J&K News and Discussion-2011

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Tuvaluan
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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Tuvaluan » 30 Dec 2014 03:13

"1) One should try to allocate maximum area within J&K to Jammu and Ladakh, leaving a very small Kashmir Valley. "

RajeshA, Why? I Fail to understand the goal here? Are you saying that paki takeover of the valley is inevitable? If not, why provide victory to the pak-jihadi majority in the valley? Creating new independent states assemblies out of J&K is handing over a political victory to the secessionist crowd, is it not? I fail to see why that is considered part of the "solution" here. It is not like the militants and terrorists will only stick to the valley and not continue operating in the newly formed states.

"2) In the next round, one can bifurcate even that Kashmir Valley making contiguous space for a Panun Kashmir for Kashmiri Pandits. That decreases the area under Kashmiri Muslims even further. In all the rest of the areas there would be no Article 370."

But the flip side here is that you now have an entire state that is under the 100% control pro-paki/pro-secession crowd? I fail to see how that is a positive thing, unless the valley falling to the jihadis is being considered as an inevitability. So if I understand the argument here, it is that trifurcation will allow removal of Article 370 in parts outside the valley, and isolate the valley, but that also means the valley is now permanently lost to the secessionists, and I don't your point 3 following in reality if this happens.

"3) When those areas have been well integrated with rest of India, then one can take away Article 35A as well due to the unconstitutional way in which it was put in, which barred people from other states to settle in J&K. This would allow everybody to start shifting to Kashmir Valley (Mini-K)."

I think Leh and Jammu already are integrated with India, so there is not much that needs to be done. OTOH, the pakis are not about to stop infiltrating terrorists into Jammu even after trifurcation. So nothing changes on the ground, since the army's presence would be required to keep a lid on the paki terrorists, or so it seems.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Tuvaluan » 30 Dec 2014 03:19

RajeshA, If the goal here is to undercut the jihadi crowd in kashmir by reducing their disproportional representation in the J&K assembly via trifurcation, that seems reasonable. Though it would mean that this degraded J&K assembly would hold out on doing anything constructive or positive with the central govt. forever. I am not sure that helps the long-term picture and probably hurts it.

One other positive of trifurcation is possibly that Jammu and Ladakh can rollback shariat laws in most parts of the state excluding the valley, though keeping those laws in place could be useful for political union with the PoK parts in the short/medium term.

http://www.outlookindia.com/news/articl ... mir/449812

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby RajeshA » 30 Dec 2014 03:23

Tuvuluan ji,

I don't consider Kashmir Valley "lost" to the Paki Jihadis. I don't even consider Pakistan "lost" to Islamists for ever.

But I do think is that it is is an uphill climb, and one should move up conquering one step at a time. It should be "consolidate, conquer, consolidate, conquer"! Conquering Jammu and Ladakh means bringing them completely under saffron fever, WITHOUT any chance of relapse into the Islamist's lap!

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Tuvaluan » 30 Dec 2014 03:40

RajeshA:"I don't consider Kashmir Valley "lost" to the Paki Jihadis. I don't even consider Pakistan "lost" to Islamists for ever."

RajeshA, I fail to see how you can boldly claim that losing an entire state politically to secessionists with no chance of rolling back that change does not amount to losing a state -- it certainly means losing out PoK to pakistan for ever.

Not sure what you mean with respect to pakistan not being lost to islamists for ever? Do you mean the Islamists will one day grow a brain and become all reasonable? Any reason why they would find the impetus to change? Of course, if you mean that in the "in the long run, we are all dead" kind of way, then I guess I have to agree.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby RajeshA » 30 Dec 2014 03:54

Tuvaluan wrote:RajeshA:"I don't consider Kashmir Valley "lost" to the Paki Jihadis. I don't even consider Pakistan "lost" to Islamists for ever."

