China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

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merlin
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by merlin »

D Roy wrote:On a different note.

I think we need to start doing Chicom ORBAT assessments for lanzhou and Chengdu MRs and make a sticky out of it.

Plus keep an eye on what the Second Artillery is bringing in.

The DF-16 has apparently been operationalized recently.

Plus need to keep track of their exercises since Stride 2009.

all the developments in armour, artillery and airpower can be collated. What is more difficult to assess is Chicom's EW ORBAT.

From google earth we could probably get some clues of their new MPRs.

BRawman seems quite keen to assess their heliborne capability. Also need to look at An-2 colt style transports which can handle along river and mountain alleys.

The war in Tibet thread has some good brainstorming. Perhaps BR can also do some online table top exercises. Organize some open source contests perhaps?
Great idea. Would be interested in helping out with this if something is started.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by DavidD »

vina wrote:
i would not be surprised if some variants of their stable are not being navalised and will be revealed shortly. it will take them another decade before it is a potent war fighting system - but they are on their way
That "variant" has already been "revealed" . The Chinese got a prototype SU-33 that was lying in a bone yard at Ukraine shipped across and using the "secrets" , got that cloned. So what is going to fly off the Varyag is the same plane that flies off he Kuznetsov, the difference being that the Chinese plane is a cloned Su-33. So, it all comes down to how successful the cloned J-11 fighters are?

Trouble is that the Su-33 is simply too big for that carrier and the Russians too are ditching the SU-33 for the Mig29K (after India paid for development of course, thank you) after the SU-33 reaches end of life on the Kuzentsov.

The SU-33 being the size and weight it is will have very little margins even in the cold northern latitudes for STOBAR, but closer to the the equator and tropical waters with temperatures in the mid 30s , to nearly 40C, that will be severly compromised in terms of fuel and payload.

The Chinese have atleast 15 years to go before they can field a halfway reliable force. Close to 20 years sounds more like it. Right now, that carrier is a sitting duck and is as useful as a fishing boat in a shooting war even with somone like a Vietnam.
That the Indians paid for the development of the Mig29K while nobody paid for upgrades to the vintage Su-33 probably had something to do with Russia's decision as well. Also, while it's true that the Su-33 cannot take off with its absolute maximum load, it really doesn't need to in order to be effective. For example, the Su-33 can take off with ~6.5 tons of ordnance. Two YJ-62 or YJ-12 class ASM's(<1250kg each), 4 BVR PL-12 or PL-21 class AAM's(~200kg each), plus 2 lighter PL-9 or PL-10 class AAM's(~100kg) only make up about 3 tons total, thus allowing the Su-33 to take off with a pretty formidable load while being 3.5 tons below its MTOW. Reduce the fuel load a but a couple of tons and add in the few hundred kg's saved by using more composites ala the J-11B, and it should still be a quite capable platform. Not ideal, but it's not quite sitting duck either.

With that said, its main role will still be for carrier ops training, tactics development, etc.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Singha »

due to the long coastline of China, taking on anyone in the green or brown water belt (all of ASEAN, Soko, US, Japan) is quite feasible and convenient using a chain of land bases on coast and a network of supporting bases in the interior.
there is nothing much to attack further east other than isolated US bases like okinawa, guam etc.

so PLAN carrier strike wing(s) would be mainly to project power long distance like fighting with India near the indonesian island chain/bay of bengal/near singapore or projecting power as a task force in the gulf or red sea region.

in that sense they have time because they can project a SSN threat in all these areas much earlier than carriers.

imo they will skip the unsuccessful varyag design and work with nikolayev and others for a more purpose built 75000t design with a big airwing and no russian fetishes like granit silos. if enough money is thrown at the problem, facilities could be built up to construct 3 carriers in parallel and deliver them within a year of each other. we know Cheen is not afraid of scale and not afraid to throw money at national priorities. finding enough workers is also not an issue because of their big civilian shipyards.

looking at logistical tail of making big carriers we must not assume that moment IAC1 is finished Kochi can magically just flip a button and go full tilt into a 65Kt DCN CVF design....preparation and planning has to start years in advance, including means to construct two carriers in parallel.

else there is no point showing up without the ammo - either go big or go home and focus on SSNs only.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by nakul »

The Varyag was built as a naval defence weapon. A fleet of frigates, destroyers & SSNs can wreak havoc on any target. As long as the carrier borne planes can provide air cover for the other ships, I would consider the carrier to be doing its job. The Soviet strategy was to prevent enemy planes from attacking their naval fleet. The Su 33 / J 15 is good enough to provide resistance to any enemy fighters threatening the surface ships. The range is immaterial for CAP roles as they would not fly far although it might limit their stay on station. This can be easily overcome with frequent launches and lighter payloads.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by TSJones »

It's nice to know that the US department of Homeland Security is on the ball. However, I do not necessarily agree with the conclusion of this article in the last paragraph.

