 2010. The historic context
of the matter was represented by a
rare Hongdu CJ-5 piston-engined
trainer aircraft (a licence-produced
copy of Yakovlev Yak-18 devel-
oped in the Soviet Union in the
early 1950s) and a Chengdu JJ-5
jet trainer (Chinese two-seat variant
of Soviet fighter MiG-17 manufac-
tured in China as J-5). The present
was demonstrated by Hongdu K-8
basic trainers of the Pakistani aero-
batic team Sherdils (PLAAF desig-
nation JL-8) and the future by the
advanced Hongdu L-15 supersonic
combat trainer and Hongdu L-7 pis-
ton-engined initial training plane.
The development of the former
two was heavily facilitated by the
Yakovlev design bureau special-
ists from Russia that consulted its
Chinese partners. That’s why the
L-15 looks like the Russian combat
trainer Yak-130 so much and the L-7
is indistinguishable from the yet-un-
realised Yak-152 design.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby hnair » 22 Mar 2012 04:10

China's status is like this rich dude sitting in a dark alley, slurping down some congee (kanji/rice gruel in non-dronese) while talking to self about how delicious it is, being made by himself. Once a while a stray (but pure breed) dog comes by and the rich dude pours a little congee. Sometimes the dog licks it up but most of the time, gets food it really likes from elsewhere. He also believes that long rap sheet framed behind his desk are university degrees. A picture of peace, compassion and achievement

Compare that to India, who is like this modestly rich gent, standing thoughtfully at the food court, wondering if he should eat from that steel-tiffin he is carrying or not. With world-class chefs frantically waving to get his attention, it is a tough struggle.

Of course Shree Paul Holton of SIPRI understands India's struggles and China's achievements. And yes, we should not underestimate China, 1$/day, 70% poverty..... and the rest.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby VinodTK » 22 Mar 2012 04:51

Shimla
Choppers from China violate Indian airspace

In second of its kind incident in four months, two Chinese helicopters reportedly violated Indian air space along the international border in Kaurik sector in tribal Kinnaur district of Himachal Pradesh.

Indo Tibetan Border Police (ITBP), that guards the international border, has
sent a report of the incident to ministry of home affairs. "Two Chinese helicopters flew into India side report has been sent to ministry of home affairs (MHA)", ITBP deputy inspector general PS Papta told Hindustan Times.

Chinese helicopters were reportedly spotted in the Indian territory on March 16, 2012. The ITBP men patrolling their areas spotted the helicopters with help of binoculars. However, the military and the Indo Tibetan Border Police personnel could not trace any tale signs left by the Chinese helicopters.

Two Chinese helicopters have been seen flying over Kaurik last point on Hindustan-Tibet Road. The helicopters had entered seven kilometers inside Indian boundary before they flew back.
:
:
:

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Nikhil T » 22 Mar 2012 13:47


Philip
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Philip » 22 Mar 2012 14:47

IMR had in an earlier issue details of the Chinese order of battle against us in the Tibetan region.They ijnclude SU-27s,J-seres of aircraft,MBTs,MICVs and a variety of artillery including their 300mm MBRLs amd tactical missiles with ranges upto 300+ km.These are ostensibly meant for knocking out our forward air bases/airstrips and key military comand centres,logistic depots,etc. closer to the border.Over a dozen tunnels into the mountains have also been completed to house elemnets of the PRC's military machine.

Meanwhile in Taoiwan authorities have discovered PRC espionage ops aimed at stealing key US-Tiwanese air defence

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2012-03/D9TKUKK00.htm

Xcpts:
Chinese spies target Taiwan's US-made defenses
By PETER ENAV

When Taiwanese security personnel detained a suspected spy for China at a top secret military base last month, they may have had a sense of deja vu.

Air force Capt. Chiang -- he was identified only by his surname -- was the fourth Taiwanese in only 14 months known to have been picked up on charges of spying for China, from which the island split amid civil war 63 years ago. While Taiwan's Defense Ministry did not disclose details of his alleged offense, his base in the northern part of the island hosts the air force's highly classified radar system and U.S.-made Patriot surface-to-air missiles, both vital to the island's aerial defense.


At the heart of the China's Taiwan espionage efforts are two systems with substantial U.S. technology -- the Lockheed Martin Corp. and Raytheon Co.-built Patriot missile defense system and the Lockheed-designed Po Sheng command and control system.

The Patriot uses sophisticated radar to track incoming aerial threats, then launches high-performance missiles to bring them down. The Po Sheng network -- the Chinese name means Broad Victory -- allows Taiwan's army, air force and navy to exchange battlefield information in real time. That is a big advantage in coordinating responses to the attack China has promised if Taiwan ever moves to make its de facto independence permanent.

Defense expert Arthur Ding of Taiwan's Institute for International Relations said successful penetration of the Patriot system could wreak havoc with Taiwan's air defenses, a key component in turning back any future Chinese attack.

