J&K News and Discussion-2011

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby vina » 14 Mar 2011 20:06

ManishH wrote: convent educated.


Really? Since when were women allowed to serve in the Indian Army in such roles?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby disha » 14 Mar 2011 20:47

somnath wrote:^^^Not sure students from J&K have a "quota" in unis across the country...Thats only for NE AFAIK..


^Wrong.

There is even bigger quota for Kashmir, Jammu & Ladakh. Goes on the ratio of 3:2:1 within Kashmir, Jammu and ladakh respectively. And they do not get filled. The quota is part of the university system and all universities have it, deep down in the south too. It does rankle that the seats not get used and neither there is reciprocity back into J & K.

IMHO KMs are a spoilt lot, and has developed the psychology of spoiled brats. All it requires is a firm handling and of course some exposure to other's problems so they develop some empathy, currently they do not have that.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby disha » 14 Mar 2011 20:55

menon s wrote:Dear Sir, In our part of the country quality education, is given by convent schools.


Err.. you mean sex education?

I think that the education we had in those convents were secular. I meant that Kashmiri boys should be given, that same secular education, in schools across India, so that we develop, children, who understand, what India is all about, in a safe and sound environment rather than in the valley and other parts of Kashmir.


Why spoil the lives of those poor boys (and girls)? They will be scarred for life in those convents., safe and sound environment for convent voyeurs.

Sir, please get a reality check., you are clearly getting delusional. Plucking kids from their familiar environment however dangerous *you* may feel and putting them into a different one without parental/familial support is far more dangerous. If KMs in KV want to improve their lot, they will not go inculcating kids into stone throwing, but into non-madrassa type higher education and look at providing them job opportunities.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby menon s » 14 Mar 2011 21:26

i only wanted poor kids from Kashmir, to study in secular schools, who i thought in my limited intelligence would be happy in convents. i did not mention KV`s because,in my personal experience, that was for central govt folks and my dad was a shopkeeper , a poor guy, with zero education or a central gov job! the convent was subsidized, never asked my religious affiliation, and was cheap.
look at the responses i get , isnt it why? even Neaplis r laughing at us?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Sanku » 14 Mar 2011 22:03

menon s wrote: even Neaplis r laughing at us?


Not us, but yes they would laugh at you quite probably. Meanwhile given the standard of language in your posts, you really should not be talking about how Convent education, that is, if you some how want to build them up.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Mahendra » 14 Mar 2011 22:25

One starts playing the victim when all the concocted stories start falling apart.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby JE Menon » 15 Mar 2011 00:22

This discussion has gone on long enough on this thread... Please revert to regular programming.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby jamwal » 15 Mar 2011 00:32

disha wrote:
somnath wrote:^^^Not sure students from J&K have a "quota" in unis across the country...Thats only for NE AFAIK..


^Wrong.

There is even bigger quota for Kashmir, Jammu & Ladakh. Goes on the ratio of 3:2:1 within Kashmir, Jammu and ladakh respectively. And they do not get filled. The quota is part of the university system and all universities have it, deep down in the south too. It does rankle that the seats not get used and neither there is reciprocity back into J & K.

IMHO KMs are a spoilt lot, and has developed the psychology of spoiled brats. All it requires is a firm handling and of course some exposure to other's problems so they develop some empathy, currently they do not have that.



AFAIK, there is no quota for Jammu. At least, I wasn't eligible for any when I was searching for colleges. Or may be I didn't look hard enough :oops:

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby brihaspati » 15 Mar 2011 02:33

menon s wrote:Dear Sir, In our part of the country quality education, is given by convent schools. I think that the education we had in those convents were secular. I meant that Kashmiri boys should be given, that same secular education, in schools across India, so that we develop, children, who understand, what India is all about, in a safe and sound environment rather than in the valley and other parts of Kashmir.

And Ah! on more thing, by secular education, i mean, respect to all faiths, and that faith should not interfere with polity. I know ur greviances against prosteylising in Christianity, and thats something i cannot do anything about it, because im not one.


