J&K News and Discussion-2011

[prahaar]

Valley vote share of BJP = 1%

acc to CNN-IBN, shows all what works.

Please share the source (if available at hand).

[pankajs]

There was no harm in trying .. except a lot of precious time was wasted for the next cycle comes in 6 years. If Modi in his prime did not get purchase in the valley the troika should and I hope would change track.

Perhaps after a coalition government takes over and allowing them some space to wreak havoc some jodh/todh could be tried say in a years time leading up to re-election. Now that BJP has shown that it is relevant in J&K and with a focus on winnable seats they can gather sweep the non-valley seats.

[Rahul M]

IBN has no source. it closer to 8 % in kashmir.

[CRamS]

Guys, any thoughts on the election results in J&K? I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, I am very disappointed that BJP did not score in the valley. And happy that it scored big in Jammu. (Very interesting that perverts like US citizen Siddarth Vardarajan attribute BJP's victory in Jammu as Hindu polarization, but its defeat in the valley is not Muslim polarization, but due to Hindu Chauvinism. Do these toadies really take themselves seriously? ).

Coming back to the results, I am skeptical if PDP will agree to form a coalition govt with BJP. I have no proof, but the traitors in the PDP I am sure are in constant touch with ISI to keep BJP put. And speaking of TSP, they may not be to unhappy with this verdict, especially with so many PDP traitors who keep saying this is not verdict that addresses the "Kashmir issue", and India must talk to TSP. Most likely, PDP will lay hardball with ModiJi knowing that they can dangle the secessionist card and blackmail India. So once again, valley will brim with TSP's machinations.

[Shreeman]

Outcome is pretty reasonable.

BJP shouldnt really join with PDP. But iut might, just to prove its bania credentials. There is no other stable government option on the table. BJP+NC+others will be less palatable due to the nature of "others". Like Delhi, overall the results are the expected outcome.

J&K is not a democratic dispensation until the seats are distributed population wise. It would have been a good thing if repatration of internally displaced had started in this term. Now it looks like that will wait for another election.

PDP will have some fractures at some point. If it splits now, there might be an "indian" government in the state after all. Otherwise mid term elections sooner or later. Those will benefit congress. National conference is losing its status except in amethi type seats. That is not a good thing if PDP types gain, otherwise it is not a bad thing by itself. At one point Rae Bareili was like Amethi. Few would remember now. If the same happens in j&k you might see younger/locally focussed candidates less interested in international matters.

Overall, this is a huge step forward. The peshawar event will give pause to outspoken hatred in j&k long enough for next mid-terms if no settlement right now. Even if PDP+BJP, expect mid terms at some point. Evrn if BJP doesnt want thrm PDP will.

[CRamS]

Guys, I don't usually read TSP media, but just out of curiosity I poked around to get a sense of what TSP RAPE (Eng language media) is thinking about the J&K poll results. I didn't find anything. Seemed to me to be a complete blackout. I saw news about the massacre in Assam by Bodos, but nothing about the J&K election results. We can get a glimpse of ISI strategy by reading what their mouthpieces are spinning in the media and hence tried to find out.

[dada]

Ukraine (breakaway province of USSR) yesterday dropped its non aligned status & took steps to join NATO in a parliamentary vote 303-8 !

See this development in the context of Kashmir issue. As analogy , we can easily project the future behaviour of Independent Kashmir. Like Ukraine , Independent Kashmir will drop all pretensions of being Independent after a period of few years/decade or less. Dont expect Independent Sunni Kashmir to consider the interests of either India or the Jammu/minorities.

Most of the PDP/NC walas appear to be fence seaters. We need not trust them. From a practical point of view , we have to move towards
Trifurcation of JKL (including Ladakh) at some point in time. Our support to the Jammu people/Kashmiri Pandits must be strengthened at all
costs. Let us focus on completing & securing the strategic rail line connecting Banihal & Katra to start with.

[chetak]

Guys, I don't usually read TSP media, but just out of curiosity I poked around to get a sense of what TSP RAPE (Eng language media) is thinking about the J&K poll results. I didn't find anything. Seemed to me to be a complete blackout. I saw news about the massacre in Assam by Bodos, but nothing about the J&K election results. We can get a glimpse of ISI strategy by reading what their mouthpieces are spinning in the media and hence tried to find out.

