China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby manjgu » 09 May 2013 19:05

@sanku.... it may be a days drive but as the 'crow flies' its not too far. In the event of hostilties, Awantipur will be active in providing support.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Sanku » 09 May 2013 21:51

manjgu wrote:@sanku.... it may be a days drive but as the 'crow flies' its not too far. In the event of hostilties, Awantipur will be active in providing support.


I meant as a transport hub, for far flung units in that sector. They have to be served in emergency through ALGs and heli's. At least I thought the question was in that respect.

In case of Air cover, yes, Avantipur is close enough to provide support, and I am sure it will.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby manum » 09 May 2013 22:29

Why chinese did that, what they did?

Noone has the answer.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Philip » 09 May 2013 22:40

PLs. read the China thread in the Strat page.Revelations as to how the China Study Group (CSG) chickened out, vetoed the IA's infrastructure build-up strategy leading to the debacle.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Katare » 09 May 2013 23:12

Philip,
Unfortunately you will accept nothing but a defeat, humiliation, treachery and a slap on face of India. What's the point?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby RamaY » 09 May 2013 23:46

manum wrote:Why chinese did that, what they did?

Noone has the answer.


I have a theory. Please bear with me as this is more to do with a nation's territorial integrity and national interests than pure military gadgets or Orbat. More over military being just an arm of a nation's power projection there is extremely limited military aspect to this recent maneuver.

This whole area is a disputed territory between China and India. Being a disputed territory both nations have a claim on it. While there is a LAC (Line of Actual Control) the nations need not honor it for it would make the LAC as de-facto border. It is a must for an assertive nation to claim the disputed territory on periodic basis.

I think China is doing this on a periodic basis. I also think when GoI sources say this happens all the time on both sides, I guess this posturing is what they meant.

Given this scenario, perhaps India and China should negotiate a set of locations to setup their permanent military bases in all the disputed areas.

It is a different matter if India want to call whole of Tibet a disputed matter and China whole of NE.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby srin » 09 May 2013 23:51

Philip wrote:X-posted earlier elsewhere.

"
All this is another example of the old saying that amateurs (and politicians) talk tactics, while professionals talk logistics. China realized this first and has built 58,000 kilometers of roads to the Indian border, along with five airbases and several rail lines. Thus, China can move thirty divisions to the border, which is three times more than India can get to its side of the frontier."

How best do we prepare for this eventuality?

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htmurp ... 30507.aspx

India Prepares For Another Chinese Victory

All the roads won't change the fact that most of the border is mountains, the highest mountains (the Himalayas) in the world. So no matter how much you prepare for war, no one is going very far, very fast, when you have to deal with these mountains. As the Indians discovered, the Chinese persevered anyway and built roads and railroads anyway and now India has to quickly respond in kind or face a repeat of their 1962 defeat.

Despite the lack of roads, India has moved several infantry divisions, several squadrons of Su-30 fighters, and six of the first eight squadrons of its new Akash air defense missile systems as close to the Chinese border as their existing road network will allow. Most of these initially went into Assam, just south of Arunachal Pradesh, until the road network is built up sufficiently to allow bases to be maintained closer to the border. It may be a decade or more before those roads are built, meaning China can seize Arunachal Pradesh anytime it wants and there’s not much India can do to stop it.


What a sad analysis ! All such analysts should be made to use Google Terrain and Google Earth before they write any article.

Developing roads on a plateau (which is what Tibet is) is a different ball game from developing roads from sea-level going upto a few thousand metres in height over a distance of a few dozen kilometres (which is what India needs to do). BRO, despite all failings, has a really tough job and they have done quite well.

Secondly, the author makes it look like it is a combat in plains, when it isn't (mostly). What options does a force have, even if three times bigger, against a prepared defensive army holding high ground in mountains ?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby manjgu » 10 May 2013 06:13

@srin.... yes BRO has a tough job but surely has not done well. Have u ever travelled on border roads espicially in Ladhak and AP?? try the road which goes to chushul from Tangste... now this route is at an altitude but on flat ground and yet this road is such a mess... or the alternate route to chushul from pangong lake side ( enroute maan, merak village side), which is even bigger mess. Given the nature of job and the challenge and the urgency , BRO is totally not upto it. though the srinagar > Leh road looked much improved ahead of Drass... but still so much work to do and the BRO pace is glacial.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_26645 » 10 May 2013 09:29

