J&K News and Discussion-2011

[ramana]

Rudradev,

OA, PC and Bablu are not doing anything like that. They are not assuming security of those quiet areas.
They still want to be able to call the IA when things fail and they will. Meantime they look tall to the sepratists and terrorists.

Its heads I win and tails you lose.

BTW, there are no more chances of allowing Kashmir to slide into a mess. Its a must hold at this time of global turmoil. Any disturbance leads others to meddle. Read the geopolitical summary given by IA.

Should have been done by MEA who are in dress comeptetion.

--

ekalavya, OA wants to appear as a rebel while he enjoys the IA protection.

[eklavya]

ekalavya, OA wants to appear as a rebel while he enjoys the IA protection.

Fully agree. My post was in jest!

OA is trying to improve his image and standing among the anti-India mob and has turned the AFSPA into an "ego" issue, which is a poor substitute for governing the state.

If he wants to act unilaterally, the Governor should ignore his advice.

If he wants to resign over the issue, let him go.

If he takes the issue "to the people" in a J&K assembly election and seeks their mandate for the removal of the AFSPA, we should still ignore him.

The people of India want AFSPA to stay.

[ramana]

So its propaganda that MHA backs the removal of AFSPA when the CCS has decided to let UC take the decision. If so then the MHA has no bearingon the subject. Why is PC and his minions views being brought in to cloud the decision?

Pioneer

Army paints grim scenario

Uses forums to convince J&K CM that removal of AFSPA will help anti-India forces

The Army is utilising diverse forums to convince the political establishment in Jammu & Kashmir and New Delhi to halt Chief Minister Omar Abdullah’s plans to withdraw Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) from selected areas of the embattled State. While former Generals defend the Army’s version in television studios and newspaper columns, the serving Generals vociferously take up the issue in formal interactions and communication with the civilian Government.

{Even Pioneer doesn't getit. How else can the Army make its views known when officialdom is stoenwalling it?}

On Wednesday, Commander of vital Srinagar-based XV Corps Lt Gen Syed Atta Hasnain elaborated the Army’s point of view in the Unified Command Headquarters meeting in Jammu. The Army simultaneously sent a note to the State Government citing its reservations on possible revocation of AFSPA. The State Government has not confirmed receipt of any formal note from the Army.

{See stonewalling and coverup.}

Sources said that the Army has cited both internal and external threats including the number of militants operating in Jammu & Kashmir and those waiting in the wings at training camps in Pakistan and PoK to get the go-ahead to infiltrate through the Line of Control. Gen Hasnain’s XV Corps manages security in entire Kashmir Valley including the Line of Control in North Kashmir. The Corps Commander is also the security advisor to the Chief Minister.

In Delhi, a day after Jammu & Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah asserted that he has the authority to remove AFSPA, Defence Minister AK Antony said that the Unified Command of the state would take the final decision on the issue.

Incidentally, the Chief Minister is the chairman of the Unified Command comprising representatives of all the stake holders including the Army, Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), Border Security Force (BSF), State police and intelligence agencies.

Airing his views on the proposed move by the Jammu & Kashmir Government, Antony said here on the sidelines of a function organised by the Institute of Defence Studies and Analyses (IDSA), “The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) last year decided to leave it to the Unified Command to take a decision on partial withdrawal of AFSPA in Jammu & Kashmir.”

He said this when asked to comment on the issue of revocation of AFSPA and Jammu & Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah’s statement that he had the authority to withdraw it from the state. Abdullah had said, “As Chief Minister of the State, I have the authority to lift AFSPA.”

Antony said the Defence Ministry had already conveyed its view to the Government on the “sensitive” issue and there should be no public debate on it. The issue gained currency last month when Abdullah announced that the Act would be revoked from parts of the State “within few days.”

Back in Srinagar, the Army, sources said, had attempted to convey to the Chief Minister that it was in the interest of Pakistan’s Army, its spy agency Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) and the pro-azaadi groups in Kashmir, both ultras and politicians, to disempower the Army in Jammu & Kashmir. The note has explicitly referred to the Army’s role in curbing militancy within the countryside and infiltration through the LoC that resulted in declining levels of violence.

The Army has explained that 2,500 terrorists were ready to sneak into Kashmir from PoK to join another 400 ultras already active in the region. It has also referred to presence of 20,000 former militants as potential to up the ante in the Valley citing that separatist groups had been successful in raising public passions against the security forces on several occasions. Analysts say that the Army has hinted towards recurrence of public protests similar to 2008 (during Amarnath land row) and 2010 (against the killing of more than a hundred civilians by the police and paramilitaries).

A Northern Commander, who is defending army's stance in media after retirement, had famously called the public uprisings as “agitational terrorism”. He says that it was because of the Army's flag marches in Srinagar and Baramulla that helped to restore order in Kashmir in 2010 summer.

