China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

[dhirkum]

a indian-american engineer is apparently on a 40 yr prison stay for passing some stealth tech to PRC - anyone know this case?

another PIO (living in hawaii) was sentenced for passing on tech that masks the exhaust signature of cruise missiles a couple of years back.

thats why we don't see exhaust or flame coming out of the engine when its taxiing or flying

[Samay]

Dumb a$$ didnt realize that the technology he provided China would come to harm his own mother land?
Avram.

That dumbass should have helped develop something for his own motherland, than helping enemies(USA was at that time) .
He always worked for money , China or US or any other .

[kit]

Dumb a$$ didnt realize that the technology he provided China would come to harm his own mother land?
Avram.

That dumbass should have helped develop something for his own motherland, than helping enemies(USA was at that time) .
He always worked for money , China or US or any other .

Wonder what would have happened if he was chinese and was 'helping' the indians !

[svinayak]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comm ... China.html

Appeasement is the proper policy towards Confucian China
We all learned at school how the status quo powers mismanaged the spectacular rise of Germany before World War I, a strategic revolution so like the rise of China today.

Is China now where Germany was in 1900? Possibly. There are certainly hints of menace from some quarters in Beijing. Defence minister Liang Guanglie said over New Year that China’s armed forces are “pushing forward preparations for military conflict in every strategic direction”.
Professor Huang Jing from Singapore’s Lee Kwan Yew School and a former adviser to China’s Army, said Beijing is losing its grip on the colonels.
“The young officers are taking control of strategy and it is like young officers in Japan in the 1930s. This is very dangerous. They are on a collision course with a US-dominated system,” he said.
Yet nothing is foreordained. Which is why it was so unsettling to learn that most of the leadership of the US Congress declined to attend the state banquet at the White House for Chinese President Hu Jintao, including the Speaker of House.

[Kukreja]

http://gizmodo.com/5745307/did-china-tr ... ce-footage
Did China try to pass of Top Gun as airforce footage?

A few days ago, China Central Television showed footage of what they claimed was an air force training exercise conducted on January 23. From the looks of things, they were actually just playing clips from Top Gun.

The clips in question were reportedly aired during the News Broadcast program on China Central Television, the major state television broadcast company. They supposedly showed a J-10 fighter firing a missile at another aircraft during a practice exercise.

But an internet commenter quickly pointed out that the aircraft the J-10 was shown shooting down was an F-5, an American aircraft, and the very one Tom Cruise guns down in a scene from Top Gun. Comparing frames from the CCTV broadcast (left) and Top Gun (right), well, they're lookin' pretty much identical.

[PratikDas]

^^^ Great find!

[anishns]

^^^

One of the many comments on that article:

[kmc_chacko]

same report from other source

Video: CCTV Tries to Pass Off ‘Top Gun’ Clip as Military Drill?

Beijing has lately stepped up its campaign against the country’s “fake news” scourge, with the General Administration of Press and Publications putting pressure on news organizations to dismiss journalists suspected of doctoring their stories. Ironically, the latest example of alleged news fakery comes from China’s own state broadcaster, CCTV.

In a development that could further inflame Hollywood’s frustrations with unauthorized reproduction of its intellectual property in China, Chinese netizens are accusing CCTV of repurposing footage from the movie “Top Gun” for use in a news story about an air force training exercise.

As noted yesterday by the blog Ministry of Tofu, the alleged IPR violation, spotted by Internet user “Liu Yi,” took place during a November 23rd evening news broadcast. CCTV has removed the clip in question from its website, but a copy of the broadcast posted on Chinese video sites does reveal some striking similarities:

CCTV typically posts the full evening news broadcast online, along with individual clips of each story, but a check today of the CCTV website for January 23 revealed only the individual clips. The full broadcast is missing and there is no link to the air force training story.

This wouldn’t be the first time Chinese media have been caught appropriating fictional material from the U.S. for use in news. In 2002, the popular Beijing Evening News tabloid translated and published as genuine a satirical news article by The Onion about U.S. Congress threatening to leave Washington D.C. unless the city built them a new building with a retractable roof. Five years later, the state-run Xinhua news agency infamously used an x-ray image of Homer Simpson’s head to illustrate a story about the discovery of a genetic link to multiple sclerosis.

