China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby kmc_chacko » 06 Nov 2012 07:09

^^ ok it might be equal to our Mig-29's but still they are getting it fast track basis not like ours waiting for last 10-12 years just to procure it from others.

They might be just bluffing but it is our responsibility to get ready to reply even if they are not bluffing.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 06 Nov 2012 07:25

This is a real J-20 (not J-31 as you said) test flight video clip taken with a cell phone camera few days back. It is in Chengdu and the early J-20 test flight captured in camera in the link below also happened in the same place. I think people here will be surprised how agile J-20 is ...

J-20 early low altitude test flight


The beginning of that vid seems very, very familiar. Is it a cut-paste from one of the earlier vid - when the J-20 just came out? Until the J-20 takes of it looks like it is a cut-paste.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 06 Nov 2012 07:36

Both these planes are indications of progress, specially from a Chinese point of view.

But, I doubt if they will translate into a consistent progress. I suspect that they both are a result of stolen technologies, which means there should be no R&D to support the next step.

These planes must have started life - on the drawing board - about 10 years ago (lower end of time needed to get a plane to this stage). If so, then there should have been R&D to support such concepts way prior to 10 years. Just not possible.

Most, like 80%, I bet is stolen ideas and technologies. That by itself should make China lurch in the next decade or so.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Austin » 06 Nov 2012 07:54

The J-21 looks good so far more in Mig-29 weight category but could be lower if they have extensively used carbon composite material on it , the engine would likely be in 90-95 Kn class each not sure if this is some local WS-XX series or RD-33 variant.

I wont be surprised given the right engine the J-20 would turn out to be more agile due to its Canard and all moving VS configuration , J-20 looks more sophisticated design to me aerodynamically compared to its smaller cousin.

Surprising they could fund two programs simultaneously probably by two different design bureau and two different chief designers working on two programs.....sign of things to come

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 06 Nov 2012 08:06

Austin wrote:Surprising they could fund two programs simultaneously probably by two different design bureau and two different chief designers working on two programs.....sign of things to come


They have the funds, but certainly not the industrial base (R&D) to reach this point so quickly. Just no way.

Heck even the F-22 took a cool 10 years to settle on the config, over some 10 designs.

The J-20/31 are not planes to laugh about, but certainly nothing that the US/Russia cannot trump. China cannot have an R&D/industrial base to compete with them.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 06 Nov 2012 08:07

kmc_chacko wrote:^^ ok it might be equal to our Mig-29's but still they are getting it fast track basis not like ours waiting for last 10-12 years just to procure it from others.

They might be just bluffing but it is our responsibility to get ready to reply even if they are not bluffing.


This is exactly what I mean by Indians worrying and criticizing India when discussing Chinese developments. Like I said this is consistent and predictable. Discussing Chinese defence makes Indians worried and anxious that we are going to get our sorry ass kicked again This is an effect that 1962 had on Indians. After 50 years I think we need to get out of it. At least I was a child in 1962. We have youngsters who were not even born then worrying - and that shows how the China anxiety has been passed on from generation to generation. Who says the new generation are going to be bold and different? They are just like the old. Scared because their parents and grandparents generation were scared.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 06 Nov 2012 08:23

kmc_chacko wrote:^^ ok it might be equal to our Mig-29's but still they are getting it fast track basis not like ours waiting for last 10-12 years just to procure it from others.

They might be just bluffing but it is our responsibility to get ready to reply even if they are not bluffing.


I can bet that the FGFA (NOT the PAK-FA) will provide a "fitting" response to both these planes.

And, that is not even to talk of the AMCA or whatever it is called now.

Unless Russia provides a ton of support and they just might, or the French get EU to sell stuff to China, there is no way China can sustain such developments.

To think of it even further, I bet China will not be able to correct any design issues that these planes may have.

Like someone posted they cannot even make a perfect 4th gen plan and they want to talk of a 5th gen one?

BTW, even the Chinese have "procured" their engines.

Actually my point is that they have procured a LOT more - the very design itself, for one, of the "J-31".

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 06 Nov 2012 08:39

I think Indians have a blind spot with regard to India apart from fear that mother India will get ravished by the Chinese.

China produces copies without licence
India produces copies under licence

There are some advantages and disadvantages to both approaches and we invariably compare the advantages of the Chinese approach to the disadvantages of the Indian approach.

India gets better product support over longer periods because we are paying off the OEM and keeping his workers employed
China appears more innovative because they have to clone everything but China is cagey about failures. Materials and manufacture issues, uptime/downtime issues, MTBF times etc are a state secret in China.

It's not as though India is weak and unprepared. But the anxiety and worry Indians (at least on BRF) display indicate to me a deeper psychological issue. It is surprising to see the grandchildren of people who were around in 1962 worrying their heads off expecting to get a kick up one's own ass just like grampa recalled. I mean what's this rubbish about young and vibrant India? At some stage , at least on BRF, we need to grow out of this fear psychosis because it clouds thinking.