Sources said that the Army had also referred to withdrawal of US-led forces from Afghanistan by 2014 as another reason to handle the AFSPA issue cautiously. They said that the situation in Afghanistan has a bearing on Kashmir as it would realign the Pakistan Army's strategy and security outlook in the region.

Meanwhile, describing the revocation of laws like AFSPA and Disturbed Areas Act as inevitable, former Chief Minister and opposition Peoples Democratic Party patron Mufti Muhammed Sayeed said these stringent and exceptional measures were unsustainable in view of the vastly changed internal scenario in the state and the visible signs of improvement in relation between India and Pakistan.

Addressing party workers he said that Jammu & Kashmir could not be denied full democratic rights on the pretext of security. “The people of this state have proved that they are the best guarantors of peace and all emergency measures will have to go sooner than later,” he said.

Mufti said AFSPA has outlived its utility and the PDP had pointed this out in 2007 as part of the larger peace process that had been set in motion in 2003. “I had taken in up with the PM and the committees were set up at the highest level to review it,” he said. “But unfortunately the state government failed to follow up on that initiative and instead the CM started making cosmetic noises to deflect attention from the huge governance deficit that was pointed out even by the union cabinet last year as a major reason for unrest in the State”.

So Omar Abdulalh wants to steal Muftis' thunder and that is why he is claiming sole aothroity to revoke AFSPA.

In the end its all about politics.

The outcome of what will happen is mired in conditionalities (US departure from Afghanistan which will allow TSP to task more terrorists towards Kashmir) and probabilities (things might turn out different) based on past experience (earlier outbreaks of violence and ~2000 terrorists lurking across LOC).

Hence the Army stance is right to not revoke AFSPA.

I would wait beyond 2014 till US leaves the area and how things develop.

[skher]

So its propaganda that MHA backs the removal of AFSPA when the CCS has decided to let UC take the decision. If so then the MHA has no bearingon the subject. Why is PC and his minions views being brought in to cloud the decision?

saar...it seems to indicate more confidence in HM's ability to manage the Central Armed Police Forces, the ministry in general and allow CRPF to claim the turf as the prime COIN agency. A possible entry point to creation of National Counter Terrorism Centre.

So Omar Abdulalh wants to steal Muftis' thunder and that is why he is claiming sole aothroity to revoke AFSPA.

In the end its all about politics.

Then, it's better to use the act to your advantage and gain the force's confidence.Also, he isn't good at stealing thunder eg. Amarnath 2007.

Perhaps defenders are now better ,invisible, in very small groups.I remember men marking Dal Road like streetlights a few years earlier.The Act might help in reducing visibility without comprising security,the sheerness of which might give locals another excuse to not work - 'the IA shoos tourists away'.

JMT

[ramana]

Lets see how the situation develops after 2014 and then decide. Its too early now and we cant take chances.

[Viv S]

ViVS, The issue is if its revoked partially those areas can become safe havens for terrorists. That is the main argument besides others. The others are OA is acting as if IA is an occupying force where as it is IA that restored law an dorder to those very areas he wnats to remove AFSPA. Its his attitude that is troubling.

That's precisely why I'm saying lets have a debate but one that focuses on the likely-hood of the areas in question becoming safe havens for terrorists. Its why I used the example of Kathua - the simple geography and demographics of the district make it practically impossible for it to become a safe haven for terrorists. The state of the other districts mentioned is less absolute but yes they are peaceful today and that peace is being maintained by the police and paramilitary forces. All the CM is asking is for the status quo to be formalized. And even this isn't set in stone - just like the Army can come to the aid of the civil administration in the event of .. say the riot in UP, the Army can be recalled to the districts in question as well, in the unlikely event that their help is needed.

Its true that the bulk of the work in pacifying the insurgency was done by the Army, lets not completely overlook the contributions of the paramilitary and J&K Police, who've made sacrifices of their own. There is no reason not to trust them with security in regions that they are already handling, and doing a good job of it as well.

As regarding OA's attitude, while things have become acrimonious now, they didn't start out this way. His proposal itself wasn't unreasonable -

1. He's not demanding the that the terms of the AFSPA be diluted, which would weaken the legal safeguards provided to troops engaged in CI Ops.
2. He's not demanding that the army cease operations in areas where its currently conducting them, which would leave those areas vulnerable to militants in the region.
3. His demand has not come at an unreasonable time. While (mostly unsuccessful) infiltration attempts have seen a spike recently, militancy itself is at record lows with the Home Ministry feeling comfortable enough to redeploy some paramilitary forces to other parts of the country.
4. If anything the army's position was crudely stated with the - if you support lifting the act you're either an ISI stooge, secessionist or terrorist. And while I don't know about OA, I'm certainly wondering which category I fit under.