You have not yet given your definition of what you mean by a "fascist" and then "fascism based on religion". This is relevant for the discussion on J&K. If you think it is "fascism" that is going on in J&K and you show how that fascism is based on "faith" - then that has some consequences for what needs to be done in that state. Are you sure you would still like to claim that "fascists" can be "re-educated"?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby menon s » 15 Mar 2011 08:47

Summer of Discontent; By Amitabh Mattoo.
In Harvard International Review.
http://hir.harvard.edu/india-in-transit ... t?page=0,2

It was a mistake also to view the elections as signaling a return to business-as-usual politics of the state and as obviating the need for a special and more imaginative approach. The triumph of democracy tragically became a moment of triumphalism for the New Delhi establishment. Had it acted in a statesmanlike fashion, New Delhi would have demonstrated a willingness to reward participation in the democratic process and not be seen as capitulating to extra-constitutional pressure. Instead, there was total inertia. For nearly six months, and admittedly also because of other priorities, including the general election, Kashmir was no longer on the agenda, not even at the margins. What was not recognized was the nature of the new transformative politics in Kashmir: many Kashmiris were seizing every opportunity to achieve peaceful change, from the politics of the street to the politics of the ballot. And if the ballot did not fulfill its promise, the people would return to the streets—as they well did.


Prime Minister Manmohan Singh himself said in his opening remarks at the Roundtable Conference on Jammu and Kashmir on February 25, 2006: “Security is freedom from fear and this is what we want to achieve. We want the people of Jammu and Kashmir to be free from all fears about their future. It is only this sense of comprehensive security, within a framework of good governance that can really empower the people.”


There is no contradiction between wanting Kashmir to be part of the national mainstream and the state’s desire for autonomous self-governance.



The battle, therefore, to win back the hearts and minds of the Kashmiri people is critical not just for the recovery of ideals that inspired nationhood, but is central to the war against obscurantism and fundamentalism.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Manny » 15 Mar 2011 09:23

Every state in India is autonomous in many ways. J&K is more autonomous already and this needs to stop.

Anyone in India, whether they are Muslims, Bengalies or Mallus or whatever, are free to leave the country if they don't care to participate in the democratic republic and do their civic duty as citizens.

The ones who collude with enemy nations such as Pakistan and China while remaining in the nation should be tried and if found guilty shot down like the mangie dogs they are.

What is so hard to understand that? Any problem with that?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby menon s » 15 Mar 2011 09:44

People like Amitabh Matto or Siddharth kak are not separatists, neither are they WKK, so please lets hear them out, actively discuss, things, put forward from a different angle. One is free to accept it or reject it.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby nachiket » 15 Mar 2011 09:51

menon s wrote:
There is no contradiction between wanting Kashmir to be part of the national mainstream and the state’s desire for autonomous self-governance.




BS of the smelliest variety. There is a huge contradiction. If Kashmiris want to be a part of the mainstream, they have to get ready to be treated like any other citizens of India. So the level of autonomy/self governance WILL be limited to what is provided to other states of the union as per our constitution (without Article 370). This sense of entitlement the Kashmiris seem to share with our neighbors to the west has to go.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Sachin » 15 Mar 2011 10:02

nachiket wrote: If Kashmiris want to be a part of the mainstream, they have to get ready to be treated like any other citizens of India.

I am sure that this is not the first time we at BR has raised this point. The freeloading mentality of the Kashmiris need to go. There is no unique problem for the Kashmiris, which any other common man in India does not face. If these folks wants to sit in their shikharas and house boats and expects the rest of the tax payers to feed them day in and day out, it is this mentality which needs to go. Our politicians are squarely to be blamed for creating this sort of cheap mentality among the Kashmiris, and sooner or later we would have to change it.

It is surprising that none of the intellectuals, Kashmiri supporters and people who ask others to view an "alternate view point" have mentioned about this simple case. That is Kashmiris and their sense of entitlement.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Vikas » 15 Mar 2011 10:07

I am not sure if KM's really want to be part of mainstream. Unfortunately GoI in its grand wisdom has never pulled the plug on this undesirable behavior.
More often then not, they have been treated with kid gloves.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Manny » 15 Mar 2011 10:23

I think the Indian govt should stop the Hudj subsidies and provide for a one way ticket for anyone from India who wants to go to Pakistan.