Contacted by China Real Time, a media relations representative in CCTV’s foreign affairs office, Yin Fan, said the broadcaster had no immediate comment on the accusations.

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2011 ... =chinablog

[VinodTK]

Cross posting from PRC thread

India And The Chinese Threat

It is time India conveys to the Chinese that it will be forced to review its One China policy if the Chinese pinpricks on Jammu and Kashmir continue. China must be made to understand the Indian sensitivities on Kashmir and that Kashmir is to India what Tibet is to China.

India did not sing the One China hymn in the joint communiqué that was signed at the conclusion of Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao’s recent visit to New Delhi. That may be pragmatic but not bold enough. India has to convey the ‘enough is enough’ message to the Chinese in concrete terms, in its back-channel as well as official contacts. India has to tell the Chinese that if they continue to give stapled visas to the people from the Indian states of Jammu and Kashmir and Arunachal Pradesh (no matter if in the case of the latter it is understood to be a ‘concession’ from the Chinese side) then India will retaliate in kind.

[VinodTK]

China shows off footage of its first aircraft carrier

People's Daily, the official organ of the ruling Communist Party of China, carried a brief video showing the ship undergoing sea trials.

The video displayed in its interactive section, Peoples Forum also showed an aircraft landing on it. China has taken a major step towards commissioning its first aircraft carrier by largely completing the restoration of a derelict ship purchased from Ukraine, a brief report in the people's forum of the daily website said.
:
:
China reportedly bought Russian SU-33 carrier-based fighters and has modified domestic J-11 jets for carrier landings and takeoffs.

[shiv]

China shows off footage of its first aircraft carrier

People's Daily, the official organ of the ruling Communist Party of China, carried a brief video showing the ship undergoing sea trials.

The video displayed in its interactive section, Peoples Forum also showed an aircraft landing on it. China has taken a major step towards commissioning its first aircraft carrier by largely completing the restoration of a derelict ship purchased from Ukraine, a brief report in the people's forum of the daily website said.
:
:
China reportedly bought Russian SU-33 carrier-based fighters and has modified domestic J-11 jets for carrier landings and takeoffs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyALgimCUMk


As an aside I find it interesting that Chinese media (TV) are using the sort of background music (brass band, tuba, horns etc) of the sort used in old war movies to depict huge armies preparing for war. Interesting pisko here. They do not find pinigenous Chinese music up to the mark for this.

In related news
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... osti01.htm

Russian-Chinese Su-33 fighter deal collapses - paper
10/03/2009 13:58 MOSCOW, March 10 (RIA Novosti) - Russia has refused to sell its Su-33 carrier-based fighters to China over fears that Beijing could produce cheaper export versions of the aircraft, a Russian daily said on Tuesday.

The Moskovsky Komsomolets newspaper said that China and Russia had been in negotiations on the sale of 50 of the Su-33 Flanker-D fighters, to be used on future Chinese aircraft carriers, since 2006, but that the talks collapsed recently over China's request for an initial delivery of two aircraft for a "trial."

Russian Defense Ministry sources confirmed that the refusal was due to findings that China had produced its own copycat version of the Su-27SK fighter jet in violation of intellectual property agreements.

In 1995, China secured a $2.5-billion production license from Russia to build 200 Su-27SKs, dubbed J-11A, at the Shenyang Aircraft Corp.

The deal required the aircraft to be outfitted with Russian avionics, radars and engines. Russia cancelled the arrangement in 2006 after it discovered that China was developing an indigenous version, J-11B, with Chinese avionics and systems. The decision came after China had already produced 95 aircraft.

This time, Russia refused the Chinese offer even after Beijing had offered to buy 14 Su-33 aircraft, saying that at least 24 jets should be sold to recoup production costs.