Ditto, sirjee. Was curious as to how the pakis saw the J&K election and the results. Complete blackout onlee.

Can any one trawl the paki urdu press, please??

[CRamS]

Guys, is this guy Sajjad Lone someone to be trusted? His wife is a Paki, and while he does say he doesn't subscribe to the boycott BS that Harried rats issue, reading between the lines, it may be that he still has secessionist goals, except tactics have changed

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/s ... ore/349633

[dsreedhar]

I was hoping Hina Bhat to win on BJP ticket. Better luck next time.

[CRamS]

Guys, is it only me following the developments in J&K, I would have that this thread would be a a buzz with all happenings there . Its absolutely amazing the anti-BJP hatred by everyone concerned: PDP, NC, Congress etc. And see the obnoxious demands PDP is making on BJP.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 658699.cms

At one level, I thought that a PDP and BJP coalition govt will tackle head on the ideological differences, and with each side willing to dilute their positions provided of course, both agree on the bottom line that Kashmir's sovereignty is sacrosanct.

But the PDP is not willing to budge on its core demands which essentially boil down to soft secession and that includes giving TSP a foot hold in the valley. And the other outrageous demand that BJP should have no say in the affairs of the valley. And by the way, New Delhi must coff up huge amounts of moolah for their development. Look the b@stards' gall.

Under the circumstances, I am wondering if it is better for BJP to stay in the opposition, and let PDP and NC (or Congress) form the govt, and BJP provides the checks and balances to make sure PDP does not surrender to TSP.

Incidentally, what is more puzzling to me is what is TSP's role in the proceedings? I cannot believe that they are not maneuvering behind the scenes with their proxies in the PDP. But nothing about TSP role either in DDM or TSP RAPE media. Anybody monitoring the Urdu media for any chatter? That should give us a clue. My own feeling is that the demands PDP is making suits TSP fine. After all, giving TSP a say in the valley is the core demand of PDP, and if New Delhi puts in all the effort and resources into developing the valley, at some opportune moment in the future, TSP wouldn't mind riding its horse in downtown Srinagar.

[vishvak]

Considering that BJP has got tremendous response in the Jammu region, PDP demands make no sense. So this is just politicking and nothing more. There is always focus on valley and that is the problem here too.

[CRamS]

What is PDP, NC, and Cong form an alliance. They have the #s. Question is will the Cong go along with the PDP and NC traitors who want to give TSP a say in the valley.

[Rajagopal]

These elections simply confirmed what was known all along.

1) It is crystal clear that the Muslims in the valley will never ever support Indian nationalist parties. The long lines and high turnout percentages was simply to keep out the "Kuffar".

2) It will have the exact same result whether in 2020 or 2026 or 2032. i.e Indian nationalists will win in Jammu and secessionists in Kashmir, leaving a stalemate. Knowing this it makes no sense for BJP to even partner with PDP(or NC). If BJP agrees to partner with PDP, you can expect the PDP to commit sabotage at some point and claim brownie points for having defeated the "kuffars".

3) It is time for India to make hard choices. The state of J & K should be trifurcated into Jammu, Ladakh and Kashmir. This is to be followed by revocation of article 370 in Jammu and Ladakh(now that we have the nationalist majority in place). Rapid development should follow in these states leaving the kashmiris even behind. The trifurcation will send a strong signal to Kashmiris that they don't have any options left. The Kashmiri Pandits should gradually be repopulated in the valley.

The question is, what are the parliament procedures to trifurcate the state.? How tough is to accomplish the same?

[RajeshA]

Guys, is it only me following the developments in J&K, I would have that this thread would be a a buzz with all happenings there . Its absolutely amazing the anti-BJP hatred by everyone concerned: PDP, NC, Congress etc. And see the obnoxious demands PDP is making on BJP.

there have been some analysis and scenario modeling around J&K in the Assembly Elections thread in GDF.