You cannot post one critical assessment of China without ten BRFites coming on and crying that we are going to have our asses whupped and end up feeling sore like my grandfather. This friggin thread is full of that. What gives?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_23370 » 06 Nov 2012 10:08

No one is worried about chinese technology. It is crap compared to what India has access to or has developed. The concern is simply that India faces hostile situation on both sides and it is important that govt fund indigenous arms industry and equip the forces well. Increasing defense budget to 3% of GDP will be a very good start.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Austin » 06 Nov 2012 12:20

NRao wrote:They have the funds, but certainly not the industrial base (R&D) to reach this point so quickly. Just no way.

Heck even the F-22 took a cool 10 years to settle on the config, over some 10 designs.

The J-20/31 are not planes to laugh about, but certainly nothing that the US/Russia cannot trump. China cannot have an R&D/industrial base to compete with them.


Chinese have got lot of dual use technology from West via their civilian program like the A320 that they built out there and other program, much like India a lot of technology both in men and material in defence came from Russia.

They were any ways much ahead of india as far as indiginous program goes due to sanction from West over many decades ...... if they could do a J-10 and put into production last decade then coming with the next gen fighter was a matter of time though it came earlier because most in the world did not knew what was going on due to secrecy surrounding it.

Stealing technology wont help them build a J-20 or J-21 it will at best be an aid or at worst will let them know where the other guys stand , you can build an industrial base or known how stealing unless you manage to steal every thing from know how , design , process and manufacturing base and every other small/big things that comes with it

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Singha » 06 Nov 2012 13:01

machine tools & production/QA from the west and japan/soko
"minds" from ukraine, russia and eastern europe
spy and opensrc material from everywhere
domestic experts
good funding
strong political backing
user willing to live with so-so products while incremental improvements made
good domestic civilian industry for support

they have a got a good thing going imo.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby wrdos » 06 Nov 2012 13:03

Sure. Not worry, have curry.

Bheeshma wrote:No one is worried about chinese technology. It is crap compared to what India has access to or has developed. The concern is simply that India faces hostile situation on both sides and it is important that govt fund indigenous arms industry and equip the forces well. Increasing defense budget to 3% of GDP will be a very good start.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Will » 06 Nov 2012 13:03

shiv wrote:I think Indians have a blind spot with regard to India apart from fear that mother India will get ravished by the Chinese.

China produces copies without licence
India produces copies under licence

There are some advantages and disadvantages to both approaches and we invariably compare the advantages of the Chinese approach to the disadvantages of the Indian approach.

India gets better product support over longer periods because we are paying off the OEM and keeping his workers employed
China appears more innovative because they have to clone everything but China is cagey about failures. Materials and manufacture issues, uptime/downtime issues, MTBF times etc are a state secret in China.

It's not as though India is weak and unprepared. But the anxiety and worry Indians (at least on BRF) display indicate to me a deeper psychological issue. It is surprising to see the grandchildren of people who were around in 1962 worrying their heads off expecting to get a kick up one's own ass just like grampa recalled. I mean what's this rubbish about young and vibrant India? At some stage , at least on BRF, we need to grow out of this fear psychosis because it clouds thinking.

You cannot post one critical assessment of China without ten BRFites coming on and crying that we are going to have our asses whupped and end up feeling sore like my grandfather. This friggin thread is full of that. What gives?

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby rkirankr » 06 Nov 2012 13:19

From a person who is not an expert:

The answer to their stealth plane (stolen design) is not to build a stealthier plane.Find a technology to detect those planes , then all their R&D (copy and Paste) will be waste and they will wait till US-Russia build another plane and copy that. I think that would be cheaper for us.

I agree with Shiv, we should not be wetting our pant for every photoshop shown on chinese. If we were so weak , they should have attacked us and finished of the AP question in early 1990s, 1970s or even after 1965 when probably confidence levels in the country was not that great.
We should be on guard and learn from mistakes of the past. No need to fear, especially now.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_23370 » 06 Nov 2012 14:03

wrdos wrote:Sure. Not worry, have curry.



No Fear I am enjoying it. Hope the kung pow didn't turn sour. OR are the Photoshop low grade J-XX meant to scare the americans who have turned their attention to Pacific. :rotfl:

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 06 Nov 2012 17:55

Austin wrote:
NRao wrote:They have the funds, but certainly not the industrial base (R&D) to reach this point so quickly. Just no way.

Heck even the F-22 took a cool 10 years to settle on the config, over some 10 designs.

The J-20/31 are not planes to laugh about, but certainly nothing that the US/Russia cannot trump. China cannot have an R&D/industrial base to compete with them.


Chinese have got lot of dual use technology from West via their civilian program like the A320 that they built out there and other program, much like India a lot of technology both in men and material in defence came from Russia.

They were any ways much ahead of india as far as indiginous program goes due to sanction from West over many decades ...... if they could do a J-10 and put into production last decade then coming with the next gen fighter was a matter of time though it came earlier because most in the world did not knew what was going on due to secrecy surrounding it.

