LCA News and Discussions

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disha
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby disha » 04 Feb 2011 21:48

shiv wrote:Well the SDRE YellSeeYay had a treat for me on the golf course this afternoon. I saw the whole display - takeoff and a steep climb with two rolls and a turn at the top of the climb, a tight turn putting it back in line with the runway for an inverted flight. I loved it. So far this is the best I have seen from the LCA.

The group playing with me (who misidentified a group of 4 Jags as MiG 21) all stooped to watch the display as I had done and one of them even said "awesome its dancing like a kite". I told them it is our own SDRE LCA.


:(( Can you get a cam corder for your golf caddy? Waiting for the day when LCA demonstrates knife-edge!

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Lalmohan » 04 Feb 2011 21:52

given the amount of time al hakimi is on BRF and the golf course, one wonders when he does any hakim-giri!?! :)

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SanjibGhosh » 04 Feb 2011 23:53

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ia/424149/
Five Tejas fighters to light up Aero India

India’s home-built Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is poised to grab a large share of the limelight at the five-day Aero India 2011 air show in Bangalore, beginning on February 9. For the first time ever, a formation of five Tejas fighters will roar past the spectators during the inaugural fly-past. And, jostling with the world’s premier fighters, two Tejas prototypes will perform aerobatics displays that the pilots describe as “well beyond anything that we have ever displayed before”.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby PratikDas » 04 Feb 2011 23:58

SanjibGhosh wrote:http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/five-tejas-fighters-to-lightaero-india/424149/
Five Tejas fighters to light up Aero India

...And, jostling with the world’s premier fighters, two Tejas prototypes will perform aerobatics displays that the pilots describe as “well beyond anything that we have ever displayed before”.

I wanted to say "YES" many times over, but I thought that might sound rude :mrgreen:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 05 Feb 2011 02:47

I guess only advanced production engineering setup (robots) is required to scale down cost projections for LCA. At the projected rate of 8 a/cs per year, there would be still issues in bringing the cost down since the numbers and time matters in reducing costs.

Now, I am not sure if these figures are based on current HAL capabilities or expected projections based on use of robotic assembly lines. Going by the needs again, they could add assembly lines, but need to justify expenditure here.

Increased investment costs in additional production setup, can only reap benefits after RoI, and we would need about 15-20 tejas per year after Mk2 FoC happens. It is going to be a struggle for HAL till then.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby babbupandey » 05 Feb 2011 05:05

I guess HAL should start building the capacity. It will serve two purposes:
a. HAL can show to IAF that they have the capacity and can start production as soon as they get the orders
b. once HAL has the capacity, then government would like to use that capacity else it will result in wastage - so it will give more incentive to government to "insource" rather than "outsource" :D

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 05 Feb 2011 06:25

Of all the assembly lines I have been to I have never seen robotic arms doing the work anywhere ... It doesn't make sense for a 20-40-60 per year line. Besides most of the work is internal to the plane (like wiring and stuff) and very labour intensive.

See this video for an example, and this is for planes which are not as intricate and space constrained.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OKmjqzrF5s&feature=fvwrel

They have just huge cranes which can take stuff from one place to another.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby babbupandey » 05 Feb 2011 06:40

I think he was talking about employing robots to build smaller components.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 05 Feb 2011 06:59

^^"he" meaning Benji Mammen, Manager, Tejas Production line? if not, then "have some business standards". :mrgreen:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby babbupandey » 05 Feb 2011 07:06

Yes - I meant Benji Mammen, referring to Shuklaji's article :D

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 05 Feb 2011 07:08

“By March 2012, the first four fighters from the Tejas production line will be handed over to the IAF”, promises Ashok Nayak, Chairman and Managing Director of HAL. “And from then onwards we will step up production to 8 fighters per year.”

This involves a radical change in the way that HAL builds aircraft. Benji Mammen, HAL’s manager for the Tejas production line, explains that each developmental Tejas incorporated multiple improvements, which meant that each aircraft was significantly different from its predecessor. Now, having obtained operational clearance, HAL would build a standardised fighter, using automated assembly line processes that would speed up the process, as well as improve precision and build quality.