RajeshA, I fail to see how you can boldly claim that losing an entire state politically to secessionists with no chance of rolling back that change does not amount to losing a state -- it certainly means losing out PoK to pakistan for ever.


Why do we say, not being able to roll back! I don't want Kashmir Valley to have a border with Pakistan. Let a military buffer and Panun Kashmir block that. Kashmir Valley under KM rule simply becomes a ghetto within India. Yes it would be politically same as Pakistan, but at some convenient time for us, we can put Governor's Rule there, and mess around with demographics. Yes there would be resistance and violence, but that would be expected.

At the moment India is only keeping back the Jihadi deluge using our forces! This we are doing for a whole big J&K state, because probably the local police may not be fully assisting pro-Indian forces. We have to shrink this space of possible instability, and bring the rest in into Indian mainstream.

The more we can consolidate areas within J&K into politically stable and progressive areas, the more soldiers we have at our disposal to take on the Islamic militants in their ghettos.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Prem » 30 Dec 2014 04:28

If making Barhat Panum Kashmir bring the valley under Jihadi crowd then its important to separate and remove the young people from valley before they get Jihadi disease. The future of Valley will depend on this one single factor to eliminate even the remotest chance of facing this treachery again. The precautionary measures can be put in place within few years before granting them the Vish wish.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Supratik » 30 Dec 2014 11:16

I think Rajesh has already put forth elegantly the benefits of trifurcation. To add the KMs right now control the narrative of J&K. They use their demographic advantage in the valley to dominate the whole state. The impression is that the whole state wants to secede. The Kashmir valley is actually a very small area. Trifurcate the state and if the KMs want autonomy renegotiate autonomy with them which does not include things like not allowing other Indians to move to the valley. Ofcourse they are going to resist but GOI is much more powerful entity. So if they wish they can give it a take it or leave it scenario. Further, from what I have gathered the people of Jammu and Ladakh have complaints that Kashmiris dominate everything in the state including education and jobs and police. Now they have regional councils but lack of development is a big issue. Jammu and Ladakh wants to integrate further with rest of India. We should not deny them that opportunity.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Vikas » 30 Dec 2014 13:11

What is the benefit of keeping J&K as single state except for making people from Jammu and Ladhakh by subsidizing good life of KM by sacrificing their own future.
The advantage of splitting state in 4 parts is to reduce the area of influence of KM within the valley and also giving voice to patriotic people of J&K. So we will have a intensely Pro-Pak denizens of the valley but whose claim it is that they already are not.
Once you have KM cut off from Pakistan by creating 3 more states around Valley, you will have cut off direct contact of Pakis with Pro-Pak elements in valley.

Once J&K is split, there is no longer any J&K for GoI or Pakis to discuss anymore :)

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby kmkraoind » 30 Dec 2014 14:06

Rs 40 Lakh flat for Kashmiri Pandits in Srinagar

Jingo is very happy and posting in full.

NEW DELHI: Kashmiri Pandits would be provided with "good quality" 1,000 apartments built at a cost of Rs 40 lakh each near Srinagar, a far cry from the shabby two-room transit accommodation provided to them in Jammu, to motivate them to return to J&K.

The government is also reaching out to the other refugees in J&K, the 5764 families who migrated from West Pakistan to Jammu Division and still do not have voting rights in the State Assembly though they have the same in the Parliamentary elections. A senior Home Ministry official said a letter has recently been sent to the state to expedite the process of granting these persons the Permanent Resident Right in J&K so that they can vote in the next state elections, buy property in the state and get recruited to state services and jobs.

"The Kashmiri Pandits were quite unhappy with the two room tenements built for them near Jammu which were only meant to be transit accommodation. Learning from that experience, the new apartments will be of a good quality and each will cost Rs 40 lakhs. The NBCC has approved the architecture and design of the said flats and will construct the same," the official said. Jobs with monthly salaries up to Rs 30,000 and an Rs 10 lakh grant for those who want to rebuild their damaged houses is also a part of the package. "Rs 500 crore was provided in this year's budget for rehabilitation of Kashmiri Pandits. bulk of it will be spent on building the new 1000 flats near Srinagar," the official said.