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article20043.html

China Creates Pirate Copy of Russia’s Su-33 Fighter Jet

[chola]

http://gizmodo.com/5745307/did-china-tr ... ce-footage
Did China try to pass of Top Gun as airforce footage?

I used this devastating effect in a forum last night. I managed to derail a J-20 aviation discussion which has fallen into a boring acceptance that the thing is real into a nice maelstrom of accusations that the thing is fake onlee (like the CCTV clip) and had the chini drones yelling "racism" at goras now questioning the whole affair. lol

I haven't had such fun since the J-10 photoshops years ago.

[DavidD]

China shows off footage of its first aircraft carrier

The video displayed in its interactive section, Peoples Forum also showed an aircraft landing on it. China has taken a major step towards commissioning its first aircraft carrier by largely completing the restoration of a derelict ship purchased from Ukraine, a brief report in the people's forum of the daily website said.
:
:
China reportedly bought Russian SU-33 carrier-based fighters and has modified domestic J-11 jets for carrier landings and takeoffs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyALgimCUMk


As an aside I find it interesting that Chinese media (TV) are using the sort of background music (brass band, tuba, horns etc) of the sort used in old war movies to depict huge armies preparing for war. Interesting pisko here. They do not find pinigenous Chinese music up to the mark for this.

In related news
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... osti01.htm

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article20043.html

Lol what? It's not undergoing sea trials, the refitting is still ongoing. That video is shot by some guy on a boat passing by, not the state media. The first part of the video is of the Varyag from a few months ago, the last part shows the Kutznetsov and a plane from it.

[joygoswami]

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia- ... 40318.html

Sorry if its OT seniors, but I just could not resist this news. It seems the word Freedom and Anti-Government has no place in "Pepal" Liberation of China, although they are just plain english language words. So, when the words of recent protests and demonstrations in Egypt and Tunisia reached Chinese bloggers, they, the Government decided to block any keywords related to it. Wonder what would have happened to Ms.A.Roy had she been in China I just wish my friend is alright in upper city of Suez in Egypt

[Cain Marko]

Impressive take off - J10 (clean of course, but still): via - "Pinko" on Keypubs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3ev4vv_ ... ture=feedu

This was shown to a Serbian contingent, apparently the Serbs are interested.

Nothing perhaps compared to this - TIffy with one belly tank

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACuAIuNI ... re=related


CM.

[Mort Walker]

The Chinese fake a J10 engagement with footage from the film "Top Gun":

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thecutlin ... to-top-gun

[Kanson]

Impressive take off - J10 (clean of course, but still): via - "Pinko" on Keypubs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3ev4vv_ ... ture=feedu

This was shown to a Serbian contingent, apparently the Serbs are interested.

I think credit should go to DavidD who earlier(few pages back) posted the same video here.

[Don]

http://www.china-defense-mashup.com/chi ... craft.html

China successfully tests its first orbital unmanned spacecraft

Posted on 17 January 2011 by admin Print This Post

2011-01-17 (China Military News cited from ruvr.ru) -- China has successfully tested its first orbital unmanned spacecraft capable of staying in the outer space for at least 270 days and dealing with various defense tasks, including the destruction of communication satellites.

This Chinese robotic space plane will most certainly challenge US air force’s X-37B unmanned spacecraft that performed its first mission last year. This elusive spacecraft is capable of striking any target on Earth at any time and cannot be tracked down using the existing ABM means.

[shiv]

By sheer coincidence - I received this morning an email response to a mailing list news item about China's satellite destruction capability. Clearly the author of the email - whom some of you will know was not impressed. The man actually has some aerospace credentials. Here is a quote:

India demonstrated the capability in the 1960s when the first Sounding
Rockets went up. Let me explain:

A satellite destroying "missile" is the equivalent of just sticking a 2x4 in
front of a running kid. You just need a rocket that goes straight up, a few
hundred miles. Sounding rockets like the ones launched from Thumba routinely
reach 600 km above Earth and come back down.

This is a far cry from going into orbit (less than 10% of the energy needed
to go into orbit) so you don't need a large rocket. Mobile launchers can do
it.