@manjgu...my first post here on BR and I totally agree with you in terms of BRO not being up to the job. Sad but true. Being from Ladakh I can attest to quite a few places where there are flat plains but the roads are in such a mess. Even for certain roads for which the funds are fully provided by the govt instead in piecemeal amounts the quality is substandard due to corruption. Few are built properly as a showcase which then creates a false impression that they are doing a good job. Some of the new roads built in strategic locations have many bumps which makes it impossible to travel more than 30/40 km/h without the vehicle losing control. So you can now visualize the barrel of an artillery being towed by the trucks on these roads bobbing up and down in excitement as if it had some organic life if you know what I mean.

I could not understand why they couldn't fill the bumps initially with soil and rocks freely available on either sides of the road in those vast empty high plains. I guess its the chalta hai attitude. Everyone is talking about urgency but the facts on the ground prove otherwise. While I truly appreciate BRO for all the work they have done in the past but nowadays they need to bring it up to speed and into the 21st century. The slow pace of build is truly staggering. Bunch of hard working laborers working with very few equipment. Instead we need more mechanical equipments in these places where lack of oxygen and cold truly affects the stamina of a labourer and thereby the pace of build. Take for example the Korzok - Chumur road which was recently built by a reputed private engineering firm from southern India. They focused on bringing the proper mechanical equipments for these heights and they have done an excellent job. Now one can travel from Leh to Chumur in around 7/8 hours instead of a day or two.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby manjgu » 10 May 2013 09:49

@jigmet...welcome to BR. I travelled extensively thru ladhak in oct 12, though i go to ladhak almost everywhere since last 4/5 years and road infrastructure has not changed/improved visibly, though lot of blasting, widening is going on. but the pace is glacial to say the least. went to chushul, nyoma, shyok, maan merak villages ( along pangong), lukung>phobrang>... and the story is same everywhere... roads even on flat terrain are in terrible shape and the chinkis are not preventing you from improving those :( . What is the route for going to chumur from Leh?? thru nyoma, hanle ?? How long is the road from Korzok to Chumur which has been built by private co? IIRC Korzok is next to Tso Mori..

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby JE Menon » 10 May 2013 09:55

Welcome to BR Jigmet... Kindly read forum guidelines if you haven't already done so. Good to have you here.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_26645 » 10 May 2013 10:49

@manjgu & JE Menon...thanks.

You take the road towards Tso Moriri from Leh. At the Mahe bridge junction one needs to take a right turn and go over the bridge towards Tso Moriri. At the Mahe bridge junction one needs to show permits to the police stationed there. A few kms before reaching Korzok village on the banks of Tso Moriri the road divides into two and one needs to take the left turn towards Chumur. I believe the new road length is around 70/80 kms. Yes....Korzok village is the only settlement around Tso Moriri.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby subhamoy.das » 10 May 2013 11:08

There is down side of nice roads and bridges on your own side. Enemy can use it as well and do a rapid advance and that is why the first thing the retreating armies do is to blow up roads and bridges to stop enemy advace. So there was a deliberate stragegy to keep the roads that way to slow down CHINESE advances. What prevents the IA from using the CHINESE roads to do deep incursion, provided UPA has the political will for the same. And nice roads can be easily blown up, just like airstrips, by sending in a few missiles. Few deep craters and all advances will stop. Let us not think that these roads are to be used by civilians doing 100mp on expensive cars. These roads are to be used to move troops and supplies and basic quality should be good enough. Having said that we seem to have not been doing even that in some areas. That needs to be taken care immediately.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby manjgu » 10 May 2013 11:50

@s.das... there was no deliberate strategy but crass foolishness and timidity. If it was such a good strategy what changed now?? lets admit that we have been extremely foolish on this count. i was shocked to learn that the bomidala/tawang road and ahead was made by chinese during the war !! having good LofC is so vital to war effort is a think even known to novices...