Image

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby schinnas » 30 Dec 2014 14:36

Bifurcating / trifurcating J&K is in a reminiscent of two nation theory. Short term tactical considerations aside, I strongly oppose that. For millenniums, India has stood for the principle of unity in diversity. Pakistan was created on the premise that people following different paths cannot co-exist. While I dont deny that it is challenging to work with fundamentalist KMs, that is the challenge that India needs to work out. Otherwise it would be a sign that our 7000 old civilization wouldn't have much to offer to the world any more.

Our founding fathers such as Sri Aurobindo and Swami Vivekananda were clear that for all problems facing India, India should find solutions based on its civilizational strengths. Non-violence struggle, sathyagraha as a mechanism of protest, concept of sustainable development, ecology, environmentalism, etc., were rooted in our civilizational ethos and have been adopted all over the world in different ways even if we as a nation do not follow many of these anymore. Similarly, only India can show the world how to deal with and conquer religious fundamentalism and extremism. It will be a painful path, but we have to search for and find Dharmic solutions.. not merely short term chanakiyan tactics.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby jamwal » 30 Dec 2014 15:09

Jammu as a whole voted for a non-Kashmiri regime on an unprecedented scale. But even this show is useless as power is concentrated in hands of Kashmiri muslims which they don't deserve ethically and legally. Non-muslims (read non-kashmiris) can't get any jobs as the crony Kashmiris steal everything. Even in Jammu offices, an overwhelming number of staff is Kashmiri. If and when any non-Kashmiri gets posted in Kashmir, the locals there gang up against them and put hurdles in their careers by discrimination, threats and intimidation.

Jammu has bigger area, pays more taxes, almost same population, but Kashmir gets all the money, jobs disproportional to it's size and worth. If the state can't be divided, do delimitation and get each part of state assembly seats proportionate to their size and influence. Otherwise you will keep on pumping money in to the state and it will go to only the traitorous Kashmiri muslims while people of Jammu and Laddakh who actually support India will keep on suffering.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Supratik » 30 Dec 2014 15:22

Thats correct. Thats what I have been hearing from non-KMs of J&K. I think we shouldn't get emotional about this things like schinnas.
This a strat forum and there is not much scope for emotions in strategy.

@jamwal,

I don't think delimitation will help Jammu as according to 2011 census Kashmir districts have more population and the gap (diff in growth %) is also increasing.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Hariprasad » 30 Dec 2014 15:28

Why Laddakh didn't vote BJP ? What is the story there ...

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Yagnasri » 30 Dec 2014 15:31

May be very weak organisation.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby ravip » 30 Dec 2014 16:34

Delimitation cannot be done until 2061. The J&k assembly passed resolution saying so and the SC upheld when it was challenged by panthers party.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby vishvak » 30 Dec 2014 18:02

Supratik wrote:Thats correct. Thats what I have been hearing from non-KMs of J&K. I think we shouldn't get emotional about this things like schinnas.
This a strat forum and there is not much scope for emotions in strategy.

@jamwal,

I don't think delimitation will help Jammu as according to 2011 census Kashmir districts have more population and the gap (diff in growth %) is also increasing.

I think we can be humane to every concerned party once things turn normal. It is wrong to judge goodness by how people treat unfairness. I think people of Jammu and Ladakh have no emotional luggage which shows straightforward and humane behavior in general. Exceptions only prove and reinforce the rule. Lets not run with social guilt before things become/made fair for and by all concerned parties.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby SanjayC » 30 Dec 2014 18:29

ravip wrote:Delimitation cannot be done until 2061. The J&k assembly passed resolution saying so and the SC upheld when it was challenged by panthers party.


