China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

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DavidD
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby DavidD » 14 Aug 2013 11:57

I think there's a disconnect here, are we talking about an all-out war between China and India, like a life-or-death kind of thing, or just a border conflict? I'm talking about a border conflict, since it's unfathomable that either side would risk a nuclear conflict let alone consider conquering the other nation across the Himalayas.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby kish » 14 Aug 2013 12:05

ashi wrote:
Eric Leiderman wrote:ashi
China tends to portray more than the capabilities it possesses , Which is fine for domestic consumption of the little princes with large egos.
India tends to understate its capabilities.


Eric, what I what know and what I remember, it is the opposite. Like the "forward policy" that couldn't be backed up with real capabilities and it led to the border war, the rest is history.


Nonsense. "Rape of Nanking" happened, does it mean china would let it happen again?? :lol:

India has adequate navel capability to blockade chinese navel ships

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_22019 » 14 Aug 2013 12:10

DavidD wrote:I think there's a disconnect here, are we talking about an all-out war between China and India...


Why are you assuming that border conflict cannot escalate to an all out war? Its not an olympic sport where there are rules and referries.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby ashi » 14 Aug 2013 12:21

kish wrote:Nonsense. "Rape of Nanking" happened, does it mean china would let it happen again?? :lol:

India has adequate navel capability to blockade chinese navel ships


Which part of my reply to Eric is predicting a future war outcome???? I am just using an pass example to prove Eric's point is incorrect.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby kish » 14 Aug 2013 12:25

^^^ You used your example "forward policy & rest is history" to prove your point. I used my "Rape of Nanking" to prove mine.

Is it that hard to understand??

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_22019 » 14 Aug 2013 12:38

kish wrote:^^^ You used your example "forward policy & rest is history" to prove your point. I used my "Rape of Nanking" to prove mine.

Is it that hard to understand??


Understanding is censored in china.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Eric Leiderman » 14 Aug 2013 12:58

Ashi and David

There is a very real possibility a border skirmish can escalate.

Wars are not fought on set pieces.

Playing chicken can be dangerous.

To get a country like post ww2 Japan riled up, That has taken some serious prodding.

Keep prodding one day it will hit a hornets nest.

The moment China were to start something , she has lost it geo-politically , in the sense a large powerful alliance will be formalized, all it takes is the right spark

So chill out and follow your (imported) buddist heritage.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_26622 » 14 Aug 2013 15:16

Most wars were started when a growing (economically and militarily) country wanted access to more resources/markets and China is no different. This game will get out of hand and will cause bloodshed-lots of it.

China has already shown its intentions by gobbling up Tibet, laying claims to vast underwater territories. It's just a matter of time. India needs to build a very strong defense and be willing to shed blood early to signal our strong intent.

We need to make the cost of border skirmishes so high that China will go seeking easier outlets for their adventurism. Stop all imports/exports for six months the next time another flare up happens. Make this loud and clear to prepare everyone. We will win half the battle if global majors start diversifying out of china in anticipation of such an event.

Our trade balance is negative 20 billion with China, it's like arming your enemy - Need to curtail this ASAP.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby pankajs » 15 Aug 2013 21:23

DavidD wrote:I think there's a disconnect here, are we talking about an all-out war between China and India, like a life-or-death kind of thing, or just a border conflict? I'm talking about a border conflict, since it's unfathomable that either side would risk a nuclear conflict let alone consider conquering the other nation across the Himalayas.
Brother who is talking of nuclear war? All folks here are saying is that if India ever comes under pressure in one sector favoring the Chinese, they might choose to open another sector where things will favor them and that sector might be the Strait of Malacca. So the assumption that India will only play by the script written by the Chinese is naive.

If you are still unconvinced, ask your friends the pakis about the 1965 conflict. They too had assumed that Indians would only go by the script written in Pakistan and where proven wrong.

As far as Strait of Malacca is concerned, why just mine the whole damn mouth of the Strait and the first couple of blow-ups will send the necessary message to the world wide shipping community. While no one likes loss of trade and loss of human lives, corporations like risk, loss of capital ships and claim payout even less. No shooting no finger pointing just plain results.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby DavidD » 16 Aug 2013 12:25

Forgive my lack of imagination, but I just can't think of a scenario where either China or India will be suckered into a war that'll benefit...well, anyone but China and India. All I can foresee is maybe one of those border standoffs escalate into a short regional war that'll see maybe a few kilometers exchanged if any at that. Neither side has anything to gain by fighting the other, and as the old saying goes, good fences make good neighbors. Well, rejoice folks, because China and India has the best fence in the world in the form of the Himalayas. If these two ancient civilizations hasn't had a real fight in millenias, why start now?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby vishvak » 16 Aug 2013 12:43

What is the point of fighting then even for a few kilometers. There is much more to this - even when Indians have not blocked trade routes for decades. Chinese seem to be not aware of benefits of peace and costs of war especially when Chinese war doctrines seem to be written at times when Chinese were marching long and far with healthy economic situation.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Austin » 16 Aug 2013 23:55

Chinese soldiers cross over border, this time to celebrate India's I-Day

A special Border Personnel Meeting between India and China was held to celebrate Independence day at the historic 'Maitri Sthal' at the Bum La pass in Tawang district of Arunachal Pradesh.