[Viv S]

What I don't understand about Omar Abdullah's stance is the following:

He wants to remove the AFSPA from districts where the Army is not currently deployed. Question is, what does that achieve? The allegation I have heard is that AFSPA potentially gives cover to the Army if they commit human rights violations. But if the Army is not even deployed in these districts, how can they commit any action. So what is the point of removing the AFSPA from those districts?

Now, where the Army is deployed, AFSPA is a necessity.

So, we have a Catch 22 situation here.

AFSPA has to stay everywhere

But then why restrict it just to J&K. Why not have the act enforced all over the country?

The Army has said the politicians must exploit the space it created for a dialogue and a start to permanent peace. This is how you do it. Lifting the AFSPA may make no practical difference to state of affairs but it will send a strong social and political statement across the state. A statements with two facets to it -

1. The current situation isn't permanent even if its been around for twenty years. Residents of J&K, even those not residing in the designated areas, do have a normal future to look forward to, one that rest of the country takes for granted. The only variable being the time taken to get there.

2. Just as importantly - regions where the militancy dies out, get to enjoy relaxed security norms. If that sounds good, help out.

[Rudradev]

saar...it seems to indicate more confidence in HM's ability to manage the Central Armed Police Forces, the ministry in general and allow CRPF to claim the turf as the prime COIN agency. A possible entry point to creation of National Counter Terrorism Centre.

[

This statement was actually a lightbulb moment for me.

Yes, this is a move by the HM and its tools (CRPF, IB etc.) to claim turf from the army as the prime COIN agency.

Since the IA is apolitical... IA being the prime COIN agency thus far, posed no danger to democracy.

However, if the HM takes over the COIN mantle... the next thing you know, they will be enacting equivalents of AFSPA to empower their own limbs. POTA, TADA type implements... but even more draconian. They will justify these implements in the name of "national security" because they will be employed in J&K, NE etc. in much the same way as AFSPA was.

However, unlike the AFSPA... these implements will be at the disposal of the very political central govt. of India, to use as it pleases in any part of India.

Combine this situation with PC and Pigvijay's pronouncements on "Saffron Terrorism"... with things like the NAC's "Communal Violence Bill", expressly targeted against Hindus and only Hindus... and it's not difficult to see where things will go from here.

There is a desire within the HM to restore the crushing power of Central Govt authority that existed in Indira Gandhis' day... but put it at the disposal of a regime that doesn't enjoy a fraction of the popular legitimacy that Indira Gandhi did. The objective is to replace AFSPA and Indian Army with a highly politicized force, exercising extra-constitutional powers, that can selectively target domestic political opposition.

[Muppalla]

AFSPA is important for Army to keep JK away from Terrorist harbourers and not that important to keep the areas away from Terrorists. The terrorist harbourers are allover in NC, PDP, JK-INC. The lives of these hafta collectors has become very difficult in those areas where there is peace and also no army. The reason is using AFSPA, army can come anytime to open the house and do searches. The searches can result in getting someone from NC, PDP or JK-INC. This is the real reason for OA asking that AFSPA should go from relative peaceful areas and where there is no Army anyway. Army wants the tool to avoid resurgence of Terrorist friends.

[eklavya]

What I don't understand about Omar Abdullah's stance is the following:

He wants to remove the AFSPA from districts where the Army is not currently deployed. Question is, what does that achieve? The allegation I have heard is that AFSPA potentially gives cover to the Army if they commit human rights violations. But if the Army is not even deployed in these districts, how can they commit any action. So what is the point of removing the AFSPA from those districts?

Now, where the Army is deployed, AFSPA is a necessity.

So, we have a Catch 22 situation here.

AFSPA has to stay everywhere

But then why restrict it just to J&K. Why not have the act enforced all over the country?

The Army has said the politicians must exploit the space it created for a dialogue and a start to permanent peace. This is how you do it. Lifting the AFSPA may make no practical difference to state of affairs but it will send a strong social and political statement across the state. A statements with two facets to it -

1. The current situation isn't permanent even if its been around for twenty years. Residents of J&K, even those not residing in the designated areas, do have a normal future to look forward to, one that rest of the country takes for granted. The only variable being the time taken to get there.

2. Just as importantly - regions where the militancy dies out, get to enjoy relaxed security norms. If that sounds good, help out.

If the Army believes it needs AFSPA powers to maintain security in J&K, then the act has to stay in place.

Omar Abdullah is just posturing for political advantage. What does he know about countering militancy in J&K? What are his security credentials? If the Indian Army says AFSPA powers are necessary to maintain security, then the benefit of the doubt in my mind goes to the Indian Army, and not to some egotistical preening half-wit trying to make a name for himself.

When every single Kashmiri pandit is back in their house and can live without fear, then remove AFSPA.