IF you don't like it, LEAVE (my preference for you) or vote for your representative to change things like everyone else in India do. These are the only two alternative you have. Duh! effin morons!

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby ManishH » 15 Mar 2011 14:03

menon s wrote:Summer of Discontent; By Amitabh Mattoo.
In Harvard International Review.
http://hir.harvard.edu/india-in-transit ... t?page=0,2

The battle, therefore, to win back the hearts and minds of the Kashmiri people is critical not just for the recovery of ideals that inspired nationhood, but is central to the war against obscurantism and fundamentalism.


What I don't like about the article is it ascribes separatism only to "people's discontent with policy makers". Whereas in J&K, separatism is also rooted in religious fundamentalism fanned by foreign intervention, the chief protagonists of that obscurantism is Hurriyat.

Another thing that I don't like about the article is it totally fails to recognize that refugees from the valley is gross injustice that needs to be fixed. Discontent of loyalists is a much greater problem than discontent of secessionists. From my POV, if KMs don't show signs of loyalty to the state in very near term, the state is duty-bound to repatriate loyalists into the valley.

What I do like about the article is that it stresses the importance of winning over youth. I think KM community is not one monolithic bloc, there is a significant generation gap between hurriyat's chiefs and the youth (don't think of youth as just the urban stone pelters we see on TV, but also the 1000s that turn up for army/police recruitment rallies). The youth are pragmatic enough to worry about their future and will adopt a loyalist attitude given good education and gainful employment.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby rkirankr » 15 Mar 2011 15:11

GOI must say that if at all there is a plebiscite, then the whole of India must participate in it and not just kashmiris. Whatever happens to that part of the country affects others too. That should shut up few voices

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby menon s » 15 Mar 2011 16:39

I think this book is a must read for all studying the problem in JandK state.

Crisis in Kashmir, portents of War, hopes for peace, written by Sumit Ganguly.

Gangulys central argument is that, the insurgency can be explained by the interlinked process of political mobilization and institutional decay. In an attempt to woo the citizens of India`s only Muslim majority state, the national government drastically, helped expand literacy, media and higher education. These processes produced a generation of Kashmiri`s who were politically knowledgeable and sophisticated. Simultaneously, the national government in New Delhi, fearful of the potential secessionist proclivities amongst Kashmiri`s systematically stultified the development of political institutions in the state. Unable to express dissent in a institutional context, this new generation of Kashmiri`s resorted to violence. The ISI and its JEI, ilk further exploited the situation, on communal lines


This book was written in 1993. After that, an new generation, of Kashmiri youth have also come of age. All they know about India is tainted by the violence they have seen, and also by the toxic narratives of Jamaat islami, and ******** like Geelani, who have their own broth to cook, and their allegiances in Pakistan. But even with all that , not all KM`s are with Geelani or the Huriyat. It would be our mistake, if we consider all Kashmiri Muslims as fundamentalists and terrorists, without understanding the plight that they are going through. For rest of us sitting in the rest of the country, we can say that all this misfortune is because of their prior generation.But to them, who are facing that reality, it is difficult and will only widen the distance that has already crept up.

Faultline Kashmir is also a good book, written by Christopher Thomas.

He talks about Abdullah, being funded by Pakistan, after 1953.
Thomas even claims, based on his interview with Abdullah's former press advisor Amin Pandit, that the Sher-e-Kashmir received substantial Pakistani funding after his dismissal in 1953. Said Pandit: "Messages would arrive [that] so many eggs had been sent." An "egg" meant 100,000 rupees.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Sachin » 15 Mar 2011 16:59

menon s wrote:After that, an new generation, of Kashmiri youth have also come of age. All they know about India is tainted by the violence they have seen