[CRamS]

RajagopalJi,

Good points, but at another level, what we are witnessing is conflict resolution at its best. The PDP is reflecting the views of the secessionists (Muslims) and BJP that of the nationalists (Muslims & Hindus). And as you point out, one has to admit this reality.

Now, coming to conflict resolution, I would have thought that both PDP and BJP will come together and respect the people's mandate for a govt, and then put all issues on the table, and each side compromise to the extent they can. Of course, for this, there has got to be some common minimum. BJP's is that soverignty is non-negotiable, and we can talk about everything else. PDP's is that soverignty is not sacrosanct, that also needs to be on the table.

On this, there can be no compromise as far as India is concerned. So I doubt there will be a PDP (or NC) and BJP alliance on the cards. But who knows.

[Rishirishi]

3) It is time for India to make hard choices. The state of J & K should be trifurcated into Jammu, Ladakh and Kashmir. This is to be followed by revocation of article 370 in Jammu and Ladakh(now that we have the nationalist majority in place). Rapid development should follow in these states leaving the kashmiris even behind. The trifurcation will send a strong signal to Kashmiris that they don't have any options left. The Kashmiri Pandits should gradually be repopulated in the valley.

Only solution to the issue is settling 5-6 million Biharis and Nepalis to the vally. Create a massive Casino type resort, move a million electronics job, or move some other labor intensive industry there. No need to change article 370 yet. No one will be able to stop people from taking up work in the vally. Once the population is changed, just give them vote right and change the article 370. Back up kashmiri Pundits to do the work.

That will fix the problem for good. All hopes of TSP and seperetists will end.

[CRamS]

RishirishiJi, lets debate practical and mature solutions, not fantasy. Right now, Indian nationalists of whatever hue needs to get a foot hold in the affairs of the valley. Thats the only peaceful way for eventual and irreversible integration of the valley into India.

[Rishirishi]

RishirishiJi, lets debate practical and mature solutions, not fantasy. Right now, Indian nationalists of whatever hue needs to get a foot hold in the affairs of the valley. Thats the only peaceful way for eventual and irreversible integration of the valley into India.

The Muslim population in the vally will use every tool in the book to resist anything that ties India closer to Kashmir. It is pure and simple. People in the vally do not want any intigration at any cost.

Only solution is to increase the Non Muslim population in the state and take control. This can be done by creating jobs on a mass scale. Many industries like Electronics, textile etc require mass employment and take up little space (manufacturing can be done in multistory buildings. I have seen it in Hong kong and China. Once you have a 70-80% Non Muslim population you can start to think about intigration, becase all hopes will be lost of having a seperatist state. Industries can be given a irrestible soaps like exempt of duties, tax, land and cheap power. It is all about making it so attractive to set up shop in JK that no one can resist. And all will team up with Pundits.

Is this imoral?
NO, becase it will boost the economy of the entire state and everyone will benefit. No one will have to change the way of life.

[Dipanker]

These elections simply confirmed what was known all along.

1) It is crystal clear that the Muslims in the valley will never ever support Indian nationalist parties. The long lines and high turnout percentages was simply to keep out the "Kuffar".

2) It will have the exact same result whether in 2020 or 2026 or 2032. i.e Indian nationalists will win in Jammu and secessionists in Kashmir, leaving a stalemate. Knowing this it makes no sense for BJP to even partner with PDP(or NC). If BJP agrees to partner with PDP, you can expect the PDP to commit sabotage at some point and claim brownie points for having defeated the "kuffars".

3) It is time for India to make hard choices. The state of J & K should be trifurcated into Jammu, Ladakh and Kashmir. This is to be followed by revocation of article 370 in Jammu and Ladakh(now that we have the nationalist majority in place). Rapid development should follow in these states leaving the kashmiris even behind. The trifurcation will send a strong signal to Kashmiris that they don't have any options left. The Kashmiri Pandits should gradually be repopulated in the valley.

The question is, what are the parliament procedures to trifurcate the state.? How tough is to accomplish the same?

Actually muslims of Pir Panjal region, Chenab valley, and Kargil voted for Congress, so that not bad after all, Congress is still a national party. Jammu overwhelmingly voted for BJP. Thus PDP is boxed in valley and irrespective of their stand they very well know that the valley is going nowhere, India will simply not allow that.
PDP must include Congress or BJP in coalition, most likely BJP given BJP rules the center and controls the purse.