Of course you have to time it properly etc. but that is not a big deal. If
it doesn't work on the first attempt you can just wait until the satellite
comes around the next time, 90 minutes to a day later.

You just have to be irresponsible and obnoxious enough to do something like
this that scatters debris all over the orbital paths of everyone else. What
the Chinese did is like shattering a crate of beer bottles on a pristine
beach where people walk barefoot. Nothing technically great about it, and I
certainly hope India does not feel compelled to emulate this. On the other
hand, it's exactly the sort of thing Pakistan might do.

Please send my message out to #### to correct the perception
created by sending the one below. Thank you.

http://www.isro.org/pressrelease/script ... Jan15_2010

Yesterday (January 14, 2010), two Rohini sounding rockets of the type RH 300 Mk II were launched at 12:20 pm and 1:05 pm respectively. This was followed by two RH 200 launches at 1:07 pm and 3 pm. Following the same pattern, another four launches were carried out today. Later, one more sounding rocket of RH 300 Mk II type was launched at 4 pm today. Two larger Rohini rockets of the series RH 560 MK II were also launched from SDSC, one each yesterday and today, which had a peak altitude of 548 km.

11 SDRE launches in 2 days reaching 548 km.

[shiv]

http://www.china-defense-mashup.com/chi ... craft.html

China successfully tests its first orbital unmanned spacecraft

What is the connection between the image and the news?

[ranjithnath]

the thing slung under the belly!?

[NRao]

I think I have seen that, same, picture being associated with some other event. ?????? May be not.

[Kanson]

JAPAN RESPONDS TO CHINA’S THREATENING RISE
Guest Column: By Rajeev Sharma

For quite some time, Japan has been watching with trepidation China’s aggressive military posturing in South and East China Seas and the Western Pacific. The Chinese behaviour has become all the greater cause of concern for the Japanese as China has peppered its military moves with a hard-nosed diplomacy. The Japanese concern became clear when Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh paid a bilateral visit to Japan late last year and Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan asked him how to deal with China. Manmohan Singh told him: keep China engaged through diplomacy while simultaneously bolstering your economy and defence. {Is it }

The inevitable happened and the Japanese government announced on December 17, 2010 its National Defence Programme Guidelines in response to China’s increased defence spending. Unsurprisingly, Japan’s new guidelines refer to Chinese pro-active naval activities as a "matter of concern for the region and the international community," and aim to fortifying the defences of the Nansei Islands--Okinawa Prefecture and Kagoshima Prefecture, which have witnessed unusual Chinese military activities in 2010. The development marks a paradigm shift in Japan’s defence policy as now Japan will be deploying F-15 fighter jets to a SDF base in Okinawa Prefecture and permanently stationing Ground Self-Defense Force troops to the hitherto defenceless southernmost island, something that no Japanese government dared to do for fear of arousing China’s wrath.

China is to blame itself for triggering an expensive arms race in the region by its dangerous brinkmanship that has woken up a much more technologically superior power like Japan. China is following in the footsteps of Soviet Union which diverted huge parts of its GDP to imaginary defence needs at the cost of raising the Gross Happiness Product of its citizens. With its needlessly aggressive diplomacy, China has forced Japan to reverse its 65-year-old policy of self-defence and embark on a new concept of "dynamic defence capabilities" as formulated by the new National Defence Programme Guidelines. It is now only a matter of time when Japan will take three more steps that will bug China no end: (i) formation of a National Security Council to formulate comprehensive security policies; (ii) lifting its self-imposed ban on arms exports and participation in international joint weaponry production; and (iii) increasing its defence cooperation with like-minded China-wary regional powers and seek newer allies other than the US.

Since 1945, Japan had been maintaining only minimum defence capabilities. Now, under the new guidelines Japan will be "increasing the activity" of its defence hardware and "clearly demonstrating" its advanced capabilities. The new guidelines lay out three security objectives: (i) prevention of external threats from reaching Japanese shores by Japan’s "own efforts"; (ii) neutralization of external threats by improving international security architecture with cooperation from allies; and (iii) securing global peace and stability by "multi-layered security cooperation with the international community" in a consolidated manner.