Re: the bolded part. This comes back to the question many have raised in a couple of posts. How much efforts have been taken by these people to assimilate with the rest of India, or join the Indian mainstream? Why is it that the rest of the country should continue to provide them with freebies, while these Kashmiri youth does not take any efforts to join the Indian mainstream. If you ask me Kashmiris see only the violence prone India, because they have not taken any major pains to assimilate with the rest of the country. The nation did a big mistake of providing them freebies, and we have a society who will bad-mouth, but still expects the freebies.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby menon s » 15 Mar 2011 17:14

What if they are beset with fear. Fear of Army, fear of police, fear of Militants! We are not talking about normal people. We are talking about people who are living under threat from everyone, ever since they were children. I was reading about a Kashmiri girl who had come to Delhi on Diwali. when the crackers exploded (of course she has seen no Diwali in her lifetime) , she felt that a shoot out was in progress.That fear is what that corrodes the psyche.

im quoting from Amitabh matto article on stone throwers.

"...this radicalization has been caused by multiple factors, but above all by a sense of hopelessness. This is a generation that has seen suffering, killings, political uncertainty, and has had to remain sequestered in their homes for great lengths of time. A generation that has witnessed often a daily tragedy, seen no light at the end of tunnel, often endured harassment, and which has been distrusted by sections of the Indian establishment, is consequently simmering with deep discontent and angst. And yet these young men and women are not at an age where they can introspect and take a long-term of view of matters."

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Dipanker » 15 Mar 2011 18:02

menon s wrote:What if they are beset with fear. Fear of Army, fear of police, fear of Militants! We are not talking about normal people. We are talking about people who are living under threat from everyone, ever since they were children. I was reading about a Kashmiri girl who had come to Delhi on Diwali. when the crackers exploded (of course she has seen no Diwali in her lifetime) , she felt that a shoot out was in progress.That fear is what that corrodes the psyche.

im quoting from Amitabh matto article on stone throwers.

"...this radicalization has been caused by multiple factors, but above all by a sense of hopelessness. This is a generation that has seen suffering, killings, political uncertainty, and has had to remain sequestered in their homes for great lengths of time. A generation that has witnessed often a daily tragedy, seen no light at the end of tunnel, often endured harassment, and which has been distrusted by sections of the Indian establishment, is consequently simmering with deep discontent and angst. And yet these young men and women are not at an age where they can introspect and take a long-term of view of matters."



For this they can only blame themselves. They started the violence and terror, there is always a blowback.

You can't just go on stone petlting rampage and not expect some crowed control measure taken against it you. It will happen anywhere.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby JE Menon » 15 Mar 2011 18:09

menon s,

The matter is not as complicated as it may seem. The situation in J&K is not conducive to peace and quiet. The lack of peace and quiet is not the result of the army being there. The army is there because some Kashmiris want to separate from the country and be "independent" or join Pakistan, and because they are using violence to achieve that end, with the support of Pakistan and others. The rest of India does not want a further partition, and will not tolerate violence being applied to achieve it. Therefore the army is there.

When the violence stops and is observed to stop for a reasonable period of time, the army will reduce its presence to the extent needed to guard the frontiers. Then the separatist Muslims of J&K (and it is only the Muslims who want that, not the Buddhists, Hindus or Christians) can join the political process, and contest for elections like anybody else.

The Muslim Kashmiris who want to separate from India have bought into the idea that they can separate through the application of violence. They are being taught that it is not possible.

The fear, and the daily difficulties, associated with that lesson is a consequence not of the army action but of the fact that the separatist Muslim Kashmiris, who may not be a majority of Muslim Kashmiris, have chosen the path of violence to achieve their objective. That is the cause. Army action is the result of that. The Indian Army is is not oppressing Kashmiris because it is fun to do so. They would not be there if there was no violence and terrorism there in the name of Allah, just as they are not there in Bangalore, Kerala (although Kerala likes to call itself God's Own Country).

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Sachin » 15 Mar 2011 18:10

Dipanker wrote:For this they can only blame themselves. They started the violence and terror, there is always a blowback.