“Take the LCA wing, which is attached to a metal framework with rivets and bolts,” explains Mammen. “So far, we marked and drilled by hand the 3,000-odd holes which are used to attach the wing. Now we will automate the whole process, perhaps through the use of robots.


yes indeed.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 05 Feb 2011 12:31

Generally the wing come prefabricated to the assembly line.

A typical assembly line gets the forward fuselage section, mid-fuselage section aft-fuselage section, tail assembly pre-frabicated. They are put together manually. Following this the internals are laid out (again by hand). So an assembly line can go only as fast as the any individual process in this pipeline.
The putting together things look like this:
Image
or like this
Image

Ofcourse the prefabrication of the wing has to keep pace with this pipeline demand speed. And a manually fabricated wing is not going to be fast enough.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby sum » 05 Feb 2011 13:09

For the first time ever, a formation of five Tejas fighters will roar past the spectators during the inaugural fly-past.

What about the 5 LCAs flypast on the other 4 days?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 05 Feb 2011 13:52

unlikely. iirc two tejas will do aerobatics each day , perhaps one in morning and the other in evening round. the other planes who came in pairs are expected to do same unless a glitch grounds them and forces the other to fly twice maybe.

there is a czech aerobatic team who has brought their a/c inside trailers. should be good these guys.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Sid » 05 Feb 2011 16:37

LCA Final and Structural assembly lines. This is the sight we all waited for so long

from http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/
Image

clicky for big image
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/TUzdK7SfzMI/AAAAAAAABaw/VVXPcnk1cJo/s1600/Tejas%2Bline1.jpg

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby sum » 05 Feb 2011 20:57

^^ Like the SDREs using the Tejas as a umbrella for their lunch break in the above pic :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 05 Feb 2011 21:03

typical weak yindus - cant even stand the hot sun like pakmards who'd be eating a roast goat skewered on a open air grill.

btw are those trailer boxes diesel generators to supply some portable APU power?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 05 Feb 2011 21:26

Sid wrote:LCA Final and Structural assembly lines. This is the sight we all waited for so long

from http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/
Image


The colour of the Assembly line is really nice , matches the background and Tejas in front of it.

Wonder why they have named the assembly structure as "LCA" and not "TEJAS" Final Assembly.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 06 Feb 2011 08:08

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1534 Test Flights successfully. (03-Feb-2011).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-193,PV3-258,LSP1-60,LSP2-162,PV5-22,LSP3-26,LSP4-29,LSP5-4)

LCA-Tejas has completed 1520 Test Flights successfully. (10-Jan-2011).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-192,PV3-255,LSP1-60,LSP2-160,PV5-22,LSP3-24,LSP4-25,LSP5-2)

Looks like they update website on Saturday.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shijo » 07 Feb 2011 13:44

http://in.finance.yahoo.com/news/Light- ... 79504.html

The LCA project was initiated in the mid-1980s to replace the ageing MiG-21s. At the same time there were two other countries that took equally important decisions on their own aircraft programmes. In Canada, Bombardier acquired Canadair and decided to go full time into commercial aircraft manufacturing. While in Brazil, the government-run Embraer decided to design and manufacture the first Brazilian commercial liner.

A bit of net surfing tell me that a 90-seater Bombardier CRJ jet or a 90-seater Embraer E-jet costs the same as a Tejas!

Two countries consciously decided to establish their names by flying millions of people across the world.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
look at the bolded part, wht can we call him :evil: :evil: :evil: ?????

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Lalmohan » 07 Feb 2011 14:04

does anyone know if the wingbox/fuselage unit in tejas is a single machined piece or a rivet and weld structure?

re production, whilst robotics - maybe they mean CNC machines also, could be useful for some stages, it seems to me that the rate limiting factor is the availability of skilled labour for final assembly/integration and quality assurance

one assumes that the tiered supplier base has had enough time to spool up, but again - cannot be certain that all components are coming in on time at the right quality

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby P Chitkara » 07 Feb 2011 15:00

Has anyone seen any picture of the final config cockpit LCA cockpit or that of PV5; or, is it known what kind of changes were done to it?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 07 Feb 2011 19:36

Austin wrote:Wonder why they have named the assembly structure as "LCA" and not "TEJAS" Final Assembly.