"China wants radar data so they can develop countermeasures," he said. "If you have this data you can jam the system or redirect its missiles."

Former Taiwan Deputy Defense Minister Lin Chong-pin said it is not surprising that China was targeting the Patriot and Po Sheng systems.

"These are several of our key capabilities which have been helped by the U.S.," he said. "They are the main obstacles to seizing Taiwan by force."


rajrang
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby rajrang » 23 Mar 2012 10:44


Philip
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Philip » 23 Mar 2012 13:07

Chinese massive sying.

http://www.businessinsider.com/china-sp ... ses-2012-3

Taiwan Just Uncovered A Massive Chinese Spy Ring Inside Its Military

XCpt:
A Taiwan Air Force Captain is the fourth confirmed person to be caught spying for China within the last two years, reported the Associated Press.

The espionage from within Taiwanese ranks focused on the nation's missile defense and communications systems built with sensitive U.S. technology.

Capt. Chiang was based in the north of Taiwan where the military houses their Lockheed Martin and Raytheon-supplied Patriot missiles along with the island's early warning radar system.

In addition, local media reports translated by the AFP in Taipei said that a retired Taiwanese agent from the Ministry of Justice Investigation Bureau is in police custody for allegedly luring his colleagues to China under the pretext of traveling or doing business. They were then forcibly detained and interrogated on sensitive information, said the Chinese-language United Daily News.

Inside information on Taiwan serves China's long-standing resolve to take back the nation by military force if necessary. The successfully modern island off the southeast coast of China remains independent and resistant to reunification with the mainland since a civil war 63 years ago.

Last year, the Taiwanese army's head of communications and information was also arrested on the charge of spying for China. Taiwanese news reported that Maj. Gen. Lo Hsieh-che was recruited by a Chinese female spy in Bangkok while he was stationed in Thailand. He gave strategic secrets to Beijing and has now been sentenced to life in prison.

The Taiwan defense ministry said at the time that the Maj. Gen. was unlikely to have had access to U.S.-related intelligence. However, as a high-ranking officer he had documents regarding the purchase of the Po Sheng command and control system from American defense contractor Lockheed Martin.

The Po Sheng provides branches of the Taiwanese forces with a shared communication network that is crucial for coordinating military action.

In the event that China launches an attack on Taiwan for not ceding its independence, which China views as rebellious, the Chinese would want to know how to make their target as vulnerable as possible.

Having access to data on Taiwan's radar-enabled missile defenses and communications system would give China a crippling upper hand, as gaining control of the electromagnetic spectrum is a major asset in modern warfare.



Monster Smart Bombs Revealed As Part Of The Taiwan Arms Deal

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/jdams-so ... z1pvKflJeT

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby keshavchandra » 23 Mar 2012 15:17

China’s People’s Liberation Army (PLA) in turn is now proceeding to India’s moves by undertaking its own build-up of offensive airpower capabilities stretching from eastern Ladakh all the way up to the India-Nepal border adjacent to the southwestern portion of the Tibet Autonomous Region.

It means that
A) the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) will realise its tactical objectives on the ground by resorting to massed fire-assaults (against forward-deployed Indian ground forces) delivered by a numerically superior deployed force comprising tactical non-line-of-sight battlefield support missiles (NLOS-BSM) and long-range multi-barrel rocket launchers (MBRL) capable of firing rockets equipped with sensor-fuzed munitions (SGM);
B ) such rocket artillery-based weapons would be employed for the ‘deep battlespace’ in tactical areas that are ideally suited for deployment of such weapons, i.e. the flat, locational deserts around eastern Ladakh and the foothills opposite Uttarakhand State;
C) while increased use will be made of NLOS-BSMs and tactical ballistic missiles (TBM) to neutralise the Indian Air Force’s (IAF) offensive airpower generation capacities that would be located in Jammu & Kashmir (J & K), the PLA Air Force’s (PLAAF) manned combat aircraft backed up by AEW & C platforms would be employed for blunting/neutralising any localised ground offensives (during the contact battle phase) that could be mounted by the Indian Army.

Presently, the IAF’s Western Air Command (WAC) can deploy some 150 combat aircraft of various types within air bases located inside J & K, these being Adampur (capable of housing Mirage 2000Hs, MiG-29B-12s and Jaguar IS), Awantipura (MiG-21 Bisons, MiG-29B-12s and Jaguar IS), Pathankot (MiG-21 Bisons and MiG-27UPGs), Srinagar (Su-30MKIs, MiG-21 Bisons and MiG-27UPGs), Udhampur (MiG-21 Bisons), Leh (MiG-29B-12s and Su-30MKIs) and Thoise (Su-30MKIs)


More details on this Link.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Surya » 23 Mar 2012 18:01

This continues to be one of the worries I have and no one has explained to me how we will survive a surprise missile barrage.

Unless our assets have solid cover to withstand the initial surprise attack we will be in trouble.

and we need lots more Brahmos to hit back at everything they possess - not 10s and 20s.


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