In the meantime, don't unfairly and short-sightedly target the one institution that keeps the nation secure.

[ramana]

Ekalavya, So far the argument is to remove AFSPA from those districts the Army is not nay way present. If Army isn't present in those areas, then why remove AFSPA as it is not being enforced by the non-present Army no?

Rudradev, Can you x-post in the strategic leadership thread? I think what we are seengg is he move to increase the powers of the MHA in order to get draconian powers that are lacking with them. Note its the MHA goons that are going after the 'saffron' terrorists. So if folks can read your post with Bharat Subramaniam's post things might get clear.

[Dipanker]

Notice the number of lies she is telling, this is from the seperatist rag in Srinagar.

Revoke AFSPA, demilitarise JK: Arundhati

New York, Nov 12: Noted Indian writer Arundhati Roy has said revoking the controversial Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) from Jammu and Kashmir and demilitarisation is required to ensure the right of self-determination to the people of the state. She said a country cannot call itself a democracy if people are forced to live under military rule.
“I want to say unambiguously that I do not think any country that calls itself a democracy has the right to force people to remain in it in a militaristic way, the way that India is doing in order to prove that it’s a secular country,” Roy said at a panel discussion on ‘Kashmir: The Case for Freedom’ at the Asia Society here.
“I think that the people of Kashmir have the right to self-determination, they have the right to choose who they want to be and how they want to be. The first step would be to demilitarise, to withdraw this absolutely unbelievable law the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA),” Roy said.
She said Kashmir is one of the most protracted and bloody occupations in the world and one of the most ignored. “While India brutalizes Kashmir in so many ways, that occupation brutalizes the Indians,” she said and called for demilitarization of Kashmir as a step towards peace in the region. “Why the international community doesn’t see that when you have two nuclear-armed states, like Pakistan and India, there couldn’t be a better thing than a buffer state like Kashmir between them, instead of it being a conflict that is going to spark a nuclear war.”
She lamented that so little is known about the “atrocities being committed by more than half a million Indian troops, the continuing repression and indignities let loose on Kashmiri men, women and children.”
“More than 700,000 troops were concentrated in the tiny valley, with check points at every nook and corner of Kashmiri towns and cities. The huge Indian presence is in sharp contrast with 160,000 US troops in Iraq,” she pointed out.
Roy attributed the apathy towards Kashmir, especially in the western world, to their pursuit of commercial interests in India where they were more eager to sell their goods than human rights.
“Even as the world speaks about the Arab spring—three years ago there was massive unarmed uprising in the streets of Kashmir,” she said, adding that the security forces there were not looking away; “they were killing young children.”
“In Kashmir freedom of speech is non-existent and human rights abuses were routine. Elections were rigged and press controlled and the lives of Kashmiris were made miserable by gun-toting security personnel,” Roy said and added that disappearances were almost a daily occurrence in Kashmir as also kidnapping, arrests, fake encounters and torture. “Mass graves have been discovered and the conscience of the world remained unstirred,” she said.
She reminded that before his election, President Barack Obama had pledged to resolve the international dispute of Kashmir between Pakistan and India. But seeing “consternation” in India over the remark, Obama hasn’t said a word about Kashmir since, she said, adding that he was more interested in selling military aircraft and Boeings to India.
Roy said India had also successfully used the argument that if it it gave up Kashmir, another Islamic state would emerge - a prospect the West feared. “That’s why India had made no effort to bring back to the Valley the Kashmiri Pandits who fled at the height of armed uprising in the state. Aren’t 7000,000 troops enough to protect the Pandits?” she asked.
Two other Indian writers - Pankaj Mishra and a PhD student, Muhammad Junaid, from Kashmir - also deplored the fact that the international community gave such little attention to the suffering of the Kashmiri people. (with inputs from other agencies)

[eklavya]

Notice the number of lies she is telling, this is from the seperatist rag in Srinagar.