Image

A large contingent of the Chinese army personnel along with their families came over to the Indian side of the border as part of the special Border Personnel Meeting (BPM).

A large number of civilian visitors from both sides also came to witness the Independence day celebrations, which included a grand cultural programme depicting the rich cultural diversity of India, a defence press release said on Friday.

Despite the language barrier, people from both sides interacted with each other in a friendly and cordial environment and cheerfully posed for photographs on the special occasion.

The BPMs between the two armies serve as a vital platform for resolving local issues and fostering confidence amongst the two nations with a view to enhance peace in the sector.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Philip » 19 Aug 2013 02:12

China's game plan.

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... game-plan/

The Chinese Game Plan
By Bharat Verma
Issue Vol. 28.3 Jul-Sep 2013 | Date : 19 Aug , 2013

Nawaz Sharif and Li Keqiang

With the opening of two fronts against New Delhi, Beijing will, in collusion with Islamabad, repeat ‘1962’ in the near future on an enlarged scale.

The ‘peace’ witnessed in Kashmir for many years was not due to any extraordinary Indian capabilities; it was because Pakistan was preoccupied with the ongoing war in Afghanistan pursuing its own strategic interests and that of China.

As a tactical ploy for the past several years, Beijing and Islamabad have been dishing out sermons on friendship. China has used its lobby successfully in India to promote the concept that the two nations, instead of being at loggerheads with each other, should join hands to make the twenty-first century theirs.

The twin objective was to concentrate on the American forces; firstly, with the help of Pakistan to ensure the withdrawal of US forces from Afghanistan and secondly, that India does not shake hands decisively with the US thereby tilting the balance of power in favour of democracy.

Similarly, Pakistan, more or less a colony of China, went out of its way to promote friendship with India, using the oft employed ploy of the ‘twenty-first century belonging to Asia’. The refrain was that instead of fighting with each other Pakistan, China and India should join hands to evict American imperialism from Asia. Pakistan deployed its journalists on Indian channels at times bending backwards to placate Indian sentiments. Simultaneously, they effectively activated Pakistan’s peace constituency in India that is much larger than the one that exists in Islamabad to gain major traction. The continuous ranting of Pakistan being a bigger victim of terrorism and putting a temporary leash on Hafiz Sayeed did help to pull the wool over a large number of Indian eyes.

The aim of the China and Pakistan combine was to first employ jihadi forces in Afghanistan under the guidance of the Pakistan Army to evict the Western forces. Therefore, it was imperative to offer a fig leaf in the guise of friendship that retains calm on the Indian front. It was merely a tactical withdrawal to concentrate all available resources against the Americans in Afghanistan. Meanwhile under China’s guidance, India’s Track II crowd was enticed to sign, seal and deliver Siachen to Pakistan as the glacier is of great strategic importance to the Chinese. In the so-called Track-II diplomacy, India walked straight into the trap!

At the same time, to gain credibility with thinking Indians, both Pakistan and China desisted from aggravating the situation on the borders. However, the so-called misguided elements that left Kashmir for PoK were sent back duly trained in jihad on the pretext of temporary surrender; the real game being to wait for an opportune moment to engineer a home-grown rebellion. All along, the pot was kept intelligently boiling but on slow fire. The ‘peace’ witnessed in Kashmir for many years was not due to any extraordinary Indian capabilities; it was because Pakistan was preoccupied with the ongoing war in Afghanistan pursuing its own strategic interests and that of China. Undoubtedly, these were high priority military objectives.

With the withdrawal of US forces from the region, the jihad factory will be idle. Pakistan can implode due to this situation of high unemployment.

As usual, on account of collective incompetence, the establishment at Delhi fell for this ruse. It was the conduct of ‘psychological warfare’ under Chinese supervision at its finest. Executed with finesse, the phase of temporary tactical withdrawal put New Delhi completely off guard. Pakistan believes it has defeated two super powers in Afghanistan – the Soviet Union with the help of the US and the latter, with the help of China. Defeating India with a little help from China should, therefore, be a cakewalk.

The gloves are finally off with America’s ‘cut and run’ from Afghanistan. With the exit of the West, China and Pakistan are now confident that large areas of Afghanistan will be under their thumb. In due course, Indian footprint in Afghanistan will be wiped out.

In the second phase currently underway, India’s borders have come alive with China and Pakistan mounting intense pressure simultaneously. The PLA intruded 19 km across the LAC into Indian territory and dismantled existing structures. To add insult to injury, on the arrival of the Defence Minister Antony at Shanghai, Beijing issued a demeaning statement against New Delhi. Incursions into Indian territories continue while Chinese innocently claim they are patrolling on their side of the LAC.