"We want to buy some of your plastic for uh, sporting goods, yeah that's it."

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/09/carbon-fiber/
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by D Roy »

imo they will skip the unsuccessful varyag design and work with nikolayev and others for a more purpose built 75000t design with a big airwing and no russian fetishes like granit silos

I am willing to bet a 100 Yuan that the old Ulyanovsk design will be offered to Chicom by the Roos-Ukraine bhai bhai (once again) combination.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by SaiK »

NPE ji, wouldn't you/D Roy, need to start a new thread then? I am sure it would be very valuable one.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by D Roy »

What is NPE?
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by NRao »

D Roy wrote:
imo they will skip the unsuccessful varyag design and work with nikolayev and others for a more purpose built 75000t design with a big airwing and no russian fetishes like granit silos

I am willing to bet a 100 Yuan that the old Ulyanovsk design will be offered to Chicom by the Roos-Ukraine bhai bhai (once again) combination.
That is a dynamic that India cannot control but has to be prepared for.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by nakul »

There is a greater chance that China would clone the Varyag & gain some expertise before planning on a new dessig. They don't even know what they will need unless they operate one. It will be a much simpler option and the one China is traditionally known to opt for.

The new designs are years away by which time China would have ship borne AEW&C planes as well as 5th gen fighters. They can plan accordingly to suit their new doctine. Lets wait before they are capable of figuring out what they need. In the meanwhile, IAC 2 should continue on time lest we end up with 2 STOBARS without the option to have 2 on station.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Singha »

But the ulyanovsk design was actually done and some construction work actually started i think. So its basically ready and on the shelf with nikolayev. Internal eqpt like power plant will ofcourse change in the 20 yrs that have passed. The basic hull form and internal layout of successful large carriers has not changed since the khan invented the supercarrier concept ... A big airwing, big storage for aviation fuel, accompanying tanker, some for of refueler and awacs onboard and a small fleet of utility helis for csar and plane guard. The cvf pa2 design with twin islands was the first major look change in ages.

Given the time needed for carrier building vs 3 or 4 for ddg, it makes every sense to jump to ulyanovsk and skip varyag for greenfield project.

China may not always have the good stuff, but they cannot be accused of not knowing what they want.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by D Roy »

Ulyanovsk was almost half complete.

And as you suggest, Chicom will stick in new internals and go with this hull.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Singha »

the ulyanovsk hull was sold for metal scrap per this link and also the metal kept for her sister ship
http://general-quarters.blogspot.in/201 ... class.html

a blogger did find a photo of the keel of a varyag clone under construction right next to it. so maybe they will build one of varyag size before producing 2-3 of ulyanovsk-mkk class
http://general-quarters.blogspot.in/201 ... rrier.html

ofcourse the keel could be that of their new LPD ships.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by D Roy »

I meant hull design.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by SaiK »

D Roy wrote:What is NPE?
hint: merlin
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Don »

http://news.yahoo.com/satellite-launch- ... wAcjDQtDMD
Satellite launch stirs passions before Venezuela vote
By Daniel Wallis | Reuters – Sat, Sep 29, 2012

CARACAS (Reuters) - President Hugo Chavez said the launch on Friday of Venezuela's second satellite showed the achievements of his self-styled revolution just days before he seeks re-election, but his rival said it symbolized his neglect of problems closer to home.

"We're seeing history ... . Venezuela has been with China at the forefront of history," Chavez said after standing to applaud during a video link-up between the presidential palace, a launch center in China's Gobi Desert and a Caracas street party.

As campaigning in the close election race approaches its final week in South America's biggest oil exporter, both political camps are planning their last huge rallies while making last-minute efforts to win over undecided voters.

Opposition candidate Henrique Capriles has mocked Chavez, who he says is focused on spreading his socialist project around the world but has done little to address the daily problems of voters such as crime, power cuts and inflation.