Japan Vs China Today = France Vs Germany Before World War II?

Winston Churchill foresaw the decline of French military power and the rapid strides made by Hitler’s Germany way back in 1935 when he had not yet become the Prime Minister of Britain. Churchill confided in a French writer, Andre Maurois that the French Air Force, which used to be the best in the world, had slipped to 4th or 5th spot and the German Air Force was fast emerging as the world’s best air force. Churchill told Maurois that this posed a threat to France, something that eventually happened five years later. Germany invaded France and occupied over sixty per cent of the French territory for four years until 1944.

Substitute France for Japan and China for Germany and you get the picture of 2010. Maurois has recorded Churchill’s warning in his book "Tragedy in France" that was first published in the United States in 1940. Significantly, the book’s Japanese edition came out in 2005 when China was not seen as posing a threat to Japan. The comparison of France and Germany just before the 2nd World War with Japan and China in 2010 does not end here. Today Japan too has had a series of weak and short-lived governments just as France did before World War II.

For almost a quarter century, China has consistently been raising its military expenditure by 10 percent or so every year. China is now planning to build its own aircraft carrier and has been upgrading its fighter planes and submarines like the one possessed. China has been beefing up its military muscle with not just an eye on Japan, but the United States as well. A demonstration of this came in the third week of December 2010 when China successfully tested and deployed the world’s first weapon system that can target a moving carrier strike group from land-based, long-range mobile launchers. This is aimed at American as well as Japanese navies.

The Chinese have attracted a lot of negative attention from the international community ever since a Chinese trawler collided with two Japan Coast Guard vessels near the Senkaku Islands in the East China Sea in September 2010. The Chinese resorted to highly aggressive diplomacy when the Japanese impounded the Chinese trawler and arrested the crew members. Japan failed to show pluck and meekly surrendered to the Chinese threats of "dire consequences" if the crew and the trawler were not released forthwith. Even after their release, China continued to up its ante and demanded an apology. This time Japan did not oblige. This prompted China to take its gunboat diplomacy to a higher level. A month after the Senkaku Islands episode, the Chinese military aircraft have routinely been harassing the Japanese Self-Defence Forces’ aircraft over the East China Sea.

The new Chinese behavior has naturally raised tensions in the region as the Japanese Air Self Defence Force has ordered its fighter aircraft to scramble every time the Chinese have resorted to provocative air activities. As of December 22, 2010, the Japanese Air SDF has launched scrambles 44 times, the highest figure in the past five years. An indication of what has triggered the change in China’s policy came from a report in a Chinese military organ that said that China does not "consider its EEZ (Economic Exclusive Zone) to be part of international waters." This clearly means that China is set to flex its military muscle to keep foreign military personnel (read Japan and the US) out of Chinese EEZ.

{Few pages back, I asked this question. If China becomes Germany, who could be Britain, France, Czechoslovakia, Austria, Poland etc. Now i got the answer that France is Japan. In my view, Czech will be Taiwan and Austria will be Pakistan. If Paksitan is Austira, then India will be ?}

WHAT NEXT?

It is clear that China's self-avowed "peaceful rise" has hardly been "peaceful" – and that too so early in its journey towards superpower status. Japan has already starting reaching out to major powers in the region and has embarked upon a substantive and sustained up gradation of its security and defence ties with such countries as India, Australia, South Korea and Vietnam.

India and Australia will be the key for Japan in this context. Japan needs to once again take the lead and revive the Quadrilateral Initiative (involving Japan, the US, Australia and India) –a strategic baby that was conceived in 2007 and aborted in early 2008. Australia had then acted as the party spoiler. The then Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd had rocked the boat of the Quad Initiative, apparently at the behest of China.