:twisted:
I wondered about it too. And this doesn't sound very good.

Another possible re-naming around the corner?

Our netajis rename roads every time the party in power changes, how difficult would it be to change the name of an aircraft program?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Vipul » 07 Feb 2011 20:16

Tejas to soar high at AeroIndia 2011.

BANGALORE: Almost three decades after it was conceived and after running up a staggering 3,000 per cent cost escalation, India's indigenously developed fighter will Wednesday for the first time be seen in its true role of a combat jet at the AeroIndia international air show on the outskirts of this aerospace hub.

The Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) has been on view at two previous editions of the biennial trade exposition but either on the ground or as part of a sedate flypast.

"This will be the first time when a fleet of Tejas', including a trainer variant and a naval variant, will be seen in a flying display at the AeroIndia 2011 to showcase its potent strike force," P.S. Subramanyam, direcctor of the state-run Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), told IANS.

ADA, an arm of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has developed the jet, billed as the world's smallest fighter, which has been built by state-owned aerospace major Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Some 10 Tejas' will be on display during the Feb 9-13 show.

Conceived in the mid-1980s as a replacement for ageing Soviet-era MiG-21 fleet of the Indian Air Force (IAF), the real funding for the ambitious LCA programme came in 1993 with the government granting Rs.2.28 billion ($50 million). Till now, Rs.67 billion ($1.5 billion) has been spent on the project.

On the plus side, Tejas received the IAF's initial operational clearance Jan 10, which means it is now ready for induction in the fleet. The first Tejas squadron - 20 aircraft) is expected to be formed by 2014 after the aircraft is fully certified and secures the final operational clearance over the next two years.

At Rs.1.9 billion ($42 million) per aircraft, the first squadron will cost about Rs.38 billion ($836 million), while the second squadron at Rs.2.10 billion ($46 million) each is projected to cost Rs.42 billion ($924 million).

The IAF plans to induct about 200 Tejas aircraft over the years and increase its squadron strength to 39-40 along with 220 of the Russia .-made Sukhoi-30MKI, another 126-194 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) and the fifth generation fighter aircraft that is being jointly developed with Russia.

Tejas is powered by the General Electric (GE) F404-GE-IN20 engine as the homegrown Kaveri powerplant is still undergoing advanced trials. Barring the GE engine and sensitive items such as sensors and high-end components, the entire aircraft, including the glass cockpit, avionics and sub-systems is 65 per cent indigenous, with the figure likely to go up by 15 per cent.

"We plan to use the F404 engines to power the first 20 aircraft the IAF has ordered and the enhanced GE-414 engines for the second order of 20 aircraft, which will be the Mark-2 version, while Kaveri will be used for the trainer and naval variants and the air force variant when they are upgraded a decade later," Subramanyam pointed out.

The aircraft is also capable of carrying assorted weapon load and drop tanks up to four tonnes and on eight hard points.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby sivab » 07 Feb 2011 20:50

Vipul wrote:Tejas to soar high at AeroIndia 2011.

"We plan to use the F404 engines to power the first 20 aircraft the IAF has ordered and the enhanced GE-414 engines for the second order of 20 aircraft, which will be the Mark-2 version, while Kaveri will be used for the trainer and naval variants and the air force variant when they are upgraded a decade later," Subramanyam pointed out.

:?: :eek: :shock:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby nachiket » 07 Feb 2011 20:55

sivab wrote:
Vipul wrote:Tejas to soar high at AeroIndia 2011.

"We plan to use the F404 engines to power the first 20 aircraft the IAF has ordered and the enhanced GE-414 engines for the second order of 20 aircraft, which will be the Mark-2 version, while Kaveri will be used for the trainer and naval variants and the air force variant when they are upgraded a decade later," Subramanyam pointed out.