Is this a joke? Blame that Nehru twat for this situation.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby RajeshA » 30 Dec 2014 18:41

Hariprasad wrote:Why Laddakh didn't vote BJP ? What is the story there ...


BJP should try and build a Ladakh regional party consisting of the Congress MLAs from Ladakh, who can decide and vote independently of Congress High Command!

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby manjgu » 30 Dec 2014 20:05

hariprasad...the assembly elections are fought differently from central elections. the BJP didnt have good candidates... the congi candidates have for ages doled out benefits to locals... assembly election are very localised affairs..

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Tuvaluan » 30 Dec 2014 20:08

RajeshA, your reasons for partitioning J&K have some issues, IMO.

1) Pakistan has already started calling Jammu border the "working border" so tripartitioning is not going to reduce the army's job on the ground w.r.t. defending against Pakis.

2) Pakistan is tearing apart at the seams and the so-called paki govt./army will no longer have the werewithal to think about anything more than their survival if the govt.-owned terrorist groups have a sour relationship down the line. This is exactly the wrong time to give up on PoK, which is essentially what the tripartition plan does, IMO (mostly because it works against the idea of a unified J&K state under indian control down the line, long term).

Defanging groups like NC and PDP by removing their political power seems like a legitimate ploy, but my fear is that it may end up creating issues if the army has to operate in three different Indian states instead of one state, like it is now. Just a thought.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby CRamS » 30 Dec 2014 20:52

Guys, the following report coming from Sheela's butt, I can't vouch for its veracity, but she claims that the BJP PDP deal did not materilzie because BJP wanted the first stint as CM, while Mufti insited he have a first go

http://www.rediff.com/news/special/excl ... 141230.htm

Assuming for the moment that there is some truth in this, whats the game going on? What advantage would BJP gain by going first. As per the report, Mufti is worried that BJP won't honor the deal after 3 years, and hence he wants to go first. Moreover, can anybody read the underlying signals if any that Mufti is getting from Rawalpindi for this demand of his?

Also, last night I heard on TimesNow that Mufti was floating another idea. He wanted a grand coalition where be PDP is the king, i.e., he is CM for entire term of 6 years with outside support from both BJP and Cong. According to the TimesNow reporter, Navika something, Mufti supposedly cobbled this idea as a response to TSP. Its an unworkable proposition IMO: BJP & Cong are not like Dems and Reps in the US where its is "us" against "them" no matter what internal differences they have. Cong would rather have the valley join TSP than defend it against TSP by collaborating with BJP; thats the level of hatred they (Sonia & Co) have or BJP.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Supratik » 30 Dec 2014 22:37

There are a lot of differences between various constituents of the entire J&K. Language - Ladakhi and Balti are Tibetan, Jammu both IOK and AJK are close to Punjabi (with other languages like Gurjari), Kashmiri and Shina (Gilgit agency) are Dardic. Ethnicity and religion are other differences. There is no point in putting them together. That dividing J&K is going to damage chances in POK is a specious arguement - without merit. However, it is useful to give some form of autonomy to the Kashmir valley. This will strengthen the case of Baltistan and Gilgit agency being also given autonomy if at some point for whatever reason they join the Indian union. AJK is basically western Jammu - so it will reintegrate with Jammu.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby chetak » 30 Dec 2014 22:42

CRamS wrote:Guys, the following report coming from Sheela's butt, I can't vouch for its veracity, but she claims that the BJP PDP deal did not materilzie because BJP wanted the first stint as CM, while Mufti insited he have a first go

http://www.rediff.com/news/special/excl ... 141230.htm

Assuming for the moment that there is some truth in this, whats the game going on? What advantage would BJP gain by going first. As per the report, Mufti is worried that BJP won't honor the deal after 3 years, and hence he wants to go first. Moreover, can anybody read the underlying signals if any that Mufti is getting from Rawalpindi for this demand of his?