China has started realizing that its assertive diplomacy and aggressive military maneuverings have set the cat among the pigeons and is keen to make amends. As a result, it sent Premier Wen Jiabao to India (December 15-17, 2010) even after India’s Oslo rebuff to China on December 10 when the Indian envoy in Norway did attend the Nobel Peace Prize award-giving ceremony despite China’s request to India to skip the function. China has declared its plans to revive military-to-military relations with the US after a year-long suspension of the ties.

Japan's Kyodo news agency reported on February 4, 2011 that China and Japan are considering holding a vice ministerial-level meeting later this month to discuss ways of avoiding a repeat of the Senkaku Islands incident last September . The Kyodo report said: 'Along with maritime safety measures, especially around the Senkaku Islands in the East China Sea, the two sides are likely to discuss Japan's new defense policy outline, stalled bilateral talks concerning a treaty on joint gas field drilling in the East China Sea, and tensions on the Korean Peninsula, according to the sources.' The talks may well be a dialogue of the deaf as both sides claim full ownership of Senkaku Island (called Diaoyu Islands by China), but the important thing is that China has nudged Japan to the negotiating table and Japan has agreed.

However, this is too little, too late. China needs to show to the world that it is a responsible, restrained and mature global power and not a fire-spewing dragon.

[shiv]

cross post

What is this ?

http://chinamilitary.org/?p=793

China Z-10

The Z-10 attack helicopter is under development in China. It’s development began in the mid-1990s. Prototype of the Z-10 maid it’s maiden flight in 2003. It is expected to enter service with Chinese army in 2008 – 2009. It will be the first dedicated modern Chinese attack helicopter. It has been designed with extensive technical assistance from Eurocopter and Augusta. Primary mission of the Z-10 is ant-armor and battlefield interdiction. It also has some limited air-to-air combat capabilities.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... es-op.html

Hong Kong's second largest newspaper, the Sing Tao Daily, reported earlier this week that US pressure forced the Chinese to change the aircraft's engine. Prototype models of the Z-10 in 2007 showed a Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6 engine, which somehow got diverted to a Chinese military program. The operational version of the aircraft appears to be powered by the same engine in the Z-9, which is a copy of the Eurocopter AS 365N1 Dauphin.

[D Roy]

the thing slung under the belly!?

That's the Shenlong spaceplane demonstrator ...

Go back a few pages and you will find a nice link posted by me that will give you some details.

[asprinzl]

France of pre-WW2 can hardly be equated with Japan of today. French are the first modern nation of the world. Modernization in thoughts and modernization in arts and culture (despite their destractors) helped in heralding the most powerful nation in the world militarily which gave Napoleone the manpower and industrial base to build the Grande Armee that menaced Europe till 1814.
However, like all things with nature nothing invites failure like success. When you become modern and successful you also liberate your womenfolks from bondage of ancient ropes and strings. And modern women want to have less children. And the French have been seeing slow but gradual population decline since the end of Napoleone Bonaparte era.

Their first sign of trouble began when Bismark launched the Franco-Prussian war. The Prussians humiliated the French in Sedan and marched into Paris. That did not end troubles for France. They were still wealthy, the military still relatively formidable and went all over the world in colonizing spree but back home their population was still in decline while the German population was increasing in parallel to their rapid industrial expansion which was partly helped along by the presence of fellow German monarch in England (both Victoria and her husband were Germans). And among certain French circles there were talks of invading Germany and put an end to any potential threats in the future before their population shrinks to a dangerous level.

They thought they could finish off the Germans and waited for the first opportunity to exploit. And when Archduke Ferdinand's assasination in Sarajevo that resulted in a very destabilizing situation in Central Europe they attacked Germany right after Austro-Hungarian guns started pounding Serbian positions-sparking off a general war. But the army they had was not as large as Germany's because by then German population had surpassed far a head of the French population. A hundred years after Waterloo, a war that the French helped spark would end in a total disaster for them.

When Rommel's forces came marching in 1940, the French population decline has been going on for almost 120 years. Japan's population is also greying but they are not where the French were in 1935. Today Japan is still more powerful and wealthier than China minus the nukes.