Stealing technology wont help them build a J-20 or J-21 it will at best be an aid or at worst will let them know where the other guys stand , you can build an industrial base or known how stealing unless you manage to steal every thing from

know how , design , process and manufacturing base and every other small/big things that comes with it


Do not have time to respond in greater depth.

Yes, China was and is ahead of India in many areas and I have not chased the dual use tech s they have been given.

But, where do they stand in R&D? Metals, etc? Do they have the depth needed? Like Russia and the US has.

They cannot even get an engine put together - not because they are idiots, they certainly have brain power. You say they have the needed industrial tools. So what gives? What is lacking for them (or for that matter even Pakistan is looking west to equip the Thunder with proper sensors, etc) to build a COMPLETE 4th gen plane?

I am not trying to knock the Chinese - they have made great strides. Just that from what I know I feel they will get stuck at some point in time because they have no consistent R&D. Engines!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Chinmayanand » 06 Nov 2012 18:04

Mystery Sighting Spooks Soldiers

Units of the Indian Army and the Indo-Tibetan Border Police Force (ITBP) have reported Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs) in the Ladakh region of Jammu and Kashmir.

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An ITBP unit based in Thakung, close to the Pangong Tso Lake, reported over 100 sightings of luminous objects between August 1 and October 15 this year. In reports sent to their Delhi headquarters in September, and to the Prime Minister's Office (PMO), they described sighting "Unidentified Luminous Objects" at day and by night. The yellowish spheres appear to lift off from the horizon on the Chinese side and slowly traverse the sky for three to five hours before disappearing.

These were not unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), drones or even low-earth orbiting satellites, say Army officials who have studied the hazy photographs taken by ITBP. Drone sightings are verified and logged separately. The Army has reported 99 sightings of Chinese drones between January and August this year: 62 sightings were reported in the western sector, the Ladakh region, and 37 in the eastern sector in Arunachal Pradesh. Three of these drones intruded into territory claimed by India along the 365-km-long border with China in Ladakh, manned by ITBP.

Such mysterious lights have been sighted before in Ladakh, a barren, 86,000 sq km heavily militarised zone wedged between Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir and Chinese-occupied Aksai Chin. The persistent sightings by the ITBP this year, however, worried the Army's Leh-based 14 Corps. The ITBP, did not respond to a detailed India Today questionnaire.

In September, the Army moved a mobile ground-based radar unit and a spectrum analyser-that picks up frequencies emitted from any object-to a mountaintop near the 160-km-long, ribbon-shaped Pangong Lake that lies between India and China.

The radar could not detect the object that was being tracked visually, indicating it was non-metallic. The spectrum analyser could not detect any signals being emitted from them. The Army also flew a reconnaissance drone in the direction of the floating object, but it proved a futile exercise. The drone reached its maximum altitude but lost sight of the floating object.

In late September this year, a team of astronomers from the Indian Astronomical Observatory at Hanle, 150 km south of the lake, studied the airborne phenomena for three days. The team spotted the flying objects, Army officials say, but could not conclusively establish what they were. They did, however, say that the objects were "non celestial" and ruled out meteors and planets.

Scientists however say, the harsh geography and sparse demography of the great Himalayan range that separates Kashmir Valley from Ladakh, lends itself to unusual sightings. "The region is snowbound in winter, has few roads and is one of the most isolated places in India," says Sunil Dhar, a geologist at the government Post Graduate College in Dharamshala, who has studied glaciers in the region for 15 years.

Yet, none of the experts from the National Technical Research Organisation (NTRO)-in charge of technical intelligence-and Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO), has been able to identify the objects. This has caused embarrassment rather than fear in the establishment. "Something is clearly wrong, if our combined scientific resources can't explain the phenomena," says a senior Army official in Delhi. Intelligence officials say these objects could be a crude psychological operation by China, or sophisticated probes attempting to ascertain India's defences in Ladakh.

"We can't ignore these sightings. We need to probe what new technology might have been deployed there," says former Indian Air Force (IAF) chief Air Chief Marshal (retired) P.V. Naik.

In 2010, the IAF probed and dismissed Army sightings of such luminous objects as "Chinese lanterns". 'UFO' sightings have been endemic to Ladakh over the past decade. In late 2003, 14 Corps sent a detailed report on sightings of luminous objects to Army headquarters. Army troops on posts along Siachen had seen floating lights on the Chinese side. But reporting such phenomena risks inviting ridicule. When told about them at a northern command presentation in Leh, the then army chief, General N.C. Vij, had angrily dismissed the reports as hallucinations.

Scientists say the mysterious objects are not necessarily from outer space. "There is no evidence of 'ufos' being of extra-terrestrial origin," says reputed Pune-based astrophysicist Jayant Narlikar. "The implication of them being alien objects is fancy, not fact," he says.