For all the insults the Chinese continue to heap on India, they were rewarded by New Delhi rolling out the red carpet for Li, withdrawing troops from own territory in Despang, and sending the NSA, Foreign Minister and the Defence Minster in succession to pay respects as though Beijing were an ‘imperial Durbar’. In spite of being insulted on landing at Beijing, the Defence Minister announced the enhancement of military-to-military cooperation between the two nations! To be subservient appears to be a persistent trait of the Indian leadership. It is simply amazing that New Delhi should offer military-to-military cooperation to China – a country that is at loggerheads with it all the while laying claim to 90,000 sq.km. of Indian territory.

Pakistan has gone into overdrive, beheading Indian soldiers inside Indian territory. In a raid in the Poonch sector, its Battle Action Team massacred five Indian soldiers. The timing and intelligence of the adversary appear to be flawless as this killing has taken place at a time when the Maratha battalion was taking over from the exiting Bihar Regiment – a time when the units are not on a high state of alert.

In order to deter the China-Pakistan combine from inflicting war, India will need to rapidly equip its Army and the Air Force with deep offensive capabilities and phenomenal maneuverability even as it builds up a blue-water navy.

China excels in long-term strategic thinking; its shared ethnicity with the people of the North-East India enables its spies to blend in easily with the people in the North-East region. However, China is limited by language and facial features to mess with the Indian heartland and proxy Pakistan, with no such limitations intermingles with ease within India. Pakistan, in coordination with China, has now put pressure on the border. At the same time, it has helped instigate, with renewed vigour, ethnic cleansing of Hindus in Kishtwar and Doda. This move is similar to that of Kashmiri Pundits ultimately being dislodged from the Valley while New Delhi continued to indulge in despicable vote-bank politics.

As it was with China, the Pakistan Army claimed that it was not responsible for any incident on the borders. Meanwhile, the sloppy response from the Delhi Durbar has emboldened Pakistan High Commission to raise questions on internal matters concerning India. With the withdrawal of US forces from the region, the jihad factory will be idle. Pakistan can implode due to this situation of high unemployment. Therefore, to redirect the destructive energy of this force towards India to achieve foreign policy objectives and avoid implosion would be an imperative for Pakistan.

Pakistani journalists appearing on Indian electronic media in the second phase changed their tune from soothing ruffled feathers earlier to declaring ‘a fight to the finish’ for the independence of Kashmir and vacating Siachen. On monitoring comments in the social media, the chant from, “India and China should join hands to make the twenty-first century belong to South Asia” has shifted to “India, whether it likes it or not, has to live with China and Pakistan, now that the Americans are running away. It has no choice but to join us!”

The second phase by China and Pakistan will continue for some time to further weaken Indian borders and inject communal disharmony through covert operations till sufficient demoralization sets in, American withdrawal is complete and a large swathe of Afghanistan’s territory is controlled by the Pakistan Army with the help of its jihadi forces.

In the final phase, the Chinese game plan is to repeat a much larger version of “1962” by imposing a two-front war on India once the Western forces are out of Afghanistan. Many in the Indian military, the government and a few analysts erroneously believe that China will opt for a limited attack in Ladakh.

The coming years will witness the territorial integrity of the nation coming under severe stress due to threats posed by the Great Chinese Game.

In the current globalised century, waging war attracts severe economic penalties on a nation with the long-term debilitating consequences. Therefore, the prize has to justify the cost-benefit-ratio. In what may be termed as a repeat of 1962, the China-Pakistan combine will impose war on India at a time of their choosing which may be sooner than one can imagine.

China will go for the jugular by landing its airborne divisions and choking the 200-km long Siliguri Corridor that is merely 28 km to 60 km wide. On one side, we have Nepal, which is now almost a colony of China. On the other side, Bhutan is under pressure from Beijing to toe its line. This implies that the entire North-East region may be cut off from the Indian mainland. Apart from this region adding to flank protection as far as Tibet is concerned, China will gain direct access to Bangladesh and easier access to Myanmar.

Simultaneously, Pakistan will attack the Western front to unhook Jammu and Kashmir from India after creating sufficient internal turmoil to soften the target. China has always supported and will readily accept Jammu and Kashmir to be part of Pakistan. In the event of Pakistani success, China can hive off large chunks of territory in Ladakh to suit its strategic interests. Besides, the key advantage to China will be securing the flanks of alternative supply route from Gwaddar to Xingjian Province. This two-front war will also guarantee China’s position as the undisputed leader in Asia substantially reducing the preeminence of the USA.