Also, last night I heard on TimesNow that Mufti was floating another idea. He wanted a grand coalition where be PDP is the king, i.e., he is CM for entire term of 6 years with outside support from both BJP and Cong. According to the TimesNow reporter, Navika something, Mufti supposedly cobbled this idea as a response to TSP. Its an unworkable proposition IMO: BJP & Cong are not like Dems and Reps in the US where its is "us" against "them" no matter what internal differences they have. Cong would rather have the valley join TSP than defend it against TSP by collaborating with BJP; thats the level of hatred they (Sonia & Co) have or BJP.


The second term is the dangerous one because its where the incumbent from the first term wants to continue to hang on to power and not let go. Failing all efforts to hang on, the "first" CMs party usually pulls the plug to stymie the second CMs turn at the gaddi. Its exactly what deva gowda's son, HDK did to the BJP in karnataka, no?? The second term is like a poisoned pill.

Happened too many times to in the past and essentially the parties do not trust each other. In the case of PDP, they would have been planning to dump the BJP end of the first term and the valley muslims would have "rewarded" them for the taqiyya. The massive loss of face for the BJP would have been an added bonus for a lot of muslims, not just the ones in the valley even in the plains and across the border.

BJP is very right in asking for the first go. After all, they hold the trump cards. PDP will not let them govern J&K second term even if it is their (BJP's) term.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Tuvaluan » 31 Dec 2014 03:13

Supratik:"There is no point in putting them together. That dividing J&K is going to damage chances in POK is a specious arguement - without merit. "

If you make the same argument about the rest of India, it amounts to sheer nonsense. I mean, all of India is diverse, and the current division of states based on language was done because of the political leadership of the time was put under pressure back in the 50s. PoK is part of J&K and if PoK was so irrelevant and the arguments considering it are "specious", perhaps someone who claims to know better can explain why the world powers have been working so hard for India not to have a border with Afghanisthan, as it would if PoK was reclaimed. Just handwaving and proclaiming "this is useless and that is specious" offers no explanation for why it is being considered useless. It maybe useless but I think that just stating it is so is insufficient.

I think analysis that claims the PoK denizens being barbarians who can never join India etc. appear rooted in prejudice rather than strategy. especially if you consider that the mindset of the people changed over a few decades and no reason why people cannot be changed back. This seems possible considering current reports from gilgit/baltistan/balawareistan that indicate widespread unrest in those areas that is being suppressed brutally. Trifurcation of the state does little to actually fix the pakistani threat to the state -- drawing new boundaries might help political parties in India, but one is unable to see how that helps India defend that territory better.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby RajeshA » 31 Dec 2014 03:29

Tuvaluan ji,

perhaps one can set up some common framework for the three states (Jammu, Ladakh and Kashmir), such as a common Governor, or a common Upper House, or a common High Court in order to retain historical claims on all of J&K, including the areas occupied by Pakistan and China.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Supratik » 31 Dec 2014 17:14

@tuvalan

I already showed that there is a lot of difference between various constituents of J&K. There is no point in putting them together. We can't even have Tamils and Telegus or Marathis and Gujratis in the same state. We should not make the demands of people of Jammu and Ladakh hostage to POK. I don't think there is any co-relation between the two. Also we have not been able to make any headway in POK over the last 70 yrs for various reasons. POK joining India is currently only a hypothetical scenario.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Shanmukh » 31 Dec 2014 17:26

Tuvaluan Thalaivare,
The people of PoK hate Pakistan, but is there any evidence they want to join India?Or do they just use India as a bargaining tool against the Pakjabi Army? Sure, they are being screwed, but enemy's enemy is just that. No point making him a friend, unless he is really one. One experience of Bangladesh should show that.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby vishvak » 31 Dec 2014 17:37