There is still no explanation, however, for what is believed to be the clearest 'UFO' sighting yet, in the Lahaul-Spiti region of Himachal Pradesh less than 100 km south of Ladakh in 2004. A five-member group of geologists and glaciologists led by Dr Anil Kulkarni of the isro's Space Applications Centre in Ahmedabad were on a research trip through the barren Samudra Tapu Valley. They filmed a four-foot tall 'robot-like' figure, that 'walked' along the valley, 50 m away from them. The humanoid object then rapidly became airborne and disappeared. The encounter lasted 40 minutes. It was seen by 14 persons including the six scientists. Kulkarni then interviewed each expedition member separately to verify what the team had seen. Copies of his detailed report were circulated to the PMO, ISRO, the Army and several intelligence agencies. Kulkarni established his team hadn't seen natural phenomenon. The matter, however, was buried soon after.

Sunil Dhar, who was part of the 2004 expedition, terms the sighting of the unidentified object an unforgettable experience. Locals, he says, have reported sighting mysterious objects for many years. "These are unsolved mysteries that need more intensive study," he says. Left unexplained, the Ladakh sightings risk slipping into the crack between fact and science fiction.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby JE Menon » 06 Nov 2012 19:50

>>They filmed a four-foot tall 'robot-like' figure, that 'walked' along the valley, 50 m away from them. The humanoid object then rapidly became airborne and disappeared.

Where's the film then?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby pentaiah » 06 Nov 2012 20:04

Singha wrote:machine tools & production/QA from the west and japan/soko
"minds" from ukraine, russia and eastern material science, mettalurgy


A han

there was at a time when some smart Alec said CNC in nuke thread for FBR
There was commotion

But when you touch me like this
And you tell me like that
I just have to admit
That it's all coming back to me
When I read you like this
And I feel you like that
It's so hard to believe but
It's all coming back to me


With apologies to Celine Dionne

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Singha » 06 Nov 2012 20:13

imho the backfire seems to be sub-optimal design because the engines and inlets occupy a considerable part of the main fuselage best used for payload, EW kit and fuel.
the Tu160/B1 gets it right by hanging the engines in external pods and having huge blended wings for fuel. the engine length of the fuselage can be dedicated to packing in more payload and EW gear in the tail.

the PAKDA will likely have two stealthily housed engines and room for atleast 6-12 KH101 sized missiles internally with perhaps few more slung externally for low threat launches. we should get onboard its funding bandwagon with an eye to the future.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Will » 06 Nov 2012 20:24

Singha wrote:imho the backfire seems to be sub-optimal design because the engines and inlets occupy a considerable part of the main fuselage best used for payload, EW kit and fuel.
the Tu160/B1 gets it right by hanging the engines in external pods and having huge blended wings for fuel. the engine length of the fuselage can be dedicated to packing in more payload and EW gear in the tail.

the PAKDA will likely have two stealthily housed engines and room for atleast 6-12 KH101 sized missiles internally with perhaps few more slung externally for low threat launches. we should get onboard its funding bandwagon with an eye to the future.


Well have any of our govts ever been visionary? We always play catchup!. A day will come when we may have to buy a dozen PAKDA's if the Russians are willing to sell them to us. :twisted:

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby chaanakya » 06 Nov 2012 20:38

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:

tibet airfields are being built with very long runways to solve this problem.


AFAICT take off is less of a problem than landing. Loads can be reduced for takeoff. For landing apart from fuel dumping, loads cannot be reduced. The approach speed is higher and there is no guarantee that the plane is going to touch its wheel down exactly at the beginning of the runway. Even with a 3000 meter runway a plane approaching landing at 200 kmph on a high altitude runway is eating up runway at over 50 meters per second.

The exact point at which the aircraft touches down becomes even more critical if the approach to the runway is from around mountains and the plane has to descend steeply to touch down at exactly the beginning of the runway to have the benefit of all 2000 or 3000 meters of runway. Approach speeds are higher in any case at altitude. In the mountains, runways simply cannot be lengthened indefinitely even if real estate is available because a plane taking off or one that has an aborted landing has to gain height to avoid mountains beyond the runway. Add to that rainy weather or freezing conditions and the plane can't brake and will need to roll all the way

So the scope for building extra long runways is necessarily limited

All the three main runways in Tibet are about 4.7 Kms and above.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 06 Nov 2012 20:50

chaanakya wrote:All the three main runways in Tibet are about 4.7 Kms and above.


Only 3 runways? A crater right in the middle would give 2 runways of 2.5 km. They can have 6 x 2.5 km runways. Only the huge transport ain't gonna be landing there.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Kanson » 06 Nov 2012 21:39

shiv wrote:
Kanson wrote:During loops/turns, frames are cut and altered to give the impression that it is highly maneuverable.


Kanson there is another factor that I noticed while filming and editing airshow videos. When you pan an aircraft that is flying from one side to the other very fast almost above your head and turning at the same time, your handheld camera angle changes and the resulting video looks more spectacular than it actually was. I will try and post examples from my videos.