A dozen Venezuelan officials were at China's Jiuquan launch center, near the Mongolian border, to watch the rocket carrying the "Miranda" satellite blast off into a clear blue sky.

Venezuelan state TV had broadcast hours of build-up alongside the headline "Space Revolution ... a Sovereign View."

For Capriles, it was a prime example of what he calls grandiose plans that prove Chavez is out of touch with voters.

"How many Venezuelans sleep in a refuge tonight? How many towns without an ambulance? Another satellite for the candidate of continuity. On October 7 this will change," he said on Twitter.

In 2008 China launched Venezuela's first satellite - the Venesat-1, or "Simon Bolivar" - to carry communications gear.

The second spacecraft will take photographs that Chavez's government says will help it protect the environment, improve urban planning and crack down on illegal mining and drug cultivation.

Both satellites were named after 19th-century South American independence heroes.

The launch was beamed to big screens at a street party in Caracas's museum district, where Chavez was mobbed by supporters when he arrived earlier in the evening to make a short speech.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Don »

Spy satellite ?

http://en.ce.cn/National/stech/201209/3 ... 5732.shtml
China delivers remote sensing satellite to Venezuela
Last Updated(Beijing Time):2012-09-29 15:26

China sent into space a remote sensing satellite, the "VRSS-1", for Venezuela from northwestern China's Gobi dessert at noon Saturday, the Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center said in a statement.

The delivery marks China's first in-orbit delivery of a remote sensing satellite to an international customer, it says.

In 2008 China launched Venezuela's first satellite - the Venesat-1, or "Simon Bolivar" - to carry communications facilities.

Venesat-1, which was a jointly built telecommunication satellite, made Venezuela the fourth Latin American country to own a satellite after Mexico, Brazil and Argentina.
Last edited by Don on 30 Sep 2012 19:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Don »

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Nicar ... a_999.html
Nicaragua negotiating satellite purchase with China
by Staff Writers
Managua (AFP) Sept 14, 2012

Nicaragua is in negotiations with China to purchase a $300 million satellite, which the Central American country hopes to launch into orbit by 2016, officials said.

The accord between the Nicaraguan Telecommunications Institute (Telcor) and the Chinese firm Great Wall, which has manufactured satellites for several Latin American, African and Asian countries, could be signed in October.

"In mid-October of this year, the two parties are going to conclude the negotiations on all aspects of this contract," said the Chinese firm's vice president, He Xing, at a press conference in Managua on Thursday.

Xing said the device would be a third-generation satellite capable of providing modern telephone, Internet and digital television services for Nicaragua and some residents in nearby countries.

The project, referred to as Nicasat-1, will cost approximately $300 million. The Nicaraguan government plans to seek financing from Chinese banks, which have offered favorable interest rates, Telcor said.

Nicaraguan officials have said the satellite will promote economic development in the country -- one of Latin America's poorest -- and help to improve communications in the event of a natural disaster.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Austin »

"Saturn" will deliver 184 aircraft engines to China
Scientific and Production Association "Saturn" sells a contract to supply China with 184 aircraft engine type D-30 transmission for military transport aircraft Il-76, said Oct. 1 managing director of the company Ilya Fedorov. The contract was signed in November 2011 and entered into force in February 2012, RIA "Novosti". "At D-30 CP - we make a big order for China is very big. This 184 engine. Order amount more than half a billion dollars," - said Mr. Fedorov.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by abhischekcc »

shiv wrote:
Anand K wrote:I cannot even begin to comprehend the existential questions that plague the mind of the captain of that floating table now.....
:rotfl:
They could at least have put one helicopter on it no? It's a bad omen to show an empty deck like that.
Empty aircraft carriers attracts many aircrafts, like dung attracts many flies. - Ancient Chinese communist sage Mao Tse Dung
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by member_22906 »

^^

:rotfl: :rotfl:
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Singha »

china only had 14 IL76MD per sinodefence prior to the order of 34 which was in process of renegotiation. 184 engine deal signing means that order is finally sealed, 34*4 = 136, and perhaps the rest 184-136 = 48 means some additional orders and rest spares. my guess is more Midas refuelers (5) to add to the 4 that was part of the 34.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Austin »

China Says All Equipment on Aircraft Carrier Liaoning Home Made
All equipment mounted on the first Chinese aircraft carrier Liaoning (modernized Soviet Varyag) is developed and produced in China, says an official from China's Academy of Military Science. As for him, that equipment has reached the level of "reliability and maturity", reports focus.stockstar.com on Sept 28.