In order to deter the China-Pakistan combine from inflicting war, India will need to rapidly equip its Army and the Air Force with deep offensive capabilities and phenomenal maneuverability even as it builds up a blue-water navy. Indian intelligence agencies should gear up to support separatist forces inside Tibet and Pakistan. In addition, Indian foreign policy must decisively leverage the influence of democracies in Asia and the West, particularly the USA.

The coming years will witness the territorial integrity of the nation coming under severe stress due to threats posed by the Great Chinese Game.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 19 Aug 2013 06:48

............... events will force India and US to come closer ............................

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Philip » 19 Aug 2013 10:19

That is a debatable matter,unless the US is more accommodating to Indian interests and stops supporting Pak. to the hilt,putting its own selfish intersts first,instead of pressurising our spineless wonders into a "peace in our time" with Pak,making huge concessions to Pak,ceding across the table what Pak has not won on the battlefield ! .

In the Strat. page I recommended the use of tactical N-weapons to deter a Sino-Pak JV. Telepathic.V.Adm. AK Singh ,former FOC C-in-C of E.Command recommends the very same.

http://www.asianage.com/columnists/dete ... attack-259

Deterring a joint China-Pak attack
Aug 19, 2013

Arun Kumar Singh

To protect our territorial integrity, we need to change India’s “no first use” (NFU) doctrine to make it similar to that of Pakistan and China. India should declare that it may use tactical nuclear weapons in case its “red lines” are crossed.

In 2008, based on my four-decade-long experience in the Indian Navy and Coast Guard, small activities and border skirmishes caught my attention and, as I began studying them, I saw a diabolic pattern emerging.

Alarmingly, it all added up to Pakistani terrorists getting ready to carry out an attack on India by sea. On May 19, 2008, The Asian Age published my article, The next terror attack could be from the sea. The carnage of 26/11 took place six months later.
Fifty-one years after the disastrous 1962 war with China, India continues to pay the price for ignoring its defences, this time in Ladakh, where lack of infrastructure (there is still no road link from Leh to the eastern airstrip at Daulat Beg Oldi, and men need to march for six days across mountainous terrain to cover this distance), and lack of adequate force levels have left a vulnerability which is being exploited skilfully by China. Favourable flat terrain, excellent Chinese infrastructure and force availability means that Chinese troops can reach the disputed territory in eastern Ladakh in 12-24 hours.
The recent change of political leadership in China and Pakistan, along with the impending American withdrawal from Afghanistan, has resulted in more coordinated China-Pak activities along our borders. When Nawaz Sharif came to power on June 5, 2013, he immediately set up the “Kashmir cell”. Less than two months later, on August 2, 2013, bombs went off near our Jalalabad consulate. Now, studying the pattern of activities along the Line of Control (LoC) in Kashmir (the August 6 killing of five jawans, firing along the LoC and the Kishtwar riots) and the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Ladakh (the April 2013 Depsang area faceoff, and present probes by the Chinese Army), I am once again worried that a joint China-Pak threat may materialise at very short notice, specially now that we are in “election mode”.
China, worried about the security of its proposed $18 billion “energy corridor” (oil pipeline, road and rail links) from Xinjiang province to Gwadar port via Karakoram mountains, has apparently decided that it needs to grab some disputed territory in eastern Ladakh, close to its proposed energy corridor.
Given the infrastructure and military capability in eastern Ladakh — armed Indian policemen and a few soldiers — the Chinese Army can launch an air-ground offensive with 10-20,000 motorised troops and 100-300 tanks to capture the entire area it claims as its own in north-eastern Ladakh in 48 hours. The border airstrips of Daulat Beg Oldi and Nyoma could be captured by Chinese helicopter-borne forces in a few hours, thus cutting off airborne logistics to eastern Ladakh. Active intervention by the Indian Air Force (IAF), even if approved immediately by the government, may have little impact on the outcome given the current force levels on both sides.
If it seizes about 1,000 sq km in north-eastern Ladakh, China would not only ensure security of its proposed “Karakoram-Gwadar” energy corridor, but also make our positions on the Saltoro ridge untenable — our troops would have the Chinese behind them and the Pakistanis in front.
If this crisis were to erupt, Chinese warships, submarines and aircraft would move to Gwadar port and airfield, thus nullifying peninsular India’s natural geographical advantage of being located astride China’s sea lines of communications, through which it exports goods and imports energy. Gwadar-based Chinese naval units could cut off Indian energy imports from West Asia.
In April 2011, Pakistan signed a contract with China for delivery of six Qing-class conventional submarines, expected to begin entering service by 2014-15. Each of these Qing subs will have the capability to fire three nuclear-tipped CJ-10 cruise missiles with a range of 2,500 km.