Yes, there are techniques which can be used to make the show-off as stellar. Here is one such J-10 video where, what may be called as 'zoom and pan' technique, is used to show the turn much more quicker and sharper.
At mark 2:00,

We unsuspecting enthusiasts might not be aware of such Information warfare waged non stop by China. Even while discussing F-22, we relied on information tidbits to form an opinion. But here China is forcing viewers to play by their rules. Even mainstream magazines tend to comment in such fashion. If China can go the extreme of faking a child voice in Beijing Olympic opening ceremony, will it leave the much powerful propaganda tool (J-20/J-31) to chances? Once we understood these information warfare, I think, we will be much more careful in giving credit to such doctored show-offs by their so called 5th gen stealth planes.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby kmc_chacko » 06 Nov 2012 21:54

shiv wrote:
kmc_chacko wrote:^^ ok it might be equal to our Mig-29's but still they are getting it fast track basis not like ours waiting for last 10-12 years just to procure it from others.

They might be just bluffing but it is our responsibility to get ready to reply even if they are not bluffing.


This is exactly what I mean by Indians worrying and criticizing India when discussing Chinese developments. Like I said this is consistent and predictable. Discussing Chinese defence makes Indians worried and anxious that we are going to get our sorry ass kicked again This is an effect that 1962 had on Indians. After 50 years I think we need to get out of it. At least I was a child in 1962. We have youngsters who were not even born then worrying - and that shows how the China anxiety has been passed on from generation to generation. Who says the new generation are going to be bold and different? They are just like the old. Scared because their parents and grandparents generation were scared.


I am criticizing the decision making way and I am not worried about China, we are fully capable to hold China at a bay. But if Pakistan & China combined its forces then it will be difficult as our force level is shrinking by every day.

Even after so many years of licensed production we are unable to produce weapons/equipments locally, which forces us to depend on Western or Russians during war.

We should keep force to that extent that, both should never think even to fire a shot at the border.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2012 06:03

kmc_chacko wrote:
I am criticizing the decision making way and I am not worried about China, we are fully capable to hold China at a bay. But if Pakistan & China combined its forces then it will be difficult as our force level is shrinking by every day.

Even after so many years of licensed production we are unable to produce weapons/equipments locally, which forces us to depend on Western or Russians during war.

We should keep force to that extent that, both should never think even to fire a shot at the border.

Chackoji by doing that you have made yourself a troll who is preventing any critical discussion of Chinese arms by changing the topic to India's weaknesses which we all know about and understand. Why did you do that? Why did you help derail the discussion as if others don't know about what you have said? It is your mistake and you deserve to be called out for doing that.

And this "without a shot" being fired blabla sounds like Nehru to me. Please stop. Or take your lamentation somewhere else and let us talk about Chinese military hardware. Too many Indians get their chaddis all twisted up the minute he sees someone being critical of China and you have joined those ranks.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2012 06:13

Cros post from burqa forum
brihaspati wrote:The panic and lament tone is set up by the host of brilliantly titled, hagipgraphed, fawned over - administrators, civil-servants, military experts, foreign affairs super doopers, and sets the tone for the rest of the discussion. But why the extremes - the extremes are there to constantly keep the the general public mood on the edge.

Well put.

The political leadership of India, having failed miserably in 1962 had every reason to portray India as a weak petite lady and China as a strong brute. That was the only way they could all get away when it is now becoming clear that the 1962 events could have had a different turn.

I suspect 3 generations of Indians have been brought up to see China as an invincible brute simply because the trend was set to portray China that way to cover the mistakes of 1962. Its not that China is not powerful, but discussing China's power should not be confused with discussing India's weaknesses which are a separate subject deserving a separate discussion. But I bet it suited the political leadership after 1962 to cover up and assessment of Chinese weaknesses and play the weak and wronged guy for whom we need to shed tears. That is what I seem to be seeing after 50 years.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2012 06:23

Kanson wrote:We unsuspecting enthusiasts might not be aware of such Information warfare waged non stop by China. Even while discussing F-22, we relied on information tidbits to form an opinion. But here China is forcing viewers to play by their rules. Even mainstream magazines tend to comment in such fashion. If China can go the extreme of faking a child voice in Beijing Olympic opening ceremony, will it leave the much powerful propaganda tool (J-20/J-31) to chances? Once we understood these information warfare, I think, we will be much more careful in giving credit to such doctored show-offs by their so called 5th gen stealth planes.


Absolutely. The development of stealth by Amrika has a long history that has its origins in the black painted SR-71 and the totally under-wraps F-117 - so it was a long process. Suddenly in 18 months China unveils the J 20 and J 31 with no information other than photos and everyone is going about claiming that these are 5th generation. Even a plastic sex doll looks like woman but is not actually a woman. Are Chinese Wiki warriors are going about filling specs and saying "This will be better than everything else and equal to F 22". And we have people swallowing that. I mean - no wonder sex dolls sell.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Nikhil T » 07 Nov 2012 06:38

shiv wrote:
Absolutely. The development of stealth by Amrika has a long history that has its origins in the black painted SR-71 and the totally under-wraps F-117 - so it was a long process. Suddenly in 18 months China unveils the J 20 and J 31 with no information other than photos and everyone is going about claiming that these are 5th generation. Even a plastic sex doll looks like woman but is not actually a woman. Are Chinese Wiki warriors are going about filling specs and saying "This will be better than everything else and equal to F 22". And we have people swallowing that. I mean - no wonder sex dolls sell.