According to director of the Institute for Naval Information, all equipment of the carrier, particularly radars, communication systems and navigation aids are designed and made in China. Deck-based fighter J-15 is a modified version of J-11B fighter and imitates design of Russian Su-33. The heavy twin-engined fighter has a frame with large interior volume, improved combat capability, and long flight range. American media reports that those aircraft will be powered by Chinese engines WS-10A Taihang.

In contrast to J-11B, frame of J-15 fighter has improved corrosion resistance, foreplanes, and folded wings for carrier deck landing.

Earlier on, there were suppositions in the Internet that the new stealth fighter J-31 was designed for aircraft carrier Liaoning. However, experts say this airplane has "immature" technology and may be stationed on new-generation aircraft carriers designed on the basis of Liaoning.

New destroyers Type 052D equipped with missile defense system analogous to American Aegis are designed to escort prospective aircraft carriers and protect them from enemy aircraft and missiles.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by member_23370 »

why doi they keep saying AEGIS analogous? Because it looks like a copy externally?
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Don »

Singha wrote:china only had 14 IL76MD per sinodefence prior to the order of 34 which was in process of renegotiation. 184 engine deal signing means that order is finally sealed, 34*4 = 136, and perhaps the rest 184-136 = 48 means some additional orders and rest spares. my guess is more Midas refuelers (5) to add to the 4 that was part of the 34.
Most likely the left overs will be used to power the H-6 K cruise missile carrying bomber

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Austin »

Which engine does H-6 K uses ? Because if its not the PS-90 then changing the existing engine with another one is not a straight forward task , not only does the engine needs to match the dimension but also needs elaborate flight testing and certification with new engine
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Shrinivasan »

Austin wrote:Which engine does H-6 K uses ? Because if its not the PS-90 then changing the existing engine with another one is not a straight forward task , not only does the engine needs to match the dimension but also needs elaborate flight testing and certification with new engine
Austin, PRC seems to be an expert in changing the engine midway for many of its birds... the bear seems too willing to sell better and better engines to them knowing fully well that it would get cloned... it looks like the Bear may offer its engines to the pigs too... Gen Kiya Nahi is making a pillgrimmage to Bear land to beg for some engines...
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Don »

Austin wrote:Which engine does H-6 K uses ? Because if its not the PS-90 then changing the existing engine with another one is not a straight forward task , not only does the engine needs to match the dimension but also needs elaborate flight testing and certification with new engine
Hi Austin, the H-6k uses Saturn D-30KP-2 turbofan engines its range is 3000+ KM which is interchangeable with the PS-90.

It carries CJ-10A cruise missiles with the range of about 2000 KM+ with speed Mach 2.5+. They can launch within China itself and strike strategic target deep inside India.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CJ-10A

I think a single regiment of H6 K can have more striking power then the entire fleet of MKI armed with a single Brahmos.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Austin »

Don wrote:Hi Austin, the H-6k uses Saturn D-30KP-2 turbofan engines its range is 3000+ KM which is interchangeable with the PS-90.
The more modern PS-90 has a larger fan diameter and higher thrust and fitting that into a close confines of airframe of a bomber is not easy task as any slight change in dimension would affect the aerodynamic capability of the bomber , for a transport aircraft thats not a big challenge as the engine is externally mounted on the wings.

You can visibly see the difference in the engine diameter for the IL-476 and the older IL-76.

Instead of taking all the trouble and then flight certifying the bomber with new engine the chinese are better off designing a new bomber around the PS-90A3 which are more powerful then the PS-90A-76 if they wish to use this as an engine which is not bad either.

