China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 31 Jul 2011 11:43

china set to mine central Indian Ocean, Delhi worried

China, which has ratified the 1982 Law of the Sea Convention and is an ISA member, has been active in deep sea exploration since 2002 when it launched a programme that included developing an active diving submersible, ‘The Jiaolong’, designed for a maximum depth of 7,000 metres.

The Jiaolong is currently diving at a site between Hawaii and the North America mainland, where China was granted rights to explore for minerals in 2001.

Although Chinese officials say The Jiaolong is for civilian use only, foreign military experts say such a craft could be used to intercept or sever undersea communications cables, to retrieve foreign weaponry on the ocean floor, or to repair or rescue naval submarines

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Jul 2011 12:07

May be we can obtain similar mining license from International Seabed Authority around South China Sea ? Is that a possibility ?

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 31 Jul 2011 13:47

Austin wrote:
DavidD wrote:Another pic of the J-10B(prototype 1035, never shown before as we'd only seen pictures of 1031, 1032, and 1034) with the WS-10X engine:

http://i.imgur.com/XSZvw.jpg
How do you identify it WS-10X , just becuase the nozzle looks different or is it possible it would be some advanced variant of AL-31 engine with a different nozzle ?

Interesting those B model have redesigned intake with DSI and IRST . Does it have any additional HP ? Are they working on any PESA or AESA for the B model J-10 ?

Well, anything's possible, but the nozzle looks exactly like the nozzle of WS-10's showcased at airshows. Also, the nozzles are VERY different, and you can't just slap on a nozzle that different without modifying the engine significantly as well so we can conclude with pretty high probability that it's a WS-10 variant.

As for the power and the radar, not much is known about the specifics. The thrust is in the AL-31FN's class, obviously, but it could be a bit more or less. They're probably working on both PESA and AESA for the J-10B. One of its primary functions is actually to be a test bed for technologies to be used on the J-20, so they'll definitely slap on a smaller version of the intended J-20 AESA radar on a prototype. However, if it costs too much, then they may opt for PESA instead at least for the first batches.

There are quite a few more pics of the J-10B flying with the WS-10 now out there, so I think it's pretty certain that the news is true. The true significance of this item of news is that in the near future(like within a year or so), all fighter aircrafts made will be equipped with domestic engines.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Jul 2011 13:50

All fighters with domestic engines? Good news. Should be able to watch how well those engines perform.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 01 Aug 2011 00:05

blogger reporting that a Chinese Nuclear submarine is rumored to have met with an accident

http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/07/japa ... inese.html

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 01 Aug 2011 08:31

^^ nothing surprising . After all they a deeper than deepest ocean.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 01 Aug 2011 09:11

China to give squadron of J10-B fighters to Pakistan

When will we start giving Free Tejas MK-2 or old Mig-21Bis to Vietnam and Mongolia ??

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Aug 2011 09:32

karan_mc wrote:China to give squadron of J10-B fighters to Pakistan

When will we start giving Free Tejas MK-2 or old Mig-21Bis to Vietnam and Mongolia ??

I would be wary of this report.

One month ago the Pakistan claimed that China would take over Gwadar and supply 50 JF-17s to PAF. China scotched the Gwadar story and nothing further has been heard about the JF-17s. Googling for J-10 a suspiciously large number of reports of J-10B to Pakistan emanate from Pakistan.

If J10 is pretty much state of the art in China - wrt to stealth treated canopy and AESA - then giving it to Pakistan would very quickly reveal its capabilities to interested parties. When China reveals something - they do so only to show that parts that work and hide the areas that don't work so well. Note that Russia and the west are not so worried about doing that.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Aug 2011 09:35

DavidD wrote:Another pic of the J-10B(prototype 1035, never shown before as we'd only seen pictures of 1031, 1032, and 1034) with the WS-10X engine:

http://i.imgur.com/XSZvw.jpg

Any difference from this:
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j10b.asp

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 01 Aug 2011 13:39

shiv wrote:
karan_mc wrote:China to give squadron of J10-B fighters to Pakistan

When will we start giving Free Tejas MK-2 or old Mig-21Bis to Vietnam and Mongolia ??
I would be wary of this report.

One month ago the Pakistan claimed that China would take over Gwadar and supply 50 JF-17s to PAF. China scotched the Gwadar story and nothing further has been heard about the JF-17s. Googling for J-10 a suspiciously large number of reports of J-10B to Pakistan emanate from Pakistan.