If pakis are looking at making strategic depth in Afghanistan, then we should give them some jhapads and make sure we have key areas in PoK under our control. Heck we should get PoK in our hand when the uniform jihadis are busy. That way we can also make future attacks on the Indian border land farther away from barbarians who want to terrorize Indians across the border.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby jamwal » 01 Jan 2015 16:20

There is nothing against different people living together in a same city/state/country. Ethnicity should be the last reason for division. But in current circumstances, the anti-Indians have control of the state while Indians are suffering. I wish division of state so that non-Kashmiris are free of Kashmiri-Muslim hegemony.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby K Mehta » 02 Jan 2015 09:00

Are there no shia leaders in JK?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby gandharva » 02 Jan 2015 22:19


vishvak
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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby vishvak » 02 Jan 2015 22:55

gandharva wrote:[youtube=>]kgFPt1FqulE[/<=youtube]

Should not the lady teachers face arrests for such explosive propaganda?

But then in India anything goes for pseudo seculars.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby member_28939 » 03 Jan 2015 15:39

Image

श्रीनगर। पाकिस्तानी सेना ने शुक्रवार रात को जम्मू-कश्मीर के कठुआ और सांबा जिले में सीमा के पास के गांवों और बॉर्डर पर स्थित 13 भारतीय चौकियों को निशाना बनाया है। ताजा जानकारी के मुताबिक पाक सेना की फायरिंग में एक भारतीय नागरिक की मौत हो गई और नौ अन्य घायल हो गए। पाकिस्तानी सेना ने रातभर अंतरराष्ट्रीय सीमा पर गोलिया बरसाई हैं और गोले दागे हैं। एक बीएसएफ अधिकारी के मुताबिक पाकिस्तानी सेना ने शुक्रवार रात करीब 11 बजे अंतरराष्ट्रीय सीमा पर सिविल एरिया और बीएसएफ की चौकियों को निशाना बनाना शुरू किया। उसके बाद रातभर भारतीय सीमा पर फायरिंग करते रहे।
See more at: http://www.patrika.com/news/cease-fire- ... ir/1067542

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby archan » 03 Jan 2015 16:04

Mr. Saini,
Your zeal in promoting your publication (patrika) is noted. We have had another person try that before for this paper. While you are welcome to post and participate, anything non-English has to be accompanied with some sort of translation or perspective in English because not all members know any single Indian language. English, like most of the internet, is the medium of this forum.
Second, while it is OK to post relevant links from time to time, blatant commercial promotion will not be looked favorably at.

Thanks.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Anantha » 04 Jan 2015 21:24

There are rumors that Yasin malik has died in Srinagar. Does any one has any confirmation?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Dipanker » 04 Jan 2015 21:50

^ GreaterKashmir newspaper says it is just a rumor.

http://greaterkashmir.com/ShowStoryLate ... ewsID=6749

Added Later: This is a separatists mouthpiece newspaper since most of the Oped's are by separatists advocates.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Prem » 06 Jan 2015 23:36

Dr. Manish Kumar ‏@DrManishKumar1
J&K Govt Formation on 14th Jan: PDP's Mufti Sayeed will be the Next CM and BJP will have Deputy CM and 5 Ministry. PDP will have 6 Ministers

UlanBatori
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Posts: 11397
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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Jan 2015 00:58

What's with the '10,000 civilians flee on Indian side' stories? IA has ordered evacuation of villages, preparatory to ????????

Tea in RYK? Samosas in Muzzafarabad? Surely NaMo & Co haven't gone pacifist suddenly?

chetak
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Posts: 19315
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby chetak » 07 Jan 2015 07:19

Anantha wrote:There are rumors that Yasin malik has died in Srinagar. Does any one has any confirmation?


polonium again??

Arjun
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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Arjun » 07 Jan 2015 08:57

10,000 Flee Homes Near Border in Jammu and Kashmir as Pakistani Shelling Continues

All those displaced from Jammu should be resettled in Kashmir without delay by the govt. This is a humanitarian crisis !


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