+1. And also note that there was a time when Kashmir was pretty peaceful. These people got uppity and took to the path of terrorism,arson and violence first. Naturally no sensible nation would tolerate this for quite some time. My only hope is that some one does not come up with a fantastic theory ! That the Army, police etc. should now pretty much stay put when the Kashmiris get another chance to indulge in their favourite game. You know there would be folks who would say that after some time the non-resisting security forces would convince the Kashmiris that they (the forces) are a peaceful lot. Perhaps then the Kashmiri girl can come to Delhi, and burst a few crackers in Diwali without any fear :).

Confidence building measure has to be a two way street. And generally it is the wrong doer who needs to show the change first. It is just like a case of a rapist or dacoit needs to show some proof that, they would not be back to their old dirty tricks. And we generally do not expect, the rest of the society to take them back in hoping that they have changed over new leaves.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Hari Seldon » 15 Mar 2011 18:38

^^^ Thanks for the extremely reasoned and well argued articulation of the country's principled position and response, JEM saab and Sachin saar.

Where's the 'hats off' icon when you need one?!?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby BijuShet » 15 Mar 2011 18:52

Menon s'ji can you indulge me and elaborate on what it is that you want to happen in J&K. A small bullet point list of things that you feel should change would help us understand your point of view (pov). We all want an end to violence in J&K but you are asking the victim (GoI and its citizens) to first stop defending itself. That is where most of us diverge from your pov. A small wishlist of changes from you will help us all better understand the path forward as you see fit. TIA.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby JE Menon » 15 Mar 2011 18:54

Indeed, India has nothing to be defensive about with regard to J&K, and we are not. I keep bringing back the comment made by some US official that India opposes even the mention of the word "Kashmir" in any discussions. They know that our position is rock solid. They also know that it is very much in synchrony with their own national value system. There is no country other than the US which can even seriously think of "pressuring" us on J&K. And happenings in the wider Middle East since the early 1990s, and in the AfPak area since the early 2000s, only serve to vindicate our position. On the other hand, our growing economic/geo-political/military strength lends little room for any traction on the issue on the part of outside players.

Consider this: what would be the starting point of any country wishing to discuss J&K with us? what would be their end-objective? how would they articulate it? J&K is not something any country, including the US, will want to get into a discussion with us about. A dozen smiling reasonable guys from BRF alone will send these buggers packing. Do you really think they stand a chance with our MEA guys who do this for a living?

Please, dudes, we need to get a bit humble here :)

From what the chaiwallas tell me, nobody wants to bother about the issue. Key outside powers just don't feel comfortable to be in a position where they are left "wringing their hands in silence" in case violence heats up due to our evil cousins on the western border. But that is largely what they are obliged to do. We are not keen on the violence either. And BTW, the Chinese have actually helped our case even further by acting like idiots on the issue. Our case is harmed, if at all, more by our own idiollectuals who keep coming up with emotional rhetorical positions rather than practical propositions...

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby brihaspati » 15 Mar 2011 19:05

Lets get some issues very very clear.

It is curious that there is always the demand for more "autonomy" for the Valley, without specifying in what respects the existing framework of framing laws, imposing taxes, and local self-governance enjoyed by states of India is insufficient for the desired "Valley autonomy". All Mattos, Kaks, Geelanis, or "interlocutors" never really specify, term by tem, item by item - exactly what is the difference between what is enjoyed by any other state in India and what the desired elements of autonomy are required to be.

I would request Menon S janab to start doing this concrete comparison, and not simply quote opinion pieces about the urgent need to satisfy "autonomy" demand. I can give you a starting pointer, look at the persistent attempts which led to a formal imposition of Sharia law [not yet in criminal jurisprudence] in the state of J&K. Or the attempts to debar Kashmiri women from marrying non-Kashmiri men while keeping the right for men. The systematic destruction of state sponsored primary educational centres while leaving the madrassahs intact.

When Menon S janab talks about an entire generation having grown up seeing only "big bad India", he never speaks of how and why the generation has only come up under madrassah education in most places, and what did the Kashmiri Muslims do about this whole process.

No militancy can be sustained for long unless there is some degree of popular support or at least support by influential segments of the society concerned. Why were Menon S janab's Kashmir youth only frightened by India and not by militants? Well suppose they were frightened by both, but why are they then only angry at India and not at the militants? If both India and Pakistan have been rough on them by sponsoring respective groups executing armed violence - why is not there an equal anger on Pakistan?