Revoke AFSPA, demilitarise JK: Arundhati

New York, Nov 12: Noted Indian writer Arundhati Roy has said revoking the controversial Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) from Jammu and Kashmir and demilitarisation is required to ensure the right of self-determination to the people of the state. She said a country cannot call itself a democracy if people are forced to live under military rule.
“I want to say unambiguously that I do not think any country that calls itself a democracy has the right to force people to remain in it in a militaristic way, the way that India is doing in order to prove that it’s a secular country,” Roy said at a panel discussion on ‘Kashmir: The Case for Freedom’ at the Asia Society here.
“I think that the people of Kashmir have the right to self-determination, they have the right to choose who they want to be and how they want to be. The first step would be to demilitarise, to withdraw this absolutely unbelievable law the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA),” Roy said.
She said Kashmir is one of the most protracted and bloody occupations in the world and one of the most ignored. “While India brutalizes Kashmir in so many ways, that occupation brutalizes the Indians,” she said and called for demilitarization of Kashmir as a step towards peace in the region. “Why the international community doesn’t see that when you have two nuclear-armed states, like Pakistan and India, there couldn’t be a better thing than a buffer state like Kashmir between them, instead of it being a conflict that is going to spark a nuclear war.”
She lamented that so little is known about the “atrocities being committed by more than half a million Indian troops, the continuing repression and indignities let loose on Kashmiri men, women and children.”
“More than 700,000 troops were concentrated in the tiny valley, with check points at every nook and corner of Kashmiri towns and cities. The huge Indian presence is in sharp contrast with 160,000 US troops in Iraq,” she pointed out.
Roy attributed the apathy towards Kashmir, especially in the western world, to their pursuit of commercial interests in India where they were more eager to sell their goods than human rights.
“Even as the world speaks about the Arab spring—three years ago there was massive unarmed uprising in the streets of Kashmir,” she said, adding that the security forces there were not looking away; “they were killing young children.”
“In Kashmir freedom of speech is non-existent and human rights abuses were routine. Elections were rigged and press controlled and the lives of Kashmiris were made miserable by gun-toting security personnel,” Roy said and added that disappearances were almost a daily occurrence in Kashmir as also kidnapping, arrests, fake encounters and torture. “Mass graves have been discovered and the conscience of the world remained unstirred,” she said.
She reminded that before his election, President Barack Obama had pledged to resolve the international dispute of Kashmir between Pakistan and India. But seeing “consternation” in India over the remark, Obama hasn’t said a word about Kashmir since, she said, adding that he was more interested in selling military aircraft and Boeings to India.
Roy said India had also successfully used the argument that if it it gave up Kashmir, another Islamic state would emerge - a prospect the West feared. “That’s why India had made no effort to bring back to the Valley the Kashmiri Pandits who fled at the height of armed uprising in the state. Aren’t 7000,000 troops enough to protect the Pandits?” she asked.
Two other Indian writers - Pankaj Mishra and a PhD student, Muhammad Junaid, from Kashmir - also deplored the fact that the international community gave such little attention to the suffering of the Kashmiri people. (with inputs from other agencies)

Her positions and rhetoric are so extreme and unbalanced, and her relationship with the facts are somewhat unfriendly, that she has lost all credibility in India, and increasingly outside India. Most people think of her as belonging to the "loony fringe". With each passing day, she sounds more frustrated and more irrelevant.

Aatish Taseer describes her perfectly (also posted by A_Gupta on the TSP thread):

http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/atas ... interview/

Ida: Sorry! So, we’ve talked about Noon, we’ve talked about Pakistan and your father, what about India? You’ve said some pretty harsh things about a certain writer cum activists on the Left–no names!–who, we in the States, kind of like. She seems, in an environment of rapacious capitalism, to be a friend of the poor and marginalised. What possible objection could you have to her?

Aatish: None except that I don’t think she’s a friend of the poor at all. She would like to doom them to a permanent state of picturesque poverty. They are beautiful to her–the poor–beautiful, benign and faceless. And that is exactly how she wants them to stay. Let me say also that it is not the poor who animate her politics. Oh, no! The people who get her into the streets are the new middle classes. This class, still among the most fragile in India, people who have newly emerged from the most dire conditions, are despicable to her. She mocks their clothes; their trouble with English; she hates their ambitions; when India wins the cricket and she sees them celebrating, her skin crawls; she wants, more than anything, to do these people down. And it is her overwhelming hatred of them that allows her to be a friend of movements that are seemingly far apart. The jihadists, the Maoists, the Kashmir movement, the anti-development people…they’re all her friends. Anyone who can prove a credible threat to the future of India is a friend of that woman. I would go so far as to say she has a prurient fascination with the enemies of India. And where do they love her? In Pakistan, and in the faculty rooms of Europe and America. No surprise there.

Also, this business of pretending she’s a lone voice in the wilderness. What rubbish! At least have the good grace to admit that not one thing she says is provocative or new; it is perfectly banal. And we know how well the universities Europe and America reward this bogus cant!

[ramana]

She is getting hawa because Omar and PC are also saying the same thing. Yet no one calls them in same terms as they call her.

[Theo_Fidel]

ARoy is loony in her own right. She is more than loony, she is demented now. Wish some one would send her off to Pandaland. Or financially bankrupt her so she loses her cosy safe nook in Lutyens Dilli. She says without removing AFSPA India is not a democracy. OA & PC don't say that.

This is not dissimilar to TN politicians 'troubles' with dealing with the LTTE. Esp. pre-RG assassination. They too would try to get 'cute' by pushing the envelope. OA is trying to co-opt the separatist electorate. Yes, hard though it is to believe the separatists have the vote and do vote. He is trying to create his own little vote bank that no one else can touch.