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Lalmohan » 10 May 2013 12:17

manjgu - from my reading it was a deliberate strategy to keep the main roads away from the points where chinese could break through

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby subhamoy.das » 10 May 2013 12:38

If we could build good roads on western front then why not on easter front? Because on western front our strategy is offensive and we need good roads for that. On eastern front the startegy is defensive in nature and hence bad roads to slow down Chinese offensive. I would buy this logic. Now we are gearing up for offensive on eastern board and hence this build up. So bascailly we now are getting ready for 2 pronged offensive stragegy. I think that is the message.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby manjgu » 10 May 2013 13:13

@lalmohan @s.das... if u get a chance do read up "Himalayan Blunder" by Brig JP Dalvi on 1962 debacle ..the book will clarify many of the points / doubts u have on this issue. the point is that the political masters of the day ignored defence ( including troop build up, equipment, building LofC along Indo china border). Stupid decisions of the day were sought to be explained in terms of deliberate strategy, back stabbing by chinese etc. JP Dalvi is lamenting the lack of roads all thru the book and how they were unable to supply anythng to the troops and their repeated requests for road building and their inability to confront the chinese from thag la ridge to bomdia...to the plains of assam... due to poor LofC.

With a poor infrastructure ( as it was in 1962) India could not stop chinese from coming into plains of Assam ..i dont know how they hoped that bad roads will be a deter the chinese in future?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby aditya.agd » 10 May 2013 13:14

It seems that Indians try to negotiate even those things that shouldn't be negotiated. Why Indian territory is being negotiated? Is Indian army not capable of defending India? Very sorry to see Indian govt bowing down to Chinese arm twisting... :rotfl:

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby krishnan » 10 May 2013 13:26

bowing down ??? this is something else

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Lalmohan » 10 May 2013 13:26

manjgu - thanks, also read tellis's book on the indian recessed deterrent, he goes into a lot of analysis on the N-S vs E-W axis problem for each side

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby adityadange » 10 May 2013 17:15

guys i want to present a theory w.r.t. post made by subhamoy.das above on 2 front war.

i suppose india has made choice of balancing its avaiable resources. since majority of offensive power is concentrated on west, IA will start offence on west front and try to capture karakoram highway as soon as possible while holding eastern front in such way that chinese offence will be limited upto bottom of himalayas at indian side. paralally IN will try to intercept every china bound ship specially oil tankers. since pakistan lacks strategic depth it is *relatively* easy to reach upto KKH. lets say this can be achieved in one month. once this is achieved china will slowly starve for oil. and pakistani offensive power will be much exhausted. then india will start counter attack on chinese front with the limited offenseive assets on eastern front.
here the point is while attacking chinese will climb down to indian side but once they are weak and under attack it will be very very difficult for them to climb back to the platue. at this point the terrain will also be on indian side since indians will be better used to it. chinese can be trapped between himalay on one side and IA on other. this way chinese attack can be neutralized.

i admit above theory must have some (maybe too many) flaws and there are many assumptions. and might have been presented earlier on BR. i also dont know what are each others offensive/defensive capabilities. but that can explain why we dont have good infra on eastern front.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Lalmohan » 10 May 2013 18:31

a full blown indo-china war cannot last more than a few days before both sides are out of ammo and vast areas have been devastated
its more about threat than actual hot war

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 10 May 2013 21:39


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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 10 May 2013 21:43


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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Philip » 11 May 2013 06:12

Katare,facts are facts.This wretched UPA govt. has slept over defence and security for a decade.Take a holistic view of the situ in the IA-short of ammo,no artillery,lacks a Himalayan border infrastructure,yet to get its Army Air Corps,light and heavy helos,etc.For how long have chief after chief protested the delays in decision-making and procurement?

What about the defeatist mentality in the MEA/Remember the disastrous S-al-S summit and who spoke about Baluchistan,and at whose behest (Uncle Sam's) ? What have we done to Pak after 26/11 and the barbaric treatmen t of Indian soldiers and prisoners? Not even a diplomatic rap on the knuckles and Chinese creeping intrusion has been going on uabatedly for a decade+.At the curent moment,this despicable regime wants to sweep the dirt of its own making under the carpet,present a false picture of "everything is normal",and is ready to kowtow to the PRC to save its bacon! What may I also ask is the great track record of the MEA in regional diplomacy? Read the facts as described by former diplomats.Sri Lanka goes on a honeymoon with the Chinese,the Maldives snub us,we can't even sign a meaningful treaty with B'Desh and pro-China Nepal cares a hoot about our concerns.