If the majority of Kashmiri Muslims are against Jihadi violence why do dont we ever see any mass mobilization against the Jihadis, Pakistani jihadis whereas we see it often against Indian elements?

Autonomy demands for Kashmir Valley is about creating a separate Islamic state ruled by Sharia where Islam dominates and rules all aspects of people's lives, with fusion of state and theocracy. This overlaps with the minimal targets of Slumabad, and hence is mutually encouraged by Kashmir Valley Muslim leadership/mullahcracy and Slumabad Pakjabi leadership.

Just because someone holds the surname of a Mattoo or Kak does not necessarily imply that he/she does not in some sense identify with the underlying cause of Islamist demands. This could come out of a self-delusion that what they are espousing is not about Islamic exclusivism. Or it could be a deliberate deception because they know that otherwise they would be penalized in the circles they move about. Whenever you see an obvious avoidance of the contribution of deliberate and long term Islamic theocratic planning in the J&K shenanigans, it comes out of a kind of intellectual dishonesty and opportunism - where careers are more important than integrity.

Those who find Indian culture to be "Hindu" and hence impossible to live "under" unless they can impose their own totalitarian religious systems on all and sundry and place themselves at supreme power over the rashtra should leave India and go to the lands they see as pure and with which they identify culturally. Those who chant for Pakistan or raise Pakistani flags should be asked to leave for Pakistan.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby brihaspati » 15 Mar 2011 19:14

American Islamist clerics and many of the so-called voices of Islam in the west are now loudly trying to shout that Islam requires Muslims to live under the law of the "land". If Islamics in Kashmir fail to live under the law of the land of "India that is Bharat", deny non-Muslim claim on that land too culturally and historically, it is their problem. They should actually thank the GOI for a large part of the history of the Republic for havinga ctually protected them from non-Muslim backlash for what they have actually committe don the ground. New Delhi protected their Islamism and excluded non-Muslims from having any claims on that land and space. This is why we have the Kashmir Valley problem. The sooner the rest of teh country realizes this the better.

If Kashmiri Muslims try something funny with the help of subversives within the political spectrum in India, and with outside support, their supporters should keep this in mind - a future India will reverse such funny episodes. No "solution" that excludes the non-Muslim India from the valley will be a permanent solution. This should serve as a fair warning.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby menon s » 15 Mar 2011 19:19

BijuShet wrote:Menon s'ji can you indulge me and elaborate on what it is that you want to happen in J&K. A small bullet point list of things that you feel should change would help us understand your point of view (pov). We all want an end to violence in J&K but you are asking the victim (GoI and its citizens) to first stop defending itself. That is where most of us diverge from your pov. A small wishlist of changes from you will help us all better understand the path forward as you see fit. TIA.


First let me thank you,
1. There is a historical narrative that goes in kashmir, which says, we were never let to rule our land, by ourselves. it was mughals, then the the afghans, then the Dogras, and now we Indians......, now the narrative is bitter when it comes to Dogras , " Kashmir usurped for 75 lacs, by a Hindu ruler sort of thing" . Yes i really would agree that we gave them chances and they lost chances... but there has been missives from our side also, like election frauds and things like that.

Now if thats what that is effecting them, so badly, then lets give them, the Autonomous J and K Region. Of course the defense, foreign policy etc etc will remain with us. My question is not to upset anybody, but actively discuss why? thats not possible. Im not alone, but there are scores of people, who are thinking, about facing, the "summer of Discontent" year after year.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby JwalaMukhi » 15 Mar 2011 19:35

^Drug addiction and delinquent behaviours cannot be encouraged, because a drug addict feels "summer of discontent". The only best solution is to isolate and provide treatment.
If left untreated or not confined to quarantine, such behviours would be spread across by the delinquents. It is more important to place the welfare and well being of a whole nation, than a bunch of rage boys indulging in delinquency.
Last edited by JwalaMukhi on 15 Mar 2011 19:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Virupaksha » 15 Mar 2011 19:35

Now if thats what that is effecting them, so badly, then lets give them, the Autonomous J and K Region. Of course the defense, foreign policy etc etc will remain with us. My question is not to upset anybody, but actively discuss why? thats not possible. Im not alone, but there are scores of people, who are thinking, about facing, the "summer of Discontent" year after year.