[dada]

This Kashmir political struggle of forming a govt reminds me of
1.Gandhi-Jinnah talks-negotiations (2 years before the actual breakup(partition)

2.Interim Govt (Note how the finance minister AIML appointee Liaquat Khan subverted the working of the govt from within)
Essentially both sides failed to reach a mutually acceptable "power sharing formula"

So what to talk abt "constitutional method" of conflict resolution ?
Both sides found it IMPOSSIBLE to work together

Just as Partition of India split the Muslims of South Asia into 3 parts. Do the same with KMs if INTERNAL trifurcation is inevitable (which it is).

# Rishirishi

Doing whatever & everything it takes to fully integrate Kashmir into the Indian Union is MORAL. Let us send a clear message to the Kashmiris in the Valley that there are no nehrus/ gandhis in near present nor in distant future who will bend backwards to accomodate their secessionist aspiration.

[abhishek_sharma]

As BJP eyes power in Jammu and Kashmir, Centre readies a Pandit rehab plan

[Shanmukh]

Actually muslims of Pir Panjal region, Chenab valley, and Kargil voted for Congress, so that not bad after all,

Actually, no. The Congress won the Shia and the Gujjar regions mainly. The Gujjars are hated by Kashmiris. There is a Kashmiri proverb which roughly translates as `If you see a bear & a Gujjar in the forest, kill the Gujjar first'. Since both the Kashmiri parties are anathema to the Shias and Gujjars, they voted for their least hopeless option. They don't want integration with India at any cost either. They have been happily cleansing the Chenab Hindus whenever they got the chance. It just happens that Hindus are not that weak in the Chenab valley (still around 30-40% in most districts and also control most of the VDCs) as they are in the Kashmir Valley. Same goes for Rajouri. Poonch votes like West Punjab in pre-independence time. Ask Reasi, Kishtwar, Doda, Rajouri or Poonch to vote on Article 370 and see what reaction you get from most Muslims there.

[dada]

analysis of tweets of some kashmiri groups reveals the following points :

1.pdp has positioned itself as muslim centric-soft separatist party now but hard separatist party later (in future)
2. pdp party is divided
3. seniors prefer to join hands-form coalition govt (engage & manage bjp to minimise bjp's interference in kashmir valley)
4. juniors prefer to keep hindus/bjp away (they fear their political future ! )
5. juniors are in majority


Modi Govt is preparing a plan to rehabilitate KPs in the Kashmir Valley
As a Beginning it has identified a land plot of 20 acres where a colony of 1000 flats(families) will be constructed. (Total registered KPs displaced families registered with the Govt is around 62000)

The Tourists coming to the Valley can be accomodated in Tourist Grade Room set aside in each flat. This year 11 lakh tourists visited the Valley (average 3000/day) . Assuming double occupancy we need 1500 rooms. I think the payback period for such project is less than 5 years. The entire system from private vehicles,tourists, boardings, tour guides etc can be put in place along with it . KP should share the pie of tourist inflow . Nationalist Indian tourists would anytime prefer staying with KPs.

[vishvak]

Hopefully, Hindus from PoJ&K will also be settled well and not presumed only to be cobblers and daily wage workers.

For the record, link

Finding a mention in President Pranab Mukherjee's joint address to Parlaiment, it was welcomed by Kashmiri pandit organisations which have been fighting for the lakhs of people from the community who fled the Valley in 1990 due to ethnic cleansing during militancy.

"Special efforts will be made to ensure that Kashmiri pandits return to the land of their ancestors with full dignity, security and assured livelihood," the President said while outlining the agenda of Modi government for the next five years.

The same article quotes

According to official data, 24,202 families migrated after militancy raised its ugly head in the Valley in 1990. A total number of 38,119 families are registered with the Jammu and Kashmir revenue and relief ministry till now.
..
The organisations, however, put the number of total displaced people anywhere between six to seven lakhs.
..
General secretary of All India Kashmiri Samaj (AIKS) Romesh Raina said finally the serious issue of displacement of Kashmiri pandits has got its rightful place in the mainstream politics of the country.