There's a problem with your logic. When the SR-71 was first publicly unveiled, there were no prior recorded sightings since it was a black project. Today the same is holding true for the Chinese black projects. No one knew that the J-20/31 were in development (there were only faint rumors), but one day you see both of them flying - just like the Soviets saw the Americans do decades back. We have to accept that the Chinese are much closer to the leading edge of military technology than we'd like to believe. Are the J-20/31 'better and equal to F22' ? Unlikely, but they're much ahead in development that we are in our 5th Gen AMCA and that's the metric that matters for India.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2012 07:03

Nikhil T wrote:
There's a problem with your logic. When the SR-71 was first publicly unveiled, there were no prior recorded sightings since it was a black project. Today the same is holding true for the Chinese black projects. No one knew that the J-20/31 were in development (there were only faint rumors), but one day you see both of them flying - just like the Soviets saw the Americans do decades back. We have to accept that the Chinese are much closer to the leading edge of military technology than we'd like to believe. Are the J-20/31 'better and equal to F22' ? Unlikely, but they're much ahead in development that we are in our 5th Gen AMCA and that's the metric that matters for India.

Let me return the compliment to you. There is a problem with your logic too. There are two of us here. You and me. But you said:
We have to accept that the Chinese are much closer to the leading edge of military technology than we'd like to believe

We?? Please do not include me in what YOU want to believe. I am not saying that you are wrong or right. But there is no need to dismiss my view as wrong just because YOU don't want to believe it. If you think the Chinese are close to cutting edge it is your prerogative to feel that way. But why are you attempting to force that view as consensus?

I have my reasons for not agreeing with your viewpoint. We can discuss this rationally and politely while holding our viewpoints and not forcing our views on the other party and not reaching hasty rhetorical conclusions about faulty logic when you have not even had the courtesy to ask why I have said what I did.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_22539 » 07 Nov 2012 07:13

^^The SR-71 is just the first visible/public step into the direction of stealth taken by USA. We have not seen and we will not know of all the prototypes and black projects that came before and after that, which led up to the evolved 5th gen products we see today (both of which are still having problems). USA, which has decades (50 years) of experience in stealth research, still has trouble with their designs and we are to believe that china pulled out a couple of models from its a$$ just like that? Are people just so naive as to believe whatever Chinese propaganda throws at them? Or is this all about India's purported weakness rather than China's strength. Just like there are defenders of American power and actions on this forum, it seems we now have resident China defenders. You guys are putting the 50-centers out of their jobs, doing their work for free. All we know is that they have a couple of designs that "look" like low-observable designs and that they are flying. If DRDO/HAL had made a prop like that, would these people be satisfied? Of course not, they would have put every wart and every hair out of place under the microscope and criticized the hell out of it. But, when it comes to China, not only must the swallow the propaganda they vomit, we must also self-flagellate like masochistic slave boys who relish in such self-derision. Mr. Shiv is right, every time someone brings some new info to this thread, it is instantly hijacked by such slave boys and turned into an orgy of self-hate. I hope we can male a self-hate thread on this forum just for these people, so that they do not take a dump on every thread they can, as frequently as they can.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2012 09:38

In 1962 China had not yet tested an atomic bomb, so there was no specific need for fearing the thought that Chinese armed forces would be backed by nuclear bombs. I recall reading laments (newspaper editorial) in the 70s or 80s about how Indian armed forces faced an adversary in China without the comfort that a nuke could be used on them if they used one on our forces.

Clearly 1962 was a bad botch up. Nehru had a "forward policy" with nothing to show what was forward. IIRC China had already gone ahead and built a road via Aksai Chin - (someone correct me if I am wrong). The air force was not used where it could have been used. Mao had rightly estimated that the Indian army would be a tough opponent and had factored in a Chinese five to one superiority in numbers.

The political and administrative faults of 1962, like Pakistani errors committed in 1971 were covered up since the same administration continued after the war under a "respected" PM "chacha" Nehru who like supreme eladers anywhere else had been PM since 1947. It now occurs to me that Nehru's tearful act was on par with Yediyurappa's repeated melt-downs into tears as he made billions in mining kickbacks. The fault was not Nehru's or of the administration, or of the armed forces. It was China's fault. Chinese perfidy, Chinese strength, Chinese brutality. Poor poor India.

This myth of Orc like Chinese ruthlessness was potentiated after 1964 when they tested a nuke and Nehru conveniently died. So we felt more sorry for ourselves and more worried about China. So now, even after 50 years when India's administrative and leadership errors are publicly discussed, we still have a mental undercurrent of anxiety and fear of ruthless China. We still seem to mix up the two issues and we seem unable to discuss Chinese strength or weakness separate from Indian errors. I put it to you that the stories of Chinese superiority and ruthless efficiency were fluffed up by an Indian administration bent on avoiding taking the responsibility for India's pathetic defeat and China's kick ass victory. Even today, on BRF we are unable to discuss China as a separate subject without worrying that they are too strong and that our own weaknesses will lead to our defeat.