[eklavya]

She is getting hawa because Omar and PC are also saying the same thing. Yet no one calls them in same terms as they call her.

Politics does indeed make for strange bedfellows.

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?262519

What are we to make of the fact that the Union home minister, P. Chidambaram, the CEO of Operation Green Hunt, has, in his career as a corporate lawyer, represented several mining corporations? What are we to make of the fact that he was a non-executive director of Vedanta—a position from which he resigned the day he became finance minister in 2004? What are we to make of the fact that, when he became finance minister, one of the first clearances he gave for FDI was to Twinstar Holdings, a Mauritius-based company, to buy shares in Sterlite, a part of the Vedanta group?

PC should choose his company more carefully. Omar Abdullah's cockiness is no doubt derived from his friendship with Rahul Gandhi, and PC I expect is doing his master's bidding. I do feel a bit sorry for him ...

[eklavya]

ARoy is loony in her own right. She is more than loony, she is demented now. Wish some one would send her off to Pandaland. Or financially bankrupt her so she loses her cosy safe nook in Lutyens Dilli. She says without removing AFSPA India is not a democracy. OA & PC don't say that.

This is not dissimilar to TN politicians 'troubles' with dealing with the LTTE. Esp. pre-RG assassination. They too would try to get 'cute' by pushing the envelope. OA is trying to co-opt the separatist electorate. Yes, hard though it is to believe the separatists have the vote and do vote. He is trying to create his own little vote bank that no one else can touch.

While I happen to disagree with almost everything they write, I quite like the fact that we have half-wits like A Roy and P Mishra roaming around spreading the odd bad smell. It is living proof of how tolerant India's democracy is. Its nice to know that in case we too accidentally loose our marbles, they won't lock us up ....

[abhishek_sharma]

Armed man at Geelani’s rally a military official: Army

Hurriyat throws AFSPA challenge

[abhishek_sharma]

Two Regions and a Mountain Train

[CRamS]

My answer to ARoy would be that OK no problem, if you don't want to call India a democracy, thats fine, but we ain't revoking AFSPA.

[skher]

If the Army believes it needs AFSPA powers to maintain security in J&K, then the act has to stay in place.
..
When every single Kashmiri pandit is back in their house and can live without fear, then remove AFSPA.

Heartfully, most members of my community, pine to return to a much fabled land.But this completely misses the point of AFSP act debate. Long story short, debate is the way forward to develop the entire state - the sustainable grounds for return.

Realistically, thank you all for a home that prompts even the most ardent azaadi KMs to search a future out of the state, or in the least,to Jammu.

Some KPs wish for a Israel-like "panun Kashmir" carved from cold desert of Ladakh region before they Aliyah - I vehemently oppose this disinformation of intent - clearly a bad habit of many Kashmiris.

A clear disinformation of intent can be inferred from hon'ble CM Omar Adbullah's recent speech.
To be fairest possible, he seems to wish for complete overhaul of Rashtriya Rifles on Assam Rifles lines:

1. Rename Rashtriya Rifles to pre-1953 status name, as J&K Rifles.Better yet, imo, Kashmir Rifles,under MHA. Have distinct features in uniform , say pherans and Karakulis. Motto "Friends of Valley people".
2.Recruit youths locally, directly and permanently.Officers on secondment and not three year deputations.
3.Reorganise Force Hqs into battalions: Jammu(D,R & U), Kashmir(V & K) and Ladakh (Leh and Kargil).
? Merge SOG as an autonomous part of new force.
? Supervision of emergency services viz: fire,rescue, paramedics and disaster relief by attaching State Home guard/civil defence org. under new SDIG post.
? Break J&K police into separate organizations on similar lines.
? New State Youth service that participates in Op Sadbhavna.

This statement was actually a lightbulb moment for me.
Yes, this is a move by the HM and its tools (CRPF, IB etc.) to claim turf from the army as the prime COIN agency.

Rudradevjee, the above bulleted list is an encore.cross-posting to strategic leadership.

P.S.:
This forum has been a way to say my thanks, especially when many other 'martial races' chose to protect a majority of Pandits. Legend: Kashmir Pandits(KPs), Kashmiri Muslims(KMs),Omar Abdullah (OA).

[CRamS]

Armed man at Geelani’s rally a military official: Army

The spotting & nabbing of this military intelligence official by TSP proxies gives you a measure of how much TSP controls the ground situation in the valley and the extent of its tentacles.

[member_19648]

The spotting & nabbing of this military intelligence official by TSP proxies gives you a measure of how much TSP controls the ground situation in the valley and the extent of its tentacles.