India’s leaders need to remember that in the 1998 Pokhran II nuclear tests, India tested four nuclear devices (of 0.2, 0.4, 0.8 kilo and 14 tons each), which would qualify as tactical nuclear weapons (TNWs) for delivery against large enemy military formations invading our territory, including in Ladakh. These TNWs would deter a massive Chinese ground assault in eastern Ladakh, as they could decimate the invading force once it crossed into Indian territory. Of course, both China and Pakistan have TNWs, and will not hesitate to use them on India.
To protect our territorial integrity, we need to change India’s “no first use” (NFU) doctrine and make it similar to that of Pakistan and China. India should declare that it may use tactical nuclear weapons in case its “red lines” (eg. unacceptable loss of territory) are crossed. These TNWs must, of course, be inducted under strict control of the Nuclear Command Authority.
A hostile China-Pak adventure can only be deterred by nuclear weapons, political will and a new nuclear doctrine. Our Mandarin-speaking China experts and Punjabi-speaking Pakistani experts need to let professionals advise the government on security matters.

The writer retired as Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Eastern Naval Command, Visakhapatnam

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby vishvak » 19 Aug 2013 10:45

USA seems to be playing its own games. To listen to puki excuses about not being able to control jihadis attacking US assets or saying how Indians must show restraint on border - where is the connection here.

How many leverages can USA muster to keep pakis in line? Rest is BS. Paying more $$ to pukis through IMF while not stopping border attacks is clear indication. In fact we are not even pointing this out.

It's the same for China. If US wanted to it can make Chinese see defeat easily for NKorea situation, that the Chinese are not able to do much and buying time is an indicator. War profiteering on Indian soil should not be allowed especially when we are nuke weapon state. NKorea are merely pretenders.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby svinayak » 19 Aug 2013 20:20

NRao wrote:............... events will force India and US to come closer ............................

The events will be forced by US to let it happen on purpose!

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 19 Aug 2013 20:30

Acharya wrote:
NRao wrote:............... events will force India and US to come closer ............................

The events will be forced by US to let it happen on purpose!


Nope. I have been saying that for around 10+ years now and do not see much of a correlation. In fact in the current situation it is just the opposite.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby svinayak » 19 Aug 2013 20:37

Just look at the Mil grants and aid given to TSP over the last 25 years. It has no parallel in any other part of the world.
Support to PRC is in WTO, global organization beyond normal for any large country

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 19 Aug 2013 20:42

Acharya wrote:Just look at the Mil grants and aid given to TSP over the last 25 years. It has no parallel in any other part of the world.
Support to PRC is in WTO, global organization beyond normal for any large country


Are you saying that all that was part of a scripted US plan so that one day China and Pakistan would attack India?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby svinayak » 19 Aug 2013 20:48

NRao wrote:
Are you saying that all that was part of a US plan so that one day China and Pakistan would attack India?

Have you read the news report in the 80s and early 90s. Western news media were talking and supporting PRC base in Gwadar. Western news report was reporting on PRC and TSP road links in Karakoran. Western companies have helped in building the road links in Karakoram and other afpAk regions.
UK has some role in TSP ceding some POK areas to PRC. Look at the archives after 1963 about PRC and TSP relations.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 19 Aug 2013 20:54

Acharya wrote:
NRao wrote:
Are you saying that all that was part of a US plan so that one day China and Pakistan would attack India?

Have you read the news report in the 80s and early 90s. Western news media were talking and supporting PRC base in Gwadar. Western news report was reporting on PRC and TSP road links in Karakoran. Western companies have helped in building the road links in Karakoram and other afpAk regions.
UK has some role in TSP ceding some POK areas to PRC. Look at the archives after 1963 about PRC and TSP relations.


Oh, OK. Got it. Thx.

Got to let them script boys to write shorter scripts.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby vinod » 19 Aug 2013 21:12

Acharya wrote:
NRao wrote:............... events will force India and US to come closer ............................

The events will be forced by US to let it happen on purpose!


When our leaders are corrupt and spineless, we will be always pushed around. It doesn't matter who decides -US, China or Russia. We need our leaders to stand up and act! If they do that, we will have a feeling of our destiny being in our own hands and be sure of a better future. 10 years of Congi rule has brought from "India Shining" to "India Sinking" feeling!

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 19 Aug 2013 21:13

vinod wrote:
Acharya wrote:The events will be forced by US to let it happen on purpose!


When our leaders are corrupt and spineless, we will be always pushed around. It doesn't matter who decides -US, China or Russia. We need our leaders to stand up and act! If they do that, we will have a feeling of our destiny being in our own hands and be sure of a better future. 10 years of Congi rule has brought from "India Shining" to "India Sinking" feeling!


That cannot be part of the US script. The rot in India circles is an Indian script.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby svinayak » 19 Aug 2013 21:26

vinod wrote:When our leaders are corrupt and spineless, we will be always pushed around. It doesn't matter who decides -US, China or Russia. We need our leaders to stand up and act! If they do that, we will have a feeling of our destiny being in our own hands and be sure of a better future. 10 years of Congi rule has brought from "India Shining" to "India Sinking" feeling!