The sad truth is that this regime has been so busy looting and scooting that it has had no time to concentrate upon India's diplomatic and military strategy in the face of the Sino-Pak combine that is rapidly strangulating us.if anyone thinks that our foreign and defence policy is sound and in sound hands,they are suffering from mental delusions and should see a shrink!

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Indrajit » 11 May 2013 07:24

The whole border incursion exercise by the PLA is a prelude to the takeover of Chumar as I see it.IA should be very watchful of the events in that sector for the next six months,we should be having regular patrols & UAV surveillance.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 11 May 2013 08:04

Question: Was the IA move to place whatever in the Chumar area (along with the tin shed) a legal move? Does anyone know?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_26645 » 11 May 2013 11:01

NRao wrote:Question: Was the IA move to place whatever in the Chumar area (along with the tin shed) a legal move? Does anyone know?


Few news site mention army dismantling bunkers/tin sheds at Zhipugi Arla in Chumur area. On this coordinate below in Google maps it seems the chinese call it Zhipuqi and is well within their side even considering the disputed dotted area right next to Chumur. Seems like we went 7/8 kms inside their territory (correct me if I am wrong). A tit for tat response to DBO intrusion?

32.570397,78.607521

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Will » 11 May 2013 18:03

All we hear of and all the media potrays are incursions from the other side. No one reports about what the IA does. The IA and India as a nation is growing out of the 1962 dhoti shiver and is begining to assert itself :) The Chinese are getting jittery. Remember its not a joke for any nation to face two powerful navies, the Japanese and the US navy in the South China sea/Pacific and also the IN in the Indian Ocean, to have disputes with a lot of its neighbours and at the same time to contend with one of the largest and most potent armies in the world on a 4k long disputed border. We should be vigilant and assertive but there is no reason why we should have any fear of the Chinese. The IA today is in a much better position to stand up to the PLA and in 10 years time if things go to plan for the IA, the PLA will have lost the edge/advantage over the IA. The Chinese know this , thats why they want to tie us down on agreements like freeze on border infrastructure. Me thinks the Chinese are begining to feel the Indian Chilli in their Szechaun Sauce :D

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 11 May 2013 18:14

The reason I asked that question is that there are stretches as wide as 100 Kms that are disputed. Which is why both are right. That Indian leadership is slow and corrupt is a given, but my picture of the LAC is a lot more under control than the media has led us to believe.

However, for what it is worth, here is an interesting take:

India responded in six hours flat

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby kit » 11 May 2013 19:25

Will wrote:All we hear of and all the media potrays are incursions from the other side. No one reports about what the IA does. The IA and India as a nation is growing out of the 1962 dhoti shiver and is begining to assert itself :) The Chinese are getting jittery. Remember its not a joke for any nation to face two powerful navies, the Japanese and the US navy in the South China sea/Pacific and also the IN in the Indian Ocean, to have disputes with a lot of its neighbours and at the same time to contend with one of the largest and most potent armies in the world on a 4k long disputed border. We should be vigilant and assertive but there is no reason why we should have any fear of the Chinese. The IA today is in a much better position to stand up to the PLA and in 10 years time if things go to plan for the IA, the PLA will have lost the edge/advantage over the IA. The Chinese know this , thats why they want to tie us down on agreements like freeze on border infrastructure. Me thinks the Chinese are begining to feel the Indian Chilli in their Szechaun Sauce :D


Well said., but if India gets its act together faster the better it is in the long run.Get out of the chalta hai attitude for starters. These are times that could very well portend how the future turns out both for the indian people as well as the state.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby sourab_c » 11 May 2013 20:19

^ Not to mention the jawans at the front are feeling helpless and frustrated; judging by the govt-army differences, it is clear that they have now decided to take matters in their own hands. If the Chinese can manage to make our blood boil, imagine how the guys at the front feel. The PLA will have to deal with an angry, highly motivated and a fierce fighting force. Besides, our soldiers fight for the cause of defending their motherland, not enslavement and ethnic cleansing like the PLA.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Katare » 11 May 2013 22:29

Philip wrote:Katare,facts are facts.This wretched UPA govt. has slept over defence and security for a decade.Take a holistic view of the situ in the IA-short of ammo,no artillery,lacks a Himalayan border infrastructure,yet to get its Army Air Corps,light and heavy helos,etc.For how long have chief after chief protested the delays in decision-making and procurement?

