China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby merlin » 23 May 2012 09:06

NRao wrote:China fake parts 'used in US military equipment'

After China, the UK and Canada were found to be the next-largest source countries for fake parts.


Ouch.

China is a no brainer. expected behavior.


And their taller deeper friends in the UK/Canada may be behind the number 2 and 3 rankings.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 23 May 2012 09:16

NRao wrote:China fake parts 'used in US military equipment'

After China, the UK and Canada were found to be the next-largest source countries for fake parts.


Ouch.

China is a no brainer. expected behavior.



What I wonder about is how the Chinese makers of aircraft differentiate between fake and real? If they can, it means that they know exactly which is fake and which is real then it is deliberate state policy to keep the fake ones being sold. That is quite likely knowing that Chinese are intelligent enough to predict that an idiot foreigner how finds out will only dhoti shiver and say "Hey that is Sun Tzu at work"

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby wrdos » 23 May 2012 12:15

Firstly, who tells you that WS10A has a same external dimensions with AL31/F?

Then, sir, you need to redesign the whole plane when something as important as an engine to be replaced. It is more difficult if compared with a car, in fact. You need at least to learn something from the LCA thread to know how much trouble would resulted with a replaced engine at first, please. As both J10A and J11A would be finished mass production within a couple of years, the Chinese authority would be too stupid to consider redesigning them just for adopting a new type of engine.

Repeat once more,
- China has hundreds (each of them) Su-27, Su-30, J-11A, and J-10A flying. Even for their maintenance, the country needs to import Al31 at hundreds level.
- Mass production of both J10A and J11a would be finished within 1 or 2 years, thus no need to redesign them for a new engine
- J10b, J11b, J15,......, the new types of fighters will use domestic made engines. All of them.
- China will no longer import new types of aeroplane engines from Russia, in mass, any more. A time is over.

BTW, remember the story of Su-35 import? I declared similarly when somebody aroused the topic here. China will never import fighters in mass from Russia anymore. Lots of people jumped out to challenge me but now the truth has become more clear.

Please wait and see.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Don » 23 May 2012 22:45

wrdos wrote:Firstly, who tells you that WS10A has a same external dimensions with AL31/F?

Repeat once more,
- China has hundreds (each of them) Su-27, Su-30, J-11A, and J-10A flying. Even for their maintenance, the country needs to import Al31 at hundreds level.
- Mass production of both J10A and J11a would be finished within 1 or 2 years, thus no need to redesign them for a new engine
- J10b, J11b, J15,......, the new types of fighters will use domestic made engines. All of them.
- China will no longer import new types of aeroplane engines from Russia, in mass, any more. A time is over.

BTW, remember the story of Su-35 import? I declared similarly when somebody aroused the topic here. China will never import fighters in mass from Russia anymore. Lots of people jumped out to challenge me but now the truth has become more clear.

Please wait and see.

All J-11B and J-15 are now powered by WS-10A but I think the production by Shenyang Liming Engine Company is only dedicated to Shenyang to power those two types not Chengdu where the J-10's are made but like you said lets wait and see...

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby DavidD » 25 May 2012 04:43

Nice pic of the Varyag, can't believe that old hunk of metal has transformed into something like this:

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2796 ... rt7cru.jpg

As for the engines, China won't truly catch up any time soon. Engine-making represents the very top cutting edge technology in manufacturing, and technology-wise, China isn't close to the top in any major field really. Maybe 10 years from now they'll have something resembling parity, but I don't expect true parity until perhaps decades from now. The WS-10 is a good start, but it's still struggling to compare with 30-40 year old designs.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby svinayak » 25 May 2012 04:46

DavidD wrote:
As for the engines, China won't truly catch up any time soon. Engine-making represents the very top cutting edge technology in manufacturing, and technology-wise, China isn't close to the top in any major field really. Maybe 10 years from now they'll have something resembling parity, but I don't expect true parity until perhaps decades from now. The WS-10 is a good start, but it's still struggling to compare with 30-40 year old designs.