Indian interest has to be top most importance. Indian leadership has to keep Indian strategic interest dominant

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Manish_Sharma » 19 Aug 2013 23:15

NRao wrote:
Acharya wrote:Have you read the news report in the 80s and early 90s. Western news media were talking and supporting PRC base in Gwadar. Western news report was reporting on PRC and TSP road links in Karakoran. Western companies have helped in building the road links in Karakoram and other afpAk regions.
UK has some role in TSP ceding some POK areas to PRC. Look at the archives after 1963 about PRC and TSP relations.


Oh, OK. Got it. Thx.

Got to let them script boys to write shorter scripts.


Such arrogance! Such superiority complex!!!

You write a single short sentence every week to buttress your point that Bharatvarsh should buy US systems, that sentence is on the lines "....coming years US and Indian interests are going to converge more and more....."

That's it, great gyani has squeezed all the wisdom in one sentence. Fools are the people who write articles, essays to prove a point they make, or prediction they make...........

But from NRao ji one sentence, just one sentence is enough. Anybody who questions OR disagrees is given a irritated look on the lines of "......these retards need i explain them? isn't it enough that i have told them???......."

O well somebody points "tejas sanctions...... by americans...." hrrrmmpph brushed aside with irritation, 'what man are you living in last century?'

Acharya is pointing to somethings - some hardcore facts, well they're brushed aside as a 'script' . That's it, irritation expressed and THAT IS IT !!!

Ok ji I'm now convinced that IAF's IN's objections to EULA and EUMA should be :roll: upon. Those unprofessionals, what do they know they don't read NRao ji's vision "That we buy and converge our interests with US......"

They shouldn't object to all those EULAs & EUMAs. They shouldn't worry about sanctions if next PM in future wants to test for new warhead designs. And they shouldn't irritate NRao by giving attention to the unprecedented arming of pakis by US like thousand AMRAAMs (making beggars a BVR nation), providing them daily intel on IN's and IAF's movements.

Nope just 'Lagao antaa bajao ghantaa' buy US stuff and let them guide us through our journey, oh for both our mutual interests. :rotfl:

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Raveen » 20 Aug 2013 00:11

Dhananjay wrote:
NRao wrote:
Oh, OK. Got it. Thx.

Got to let them script boys to write shorter scripts.


Such arrogance! Such superiority complex!!!

You write a single short sentence every week to buttress your point that Bharatvarsh should buy US systems, that sentence is on the lines "....coming years US and Indian interests are going to converge more and more....."

That's it, great gyani has squeezed all the wisdom in one sentence. Fools are the people who write articles, essays to prove a point they make, or prediction they make...........

But from NRao ji one sentence, just one sentence is enough. Anybody who questions OR disagrees is given a irritated look on the lines of "......these retards need i explain them? isn't it enough that i have told them???......."

O well somebody points "tejas sanctions...... by americans...." hrrrmmpph brushed aside with irritation, 'what man are you living in last century?'

Acharya is pointing to somethings - some hardcore facts, well they're brushed aside as a 'script' . That's it, irritation expressed and THAT IS IT !!!

Ok ji I'm now convinced that IAF's IN's objections to EULA and EUMA should be :roll: upon. Those unprofessionals, what do they know they don't read NRao ji's vision "That we buy and converge our interests with US......"

They shouldn't object to all those EULAs & EUMAs. They shouldn't worry about sanctions if next PM in future wants to test for new warhead designs. And they shouldn't irritate NRao by giving attention to the unprecedented arming of pakis by US like thousand AMRAAMs (making beggars a BVR nation), providing them daily intel on IN's and IAF's movements.

Nope just 'Lagao antaa bajao ghantaa' buy US stuff and let them guide us through our journey, oh for both our mutual interests. :rotfl:



Calm down - NRao makes valid points, try and do the same and keep the personal attacks off the board.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Karan M » 20 Aug 2013 02:18

The Arming of Pakistan is a serious issue though....some $30Bn given as freebies so that they can face the indians with dignity..

http://www.firstpost.com/world/why-is-u ... 42879.html

The old mindset of some “babus” in the US State and Defence departments to keep Pakistan as a “regional balancer” against India is alive and well – an idea that incidentally also fits in with China’s plan of action. One official familiar with this thinking said the babus want the “Rawalpindi boys to be able to face India with dignity.” Thus the largesse of American weapons. Oh boy, I said.


The “dignity” has been furnished since 9/11 in the form of $20 billion, more than half of it in military aid of various kinds. The US government has funded eight P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft, 2,000 TOW anti-armor missiles, 14 older model F-16 fighter jets, 59 T-37 trainer jets, one missile frigate, six AN/TPS-77 surveillance radars, and 20 Cobra attack helicopters


Moving on to the pipeline of weapons — Pakistan has paid $1.43 billion from its “own” funds to buy 18 new F-16 advanced combat aircraft. It has bought a variety of heavy bombs and 500 – repeat 500 –AMRAAM air-to-air missiles for $629 million. It also bought 100 Harpoon anti-ship missiles and 500 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles for a total of $400 million. Just for comparison — India bought 24 Harpoons from the US in 2011 for $170 million.