If J10 is pretty much state of the art in China - wrt to stealth treated canopy and AESA - then giving it to Pakistan would very quickly reveal its capabilities to interested parties. When China reveals something - they do so only to show that parts that work and hide the areas that don't work so well. Note that Russia and the west are not so worried about doing that.

Yea that sounds like wishful thinking by Pakistanis, or maybe just a mistake in translation? No friggin way China will even give away 50 JF-17's for free, let alone J-10B's.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 01 Aug 2011 13:44

shiv wrote:
DavidD wrote:Another pic of the J-10B(prototype 1035, never shown before as we'd only seen pictures of 1031, 1032, and 1034) with the WS-10X engine:

http://i.imgur.com/XSZvw.jpg
Any difference from this:
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j10b.asp

Nothing really that you can see in that pic, but it's the 1035, which is equipped with the WS-10X engine. There's a video of it of it, showing some close up footage and also showing it taking off:

http://www.56.com/u73/v_NjIwODYxNzQ.html

I think the J-10 part starts a bit past the 9:30 minute mark. You can see the J-20 and the JF-17 taking off as well prior to that.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Aug 2011 13:45

Free or do they mean by barter instead of hard currency deal ?

Considering China investment in Pakistan serves them well in off balancing India , it wont be a surprise if some sort of liberal credit is offered to Pakistan for such purchases. After all the Saudis and Chinese has been bank rolling Pakistani for a long time now by indirect credit and US by direct dollar payment.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Aug 2011 16:10

OT for this thread but seems to be pertinent for the discussion:

China blames Pak terror camps for Xinjiang violence

AoA.

Looks like it is time for the Chinese to re-educate the Pakistanis.

Fun times.

Oh. I guess "there goes the free squadrons" too?

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 01 Aug 2011 16:36

DavidD wrote:Another pic of the J-10B(prototype 1035, never shown before as we'd only seen pictures of 1031, 1032, and 1034) with the WS-10X engine:

http://i.imgur.com/XSZvw.jpg

a Bump just before the Canards and Fixed refueling probe and for the first time nose looks to small to house any bigger AESA radar with 1000+ TR Module .J-10 is more and more turning out to be a ugly Bird to me after that DSI Intakes ,even JF-17 looks better

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 01 Aug 2011 16:44

How large should the nose look to be able house a bigger AESA?
plus in the business of armaments, it's not the looks that kill, otherwise every indian plane would have Aishwarya Rai painted on it.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 01 Aug 2011 18:18

@AdityaM , i Never said or indicated J-10 was not a good fighter due to its looks ,heck worst one was Boeing X-32 which was ugliest 5gen fighter but it didn't made it less capable , . you rant was uncalled for

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 02 Aug 2011 00:53

your frivolous comment reminded me of paki forum posts (of long ago) which mocked indian stuff just to feel good

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 02 Aug 2011 01:56

http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/articles/9630/vietnam-india-boost-naval-ties-to-counter-china

Even as Vietnam and China continue to conduct tit-for-tat naval maneuvers in the South China Sea, Hanoi has started making direct calls for foreign involvement in the two nations' maritime territorial dispute.

While many commentators saw this as a thinly veiled invitation to the United States, it could also be a precursor to India establishing a permanent presence in Vietnamese waters. India has apparently responded favorably to Vietnam's offer of permanent berthing rights in Na Thrang port. The move would not only add military heft to India's "Look East" policy, but is also emblematic of a larger Indian effort to counter China's activities in South Asia.

Since then the asymmetry in naval power between China and Vietnam has grown exponentially in the former's favor, while Hanoi has lost its Soviet-era security guarantees. Although Vietnam's decision to hold live naval drills in the wake of the cable-cutting incident in mid-June was seen as a show of resolve, it did little to temper ongoing Chinese surveys in disputed areas.

Clearly Vietnam requires a more credible naval power to intercede on its behalf to prevent the Chinese from upping the ante any further. That power could be India. In a move that had been in the offing for some time, India appears to have finally greenlighted long-term basing for it ships at Na Thrang, just south of China's new naval base at Sanya on Hainan Island.

The offer on Na Thrang was reiterated by the Vietnamese Chief of Naval Staff Vice Adm. Nguyen Van Hien on his recent visit to India. Nguyen visited two key Indian shipyards and conducted meetings on securing Indian help for augmenting the size and capabilities of the Vietnamese navy. While Indian public shipyards are actually at full capacity owing to domestic orders, newly established private shipyards will probably be awarded contracts to supply Vietnam with offshore patrol vessels and fast attack craft. In any case, India will continue to train Vietnamese naval personnel and help maintain any equipment that Vietnam sources from Russia. New Delhi has also agreed in principle to sell Vietnam the Brahmos supersonic anti-ship missile and possibly Prithvi surface-to-surface missiles.