[VinodTK]

'Chinese incursion in Gilgit-Baltistan alarming'

Harrison in an article in The New York Times had said last year that there were a minimum of 7,000 Peoples Liberation Army (PLA) personnel stationed in the Khunjerab Pass on border of Gilgit-Baltistan to protect the Karakoram Highway construction crews.

[NRao]

Not quite for this thread, but close enough under the circumstances:

Tokyo Governor urges Japan to develop nuclear weapons for self defence

[Yagnasri]

May be it is only matter of time. I wonder how China will react when it happens.

[Baldev]

cross post

What is this ?

chinese are locally producing licensed manufacturing of MI 17 but after few years they will have there own Z-17

[D Roy]

well they already have their own super frelon...

[abhik]

...
{Few pages back, I asked this question. If China becomes Germany, who could be Britain, France, Czechoslovakia, Austria, Poland etc. Now i got the answer that France is Japan. In my view, Czech will be Taiwan and Austria will be Pakistan. If Paksitan is Austira, then India will be ?}..

asprinzl, population was only a part of the story. French industrial capacity/economy was in shambles, for example (if my memory serves me right) German steel production was ten times that of France. Eerily thats exactly the position that we are in vis a vie China. If your looking for WW2 analogs then India is more like France rather than Japan, because of historically comparable size and actually sharing a land border.

[Arya Sumantra]

...
{Few pages back, I asked this question. If China becomes Germany, who could be Britain, France, Czechoslovakia, Austria, Poland etc. Now i got the answer that France is Japan. In my view, Czech will be Taiwan and Austria will be Pakistan. If Paksitan is Austira, then India will be ?}..

It(Pakistan) will be more like Italy perhaps. Don't read too much into sharing the borders bit in the analogy, let's just look at capability similarities

[wen]

Looking at the J-20 design, it is clearly derived from the MiG-1.44 MFI (which flew in 2001) but with reshaping of the front to be more of a F-22/35 design (nose, cockpit, inlets) as well as other VLO enhancements.

MiG-1.44 MFI


Maybe the Chinese bought the MiG-1.44 design and engineers from the cash-strapped MiG after the program was cancelled ...
J-20

Actually, MiG-1.44 MFI is a cheap rip-off of China Chengdu's J-9VI-2 project developed in 1960s-1970:

You know, a figure worth thousands words, you can always chose to believe your own eyes.





http://news.qq.com/a/20080807/001192.htm

J-20:



Comparing a J-20 to a MIG-1.44 is like comparing a F-4 to a F-22, they are simply not the same generation, MIG-1.44 is more comparable to Chengdu 1970's project J-9VI-2.

[wen]

Yes. In this case, it is like the MiG-1.44 was the TD (technology demonstrator) and the J-20 is the PV (prototype). This probably has trimmed quite a few years in China's effort when compared to having to go with a completely new design (and other hardware/software/know-hows) from scratch. Nothing wrong with that approach.

For FC-1, China purchased the MiG-33 design and test data to quickly develop the plane. Given this history, it is also highly likely the Chinese purchased the MiG-1.44 design, test data, etc. to expedite its development of the J-20. However, the Chinese did make extensive VLO related changes to the original MiG design. So in that sense, it is a new aircraft.

Actually PAF-FA looks more like a poor man's F-15 than J-20 has anything to do with the outdated MiG-1.44, as I posted, MiG-1.44 looks way more like a cheap copy of China 1970's J-9VI-2 concept:


And nobody can deny the flankerism of PAK-FA either:



Thats among of one of the many reasons that I am not being very optimistic about whether PAK-FA should be classified as a true 5th generation fighter, it looks too much like the hybrid copy of F-15 and Su-27, both are outdated last generation fighters.

A true 5th generation fighter should looks like this, IMVHO:


instead of this:


We can always chose to believe our own eyes instead of remaining in denial mode.

To be honest, how could Chinese "steal" any Russian 5th generation techs when the latter obvious has none of them as proved by Russian's latest rather disappointing and unsuccessful "5th generation" attempt called PAK-FA?

Sorry for posting so many pics, but I always believe one picture sometimes worths thousands words and can actually save alot of our time and effects in trying to explain the obvious to others.