"Our request to the government would be that while framing the blueprint for the return and rehabilitation of the community, they should take into consideration the aspirations and needs of the displaced persons," he said.
..
General secretary of All India Kashmiri Samaj (AIKS) Romesh Raina said finally the serious issue of displacement of Kashmiri pandits has got its rightful place in the mainstream politics of the country.

"Our request to the government would be that while framing the blueprint for the return and rehabilitation of the community, they should take into consideration the aspirations and needs of the displaced persons," he said.

Any idea about NRI Kashmiri Pandits welcome.

It seems that a committee from center was sent to Kashmir during an unrest in 2010, however it refused to meet Kashmiri Pandits. Such people should be taken to task and sent to psychological analysis to see why do these people do that i.e. ignore some minorities.
link

“Indeed, the manner in which the All Party Delegation (APD) ignored the rights of Pandits in the Valley was manifested by their refusal to meet with Kashmiri Pandits still living in the Valley. Repeated demands by the Valley- based community were ignored,” he said.

Mr. Sazawal said all meetings took place in Jammu, “reinforcing non—Valley identity” of Kashmiri Pandits.

Bunch of pretenders with own selective outlook who should be made accountable and punished for selective ignorance.

What is the point in attending to only some and ignoring other minorities?

[shravanp]

Within existing legal framework (art 370), is it possible to split J&K into Kashmir valley, Jammu and Leh/Laddakh? I often read that if 370 is not repealed, trifurcation should go ahead.

[Anantha]

What is PDP, NC, and Cong form an alliance. They have the #s. Question is will the Cong go along with the PDP and NC traitors who want to give TSP a say in the valley.

They are already working on it. That is the Sampson plan of anti nationals and west. Only prob is they will have to face the wrath of Modi and his secret unknown plans such as trifurcation. Omar is in London to discuss this plan with his maibaaps.

[jamwal]

Like I said in another thread, Shias being not as pig-headed as Sunnis is mere hogwash. They have proven to be as Baki as Kashmiri Sunnis whenever they could. Right from 1947 till present.

The best option for India is to divide the state in to Jammu-Laddakh ( or Jammu and Laddakh) and Kashmir. Everyone is sick of Kashmiriyat.

[Tuvaluan]

Can someone explain how splitting J&K into J/K/Ladakh will help India's interests in retaining all of the state in the long run?

I Don't see why splitting J&K to three parts is a good idea -- the only outcome of that is to strengthen the hand of the separatists irrevocably against India. J&K and being together gives Jammu an opportunity to balance out the political power of the pro-paki jihadi kashmiri losers in the valley. This much seems obvious, so perhaps there is some other angle to this trifurcation that I am missing.

[CRamS]

I agree with TuvaluanJi. In the current set up, with J&K as one entity and perversly beating up on BJP for trifurcation puts the secessionists (I mean the soft ones on PDP, NC, and Cong) on the defensive, because while they enjoy the BJP bashing, should they advocate secession openly, they will look even more like a bunch of buffoons. But make no mistake about it, separatists, remote-controlled by Rawalpindi, will more than gladly accept trifurcation and an eventual separation of the valley from India. Thus, BJP'c current best bet is to compromise a tad with PDP and get a presence in the valley. This should throw the separatist scum bags into a tizzy. Plus, with support from people like Sajjad Lone and other new generation leaders, it will be tough for secessionists to implement their game plan. And of course, Indian army, BSF, CRPF etc should thwart any hanky panky by TSP.

[eklavya]

We don't need trifurcation; we need democratic reforms, more grassroots democracy, such that matters such as real estate are handled at the district level. This should see Jammu thriving. You get my drift fellow rakshaks

[Supratik]

You and I don't decide what Jammu and Ladakh wants. Jammuites and Ladakhis do. There is a long list of grievances against Kashmiris. Use google. Jammu wants separate statehood and Ladakh wants UT status. They are also against Art 370. That is why they voted BJP.