:?: :eek: :shock:

So there's no Naval Mk2 on the cards?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby sumshyam » 07 Feb 2011 20:56


Surya
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Surya » 07 Feb 2011 21:31

The author is CEO, Saffron Brand Consultants.
he might want to spend more and make his website look a tad more readable

:)

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Sidhu » 07 Feb 2011 21:42

Marking my first post with a newbie question.

Do the flights related to demo of the aircraft count as test flights or are test flights reserved to refer to flights where "testing of specific points" are concerned ??

It was heart warming to see 4 LCAs in formation today. Truely a jingo's delight
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 07 Feb 2011 21:46

nachiket wrote:So there's no Naval Mk2 on the cards?

the navy will have only Mk2 and no Mk1. only its trainers would be powered by F404. whether kaveri will power the Mk2 or not is a separate question.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Surya » 07 Feb 2011 22:20

does anyone have hours for IJT testing??

maybe it needs it own thread else gets drowned by LCA and heaven forbid the MRCA

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Gurneesh » 07 Feb 2011 22:40

Vipul wrote:Tejas to soar high at AeroIndia 2011.

"This will be the first time when a fleet of Tejas', including a trainer variant and a naval variant, will be seen in a flying display at the AeroIndia 2011 to showcase its potent strike force," P.S. Subramanyam, direcctor of the state-run Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), told IANS.

"We plan to use the F404 engines to power the first 20 aircraft the IAF has ordered and the enhanced GE-414 engines for the second order of 20 aircraft, which will be the Mark-2 version, while Kaveri will be used for the trainer and naval variants and the air force variant when they are upgraded a decade later," Subramanyam pointed out.


So we will see the first flight of naval LCA... nice..

Kaveri appears to be less powerful than 404 as of now and will be less powerful compared to 414 in it's mk-2 avatar. So, while it can be used in a trainer, dunno how well will the navy receive the Kaveri Powered LCA when the 414 powered mk-2 is what has pleased the AF (only just) as Navy LCA would have higher thrust requirements (plus more weight).

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby sivab » 07 Feb 2011 23:14

^^^ He is talking about snecma kaveri not current one.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby narmad » 07 Feb 2011 23:50

The Navy seems to want the MK2.
May be the Navy has the same misgivings about the Tejas MK1, its just that they don't go on and air it to the public.
They did reject the Naval ALH for valid reasons, but they did not make a huge hue and cry about it.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Gurneesh » 07 Feb 2011 23:56

@ sivab Snecma Kaveri will produce around 90 kN. 414 produces around 98 kN and the one offered for LCA is said to be the most powerful 414 version (might as well be an EPE). So, LCA navy might actually have to make do with 8 kN less thrust while being heavier than the AF version.

Current Kaveri poduces 75 kN as compared to 85 kN produced by the 404.

There was an article some time back wherein the Navy Chief mentioned that LCA is not exactly what they want but they will support it as it is indigenous.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Cain Marko » 08 Feb 2011 03:08

We plan to use the F404 engines to power the first 20 aircraft the IAF has ordered and the enhanced GE-414 engines for the second order of 20 aircraft, which will be the Mark-2 version,


INteresting, I wonder if this is what has caused the delay in penning the second order of the initial 40. So from the looks of it, the IAF gets only 20 LCA mk1 -GE F404 IN20 (85kn) powered. The remaining will all be 414s. Thing is what do they intend to do with the additional IN20 engines? They were originally supposed to power the second batch of 20 a/c.

In effect this would mean that a total of only about 120 Tejas (mk1 & 2) will be produced. I think this could be a move to undermine and relegate the Tejas to a nominal number. Otoh, look at the orders estimated for the Pakfa and MKI - both around 250-300! I would not be surprised if the MRCA far outnumbers the Tejas in the IAF.

Backwards thinking if true imho. Shouldn't it be the other way around? The force structure seems to be increasingly topheavy. World over (and not too long ago, in the IAF as well) the light fighters make up numbers, while the twin engined heavies are the spearhead. The current procurement plan seems entirely opposite of this logic.