They already have all the tech required for a modern engine. But have not done it

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 25 May 2012 05:51

DavidD wrote:Nice pic of the Varyag, can't believe that old hunk of metal has transformed into something like this:

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2796 ... rt7cru.jpg

As for the engines, China won't truly catch up any time soon. Engine-making represents the very top cutting edge technology in manufacturing, and technology-wise, China isn't close to the top in any major field really. Maybe 10 years from now they'll have something resembling parity, but I don't expect true parity until perhaps decades from now. The WS-10 is a good start, but it's still struggling to compare with 30-40 year old designs.


++1.

I always wished India had bought the same ship. It was worth the risk.

Kudos to China, it is indeed a good looking one.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Austin » 25 May 2012 06:59

Varyag looks any thing but an old ship ...almost looks like a modern USN Carrier ..........is there a Naval Variant of J-10B under development or will they just fly flankers ?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Singha » 25 May 2012 07:05

well compared to the Kuznetsov they have got rid of the huge round TACAN thing. vikramaditya has retained it for unknown reasons.
other than tacan, what are the visible external changes?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 25 May 2012 07:33

DavidD wrote:Nice pic of the Varyag, can't believe that old hunk of metal has transformed into something like this:

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2796 ... rt7cru.jpg


What is amazing is how the fog in the background knows exactly how far it can go to stop before it starts obstructing the view of the ship in the foreground :D

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Surya » 25 May 2012 07:43

looks like a real carrier rather than something modified to carry aircraft

now if it functions as good as it loos...

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby kit » 25 May 2012 12:35

Shows how lots of money and 'dedication' (and of course some stealing ) can do .. Wonder if they made some design changes based on the newer british QE class carriers. Btw i am sure India can do a better job with its Vikrant class.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Singha » 25 May 2012 12:39

fogs come in banks, you can drift in and out of fog.

btw the Kuznetsov class was a dedicated carrier unlike the Kiev class - so no surprises its a wider ship with a more carrierish look. ofcourse the Rus couldnt get over their fetish for outside ASM and SAM arsenal and stuffed in the Granits and 196 SAMs into Kuzzy, which no doubt the PLAN has rationalized by dropping the granits to enlarge the aviation wing space and reducing the SAM armament perhaps to a more reasonable 96.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 25 May 2012 13:50

Singha wrote:fogs come in banks, you can drift in and out of fog.

Photoshop also comes with a fog function that you can turn on or off. 8)

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Singha » 25 May 2012 14:15

touche sire.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby DavidD » 25 May 2012 14:15

kit wrote:Shows how lots of money and 'dedication' (and of course some stealing ) can do .. Wonder if they made some design changes based on the newer british QE class carriers. Btw i am sure India can do a better job with its Vikrant class.


That's very possible, but the Varyag is based on an outdated design and only experiences that other nations are willing to share, while the Vikrant is a new design from the ground up based on decades of India's own carrier operations experience. Maybe China's next, next design can benefit from similar advantages, but that'll be a looong time from now.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby adityadange » 25 May 2012 14:28

few questions:
1. why two "walls" on right side runway? i know it is there to absorb engine heat and flame but adding forward wall doesnt convince. if longer runway is available why cut it short? does it provide facility to queue up third plane for take off?
2. what the tanker is doing behind left side runway "wall" near the building? wouldnt a petrol pump type structure prove more beneficial?
3. is that phased array radar on the building at main deck? the rectangular thing?
4. only two helicoptor takeoff/landing areas on entire runway unless the big white spot on the landing runway is not third one. (there are bunch of people standing near it in sky blue uniform)
5. fitting an AA gun is possible?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Singha » 25 May 2012 15:08

1. I think maybe a place for 3rd a/c to line up for takeoff. perhaps the longer takeoff run possible from there will permit heavier payload?
2. not sure its a tanker. looks more like a control cabin or some type with AC. could be temporary.
3. the radar seems to be same set as the 052C
4. more spots can be painted but imo this ship will only carry max 3-4 light helis for CSAR and plane guard during air ops. no ASW
5. I can see small boxes of crotale type SAMs on right side or bridge and just ahead of the landing strip, plus some behind. should be possible to put in 4 x ciws guns also....remember on ship of the same size the Russians have a theoritical fit of 196 SAMs!!

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby krishnan » 28 May 2012 12:35

Why does the middle block also have divider lines ???