The US has transferred humongous amounts of money to Pakistan since 2002 leaving enormous scope for fiddling the books.
The gravy train is called the Coalition Support Funds (CSF), which is actually meant to “reimburse” Pakistan for its “operational and logistical” support to US troops. On this train came $10.7 billion as of June this year.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby raj-ji » 20 Aug 2013 03:01

DavidD wrote:Forgive my lack of imagination, but I just can't think of a scenario where either China or India will be suckered into a war that'll benefit...well, anyone but China and India. All I can foresee is maybe one of those border standoffs escalate into a short regional war that'll see maybe a few kilometers exchanged if any at that. Neither side has anything to gain by fighting the other, and as the old saying goes, good fences make good neighbors. Well, rejoice folks, because China and India has the best fence in the world in the form of the Himalayas. If these two ancient civilizations hasn't had a real fight in millenias, why start now?


It is not in India or the Panda's interest to fight. War, even a small/regional one will ensure both countries economies take a big hit. And that's not in the interest of either country. Both sides know it, so the sabre rattling is for show.

Besides when it comes to military build ups in this area, everyone is chasing someone else:

The Pukis are chasing India
India is chasing China
China is chasing the US

The only players in our neighborhood who have nothing else to do but fight are the Pukis. Their economy and whole system revolves around this. They were paid for the proxy fight between the US and the Soviets in Afghanistan. And they are hoping to get paid for a fight with India by the Panda. The Pukis have nothing else going on, this is their only power play. This and peddling their n wares on the black market.

However, after the OBL raid, the US is all over them. And if there is a Panda backed Puki attack, the Panda are not in the best position either. They are running out of friends fast in their neighbourhood. There are a lot of upset countries, including the US. The tolerance for misbehavior by the Pukis or Pandas is running out. They will be very surprised with the reaction from the West.

Mining sea lanes and a blockade is an action that may be on the table if things get out of hand. Slap a high tarrif on all Panda goods, and back an active trade war against the Panda initiated by the US, Europe and Japan. This will hurt the Panda more than any war will.

When coffers start drying up in Panda land because the economy is creaking. The Panda's own internal strife will bring it down. The existing regime in Panda land will continue as long as their economy is strong. They will have tremendous internal pressures once their economy slows down. And it will.

The Panda is spending billions on internal security. They are spending billions keeping their currency low to impact exports. They have spent billions building cities that few even live in, to keep their local economies going. They have issues in Tibet, with the Uighurs, people from all over the country who are upset by massive land grabs. A growing population fed up with corruption, no freedoms and low wages. Their one child policy has caused a massive imbalance in their work force, they will have an older population that will require more state help. Rampant pollution, poverty and lack of any safety standards. Add this to their incredibly high defence budgets. Possible conflicts with Vietnam, Phillipines and Japan. And you have a situation where loads of cash is needed, and they can pay this as long as their economy is running well. Things slow down for a period of time and it will hit them hard.

Most of the above issues are a problem in India as well. But in India, one can vote. The vote is the common man's chance to change or maintain the path of the country. In Panda land, how will the more than a billion people ask for change? Most likely not in a smooth and orderly way.

An agressive posture and measured response by our armed forces is needed. But missiles and guns are not the only weapons in our arsenals. There are other methods that can bring out dramatic results.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 20 Aug 2013 03:06

The Arming of Pakistan is a serious issue though


Sure. But that is ONLY a tactical issue (which hurts India immensely granted).

And, there are other tactical issues - Iran is another one. Japan and Oz were others.

So, I am not talking of tactical issues. Although they do play a role in the larger picture.

Check out what I have said, what I have been saying since around 1996-98:

............... events will force India and US to come closer ............................


I have never said that India or the US have become such buddies that they will do ....................... something.

Nope. It is events.

secondly, I am not looking at a low level stuff like buy this or that from the US.

Finally, I used to take a beating in the early days of BR, although - as an observation only - the last one is perhaps the most vicious one. I have even been called a US agent once (1999-2000).

But, here goes, the Iranian detention of an Indian ship will determine a lot of factors here on out. One shoe has fallen. And, India cannot make any mistakes here on out. And, she just may be on her own. She has no real friends.

Yet, events will drive the US and India closer.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Karan M » 20 Aug 2013 03:31

NRao, i understand your optimism, but the nature of power is that it corrupts and corrupts absolutely. Why would those @ the top of the empire in the US give up and agree to having India as a peer?

Unless the events are really catastrophic (for the US or India), I sincerely doubt the US will give up on arm twisting India and/or India will give up its own interests completely.