They need a cheap bird to be the backbone of the fleet, the LCA seems ideal. However, perhaps the engines being American means that the IAF would rather not take chances. Conversely, if the AF is comfortable with the US components, expect twice the number of Gripens vis a vis the Tejas. No matter which way we look at it, as of now the LCA seems buggered! :evil: I hope the AMCA manages better - homemade engines are a must.

JMT of course.

CM>
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 08 Feb 2011 03:25

^^^ Wouldn't worry so much with a TOI report on Tejas.

They say that the order for the new engines has been placed last year in the same report, which we know is clearly not true.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby srai » 08 Feb 2011 03:28

Cain Marko wrote:
We plan to use the F404 engines to power the first 20 aircraft the IAF has ordered and the enhanced GE-414 engines for the second order of 20 aircraft, which will be the Mark-2 version,


INteresting, I wonder if this is what has caused the delay in penning the second order of the initial 40. So from the looks of it, the IAF gets only 20 LCA mk1 -GE F404 IN20 (85kn) powered. The remaining will all be 414s. Thing is what do they intend to do with the additional IN20 engines? They were originally supposed to power the second batch of 20 a/c.

CM>


DDM.


This is the correct order:

  • 20+20 (including 8 trainer versions) LCA Mk.1 w/ GE F-404 IN20 (2 squadrons between 2011 - 2015 @ 8 per year production rate)
  • 80 to 100 LCA Mk.2 w/ GE F-414 (5 squadrons post 2015)

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Cain Marko » 08 Feb 2011 03:41

indranilroy wrote:^^^ Wouldn't worry so much with a TOI report on Tejas.

They say that the order for the new engines has been placed last year in the same report, which we know is clearly not true.


It is not? I thought the engine deal went with GE last year in October. Also remember, the above is a direct quote from PS, not DDM spin/edit. The man is being quoted - verbatim.

srai wrote:DDM.

Refer above.

20+20 (including 8 trainer versions) LCA Mk.1 w/ GE F-404 IN20 (2 squadrons between 2011 - 2015 @ 8 per year production rate)
80 to 100 LCA Mk.2 w/ GE F-414 (5 squadrons post 2015)

As of now the second 20 order has not materialized/inked. They have been talking about a 20 + 20 for ages, and for sure the first 20 was ordered waay back (2005?). The second 20 though is nowhere to be seen. As it currently stands, HAL has orders for only 28 LCA. Or did I miss something? When did the IAF sign for the second Tejas MK1 (GE IN20) order?

CM

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby srai » 08 Feb 2011 04:00

Cain Marko wrote:
indranilroy wrote:^^^ Wouldn't worry so much with a TOI report on Tejas.

They say that the order for the new engines has been placed last year in the same report, which we know is clearly not true.


It is not? I thought the engine deal went with GE last year in October. Also remember, the above is a direct quote from PS, not DDM spin/edit. The man is being quoted - verbatim.

srai wrote:DDM.

Refer above.

20+20 (including 8 trainer versions) LCA Mk.1 w/ GE F-404 IN20 (2 squadrons between 2011 - 2015 @ 8 per year production rate)
80 to 100 LCA Mk.2 w/ GE F-414 (5 squadrons post 2015)

As of now the second 20 order has not materialized/inked. They have been talking about a 20 + 20 for ages, and for sure the first 20 was ordered waay back (2005?). The second 20 though is nowhere to be seen. As it currently stands, HAL has orders for only 28 LCA. Or did I miss something? When did the IAF sign for the second Tejas MK1 (GE IN20) order?

CM


If that's the case, then there will be 5 years of idle production time between LCA Mk.1 and Mk.2 version. Mk.2 version is going to make its maiden flight in 2014 with IOC happening around 2017. As we have seen with IAF and HAL practice, they don't start manufacture of the type until IOC is achieved (because prototype configurations change a lot). This means @ 8 aircraft per year current capacity, HAL will have delivered the 20 LCA Mk.1 version by early 2013. So between 2013 to 2017, HAL LCA facilities will lie idle (with only a handful of Mk.2 prototypes being built during that span).


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