Don't think its normal for spies to carry guns to public rallies specially non-violent ones, if caught, getting beaten up would be normal as the crowd would panic and take that person immediately to be a terrorist. And TSP having ground control of J&K is totally bullshit, they don't have control of their own state leave other nations! The rats have started a business and again know how to take advantage of the loopholes in the Indian system. As they rip both sides who desperately try to gain leverage out of them, they are the real benefactors even if they can keep the flame going! Like people join rallies without knowing whats it all about, people follow him in the name of religion without knowing what he is all about!

[Supratik]

As peace returns to J&K we should seriously start thinking about dividing it into three states. This will
reduce the space further for separatists to play with.

Ramana is right in that we should wait to see how things evolve after US withdrawal before revoking AFSPA.

Getting worked up over AR or PM is going to do nothing but increase your BP. As long as they are unable to
set the agenda on the ground they should be ignored.

Kher and Raina,
What is the situation wrt return of KPs to the valley?

[abhishek_sharma]

‘Keep J&K special, make LoC porous’: Interlocutors

Among the salient recommendations:

* The state’s status must be termed ‘special’ as with several states under Article 371.

* The governor should be appointed by the President but only picked out of three names received from the state Assembly.

* The nomenclatures of the governor and chief minister should remain the same in English but equivalent nomenclatures to be used solely in Urdu could be considered.

* No changes in Article 356 but if the government is to be dismissed, elections should be held within three months. And for cases involving imposing internal emergency, the state government must be consulted beforehand.

* Promotion of officers from all India services be gradually reduced in favour of officers from the state civil service without compromising efficiency.

* No further Central laws must be extended to the state by presidential order.

[ramana]

Are they out of mind? No wonder they were on Fai payroll.

how can elections be held in 3 months?

And whats this 3 names submitted by Assembly? It removes the right of the Center to appoint Rajyadhyaksa.

And every state has its quota of Central services officers. J&K has no more nor less.

[JE Menon]

Several of these interlocutors have been linked to the ISI indirectly. And this is not mere allegation. Their "interlocutor" Fai is being charged with espionage in the US after an extensive investigation (and we know that such cases do not reach this stage until the arresting agency is certain they have a case)... The credibility of these interlocutors therefore is more than suspect.

[abhishek_sharma]

AFSPA debate reaches Delhi as key players meet

[Anindya]

Several of these interlocutors have been linked to the ISI indirectly. And this is not mere allegation. Their "interlocutor" Fai is being charged with espionage in the US after an extensive investigation (and we know that such cases do not reach this stage until the arresting agency is certain they have a case)... The credibility of these interlocutors therefore is more than suspect.

The problem is that the links to Pakistani agencies of some of these interlocutors must have been known to GOI - so, why were they selected.

For example, connections to Pakistani agencies of one of the interlocutors was something that I'd heard from journalists several years ago.

So, what gives?

[jagbani]

Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah Sunday met Defence Minister A.K. Antony in New Delhi to discuss his government's demand for withdrawal of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) from parts of the state.

The meeting between Abdullah and Antony comes four days ahead of a meeting of the Jammu and Kashmir cabinet on Nov 17 to discuss the repeal of AFSPA from some part of the states.

http://www.punjabkesari.in/punjab/fulls ... 62_155452-

[Aditya_V]

‘Keep J&K special, make LoC porous’: Interlocutors

Among the salient recommendations:



* No further Central laws must be extended to the state by presidential order.

Right can we have this every where, what kind of stuff are these guys sponsoring.

[JE Menon]

>>The problem is that the links to Pakistani agencies of some of these interlocutors must have been known to GOI - so, why were they selected.

Good question Anindya, and one I wish we didn't have to answer here. There are two possibilities:

1. Incompetence or Negligence.

2. Trojan Horse approach. Allow a flawed process to run its course, allowing you the ability to pull back at any time. Look where we are now. A not atypical babu "solution". GoI (and Congress) gets the best of all worlds - appear to be genuinely interested in dialogue and the furthering Kashmiri aspirations (PR gain); and now that the flaws are evident, put the ball in the other court and say see we did our best, even allowing known sympathisers to lead the process, but look at their antecedents. The separatists end up looking like fools and ISI dependents, the "interlocutors" come out looking like conned scroungers in the best case interpretation or traitors in the worst.

Take your pick of the options ... Babus don't mind either way, I'm sure.

[CRamS]

PM, Chidambaram 'receptive' on AFSPA, says Omar. Just whose side are they on?

[Vikas]

^ CRamS ji, There is too much of disinformation campaign going on everywhere. Why raise your BP based upon news by DDM half of whom won't even know what AFSPA actually means or stands for.

[CRamS]

As peace returns to J&K we should seriously start thinking about dividing it into three states. This will
reduce the space further for separatists to play with.

I've never understood this logic. But first, what "peace" are you talking about? As long as there is TSP, there can be no peace.