[shiv]

A true 5th generation fighter should looks like this, IMVHO:

This is 100% correct as long as you define 5th gen by looks and not by technologies. Since 90% of people on internet fora define by looks alone - 5th gen is more like a fashion show and the looks count more than anything else. So no dispute with what you said.

[wen]

A true 5th generation fighter should looks like this, IMVHO:

This is 100% correct as long as you define 5th gen by looks and not by technologies. Since 90% of people on internet fora define by looks alone - 5th gen is more like a fashion show and the looks count more than anything else. So no dispute with what you said.

The problem is one primary feature of 5th generation fighter is being "stealth", and research shows that stealth is achieved 70% by the aircraft's aerodynamic layouts.

So yes, 5th generation can be judged by looks, thats why neither flankerism nor F-15ish could be count as 5th generation fighter just by their looks, no matter how much coating it has.

[shiv]

The problem is one primary feature of 5th generation fighter is being "stealth", and research shows that stealth is achieved 70% by the aircraft's aerodynamic layouts.

We could argue about this forever and ask if a huge aircraft with 2 mainwings , 2 tailplanes, two canards, which are themselves unstealthy and two ventral fins - a total of 8 large flat surfaces is "stealthy". Lets leave out the crap. If you have 5 wives and 25 children and I have no wife or girlfriend there is no use my pulling out my organ, waving it about and saying "Mine is better". Better for what? Better for waving maybe. The J-20 is an good effort by China and will surely lead to good tech for people who are honest with themselves.

[sourab_c]

The problem is one primary feature of 5th generation fighter is being "stealth", and research shows that stealth is achieved 70% by the aircraft's aerodynamic layouts.

So yes, 5th generation can be judged by looks, thats why neither flankerism nor F-15ish could be count as 5th generation fighter just by their looks, no matter how much coating it has.

Are you able to provide a source for that information? Although it is true that aerodynamics play a role in the design of any airplane, the so called "flankerism" would not necessarily put PAK-FA at a disadvantage. Have you considered that the flanker design may inherently be suitable for development of a 5th gen plane? Is it wise to spend resources on developing a whole new design if your requirements are met by an existing one?

Also, if you look at F-117 Nighthawk's development, you will realize that stealth had an inverse relationship with the aerodynamics of the plane , i.e. stealth directly compromised aerodynamics of the aircraft.

[wen]

The problem is one primary feature of 5th generation fighter is being "stealth", and research shows that stealth is achieved 70% by the aircraft's aerodynamic layouts.

We could argue about this forever and ask if a huge aircraft with 2 mainwings , 2 tailplanes, two canards, which are themselves unstealthy and two ventral fins - a total of 8 large flat surfaces is "stealthy". Lets leave out the crap. If you have 5 wives and 25 children and I have no wife or girlfriend there is no use my pulling out my organ, waving it about and saying "Mine is better". Better for what? Better for waving maybe. The J-20 is an good effort by China and will surely lead to good tech for people who are honest with themselves.

Actually there are papers on this issue.

For instance, a paper written by scholars from a top graduate school in aero-science/engineering in China, quantitiviely estimated an average convential designed canards (e.g. without the consideration of aligment with main wings, etc), just with an average RAM coating developed China, during cruise phase (not dog-fight, which means the canards will move within +/- 20 degrees), will only introudce a RCS at the magntiude of ~0.001 m^2.

I seriously doubt either F-22 or PAK-FA can achieve this level of RCS, since the research in China shows that F-22's caret intakes itself will introduce a frontal RCS of near 0.05 m^2 level, let along PAK-FA's su-27ish intakes, which introduces a frontal RCS of near 0.5-1 m^2 alone.

Thats why the Chinese estiamted the raw F-22's frontal RCS (with RAM coating but without active "stealth" a.k.a electriconc countermeasures) will be actually around 0.1 m^2.

You can find a copy of this paper here, althrough unfornatuely it is written in Chinese:

http://club.china.com/data/thread/1013/ ... 0/8_1.html