Less visible, but no less critical, is the Indian IT industry's involvement in devising network-centric solutions for the Vietnamese armed forces. Criticized in the past for not putting enough heft in its Look East policy, the current tensions in the South China Sea have provided India an opportunity to display to Southeast Asia its willingness to help maintain the Asian balance of power.
A permanent presence in Na Thrang will essentially be the other bookend of India's efforts to counter a possible "third Chinese island chain" in the Indian and Pacific oceans.

Na Thrang would allow India to monitor the South China Sea side of the Straits of Malacca as well, effectively securing India's energy and commercial shipping originating in the Far East, while putting a greater swathe of China's sea lines of communication (SLOCs) within the Indian navy's reach.

The mantra in South Bloc at the moment seems to be that if the Indian Ocean is not India's ocean, then the South China Sea is not China's south sea.

Hope we continue to make Vietnam, our own backyard of China.

Vashishtha · Post by **Vashishtha** » 02 Aug 2011 02:17

New Delhi has also agreed in principle to sell Vietnam the Brahmos supersonic anti-ship missile and possibly Prithvi surface-to-surface missiles.

sourab_c · Post by **sourab_c** » 02 Aug 2011 03:00

Vashishtha wrote:
New Delhi has also agreed in principle to sell Vietnam the Brahmos supersonic anti-ship missile and possibly Prithvi surface-to-surface missiles.

There has been no official confirmation of the above news.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Aug 2011 03:22

Deccan Chronicle :: June 26, 2011 :: India set to drop anchor off China

India has taken the first tentative steps towards establishing a “sustainable maritime presence” in the South China Sea, not far from the Chinese mainland.

With Indo-Vietnamese naval cooperation set to strengthen in the days to come, Vietnam has allowed Indian naval warships to drop anchor at its Nha Trang port in southern Vietnam during naval goodwill visits, well-placed government sources have confirmed.

Sources said the Indian Navy was perhaps the only foreign Navy in recent times to have been given this privilege by the Vietna-mese at a port other than Halong Bay, near Hanoi.

“The move will give India the key to a sustainable presence in the South China Sea,” said a government source. This will enable India to play a bigger role in the strategic Southeast Asian region which overlooks key shipping lines.

India, too, is set to offer naval facilities for training and capacity-building to Vietnam. The Commander-in-Chief of the Vietnam People’s Navy, Vice-Admi-ral and deputy minister Nguyen Van Hien, is scheduled to visit New Delhi, Mumbai and Visakhapat-nam during his visit starting Monday to witness Indian naval capabilities.

“India could also offer its experience in ship-building to Vietnam, which currently has a small Navy,” said a government source.

China will no doubt be closely monitoring the Indo-Vietnamese naval co-operation.

Both India and Vietnam are wary of growing Chinese military capabilities. Both countries have been victims of Chinese military aggression in past.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Aug 2011 03:49

June 26, 2011 :: India eyes South China Sea pearl

But, predictably, Indian government sources caution that the Indo-Vietnamese defence relationship should not be seen to be aimed at China. “Vietnam is opening itself to the world. It is not looking to challenge China but merely seeking to enhance its own economic and defence capabilities in view of the ground realities,” pointed out a government source. Vietnam is part of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations which is seeking to engage China on a host of issues.

As defence analyst and National Maritime Foundation director Commodore C. Uday Bhaskar (Retd) puts it, “India would like to keep the issue of maintaining a maritime presence in the South China Sea as a potential option. Every major power would like to have the ability, if required, to maintain a credible maritime presence in two of the three navigable oceans of the world.” Pointing out that “in all of Asia Vietnam has the most distinctive strategic pedigree and profile”, Cdre Bhaskar added, “Clearly, Vietnam has a very deep anxiety about China which is manifested in the South China Sea disputes.” While cautioning that Indo-Vietnamese defence cooperation should not be seen as a tit-for-tat strategy in reaction to the Sino-Pakistan relationship, Cdre Bhaskar nevertheless avers that the Indo-Vietnamese naval cooperation will bestow a sense of “equipoise” in Southeast Asia.

sourab_c · Post by **sourab_c** » 02 Aug 2011 04:56

^ NRao, I meant the news about India supplying Brahmos to Vietnam. I would love to see an official or Vietnamese news source confirm that fact. I tried, but could not located one.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Aug 2011 05:11

Sorry, my fault. Not your.