Coming to your suggestion, both TSP and KMs in the valley will gladly accept a partition of J&K. In fact, their "peaceful" solution through "talks" is precisely this. Partition the state. India keeps Jammu and Ladakh, while TSP gets the valley. TSP will sign on the dotted line tomorrow to such a "deal". Of course, their next course of action will proceed after a brief lull.

[JE Menon]

Have to agre with CRamS here... Never understood the logic of trifurcation... Separatists have jacksh1t to play with now, and will have more jacksh1t to play with later. The idea of trifurcating the state simply gives the separatists more non-existent "hope". That has a certain attraction to it, but on the other hand we will have to up with more nonsense from the WKKs of various stripes.

[chaanakya]

As peace returns to J&K we should seriously start thinking about dividing it into three states. This will
reduce the space further for separatists to play with.

I've never understood this logic. But first, what "peace" are you talking about? As long as there is TSP, there can be no peace.

Coming to your suggestion, both TSP and KMs in the valley will gladly accept a partition of J&K. In fact, their "peaceful" solution through "talks" is precisely this. Partition the state. India keeps Jammu and Ladakh, while TSP gets the valley. TSP will sign on the dotted line tomorrow to such a "deal". Of course, their next course of action will proceed after a brief lull.

+1
Trifurcation of J&K on religious line is to endorse the idea of Partition which would legitimise separation on religious grounds and India would be ripe for several more partitions. And of course TSp would claim natural inheritance to the Valley. It would not guarantee stoppage of terror activities as 1971 is still stuck in their a$$.

[chaanakya]

Among the salient recommendations:

* The state’s status must be termed ‘special’ as with several states under Article 371.

* The governor should be appointed by the President but only picked out of three names received from the state Assembly.

* The nomenclatures of the governor and chief minister should remain the same in English but equivalent nomenclatures to be used solely in Urdu could be considered.

* No changes in Article 356 but if the government is to be dismissed, elections should be held within three months. And for cases involving imposing internal emergency, the state government must be consulted beforehand.

* Promotion of officers from all India services be gradually reduced in favour of officers from the state civil service without compromising efficiency.

* No further Central laws must be extended to the state by presidential order.

>>The problem is that the links to Pakistani agencies of some of these interlocutors must have been known to GOI - so, why were they selected.

Good question Anindya, and one I wish we didn't have to answer here. There are two possibilities:

1. Incompetence or Negligence.

2. Trojan Horse approach. Allow a flawed process to run its course, allowing you the ability to pull back at any time. Look where we are now. A not atypical babu "solution". GoI (and Congress) gets the best of all worlds - appear to be genuinely interested in dialogue and the furthering Kashmiri aspirations (PR gain); and now that the flaws are evident, put the ball in the other court and say see we did our best, even allowing known sympathisers to lead the process, but look at their antecedents. The separatists end up looking like fools and ISI dependents, the "interlocutors" come out looking like conned scroungers in the best case interpretation or traitors in the worst.

Take your pick of the options ... Babus don't mind either way, I'm sure.

It is neither.
These interlocutors were selected specifically by PM , Babus' feedback would have little to do in such matters.
It would not take much to shoot down these treasonous ideas as implications and consequences are huge for the rest of India.

[chaanakya]

Two Regions and a Mountain Train

From above.

The then prime minister Indira Gandhi inaugurated the project in 1983, but work started in 2002 after the Atal Bihari Vajpayee-led NDA government declared it a national project. But the idea to connect the regions of Jammu and Srinagar goes back much further in history.

It was first conceived in 1889 by the state’s Dogra ruler Maharaja Pratap Singh, who invited suggestions from experts. The British proposed a railway line between Srinagar and Rawalpindi in 1902 and then again in 1905. However, as much of the state’s population travelled between Jammu and the Valley, the Maharaja decided in favour of a railway line between Jammu and Srinagar via Reasi. Work started on the project and an office of the chief engineer was established at Reasi, but it was later put on hold in view of disturbances across the country. The initial deadline for the project was August 2007, but it’s now set at 2017.

It should enter into Records Book for longest project from idea to completion.

[JE Menon]

>>Babus' feedback would have little to do in such matters.

Don't be too sure chaanakya. Babu's feedback in this case may simply have been "silence", knowing what they surely knew. On the other hand, PM's specific picks and all that can be very quickly undermined.... Remember Vivek Katju with Vajpayee and Musharraf, when the vain dickhead was flabbergasted when Katju decided to interject? Not saying it happens all the time, but these chaps know how to handle these matters.

Of course, it could well be incompetence and negligence - because if they simply let MMS do whatever he wants (and what I personally increasingly believe is his legacy-driven policy specifically towards Pakistan) then it is at best negligence and at worst incompetence... Neither of which speaks well of our polity