We simply must separate an analysis of our mistakes and errors from the separate subject of objectively assessing China minus the fake emotional connection created in 1962.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Nikhil T » 07 Nov 2012 10:25

shiv wrote:We?? Please do not include me in what YOU want to believe. I am not saying that you are wrong or right. But there is no need to dismiss my view as wrong just because YOU don't want to believe it. If you think the Chinese are close to cutting edge it is your prerogative to feel that way. But why are you attempting to force that view as consensus?

I have my reasons for not agreeing with your viewpoint. We can discuss this rationally and politely while holding our viewpoints and not forcing our views on the other party and not reaching hasty rhetorical conclusions about faulty logic when you have not even had the courtesy to ask why I have said what I did.


Shiv,

Saying that "There's a problem with your logic" is polite! You can discuss on the merits of my argument rather than by . Unfortunately, the 'rationality', 'politeness' can't be used to describe your arguments just above where you brought up plastic sex dolls and how they aren't the same as a woman in a discussion on J-31 :roll: :

Even a plastic sex doll looks like woman but is not actually a woman. Are Chinese Wiki warriors are going about filling specs and saying "This will be better than everything else and equal to F 22". And we have people swallowing that. I mean - no wonder sex dolls sell.


In any case, lets get back on topic.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Nikhil T » 07 Nov 2012 10:38

Arun Menon wrote:^^The SR-71 is just the first visible/public step into the direction of stealth taken by USA. We have not seen and we will not know of all the prototypes and black projects that came before and after that, which led up to the evolved 5th gen products we see today (both of which are still having problems). USA, which has decades (50 years) of experience in stealth research, still has trouble with their designs and we are to believe that china pulled out a couple of models from its a$$ just like that? Are people just so naive as to believe whatever Chinese propaganda throws at them? Or is this all about India's purported weakness rather than China's strength. Just like there are defenders of American power and actions on this forum, it seems we now have resident China defenders. You guys are putting the 50-centers out of their jobs, doing their work for free. All we know is that they have a couple of designs that "look" like low-observable designs and that they are flying. If DRDO/HAL had made a prop like that, would these people be satisfied? Of course not, they would have put every wart and every hair out of place under the microscope and criticized the hell out of it. But, when it comes to China, not only must the swallow the propaganda they vomit, we must also self-flagellate like masochistic slave boys who relish in such self-derision. Mr. Shiv is right, every time someone brings some new info to this thread, it is instantly hijacked by such slave boys and turned into an orgy of self-hate. I hope we can male a self-hate thread on this forum just for these people, so that they do not take a dump on every thread they can, as frequently as they can.


Whats with you ? How does the below == China-defender?

We have to accept that the Chinese are much closer to the leading edge of military technology than we'd like to believe. Are the J-20/31 'better and equal to F22' ? Unlikely, but they're much ahead in development that we are in our 5th Gen AMCA and that's the metric that matters for India.


FYI, a professor at the U.S. Naval War College blogged (rightly or wrongly not important) herethe same point that I was making about maturing Chinese MIC. That makes him a 'China-defender' as well?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2012 14:28

Nikhil T wrote:
Saying that "There's a problem with your logic" is polite! You can discuss on the merits of my argument rather than by . Unfortunately, the 'rationality', 'politeness' can't be used to describe your arguments just above where you brought up plastic sex dolls and how they aren't the same as a woman in a discussion on J-31 :roll: :

Even a plastic sex doll looks like woman but is not actually a woman. Are Chinese Wiki warriors are going about filling specs and saying "This will be better than everything else and equal to F 22". And we have people swallowing that. I mean - no wonder sex dolls sell.


In any case, lets get back on topic.


It is both rational and polite to point out that a sex doll is not a woman. It is both rational and polite to say that a J-31 is not an F-35. If you choose to argue with analogies it's your problem, not mine.

Once again you say "Lets get back on Topic" . Speak for yourself sir. I never went off topic any time and will continue to stay on topic

Here is my view on what I think of Chinese attempts at 5th generation aircraft

5th generation is
1. Stealth (Shape, material, paint. AESA, IR signature)
2. Multirole capability (AESA again)
3. Seamless networking with peers
4. Advanced aerodynamics allowing supercruise capability
5. Engines capable of supercruise - meaning supersonic minus after burning

Apart from shape which is clearly copied, the Chinese have shown none of this capability. The same gas guzzling, hot afterburning engines are seen on both the J-20 and J031. The J-20 is a ginormous truck with canards the size of a small aircraft that should show up well on radars. The J-31 intakes and exhausts are in s straight line. AESA was first developed and used in the US. Europe is close behind. Russia behind them. The Chinese are not there yet. Secrecy is another name for incapability.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_20292 » 07 Nov 2012 14:30

^^^ well put, succinct and on the money

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2012 14:37

Nikhil T wrote:FYI, a professor at the U.S. Naval War College blogged (rightly or wrongly not important) herethe same point that I was making about maturing Chinese MIC. That makes him a 'China-defender' as well?