What else is different until 1990. Until the militancy came up, the army was at the borders, which is defence.

and yes defence includes that law and order, normally which is a state subject, do not go down beyond a certain point. The law and order went down so bad that law and order is right now a defence issue.

What else is there in autonomy?? Sharia ofcourse..........

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby munna » 15 Mar 2011 19:39

menon s wrote:Now if thats what that is effecting them, so badly, then lets give them, the Autonomous J and K Region. Of course the defense, foreign policy etc etc will remain with us. My question is not to upset anybody, but actively discuss why? thats not possible. Im not alone, but there are scores of people, who are thinking, about facing, the "summer of Discontent" year after year.


Now let me thank you for bringing the nefarious valley extremist agenda out in simple words. Jammu has culturally and historically been closer to Punjab than Kashmir Valley. This region is the stronghold of Dogras, Saraswat Pandits and Gujjar/Bakkarwals. They have nothing and let me repeat nothing to do with valley and its thought process or polity. This administrative union was brought about by Dogra rulers and other previous monarchs. What makes the valley extremists believe they have any right to lord over Jammu or Ladakkh? If autonomy is the way then how about trifurcating the state? How about rebalancing the Vidhan Sabha that till day refuses to acknowledge demographics of 3 regions? Kashmir sentiment has no monopoly over speaking rights for entire state of J&K so why this misplaced or dare I say selective emphasis.

The soft sell of Valley's religious fascist factions via "Summer of Discontent" will be met by bigger "Mobilization Sentiment" whose trailer got some parties in a twist. Remember one thing me amigo, do not reduce policy making and policy debates to mob mobilization contest, you shall lose before you even think of beginning one. Do not try and spook India with hogwash tactic of "discontent" this is old hat and nothing but an evil machination of splittist reactionaries hell bent on promoting fascists forces out to destroy the Socialist Republic of India. :wink:

PS: The baseline of motivated agenda based people like me remains "J&K is ours entirely ours", now let us talk.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby JwalaMukhi » 15 Mar 2011 19:53

Well there is "All Seasons discontent" across India, because a bunch of rage boys have hijacked and causing untold misery and suffering to people of India. Let's address this all sesaons discontent before looking at summer discontent for rage boys in a small part of India.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby JE Menon » 15 Mar 2011 19:59

>>Now if thats what that is effecting them, so badly, then lets give them, the Autonomous J and K Region. Of course the defense, foreign policy etc etc will remain with us.

I don't follow. By your logic, why should defence, foreign policy, etc remain with us? Why not give them that too? It's a serious question. I'm trying to understand the way you have constructed the "Kashmir issue" in your mind.

You are right, there are many people who think like you. This does not mean, though, that they are correct in their assessment of the situation, and their formulation of the solution. I, for one, am really interested in the mental mechanics of it. Only by understanding that properly can we attempt to modulate it along the most objective frequency, so to speak.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Sachin » 15 Mar 2011 20:34

menon s wrote:There is a historical narrative that goes in kashmir, which says, we were never let to rule our land, by ourselves.

How many parts of India, have been exclusively ruled by the son's of the soil? The whole of South India was Madras Presidency, and before we had Kerala king doms repeatedly getting pommelled by forces from Mysore (Tipu, Hyder Ali) then the British etc. And upto 1990s surprisingly Kashmiri valley residents did not have this sort of thinking?

Now if thats what that is effecting them, so badly, then lets give them, the Autonomous J and K Region.

You need to define "autonomous" a little more. If I am not mistaken the states have too many privileges which the Indian Constituition allows them. We can check the aspects of "autonomy" which are not listed in that set of privileges. And then we can check, whether any state requires this sort of "autonomy".

So I request you to provide a list of topics in which J&K (I assume it is the Kashmiri valley folks who want more of this), requires "autonomy" :).