[eklavya]

Yes sir, we are on same page. Let Jammu and Ladakh decide which aspects of Article 370 apply to them. Plus, other powers they want devolved down to Jammu and Ladakh level. But no reason why this can't happen within one state.

[Tuvaluan]

"You and I don't decide what Jammu and Ladakh wants. Jammuites and Ladakhis do."

What kind of nonsense is this for a response to the question "how does trifurcation of the state help India's interest in the long run?" AFAIK, trifurcation of J&K is not on the cards as far as the current GoI is concerned, so the aspirations of Ladhakis, jammuites and martians are not relevant to that question. sheesh. An outline/road map how such actions help or hurt India's long term goals of reclaiming all of J&K is the question, unless the geniuses here think that losing Indian territory in J&K is in India's interests...in which case, never mind the question.

[Dipanker]

Reclaiming the whole J&K sounds good and all, but how do we get back POK and Gilgit+Baltitstan ? What plans we have to recover them?

[RajeshA]

Reclaiming the whole J&K sounds good and all, but how do we get back POK and Gilgit+Baltitstan ? What plans we have to recover them?

Just walk in and take it, when Pakistani Army is made to look at Baluchis, Pushtuns and Sindhis.

[Tuvaluan]

"Reclaiming the whole J&K sounds good and all, but how do we get back POK and Gilgit+Baltitstan ? What plans we have to recover them?"

That is a different question that what I am asking -- and just because the path is not clear today does not mean it won't become clear down the line. The question I have asked is how does trifurcation help with retaining a political hold of the parts of J&K in India's control currently, if it makes the pro-paki/pro-independence parties get a strangehold on the political narratives of that state.

[RajeshA]

Tuvuluan ji,

1) One should try to allocate maximum area within J&K to Jammu and Ladakh, leaving a very small Kashmir Valley.

2) In the next round, one can bifurcate even that Kashmir Valley making contiguous space for a Panun Kashmir for Kashmiri Pandits. That decreases the area under Kashmiri Muslims even further. In all the rest of the areas there would be no Article 370.

3) When those areas have been well integrated with rest of India, then one can take away Article 35A as well due to the unconstitutional way in which it was put in, which barred people from other states to settle in J&K. This would allow everybody to start shifting to Kashmir Valley (Mini-K).

[shravanp]

AFAIK, Kashmir valley depends on Jammu for agricutural products/food and Leh/Laddakh for water. With those two carved out as seperate states/entities, Kashmir valley can shout azaadi as much as they want and we will see to that how can they survive.

[Tuvaluan]

"1) One should try to allocate maximum area within J&K to Jammu and Ladakh, leaving a very small Kashmir Valley. "

RajeshA, Why? I Fail to understand the goal here? Are you saying that paki takeover of the valley is inevitable? If not, why provide victory to the pak-jihadi majority in the valley? Creating new independent states assemblies out of J&K is handing over a political victory to the secessionist crowd, is it not? I fail to see why that is considered part of the "solution" here. It is not like the militants and terrorists will only stick to the valley and not continue operating in the newly formed states.

"2) In the next round, one can bifurcate even that Kashmir Valley making contiguous space for a Panun Kashmir for Kashmiri Pandits. That decreases the area under Kashmiri Muslims even further. In all the rest of the areas there would be no Article 370."

But the flip side here is that you now have an entire state that is under the 100% control pro-paki/pro-secession crowd? I fail to see how that is a positive thing, unless the valley falling to the jihadis is being considered as an inevitability. So if I understand the argument here, it is that trifurcation will allow removal of Article 370 in parts outside the valley, and isolate the valley, but that also means the valley is now permanently lost to the secessionists, and I don't your point 3 following in reality if this happens.

"3) When those areas have been well integrated with rest of India, then one can take away Article 35A as well due to the unconstitutional way in which it was put in, which barred people from other states to settle in J&K. This would allow everybody to start shifting to Kashmir Valley (Mini-K)."

I think Leh and Jammu already are integrated with India, so there is not much that needs to be done. OTOH, the pakis are not about to stop infiltrating terrorists into Jammu even after trifurcation. So nothing changes on the ground, since the army's presence would be required to keep a lid on the paki terrorists, or so it seems.