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 02 Aug 2011 06:25

We need chips on the table when negotiating with rapidly rising powers like China, if we drop the chips, history wont forgive us.
Chinese were never worried about making us envy by building all weather-friendship with Pak, why the heck should we ? Lets do what is right for us. Give Prithvi, LCA, LCH, have naval presence, if possible give everything in credit (just like what we give for hopeless Bangladesh).

NRao wrote:June 26, 2011 :: India eyes South China Sea pearl

But, predictably, Indian government sources caution that the Indo-Vietnamese defence relationship should not be seen to be aimed at China. “Vietnam is opening itself to the world. It is not looking to challenge China but merely seeking to enhance its own economic and defence capabilities in view of the ground realities,” pointed out a government source. Vietnam is part of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations which is seeking to engage China on a host of issues.

As defence analyst and National Maritime Foundation director Commodore C. Uday Bhaskar (Retd) puts it, “India would like to keep the issue of maintaining a maritime presence in the South China Sea as a potential option. Every major power would like to have the ability, if required, to maintain a credible maritime presence in two of the three navigable oceans of the world.” Pointing out that “in all of Asia Vietnam has the most distinctive strategic pedigree and profile”, Cdre Bhaskar added, “Clearly, Vietnam has a very deep anxiety about China which is manifested in the South China Sea disputes.” While cautioning that Indo-Vietnamese defence cooperation should not be seen as a tit-for-tat strategy in reaction to the Sino-Pakistan relationship, Cdre Bhaskar nevertheless avers that the Indo-Vietnamese naval cooperation will bestow a sense of “equipoise” in Southeast Asia.

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 03 Aug 2011 11:27

Thomas Kolarek wrote:We need chips on the table when negotiating with rapidly rising powers like China, if we drop the chips, history wont forgive us.
Chinese were never worried about making us envy by building all weather-friendship with Pak, why the heck should we ? Lets do what is right for us. Give Prithvi, LCA, LCH, have naval presence, if possible give everything in credit (just like what we give for hopeless Bangladesh).

But, predictably, Indian government sources caution that the Indo-Vietnamese defence relationship should not be seen to be aimed at China. “Vietnam is opening itself to the world. It is not looking to challenge China but merely seeking to enhance its own economic and defence capabilities in view of the ground realities,” pointed out a government source. Vietnam is part of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations which is seeking to engage China on a host of issues.

As defence analyst and National Maritime Foundation director Commodore C. Uday Bhaskar (Retd) puts it, “India would like to keep the issue of maintaining a maritime presence in the South China Sea as a potential option. Every major power would like to have the ability, if required, to maintain a credible maritime presence in two of the three navigable oceans of the world.” Pointing out that “in all of Asia Vietnam has the most distinctive strategic pedigree and profile”, Cdre Bhaskar added, “Clearly, Vietnam has a very deep anxiety about China which is manifested in the South China Sea disputes.” While cautioning that Indo-Vietnamese defence cooperation should not be seen as a tit-for-tat strategy in reaction to the Sino-Pakistan relationship, Cdre Bhaskar nevertheless avers that the Indo-Vietnamese naval cooperation will bestow a sense of “equipoise” in Southeast Asia.

[/quote]

In addition to Prithvi and Brahmos, India should also sell (or better yet simply gift) Vietnam Agni missiles, sell them destroyers, frigates etc.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 03 Aug 2011 11:45

Quiet right. If they arm their all weather friends, why shouldn’t we do the same with Vietnam. Whether it is openly or quietly doesn’t matter.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 03 Aug 2011 12:56

rajrang wrote:
In addition to Prithvi and Brahmos, India should also sell (or better yet simply gift) Vietnam Agni missiles, sell them destroyers, frigates etc.