For any bomber upgrade an electronics and weapons upgrade pays more as far as cost effectiveness goes and engines can be refurbished to zero life .....no bomber upgrade in US or Russia has ever changed their engines
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Singha »

other than the fearsome "Burya" (PBUH) I dont think any CM in the world does 3000km range with mach2.5 speed :rotfl:
just look at the size, no bigger than tomahawk GLCM which did around same range and speed of 800kmph.

you cannot cheat physics. its a subsonic long range CM.

onlee point of debate could be like the Klub does it release a small supersonic warhead section @ mach2.5 in the final 20km?
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by member_23370 »

Lol mach 2.5 for 2500 km. What a load of crock. Its just a mediocre tomahawk rip-off. Most likely copied from ukrainian Kh-55.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Don »

Singha wrote:other than the fearsome "Burya" (PBUH) I dont think any CM in the world does 3000km range with mach2.5 speed :rotfl:
just look at the size, no bigger than tomahawk GLCM which did around same range and speed of 800kmph.

you cannot cheat physics. its a subsonic long range CM.

onlee point of debate could be like the Klub does it release a small supersonic warhead section @ mach2.5 in the final 20km?
Good point Singha, you could be right maybe its 2.5 on the final approach like the the Klub. I am only quoting the article.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Don »

Austin wrote:
Don wrote:Hi Austin, the H-6k uses Saturn D-30KP-2 turbofan engines its range is 3000+ KM which is interchangeable with the PS-90.
The more modern PS-90 has a larger fan diameter and higher thrust and fitting that into a close confines of airframe of a bomber is not easy task as any slight change in dimension would affect the aerodynamic capability of the bomber , for a transport aircraft thats not a big challenge as the engine is externally mounted on the wings.

You can visibly see the difference in the engine diameter for the IL-476 and the older IL-76.

Instead of taking all the trouble and then flight certifying the bomber with new engine the chinese are better off designing a new bomber around the PS-90A3 which are more powerful then the PS-90A-76 if they wish to use this as an engine which is not bad either.

For any bomber upgrade an electronics and weapons upgrade pays more as far as cost effectiveness goes and engines can be refurbished to zero life .....no bomber upgrade in US or Russia has ever changed their engines
You could be right. There have been rumours that Xian which is responsible for H-6 K is designing a new bomber. So who knows ? Or it could be used for a new air transport prototype.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Singha »

at the end of the day, the point remains that China has a fleet of ALCM delivery aircraft and India does not, and has shown no signs of going that route.

all one needs is a fairly modest performance and 6-8 pylons to cart around ALCMs. planes designed in the 1950s are still doing that role for Rus, China, USA.....missiles have continued to advance from the old hound dog/SRAM days to JASSM/KH101/BGM109/CY10 etc.

a small fleet of such planes say 25 based in a couple bases in south india, could deliver a 1000km shower of ALCM by gently flying out 2000km in any direction (more if refueling) and return back to base.

we need our own Engels AFB in saratov oblast.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by hnair »

x-posting
Gilles wrote:The new production IL-76MD-90A or IL-476, built in Russia, made its maiden flight on Sept 22.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ts-377334/
This is the sort of news that is troubling, than that recent craftless wonder or those welcome planes for US Def Secy.
Sources suggest that Russia hopes to receive a large order for an export version of the transport from China, which already operates "classic" Il-76s and had previously sought to buy 60 more. That deal fell through because of the inability of the TAPO plant in Uzbekistan, which built about 1,000 Il-76s, to continue cost-effective series production. This prompted Moscow to establish a second production line in Ulyanovsk for the improved variant, with work having begun in 2005.
Ukraine can be (and might have been) squeezed hard by khan, but it says Ruskies opened up a line to get over that issue.

If they get deliveries going, we are talking of a huge fleet that we need to take into account. China's logistics issues in TIbet might become more manageable and flexible.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by DavidD »

Well, that's one way to put it...after the Russians opened up the second production line, they doubled the prices, and even though China was willing to pay the newly imposed prices they STILL could not deliver them on time (sounds familiar?) The deal is dead now, as China has decided to buy some used Belarussian IL-76's refurbished in Russia as a stop-gap measure, and focus on the domestic development of Y-20 instead.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by SNaik »

Austin wrote:China Says All Equipment on Aircraft Carrier Liaoning Home Made
Home-reproduced will be more appropriate term. Like both Z-8 (Super Frelon) and J-15 (Su-33) here.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by John »

As per latest reports it land based clone of Kh-55 no supersonic secondary stage of any sort (you can tell that from the picture of the missile).
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Don »

SNaik wrote:
Austin wrote:Home-reproduced will be more appropriate term. Like both Z-8 (Super Frelon) and J-15 (Su-33) here.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Will »

Is that even a real pic? :rotfl: It seems to be airbone even before it hits the ski jump :D. Wait a minute that isnt even the ski jump - just the image distorted to make it look like one.
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