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby svinayak » 15 Mar 2011 20:42

menon s wrote:
First let me thank you,
1. There is a historical narrative that goes in kashmir, which says, we were never let to rule our land, by ourselves. it was mughals, then the the afghans, then the Dogras, and now we Indians......, now the narrative is bitter when it comes to Dogras , " Kashmir usurped for 75 lacs, by a Hindu ruler sort of thing" . Yes i really would agree that we gave them chances and they lost chances... but there has been missives from our side also, like election frauds and things like that.

Now if thats what that is effecting them, so badly, then lets give them, the Autonomous J and K Region. Of course the defense, foreign policy etc etc will remain with us.

With geo politics and with major powers in the region now the entire question is under scrutiny. India has a vital interest in the geo graphy of the entire Jammu and Kashmir. It is about the security of the entire nation of Indian state and India geo graphy

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Vikas » 15 Mar 2011 21:10

We are not talking about normal people. We are talking about people who are living under threat from everyone, ever since they were children.

Aha! You might as well be talking about a kid who spent all her life in a dirty shabby tent with no privacy or no sense of belonging because her parents were kicked out of their homeland by bloodthirsty wahabi "your oh so poor and insecure" people. How is that you didn't being that up even for == sake. Why the pain of a Kid in kashmir is more than the kid who was thrown out of Kashmir.

There is a historical narrative that goes in kashmir, which says, we were never let to rule our land, by ourselves. it was mughals, then the the afghans, then the Dogras, and now we Indians


Gawd! That is such a strawman's argument. If that is the real cause of khujli, then why are more verbose kind of KM's dying to go back into the lap of Pakistan. Why are they so keen to involve Pakistan in this whole debate. Ask Pakistan to F**K off and focus on talking to Indian Govt. We haven't seen many terrorist leaders talking about exclusive "Azadi". Have we now?
Now If KM's want to be ruled by one of their own (Not sure where to fit all the CM's of J&K till now), then People of Jammu and Ladakh and Kashmiri Pandits can raise the same demand. Lets be fair to all the groups. Why consider KM's takleef in more considerate manner.
Of course the defense, foreign policy etc etc will remain with us. My question is not to upset anybody, but actively discuss why? thats not possible.

Do you know that till few decades back, you could not have entered J&K without permit to preach all the nice cute things and conduct your survey's. Is that what you are asking for?
Menon anna, what is that which KM's want as part of autonomy that is real and concrete. I mean A state can't have their own foreign policy, can it ? What else..Financially they hardly generate anything, not even natural resources. Rest of Indian subsidizes their need for coal,Gas, Steel, oil , train ride, marbles etc. etc. So the buggers basically want GoI to pay for what these jokers can't afford.
I was reading about a Kashmiri girl who had come to Delhi on Diwali. when the crackers exploded (of course she has seen no Diwali in her lifetime) , she felt that a shoot out was in progress.

Lastly not doubting the story you have read, but this another of those "unborn Child taken out of womb during riots" kind of nonsense.
Is the writer saying that they don't burst crackers in kashmir during Idd..Seriously! That she had never heard of a cracker going off.
Last edited by Vikas on 16 Mar 2011 10:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Venkarl » 15 Mar 2011 21:31

menon s wrote:Now if thats what that is effecting them, so badly, then lets give them, the Autonomous J and K Region. Of course the defense, foreign policy etc etc will remain with us. My question is not to upset anybody, but actively discuss why? thats not possible. Im not alone, but there are scores of people, who are thinking, about facing, the "summer of Discontent" year after year.


Sir...first you give them autonomy...then what next? will this trigger any similar demands in other states?? what J&K is asking will effectively hit Federation of Indian System? It is not like T or G or V movement? even if Telangana or Gurkhaland or Vidarbha are formed...they are still a part of Indian Union...but J&K is a different completely...giving autonomy to J&K is like digging at "Indestructible Union with Destructible states" system of Indian Federation....sorry sir...we(if I can say so) do not subscribe to your idea...

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Re: J&K News and Discussion-2011

Postby Manny » 15 Mar 2011 23:50

So when is Kashmir held by Pakistan going to be liberated?


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