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby jamwal » 28 May 2012 13:23

ship looks nice. No aircraft stationed yet ?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 28 May 2012 18:31

adityadange wrote:few questions:
1. why two "walls" on right side runway? i know it is there to absorb engine heat and flame but adding forward wall doesnt convince. if longer runway is available why cut it short? does it provide facility to queue up third plane for take off?


They are blast deflectors, which allow an aircraft (jet) to go to max power prior to take off. Without them the entire area behind the aircraft would have to be cleared, for no activity could occur there, due to the engine's blast.

krishnan wrote:Why does the middle block also have divider lines ???


There are three blast deflectors, one on the left of the picture and two on the right. The divider markings you mention is the path for the third deflector - right behind the second deflector. #2 and #3 share a common path for take off.

In this particular configuration it allows them to launch three air crafts in a very quick sequence. The USN has done this with four aircrafts - there is a youtube vid if you want to check that out. However, it allows just one to be launched if there are any aircrafts in recovery.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Singha » 28 May 2012 18:45

this the video. but then they have 4 cats to play with, and all 3 take off in a different axis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=689RBtUEdQM
the 4th one is at the extreme side, almost at edge of deck.

here it looks like they cannot launch aircraft off the waist (no ski jump) and need to use the fwd paths only.

with 4 cats a Nimitz class will handily outlaunch any Ski jump carrier on a 2X-3X basis and also permit better fuel & payload ratios. there is no comparison at all. even the CDG which is smaller than Kuznetsov class is a far more survivable platform in autonomous mode due to its organic E2 element and Rafale fighters which can take off with better % of their peak payload and fuel vs the Su33 probably.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 28 May 2012 19:43

See from about 15 secs to about 24: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFk7kEQ5tVo

There is another vid where they test launching 4 aircrafts, could not find it this time around.

However, launching so many, so quickly seems sexy.

One 'lil problem: recovery. You launch 12 aircrafts and most will come back around the same time and there is just one recovery option.

(Aside: Freeze the above vid at 3:52. Check out the emblem on the fin!! Is that what I think it is?)

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Singha » 28 May 2012 20:37

I somehow like these old school tomcat/ Intruder type planes...they look like mostly worked, and if broken could be fixed asap with a hammer and toolbox....not need 100 hrs of downtime for 1 hr in the air due to overbuilt electronic systems and delicate avionics that need AC hangers and vendor team onsite to work.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 28 May 2012 20:54

The F-14 was an accident prone aircraft. I recall reading an interview of a US Carrier Captain saying that the ship left for a tour of duty knowing definitely that at least one of the flight crew would not return. 160 were lost to accidents as per my Auntie Wiki

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Singha » 29 May 2012 06:43

one issue maybe was the manual takeoff with hands on stick. they changed that in F-18 which has auto takeoff with hands off stick.
also the engines of F-14 were considered underpowered and not that great. some proposal to reengine them with F-15 engines got canned due to cost/time reasons.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Paul » 31 May 2012 21:52

Dick Cheney as Def sec in GW-I adminsitration (1991) was intrumental in retiring the F14 Tomcat and let the Hornet rule the carrier decks.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby srai » 02 Jun 2012 09:48

NRao wrote:See from about 15 secs to about 24: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFk7kEQ5tVo

There is another vid where they test launching 4 aircrafts, could not find it this time around.

However, launching so many, so quickly seems sexy.

One 'lil problem: recovery. You launch 12 aircrafts and most will come back around the same time and there is just one recovery option.

...


Check this out about Rafale on how the French employed them from their carrier to assist in aircraft recovery.

Rafale Fox 3 N15 - Operation HARMATTAN

...
Usually, two of the ten Rafales onboard the carrier were configured as buddy-buddy tankers, each with an in-flight refuelling pod under the centreline pylon and two to four drop tanks under the wings. One of them was systematically launched prior to any recovery cycle, ready to give away fuel to any fighter which might have encountered difficul- ties when attempting to trap back onboard the carrier. Another one was ready to be catapulted away, should the situation have got worse.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Kanishka » 02 Jun 2012 14:54

Chinese military spending a 'threat': Japan

Japan on Saturday expressed concern over what it called a lack of transparency in China's massive defence spending, saying the secrecy posed a "threat" to Tokyo.

China's military budget jumped 11.2 percent year on year to $106 billion in 2012, a rise that has caused unease around the region and especially in Tokyo, Japan's Parliamentary Senior Vice-Minister of Defense Shu Watanabe said.