Unless a 1962 repeats, and we have to run pell mell to the US to save our SDRE skins, which one hopes wont happen. Doesn't seem too likely either.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 20 Aug 2013 04:02

KM,

I have never used any words such as optimism or the like. I just read data points and based on them I have stated what I feel. That is it.

"peer"? Nope. Coming closer does not mean considering others as peers. In fact in my previous post:

I have never said that India or the US have become such buddies


This is not about emotions or any permanent relationships. In fact I used to say that the two will part ways around 2025. Since about 3-4 years I have moved it to 2030/40.

Again:

... come closer ....


It is relative. So, we could go from (on a scale of 1-10 say) 1 to 2, or from 5 to 6, whatever. But do not tell me that the two are not closer today than over the past 10 years. And, like I said they will part ways in a few decades.

I have stated other things (France helped India with "testing" nukes. Ouch) and have laid an egg or two too (just that no one has picked them up - which is Ok with me).

Comments?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby KrishnaK » 20 Aug 2013 05:18

If we can't put a country 1/8th our size in its place, US/China notwithstanding what's the point in bitching about actions of the GotUS ? We've neither used our peaceful sikular existence so far to turn ourselves into a 10k USD per capita GPD economy, nor did we use our blessed non-munna existence to beat the living daylights out of pakistan. I wonder why the US is to blame here.

Oh wait, there's a perfectly simple reason for that. They have been running sociological psyops, subtly manipulating our opinions of ourselves, our behaviours. That plan's already been running for over 6 decades now and has been in planning for at least 60 more ?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby manjgu » 20 Aug 2013 05:28

@krshanK...quite agree with u..

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby kit » 20 Aug 2013 16:06

The US game is not in helping india but in tying India down ., arming pakistan is only one process in the chain.The want india to confront china just like pakistan is used as proxy by china against india.It is not in india s interests to be in the american camp at all ..100% . A neutered india will never forgive the political party or dynasty that even deigns to do it. Americans are the most chaloo of the whole lot .. which they have and will prove again.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Austin » 20 Aug 2013 22:23


MN Kumar
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby MN Kumar » 21 Aug 2013 15:32

While looking at google maps, a thought came that from an Indian perspective its not an easy thing for a Chinese Navy surface ship to enter our backyard without being detected, its their sub fleet that's going to be a cause for worry for us and which we need to keep a close watch. The noise about the Chinese carrier is basically from the western press especially the US.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby VinodTK » 24 Aug 2013 05:34

Why is the Global Times Celebrating India’s Aircraft Carrier?
In one of those things that makes you go hmmmm…. The Global Times is celebrating the launch of India’s indigenous aircraft carrier and nuclear submarine. In the GT op-ed, Liu Zongyi of the Shanghai Institutes for International Studies writes, “The launch of India's home-built aircraft carrier is indeed worth celebrating, because it marks a firm stride toward the indigenization of arms. The triumphant launch of the hull demonstrated India's progress in building giant surface carriers.”

After further praising India for its launch of a domestically built nuclear submarine so soon after the carrier, the author adds, “While helping boost the ruling Congress Party's election chances next year, they do mark India's achievements in localizing arms production.” Liu then goes on to argue that, “An aircraft carrier, in particular a defensive one like the INS Vikrant, will not cause drastic changes in Asia-Pacific strategic scenario.” Oddly, the headline the GT editors attached to the piece was “Indian carrier hints at regionally dangerous military buildup.” Liu did end the article by saying China should not forget the “existence of war even in a peaceful world.”
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Karan M » 24 Aug 2013 05:51

NRao, I kind of get what you are saying but I hope India ultimately stands on its own feet. The manner in which we have wrecked our economy while pushing for America to solve all our problems...that has just weakened the Indian state.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 24 Aug 2013 18:12

Karan M wrote:NRao, I kind of get what you are saying but I hope India ultimately stands on its own feet. The manner in which we have wrecked our economy while pushing for America to solve all our problems...that has just weakened the Indian state.


We are far apart.

So, as an example, it was no love for India that the US twisted Australia's hand to supply nuclear raw material to India. There were a certain set of events that "forced" (my term) the hands of both the US and Australia to act in that manner. (India has tried, for years, to convince Australia to sell and the US has been opposed to India on the nuclear issue.)

Same with Japan. Events forced them to gravitate closer to India. IF these events were to reverse, we should see a reversal of the relationship too.

In both these examples the events were not planned by any leader of any nation - events forced the situation.

There is a planned set (political typically) and then there are events that force situations.

What I am saying is that the US and India will come closer because of events, not because some US political leader starts to love India in any way. (This thing about world's largest democracy, etc, is pure BS. No one cares.) And state of economies, or political situations, etc do not influence such happening.

I would keep a very close watch on the Indo-US procurement for the services. I expect a dramatic change in the coming years. The chances are the best as we post. BUT, let us wait and see. There is another are that will need a close watch: latest techs. A domino or two need to fall for the flood gates to open. Again, as always, IMHO.

Anyways, let it slide.


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