You omitted the bit that tells us that both people are in business with China and it is likely that their interests lie in not saying too many things that might embarrass the Chinese.
Andrew Erickson is a professor at the U.S. Naval War College and a research associate at Harvard’s Fairbank Center. Co-founder of China SignPost (洞察中国), he blogs at http://www.andrewerickson.com.

Gabe Collins is co-founder of China SignPost, founder of ChinaOilTrader.com and is a J.D. candidate at the University of Michigan Law School.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby yantra » 07 Nov 2012 18:50

Shiv

While I agree there should be no dhoti-shivering, there has to be a pragmatic debate about India's short-comings based on 'perceived' MIC capability. And in the case of war, we should err on the side of caution. Chinese may be producing junk - but unless there is a war there is no way of knowing. And we better not know that it is not junk - in a war!

I was not around in 1962, I have only read about it. I am confident of the Indian defense capabilities - but certainly there are short-comings and a few gaping holes. Pointing out these short-comings and accepting them is the first step to building a robust defense force. Accepting the short-falls are not dhoti-shivering. Why this insecurity in jumping at every short-comings pointed out and painting it as dhoti-shivering? All of us know that neither India is a push-over nor is China. The very fact that India has not been attacked is a testimony. But, raise the bar of defense capabilities so high that China will not even be able to wage a photo-shop psywar - that is where we should get to. Every short-coming and lacunae has to be identified, accepted and corrected to make that happen.

If someone has pointed out a non-existing short-comings - it is better to point that out politely and correct the person. I hope this stays a democratic forum with views from everyone than one where one's views are imposed on others. None of us come here to win debate brownie points. JMT.

## I was not allowed to us one word in place of 'short-coming' - had to edit ch*nk/s

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Sagar G » 07 Nov 2012 19:51

yantra wrote:Pointing out these short-comings and accepting them is the first step to building a robust defense force. Accepting the short-falls are not dhoti-shivering. Why this insecurity in jumping at every short-comings pointed out and painting it as dhoti-shivering?


Why these "shortcoming" have to be highlighted in a thread about "Chinese Military" ?? Aren't their enough threads to discuss Indian military shortcomings ??

Why always shortcomings are discussed, does discussing Indian military strengths causes epileptic fits to the "shortcoming highlighting group" ???

If India military is so short of strength why hasn't China attacked us and taken the land that they claim is theirs ???

yantra wrote:All of us know that neither India is a push-over nor is China.


If "all of us know that India is not a pushover", then why it is said that Indian defence is weak against chinese ??

yantra wrote:But, raise the bar of defense capabilities so high that China will not even be able to wage a photo-shop psywar - that is where we should get to.


Who has been affected by this photo-shop psywar ?? The "shortcoming highlighting group" or general Indians ??

yantra wrote:Every short-coming and lacunae has to be identified, accepted and corrected to make that happen.


Is "Chinese Military Watch" thread the official "Indian Military Shortcomings Highlighting" Thread ??

Please care to answer the above questions cause this SDRE is shivering out of fear that Chinese would come and take my home :(( :((

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby yantra » 07 Nov 2012 20:59

Sagar

Would you kindly care to read my post completely and understand the content before you comment? Thanks.

Why these "shortcoming" have to be highlighted in a thread about "Chinese Military" ?? Aren't their enough threads to discuss Indian military shortcomings ??


Remember - we are discussing this vis-a-vis Chinese strengths - hence an appropriate forum?

Why always shortcomings are discussed, does discussing Indian military strengths causes epileptic fits to the "shortcoming highlighting group" ???


Again, please read my comment fully. " I am confident of the Indian defense capabilities - but certainly there are short-comings and a few gaping holes." If you think all is well with Indian defense versus Chinese, we might as well go home and sleep.

Remember, it is never so and these are not highlighted/discussed versus defense capabilities of Bhutan, SriLanka, Nepal or Bangladesh. Care to think why we bring up Chinese and compare India?

If India military is so short of strength why hasn't China attacked us and taken the land that they claim is theirs ???


Again, would you care to read my post? "The very fact that India has not been attacked is a testimony." before you did. Are you criticizing me or repeating me? I am confused.

I believe it is an appropriate thread to discuss Indian capabilities versus Chinese - when a Chinese capability is identified/recognized. If you think all is well and that there is lasting peace because India has the greatest military in the world, we might just pack up this thread and go to sleep.

I believe there is always room for improvements, bettering defenses (and developing offences) - knowing your threats. Knowing threats and preparing for them is not dhoti-shivering - it is a reflection of the confidence and furthering preparedness to face any eventuality.

Even Unkil and Russkies know China is a threat (varied assessments). Is it dhoti-shivering? They recognize it to take appropriate counter-measures/posture change.

It is an ostrich mentality to hide heads under ground and think that all is well in the world. Again, I am not here to win brownie points in a debate (lot of others are good at that) - it is just that India needs to recognize threats, identify gaps and close them. I hope you do not tell me that India has a perfect defense organization against any threat, for now and future - no gaps at all!


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