None of it really matters if Vietnam doesn't have nukes. Besides, India doesn't have the money to gift expensive items to other countries when its own military is running short on all sorts of vital equipment like fighters, trainers, and artillery pieces. Even China with its much larger economy doesn't have the money to gift Pakistan the things you listed.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Aug 2011 13:42

north korea has gone nuclear under chinese-pak blessings. its only fitting if vietnam in its supreme national interest go nuclear under another country's blessing. a few 800km IRBMs with vietnamese nuclear weapons is not expensive...$150mil would cover the tab for a regiment of missiles, launchers and training.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Aug 2011 13:46

^^^

India must train Vietnam to catch fish so that they can keep themselves alive for a long period of time. Rather then giving them fish. If you catch my drift.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Aug 2011 14:00

given the slappings that PRC has been giving everyone in the region over the south china sea resource rumble, it would be prudent for all of vietnam, philipines and taiwan to go nuclear and safeguard themselves.

south korea and japan would have to follow suit to save face. should have done that long time ago anyways if not for the be-the-obedient-munna thing. khan will be angry but can hardly do anything trade wise - it needs both the east asian markets, and soko/japan/taiwan to continue buying up US treasuries.

rudradeep · Post by **rudradeep** » 03 Aug 2011 14:11

Pratyush wrote:^^^

India must train Vietnam to catch fish so that they can keep themselves alive for a long period of time. Rather then giving them fish. If you catch my drift.

I beg to disagree here. Teaching the Vietnamese to fish here would mean helping Vietnam to keep its options open in the future. But by giving them a fish here and there, makes them dependent, which in the longer run would be a better option for us.

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 04 Aug 2011 05:23

DavidD wrote:
rajrang wrote:
In addition to Prithvi and Brahmos, India should also sell (or better yet simply gift) Vietnam Agni missiles, sell them destroyers, frigates etc.
None of it really matters if Vietnam doesn't have nukes. Besides, India doesn't have the money to gift expensive items to other countries when its own military is running short on all sorts of vital equipment like fighters, trainers, and artillery pieces. Even China with its much larger economy doesn't have the money to gift Pakistan the things you listed.

Even without nukes IRBMs will still enhance Vietnam's morale in an eyeball-to-eyeball confrontation with China.

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 04 Aug 2011 05:24

Singha wrote:north korea has gone nuclear under chinese-pak blessings. its only fitting if vietnam in its supreme national interest go nuclear under another country's blessing. a few 800km IRBMs with vietnamese nuclear weapons is not expensive...$150mil would cover the tab for a regiment of missiles, launchers and training.

A 2500 km IRBM will send a louder message though more expensive.

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 04 Aug 2011 05:31

Singha wrote:given the slappings that PRC has been giving everyone in the region over the south china sea resource rumble, it would be prudent for all of vietnam, philipines and taiwan to go nuclear and safeguard themselves.

south korea and japan would have to follow suit to save face. should have done that long time ago anyways if not for the be-the-obedient-munna thing. khan will be angry but can hardly do anything trade wise - it needs both the east asian markets, and soko/japan/taiwan to continue buying up US treasuries.

Agree! Will it be a step in the right direction for India to generously transfer peaceful nuclear technology to Vietnam, Philipines, Taiwan? For example, allow large numbers of students from those countries to come to India for education in nuclear technology, training in nuclear establishments, possibly transfer technology so they can build 200 MW nuclear power plants, ..... - all within the boundaries of international laws and treaties that India has signed.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 04 Aug 2011 06:00

Hear, hear .................... China is .............:

South China Sea Dispute: China Warns Manila It Won't Sit Idle

Front page editorial ..............................

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Aug 2011 07:37

NRao wrote:Hear, hear .................... China is .............:

South China Sea Dispute: China Warns Manila It Won't Sit Idle

Front page editorial ..............................

China does not have the guts to use such tough language against their tarrel and deepel fliend, Pakhanastan.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Aug 2011 07:49

It looks like all their neighbors have lost their middle fingers.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 04 Aug 2011 11:39

NRao wrote:Hear, hear .................... China is .............:

South China Sea Dispute: China Warns Manila It Won't Sit Idle

Front page editorial ..............................

So basically the Filipinos are going back on a multilateral agreement that was just reached late last month, but a story is written about China's verbal response to the Philippines' concrete violations? I wonder what the title of the article would've read if it was China constructing buildings on disputed islands mere weeks after ASEAN and China reached an agreement to calm things down. Perhaps something like "South China Sea Heats Up Again as China Continues Its Aggressive Behavior"? One thing China has gotten it right since the Mao days is to not give a crap about international opinion, only pragmatic calculations of risks and rewards. Surely they don't always get it right, but they'll do what they believe needs to be done, western media be damned.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Aug 2011 14:17

DavidD wrote:one thing China has gotten it right since the Mao days is to not give a crap about international opinion, only pragmatic calculations of risks and rewards. Surely they don't always get it right, but they'll do what they believe needs to be done, western media be damned.

I don't think its that simple. I believe the Chinese do care a great deal about what the West and others say - but they are looking for admiration and respect.