"There is expansion of the military budget and that is not transparent," he told defence chiefs and senior officials attending an Asia security summit, the Shangri-La Dialogue, in Singapore.

Because of the lack of transparency, Japan is in the dark about the details of China's military spending, he said.

"Chinese military budget growth, what sort of capacities they are trying to expand and what sort of purposes they have are not transparent and in that sense it is a threat," Watanabe added.

He said the unease generated by the issue contrasted with generally positive cultural and economic relations Tokyo has with Beijing.

"On the military front there are some concerns. I think all countries are the same on that front," he said.

China's growing military presence and assertive stance, especially in the South China Sea, where it has overlapping territorial claims with other Asian nations, have rattled nerves in the region as well as in Washington.

US Senator John McCain said in a press conference on the sidelines of the summit that China should be more open about its defence spending.


"What I would like to see is much more transparency on the part of the Chinese government as to how much money is being spent, what it's being spent on and what their overall strategy should be," he said.

"I don't view that China's military buildup is necessarily directed at the United States of America but I do worry when we don't know exactly how much money is spent, what it's on and we would also like to hear what their doctrine will be."

Addressing the conference, Indian Defence Minister A.K. Antony said New Delhi was also concerned about China's military spending.

"Even though we don't believe in an arms race, since China has increased their military capabilities and spending more on defence, in our own way, to protect our national interest, we are also strengthening our capabilities in our borders," he said
.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby S_Prasad » 02 Jun 2012 18:39

US To Redeploy Pacific Fleet

Wish we could do this to our ENC too.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Don » 02 Jun 2012 19:21

What Dhoti shivering ?? :rotfl:

http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/in ... 79324.html

New Delhi: Defence Minister AK Antony on Saturday said that India was concerned about rise in China’s military spending.

China’s military budget jumped 11.2 percent year on year to 106 billion dollars in 2012.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 03 Jun 2012 21:20

Don wrote:What Dhoti shivering ?? :rotfl:

http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/in ... 79324.html

New Delhi: Defence Minister AK Antony on Saturday said that India was concerned about rise in China’s military spending.

China’s military budget jumped 11.2 percent year on year to 106 billion dollars in 2012.


True. But as I have often pointed out the words "concerned" indicating the dhoti shivering are not what Antony has used in his speech, but reflects the fears and anxieties of the news reporter who has, like other Indians, been taught to fear China and to dhoti shiver at any news about China. This is what Mao did to Indians. He sparked off dhoti shivering that has lasted 3 generations. So far. A large number of Indians fear China.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shyam » 05 Jun 2012 09:11

We know about automobile and other branded product copies. How about this?

China's J-20 And The American F-22 Raptor — You Are Not Seeing Double
Image

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Austin » 05 Jun 2012 11:55

Not sure if these are scaled to resolution but J-20 is more flatter and chubbier then F-22 , the cockpit layout when seen from front are identical with single piece glass canopy and identical bubble layout.

It seems making a single piece glass canopy is also an art and chinese are good with their porcelain for centuries

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby negi » 05 Jun 2012 13:25

I say Khan should one of these days roll out a F-22 on tarmac with a propeller on it's nose cone, I bet bandar's musharraf that Cheena will copy it blindly thinking it is some kind of 5th generation syooper tech which they ought to have.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Singha » 05 Jun 2012 13:36

the hull of the raptor is like a speedboat...very diamond shaped x-section from the front.
the hull of the F20 can best be described as a Oscar class. one could almost expect a few VL silos for AAMs there. the nose will definitely take a bars sized radar.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby chiragAS » 05 Jun 2012 15:47

In that Varyag pic. what are those Rope/cable like things hanging out of the ship near the Anchor?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby adityadange » 05 Jun 2012 16:37

chiragAS wrote:In that Varyag pic. what are those Rope/cable like things hanging out of the ship near the Anchor?

looks like mustache of chinese grandpa :rotfl:
or fishing nets maybe :lol:

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Austin » 06 Jun 2012 07:42

Last edited by Austin on 06 Jun 2012 07:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Singha » 06 Jun 2012 07:43

the hanging ropes seem to be the remnants of mooring lines on dock that someone just cut off rather than release from either end and haul in?


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