What about the defeatist mentality in the MEA/Remember the disastrous S-al-S summit and who spoke about Baluchistan,and at whose behest (Uncle Sam's) ? What have we done to Pak after 26/11 and the barbaric treatmen t of Indian soldiers and prisoners? Not even a diplomatic rap on the knuckles and Chinese creeping intrusion has been going on uabatedly for a decade+.At the curent moment,this despicable regime wants to sweep the dirt of its own making under the carpet,present a false picture of "everything is normal",and is ready to kowtow to the PRC to save its bacon! What may I also ask is the great track record of the MEA in regional diplomacy? Read the facts as described by former diplomats.Sri Lanka goes on a honeymoon with the Chinese,the Maldives snub us,we can't even sign a meaningful treaty with B'Desh and pro-China Nepal cares a hoot about our concerns.

The sad truth is that this regime has been so busy looting and sc ooting that it has had no time to concentrate upon India's diplomatic and military strategy in the face of the Sino-Pak combine that is rapidly strangulating us.if anyone thinks that our foreign and defence policy is sound and in sound hands,they are suffering from mental delusions and should see a shrink!

Philip, that was my point, your replies have nothing to do with the issue at hand. These are your standard talking points to preach rest of the humanity about your views on UPA and USA. To achieve your primary objective you pollute every thread with you highly partisan and OT political attacks on GoI and evil west. But what's really disturbing is your effort to disguise your political rhetoric as relevant facts to each and every issue at hand.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_22019 » 12 May 2013 00:00

Katare wrote:...To achieve your primary objective you pollute every thread with you highly partisan and OT political attacks on GoI and evil west. But what's really disturbing is your effort to disguise your political rhetoric as relevant facts to each and every issue at hand.

If anyone points to the root cause and that is indeed political (and more specific to a political party), why are you making a personal attack on the person. It amounts to shooting the messenger. Can you please provide any better reasoning for the current turmoils we as a nation are facing from everywhere? If not, I doubt your intentions.

Don't want to derail this thread, but could not stop myself seeing such kind of comment.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 12 May 2013 02:10

India has right to build infrastructure along border, Antony says

Funny. St. Anthony is going toe to toe with the Chinese foreign affairs guy.

Wonder if they have ever discussed a no-man zone. Guess that would be the easiest way out.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Misraji » 12 May 2013 02:58


From an optimist's point-of-view, its good to have official confirmation that they will atleast try and grow a pair of b@lls .... :mrgreen:

--Ashish

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 12 May 2013 03:35

Both are jockeying for position. India claimed incursion of 19 Kms, China said they did not cross the border - so that place where both pitched tents is disputed land. I think so is the one in Chumar, where India built a tin shed. My feel is that India pushed the envelope and if it was done under stealth they would have pulled it off. That shed and perhaps some machinery gave it away.

WRT b@lls, dunno. I can recall stories from the 70s where India did not back down. Had a cousin (who passed away last month) who had some nice little stories to tell from that era.

Now if they can get that strike corp in place it would be nice.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby subhamoy.das » 12 May 2013 06:34

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/opi ... 006435.cms

The other way of looking at it that UPA wilted in 3 weeks and so the PLA returned and then the spin being put to show it as a win for UPA. I suspect why MMS made the call. That call is made by the side which is under stress to solve it. PLA was not in rush to solve it but MMS was and hence the call.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby aditya.agd » 12 May 2013 16:08

Looks like India hasn't learnt any lesson from 1962 war and Indians do not have any policy against the Chinese .... GOI appears to have kept army weak to control it.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Gagan » 12 May 2013 19:04

GoI is part and parcel with the videshis.
The Indian armed forces AND a mil-industrial complex is being delibrately being kept weak in India, AND deliberately under sarkari control.
GoI does not want the Mil-Industrial complex to have a life of its own and drive policy. They feel rightly or wrongly that this can be a frankenstein and want to nip it in the bud before they have to reign it in.

The result will always be that war as an option in diplomacy or the threat of war is off the table every time.

India does not have economic clout as yet in terms of us being net givers of Aid, and GoI already has taken military action off the table.


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